The Jewish people

Are the Jews the villains of the plot as many believe or not, throughtout history they have been persecuted and expelled from one country after another. Are they victims of their own sucess, their smart business people involved in world wide banking etc. but is that the reason why they are persecuted.

Why are they deemed "special", why does the Talmud say they are the chosen ones and we the gentiles are lower than the beast of the field and should be treated as such.

Why does the ADL seek to control those who speak out against the Jeweish people, why is the Holocaust such a sacred cow that cannot be in some countries not even discussed, why is it that this group of people can be treated completely different than any other race. The Red Indian was almost exterminated by the White Man, the Spanish decimated the South American Tribes, history is replete with such events all of which can be talked about openly but not the Holocaust, Why.

Why is it that the Nation of Israel can carry out acts of Genocide, supported by the US/UK I may add, yet we wage war against Despots like Saddam etc. What is so unique about Israel and the Jewish people that they can virtually do what they like and are answerable to no one.

The fact that Israel could initiate a nuclear exchage in the ME and possibly a wider conflict does not seem to be a problem for the Western Goverments but it is if Iran, N. Korea etc. have them, again Why. The Israeli's have said they would use these weapons to protect themselves so why cannot Iran have them to protect themselves against the Israeli's, US/UK. Why is the US and even individual Americans giving Israel free money every year.

And why dose anyone who wants to talk about the jewish people called anti semite, is that just used to shut people up are the Jewish people hiding something that they dont want to share with the rest of us.

Originally posted by magicmushroom

The Red Indian was almost exterminated by the White Man, the Spanish decimated the South American Tribes, history is replete with such events all of which can be talked about openly but not the Holocaust, Why.

Because remarkably there are no conferences behind held to call the slaughter of Native Americans "fictional" even though that happened hundreds of years ago, whereas conferences are being held to call the Holocaust fictional even while there are still people alive who experienced it. Fair?

Why is the US and even individual Americans giving Israel free money every year.

I think the "free money" you're referring to is called Foreign Aid and it goes to a lot more places than just Israel. Research this please before making such odd statements.

And why dose anyone who wants to talk about the jewish people called anti semite, is that just used to shut people up

And look at that, I just discussed them without calling you an anti-semite.

are the Jewish people hiding something that they dont want to share with the rest of us.

As soon as you figure it out, let them know, because I doubt they know what it is either.

Originally posted by Djarums

Originally posted by magicmushroom

Why is the US and even individual Americans giving Israel free money every year.

I think the "free money" you're referring to is called Foreign Aid and it goes to a lot more places than just Israel. Research this please before making such odd statements.

Foreign Aid....thats funny. While it is foreign its should hardly be considered aid. israel, which receives 1/3 of the total US foreign aid, ranks as the 16th wealthiest nation on the planet. What more could they possibly need ?? It's obvious there's an agenda when that type of money is given to a country that really doesn't seem to need financial assistance. israel is just another country with absolutely no special significance, but that's hardly the reality. I question a lot of israel's methods amongst friends and others only to be seen as some type of bigot. It's pathetic these people have been placed on some higher moral ground and even more putrid that the public has been brainwashed to accept this.

www.palestinemonitor.org...

brill

[edit on 24-12-2006 by brill]

Hi Dj The US does give money to Israel does it not and I know they give aid to others but I,m not debating America's aid policy.

And mentioning the term anti semite that is a term that people do use is it not, I'm asking a question why do people use that term is it just used to shut people up or do they believe people are just racist when discussing the Jewish people.

Its interesting how you did not mention the millions of Russians who are alive today after what the Nazis did to them, there are plenty of people today who have survived atempts at their genocide but one hears little of them.

True there are those that deny the Holocaust but the point is why cannot it be discussed.

Why did you not give an answer to all the questions I asked.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
What is so unique about Israel and the Jewish people that they can virtually do what they like and are answerable to no one.

I'd like to make a comment in support of the original poster concerning their claims that Israel and the Jewish people are seemingly treated as unique and appear to answer to no one.

All countries that have nuclear weapons belong to an organization and "list" of countries that have nuclear capability throught the United Nations. All countries that have nuclear weapons that is, except Israel. For some reason Israel has nuclear capability, but are not listed as a nuclear country. It seems the only criteria for being on the list is having nuclear weapons, which Israel has, but is apparently exempt from having to have a belonging to that nuclear group.

I don't have enough information on the subject of "why" this is the way it is, so i can't say either way whether i agree with it or not, but it does not seem to be fair, nor consistant with the way all other countries must play by different rules.

Thank you Brill & ET at least you have the gonads to comment on this tread. I find it very strange indeed that their are those who will talk of turning the ME to glass and lets nuke the Muslims, all rascist and ignorant comments I may add, yet most cannot pass any comment on the topic of this thread.

Again absense of comment does indicate a line of thought on ATS does it not.

Well this has always caused the jews problems. Proclaiming themselves "God's chosen people" and using that as an excuse to put their ambitions above the needs of others. This phenomenon is not soley isolated to jews either. The big 3 religions each consider themselves the "chosen people" for various reasons.

What they all loose sight of is the fact that God created everyone at the same time. True, he has used various groups to fulfill certain purposes at times, but this hardly indicates favoritism. In fact, God can be rather tough on those he sets forth to fulfill a purpose. Look at the jews, their nation was destroyed and their people scattered for thousands of years.
Yet God has always been forgiving and genorous.

Regarding the Jewish people. I dont consider them anymore important than other peoples. I have noticed the so called "Special Relationship" we seem to have with this nation. I am not impressed with this.

I will however tell you that it is not quite what it seems or you think it means.

I agree with some of the other posters in that we give moneys to other nations as well as Israel. Did we not recently give Billions to the rebuilding and operations in Iraq and follow this with more billions and are asking for more billions from our Congress. Think this through carefully.
We also gave billions to the Soviets in the years when they had famine.
In short we have much of the world by way of aid on our nipples and dragging them around by the foreign aid breast. This is not new..it is leverage..also called Foreign Diplomacy.

I have to ask myself what you are thinking here??

I will also remind you that several times in the last ten years or more we have actually gotten the Israelis to reverse or modify their position. THeir position is much more precariouis than our government or the Israeli government is wont to let you know. They are hiding something from us here.

Regarding their Nuclear Weapons. Think carefully before you make statements about this. I also suggest you research the

"Sampson Complex"

I ask you this simple question ..no complicated routine required here. If the Muslim nations surrounding Israel had nuclear weapons...what do you think would happen in short order???

Mind you now..Israel has had them since the late 1960s. Think this through carefully.

Israel is not intrested in following the worlds dictates concerning Nuclear Weapons simply because it is nakedly obvious that this world does not have Israels intrests in mind. Simple as that. This should be more and more obvious as time goes by. It was obvious to me over 20 years ago and I am not pro Israeli.

I wouldnt trust the United Nations with anyones intrests but the intrests of the United Nations...and they are lousy at handling their own intrests. How educated do you have to be to figure this out?? The UN is a cesspool of corruption. THe stories of how the amdassadors and thier groups under diplomatic immunity..many of them.... conduct themselves in and around New York City are legend. This is a group which is going to handle the worlds problems...your kidding me?? Much less handle the problems of Israel.
I dont blame the Israelis for thier lack of confidence in the UN.
We dont need to be that stupid about American intrests too.

It is obvious to me that we control and pull the Israeli strings when needed. Have been doing so for some time now. It just appears that they have carte blanche to play through. It is not so. We threaten to cut the aid strings and they tow the line..just like other nations.
Watch for this carefully.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Hi Orange, Well for a start the US is not giving Billions to Iraq its robbing it of Billions, the US only gives aid to further its own interests.

It gave Russians aid as we got them to spend all their money on arms through the cold war years at the expense of their infostructure.

I'm not talking just about the Jewish people re current events but through their known history. So its ok for the Israelis to have nukes for their safety and to threaten the safety of others but the Arab States cannot have them.

Are you sure about America pulling the strings it seems to me to be the other way round, the US is frightened that the Israelis will initiate a nuke conflict and will do all they can to stop them. This usually means lots of free money to spend on arms and to prosecute a war of genocide against the Palistinian people.

Yes there position is very precarious and its highly likely that in any major conflict Israel would loose and its people would suffer. Which begs the question why resettle there in the first place, which also leads on to my original question, why have the Jews been persecuted throughout history are they victims or the villains?

Such a commotion about Israel having nukes... and no Islamic nations have any right? You have successfully done what India has wanted to do for years. Removed Pakistan from world history. Amazing.

Djarums there's no commotion re Israel having nukes its just one of several questions I asked which you did not answer fully. And just what proofs do you have that any Islamic nation if they had them would use them, none.

It really is rich when the West and mainly America interfere in the ME provide them with arms etc. then start bitching about oh their out to get us.
We interfere, we destabalise their countries and then wonder why they react like they do. Its simple stop sticking your nose in other peoples business and it wont get punched.

And as far as WMD's are concerned I dont want any country to have them especially the only country that has used them.

There is no evidence that Israel would use any nukes any more than there is evidence that any other nuclear power would use them.

As for you not wanting a country who's used them to have them, that of course is the US.

I don't know what you're talking about with expecting me to answer your questions... I'm simply trying to understand the purpose for drawing all these distinctions.

DJ its simply this, you know when through life you believe and understand certain things, accepted views etc. then new info comes along and you start to doubt that what you already knew, its abit like that.

Personally I think the amount of money given to Israel by the US is obscene, it makes me sick to pay for the new apartheid.

But anyway, in response to the original question.

Are the Jews the villains of the plot as many believe or not, throughtout history they have been persecuted and expelled from one country after another.

'The Jews' aren't anything but a demographic, comprised of individuals. In my opinion they have been singled out for persecution throughout the ages because some religious or overly-political Jews maintain a separate culture, separate laws, and separate values, that often conflict with those enshrined in their 'host' country.

It can be an insular culture, and very difficult to understand, with strange customs and laws. People who are different, and people who answer to a higher law than the law of the land, often face persecution at the hands of ignorant peasants and petty tyrants both.

It really wasn't any different for Christians before their dominion over Europe became a foregone conclusion.

Are they victims of their own sucess, their smart business people involved in world wide banking etc. but is that the reason why they are persecuted.

There are a number of examples throughout history where this has indeed been the case. Jewish merchants were tolerated for a long time in Europe, but when they gained too much influence and power in any one region, anti-Jewish sentiment rose up, seemingly out of nowhere. Sometimes it was the church authority seeding the mistrust and hatred, other times it was more of a nationalist sentiment behind the shift.

In any case, Jews have been all over the world for 1500+ years (nobody even knows when the first Jews arrived in Europe), and they were often grudgingly accepted until they challenged the power structures in place, at which point they became unwelcome.

Why are they deemed "special", why does the Talmud say they are the chosen ones and we the gentiles are lower than the beast of the field and should be treated as such.

The ancient books of various religions say a lot of things that are no longer applicable. Moderate religious people shrug off these historical relics, while extremists embrace them to justify horrible barbarism. Don't direct your anger at 'Jews' or the Talmud, direct your anger at the people who live their lives based off literal interpretations of ancient texts.

The Jews aren't better than everyone else, and most of them don't delude themselves into thinking that way. The few that do ought to be considered religious extremists, no different than the Muslim/Christian extremists who commit acts of violence with the support of their twisted ideologies.

Why does the ADL seek to control those who speak out against the Jeweish people, why is the Holocaust such a sacred cow that cannot be in some countries not even discussed, why is it that this group of people can be treated completely different than any other race.

I don't know why they do what they do, I suspect it's out of fear and a sense of entitlement, and a desire to prevent a neo-holocaust. Still, I agree it's wrong-headed and foolish to be so rabid about it.

Just because someone criticizes a Jew, or the nation of Israel, does not mean they're anti-Jew or a racist. Some Jews are bad people, just like some blacks, some Indians, some Americans are bad people, it's not a slur against the entire race to point that fact out.

I think the ADL ought to focus its attention against people who defame an entire race based on the actions of an individual, or a few people. That would be a noble cause.

The Red Indian was almost exterminated by the White Man, the Spanish decimated the South American Tribes, history is replete with such events all of which can be talked about openly but not the Holocaust, Why.

I don't know. You can talk about the Gypsy holocaust, you just can't talk about the Jewish holocaust. It's a nonsensical double standard, and it's always led me to believe there's something buried that isn't supposed to be found.

But what do I know, I'm just a mixed-blood, middle-class mongrel with an axe to grind...

Why is it that the Nation of Israel can carry out acts of Genocide, supported by the US/UK I may add, yet we wage war against Despots like Saddam etc. What is so unique about Israel and the Jewish people that they can virtually do what they like and are answerable to no one.

Have you ever been sick? Like, a cold, or the flu? You know how you can get away with a lot more after you've come down with something? I think it works the same way...

People think that because the Jews had such a tragedy befall them, that they might deserve a softer treatment, or might warrant kid gloves...

I disagree. I also don't think it's really relevant to talk about 'The Jews' as a single entity, because they're just not. I've known a number of Jewish individuals in my lifetime, and they are not one entity, one mind, one agenda. They are individuals and should be treated as such.

As far as the holocaust, I know it's a sensitive topic, but frankly I don't care. There were other victimized groups, none of which seem to demand the same special treatment. Then again, nobody (to my knowledge) has ever questioned the Gypsy death toll with the clear agenda of minimizing the horror of the event, or excusing the perpetrators, so it might be a more complicated issue than I make it out to be. There are a lot of racist scumbags in the world who would love to change history and pave the way for a new holocaust, so we have to be careful we don't allow free and open discussion to morph into revisionist history and hate-mongering.

As far as I'm concerned, it's all about intent. If the intent is to attack and discredit 'the Jews' we shouldn't tolerate such speech. If the intent is to objectively analyze the facts, we shouldn't be adverse to listening and learning, and the ADL can sit and spin if they don't like it.

So, screw the ADL, investigate and discuss the holocaust to your heart's content.

I realize I'm all over the place here, but that's precisely the point. These issues have to be taken on their individual merits. Just because someone supports Israel doesn't mean they should support barabarism and brutality by Israelis, and just because someone condemns Israel, doesn't mean they should hate all Jews or support the nutters who attack innocent people. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, except when the enemy of my enemy is also an enemy to decent people everywhere, yaknow?

And why dose anyone who wants to talk about the jewish people called anti semite, is that just used to shut people up are the Jewish people hiding something that they dont want to share with the rest of us.

There are a lot of seriously messed up people who want to blame the Jews for everything bad that has ever happened. Similarly, there are a lot of messed up people who think Jewish people can do no wrong. Neither group is thinking logically, and neither group can be trusted to act according to the facts in any given situation.

The rabid anti-anti-semites want to turn every issue involving a Jew or Israel into a debate about the entire race. It's stupid and pointless trying to argue with these people, because as far as they're concerned, Jews walk on water and can do no wrong. Because of the existence of the other group (who constantly seek to demonize Jews without cause), the 'defenders' see themselves as a necessary counter to the other extreme.

Some Jews are bad, some are good - fact. Sometimes Israel acts right, sometimes wrong - fact. It's not an all-or-nothing deal here, and I don't see how any logical person could think in those terms.

Israel is carrying out acts of genocide? When did that happen?

I agree with pretty much all of the above post, and to borrow an old saying "What makes a Jew?"
Is it really clear the makeup of a person just by looking?

Now here's a question for you:

A person can be anti-semitic, but can they also be anti-ashkenazy?

As to Israel using nukes.

I must disagree with you here. Most Americans dont know and the media and educational institutions will not teach that in the Yom Kippur War..of 1973 Israel was removing their nuclear weapons from their storage bunkers and preparing them for use. The Re arming of Israel by the USA twords a conventional war is what prevented thier use. This put the Israelis back on the offensive rather than the defensive and put an end to the Yom Kippur War.

Once again ..suggest some of you examine the "Sampson Complex."

For those of you who know any history or bible...the original doctrine of Israel before acquiring nuclear weapons was the "Masada Complex." In this scenerio the Jews would commit suicide as they did at the fortress of Masada rather than be taken by the Romans. Rather than be conquered by the Arabs they would do the same. No more Holocosts or as they themselves say .."Never Again." Hence the switch to the "Sampson Complex" where in the bible Sampson rather than remain captured or a slave to the Philistines chose to bring down the whole temple or building down upon himself and the PHilistines. This is primarily what the Israeli nuclear weapons are for. To take everyone with them rather than suffer another Holocaust. This is not widely told to the public. We are to remain ignoranat and dumb about this. How about those Redskinds Dude??? I believe they will carry this out. They are not bluffing here.

How do I know this...they have not used them to this date...yet they have had them. No question about this here.

Now once again...if the Muslims had them how long do you think it will be before they are used??? Think this through ..especially in the face of the more radical muslim factions. Mind you ..I do know that most muslims are not radical but just want to earn a living for themselves and thier familys. But who is in control in most of the muslim nations. Which religious leaders?? Think very carefully here.

I will also remind you folks that the original offer for a homeland for the Jews was through Cecil Rhodes was the nation of South Africa. The Jews turned it down prefering the olde land of Palestine.

As for destabilizing other countrys..Magicmushroom..the Romans were in this buisness thousands of years ago through various means ..including assasination, hijacking, blackmail..so too was the British Empire..even during one of the most Noble of world struggles..."The Opium Wars."
I will also remind you that it is obvious the Muslims are in this buisness too. Destabilization. YOu are going to see this take place in continental Europe and England soon. It is not difficult to forsee.

What I am telling you Magicmushroom and others..is that there are no good guys in this. NONE. Including the Jews. WE are all bad guys.

THanks,
Orangetom

And why dose anyone who wants to talk about the jewish people called anti semite, is that just used to shut people up are the Jewish people hiding something that they dont want to share with the rest of us.

I see several parts to this.

1) If people were to start to discuss the origins several questions would arise as to if they truly are who they say they are.

2) for some are not who they say they are.

3) Jewish is comprised of Jew and ish which means like something.

4) The biblical chosen are the children of Abraham which is not reserved for one race.

5) Fact number four makes the war non-sensical and

6) Their state was obtained on bogus principals.

7) Jimmy Carter (former President) has stated that Israel stole the land from Palestine (see his book "Palestine Peace Not Apartheid"). I have not read this yet, but, I heard some of his commentary on it.

Originally posted by Djarums
Such a commotion about Israel having nukes... and no Islamic nations have any right?

I think perhaps the point i was trying to make may have been misunderstood.

The arguement i was attempting to shed light upon did not originate with me. I was not referring to the fact that Israel having nuclear capability is viewed by me as a problem.

I was merely trying to express the point that the international laws and expectations towards all other countries with regards to nuclear capability, do not apply to Israel.

Official Organizations within the United Nations apply standards to all nuclear capable countries, of which Israel seeming has impunity from the same regulations applied to all other countries with nuclear capability, in comparison.

All other nations with nuclear capability do/have or are pursued aggressively by one of the following "groups", where as (*publicly it seems) Israel has not been required to:

All nuclear capable nations adhere to in one form or another to:
Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, International Atomic Energy Agency, or the U.N. Security Council. Where as it appears Israel has not been subjugated to the same standards as every other nuclear capable nation.

You can view information concerning this view on the following Links/Sources:

en.wikipedia.org...


htt p://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/49/Vanuunu-Article.jpg

Again, i do not neccesarily have a problem with Israel having nuclear weaponry. I would just like to point out that it is not visible that the same regulations apply to Israel as every other nuclear capable nation.

Originally posted by Siren

3) Jewish is comprised of Jew and ish which means like something.

I find this interesting for a number of reasons. Is this true, concerning what "Jew" and "ish" mean?

Does Jewish mean "like someting"?

thanks,
john