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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Originally posted by jsobecky
Either you were brought up to express yourself without using profanity or you weren't.
I was, but I put all that behind me. I love profanity. I am a potty mouth. And I'm fine with it. I don't shout it from the rooftops or cause traffic to stop, but what people call profanity is a part of my everyday vocabulary.
I find it hard to think of an instance that would cause me to use profanity in a mall. Because they were out of my size of Birkenstocks?
You don't wear Birks! And people who wear sneakers swear, too!
Originally posted by Rasobasi420
I don't know about you, but I've gotten mall security to back down with a stern voice, and proffesional tone, much like a barking dog.
Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Anyway, I don't have a problem with profanity. I use it extensively. But of course there's a time and a place for everything.
:
Doesn't it bother anybody else that there are so-called 'obscene' words? They're just words, they can't hurt you. What it boils down to is obscenity of thought, and controls on speech are just ways to control the public pronouncement of unpopular thoughts.
Furthermore, if something is obscene to someone, it's because they were trained by their parents to recognize it that way.
There's nothing inherently obscene about a collection of letters, or a sound made by the human vocal chords.
:
Point being, it ceases to become offensive if you're no longer offended by it, and then everyone wins, people can speak as they please, and you don't have to concern yourself so much.
Say what? I've been called plenty of nasty things in my lifetime, and not once did I suffer permanent damage. Maybe I'm superhuman? Nah...
More likely, some people are entirely too sensitive, and don't know how to avoid internalizing the hurtful comments made by others.
And that is your right, to use it extensively. Adults should realize that the use of profanity is due to either a desire to shock, or a very limited vocabulary. And use it accordingly.
Their parents, their grandparents, their teachers, etc. And what is wrong with that....?
You say everybody wins, I say society loses, because we've dumbed down our language to accomodate the least desirable expression of it.
Ahh, if only everyone were the same as you. If only everyone of us had the same life experiences, religion (or lack of it), race, ethnicity, and color of eyes. Then we could say with certainty that a particular person is too easily offended by something. It would make people so much easier to.... control.
Originally posted by WyrdeOne
On the contrary, curse words are not just useful to simpletons and anti-social types, a point illustrated by the fact that Shakespeare tells us brevity is the soul of wit, and if one can condense an entire string of words, ie: "oh no, I've gone and dropped this hammer on my foot, and now it hurts an awful lot", into one syllable ie:"crap" (by another name) - that's not profanity, that's poetry.
Are we really so primitive that we fear certain enunciations are going to invoke evil spirits or wither crops or induce seizures? Of course not; so the stigma is no longer justified and should be done away with by mutual agreement, IMO.
There's a difference between an insult and a randomly ejaculated profanity. The former is hurtful and leads to confrontations for obvious reasons, the latter poses no threat to anyone. Why should we harp on the latter? To reinforce the boundaries we've erected regarding the former?
You say everybody wins, I say society loses, because we've dumbed down our language to accomodate the least desirable expression of it.
:shk:
Why is it the least desirable? Why is it dumbing down the language?
So what's the point? Seriously, if you or anyone else, can explain to me why I ought to find these words bad like the rest of you, I'll be very appreciative. I want to understand, really I do.
Interesting diversionary tactic.
I thank God that everyone is not the same as me, because if that were the case, I'd never learn anything.
Do you have a response for the questions I've raised, or is it an all-sarcasm buffet on the menu this evening?
Have you got any logical reasoning behind your distaste for these words? Or does your aversion, and everyone else's, have more to do with the fact that you got punished for using them when you were a child?
pl. pro·fan·i·ties
The condition or quality of being profane.
Abusive, vulgar, or irreverent language.
The use of such language.
Source
I doubt very much that he equated an economy of words with an endorsement of profanity.
Some people find scatalogical references distasteful not because of evil spirits, but because they don't belong in polite conversation.
And who will decide the difference between a potty mouth and a racial insult?
Use a simple test, like would you use those words in front of your 3 yr old, or your granny. And I realize that I'll be hearing from people whose grandmother would make a sailor blush.
And how does profanity advance society?
I don't find them "bad". I find them distasteful.
When a stranger immediately curses in my company, I immediately peg him in a certain way.
And I wasn't being sarcastic at all.
Now you know how I was raised, eh? You really are superhuman!
I think it's time for me to walk away from this conversation until you cool down a bit.
Originally posted by jsobecky
You "put all that behind you?" Efforts to help you get along in polite society? I would never have thunk it, judging by your posts.
Adults should realize that the use of profanity is due to either a desire to shock, or a very limited vocabulary.
Lumping it in with thought control is a bit overreaching, don't you think?
And I didn't include profanity in my choice.
Originally posted by WyrdeOne
WHY is it impolite to say certain words in polite company?
...
I'm posting these examples in hopes that they will either spur you to provide a logical reason why we shouldn't curse, or accept that there simply isn't one. Honestly, I'd be happy with either outcome - I don't know if you believe that or not, but it's the truth. I take the site's motto pretty seriously in my own life, before I ever found this place. I desperately want to dispel my own ignorance whenever I can, so, the question remains, can you help me do that?
Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I dislike crude and thoughtless people as much as anyone (and more than most), but I think the way to change that is through education, not legislation.
Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I understand that people are offended by these words, I just don't think they have any logical reason to be - that's what I'm saying.
Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I also see a big difference between using curse words to attack someone, and using them in a general, un-targeted fashion to express emotion.
In my book, you're good people.
I believe in most instances the forbearance of profane usage offers a sign of one's willingness to engage in non-hostile social interaction. To some degree, it signals one's general intention. Granted, it is a construct no less manufactured than the use of the word "please", but it *does* serve a purpose.
And I agree, from an ideal perspective.
At this point, it's about a business on private property attempting to control what goes on within their boundaries. If the education option was working, either at home or at school, this wouldn't be necessary.
Have you ever been in a mall, maybe with your own children or your mom and heard some exchange where one teen is yelling to another one 100' away: "Hey you !@% get your $@!* back here before I @#$* Your $#*&". Then the other one screams back: "@#*& my @#$()^ you @*&*�!" And you're standing there with your kids or mom or whatever. Now I've been in that situation and done a little freelance "educating", but my preference would be to not be in a place where that was necessary.
Yes, there isn't much logic in a mere word being offensive. I agree. But it's the reality, whether it's logical or not.
I agree to a point, but the fallacy I see in this argument is why the "curse" word would be relevant, if you don't believe they should be considered offensive in and of themselves? I can verbally attack someone very proficiently without using a curse word. Why isn't the curse word irrelevant in this context, if they're not in and of themselves offensive? Are curse words magically imbued with more power if they're used to attack?
Thanks for the input.
Originally posted by WyrdeOne
This is just my observation, but it appears to me that in many, if not most cases, the media sets the snowball rolling, the parents pass up their chance to prevent the minor annoyance from becoming a serious problem, and then the groupthink mentality exacerbates the problem until it eventually collapses under its own weight, allowing new problems to arise.
Does that strike you as an apt observation/analogy?
Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I don't think we should control the media for the benefit of kids, when the parents are perfectly capable of restricting access and providing a countering influence (if they would only put in the massive amount of effort required to raise a good child).
Originally posted by WyrdeOne
So the best place to control the problem appears to be at home. What do you think?
Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Basically what I meant is that an insult is an insult with or without a curse word, and 'regular' words are regular words until they are used to assault someone, at which point it becomes a confrontation. Curse words, like regular words, are not necessarily combative, depending on the context.
Does this make sense, or did I misunderstand that point you were making?
Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I love a good discussion.
I believe in most instances the forbearance of profane usage offers a sign of one's willingness to engage in non-hostile social interaction.
Originally posted by WyrdeOne
jsobecky
I doubt very much that he equated an economy of words with an endorsement of profanity.
Doubt it if you like, but the fact remains, a single syllable of profanity can functionally replace whole sentences of exposition, effortlessly, elegantly.
Have you ever been hammering something, driving nails in, and you get that one nail that gets bent, and just turns around in circles every time you hit it? The damn thing is mocking you, and no matter how many times you hit it, no matter how hard you hit, no matter what angle you hit it from, the nail will not go in.
That's how I'm starting to feel, but I'm really very persistent when I want to be, so I'm going to keep hammering away, in hopes my point will sink in.
WHY is it impolite to say certain words in polite company? Is there a reason behind this stigma, or is it just something we learned as children (from people who learned it as children)? What will happen to us if we disobey, now that there is no authority figure save our own collective will?
Do you see the difference I'm trying to illustrate? Both behaviors (cursing and throwing things) are considered rude by society at large. One (throwing things) is rude for a reason we can all readily understand and explain, and the other (cursing) is rude simply because people have been told it's rude, and now believe it for reasons that are, apparently, unknown even to them. There doesn't seem to be any logic behind it.
It's rude to throw your trash on someone else's lawn, because they have to pick it up. It's rude to let your dog run free because it could bite someone or leave a big mess. It's rude to pick someone else's vegetables or flowers, because they put the effort in and deserve the reward. It's rude to put your feet up on the table in restaurants because it's unsanitary, people have to eat there and that means someone is going to have to clean up your leavings. There are thousands of behaviors that considered rude for a reason, and I'm not suggesting we do away with our manners. What I'm suggesting is that we ought to have a reason if we're going to consider something rude.
Use a simple test, like would you use those words in front of your 3 yr old, or your granny. And I realize that I'll be hearing from people whose grandmother would make a sailor blush.
In the current situation, no, but I think that ought to change.
When a stranger immediately curses in my company, I immediately peg him in a certain way.
Well, you're not alone at least. Most people seem to do this, as well as judge based on clothing, hair..skin color. Do you see where this leads?
Just because all people who curse are bad by this arbitrary standard we're all expected to maintain, and just because some people who curse are actually bad people, that's no reason to pass judgement on all people who curse, any more than meeting a mean old woman or a thuggish black man is any reason to pass judgement on the enormous demographics with which they can be associated.
Now you know how I was raised, eh? You really are superhuman!
You were allowed/encouraged to curse as a child? I've never met someone who had this upbringing, but I'm willing to accept it as a possibility if you tell me that's how you were raised.
I think it's time for me to walk away from this conversation until you cool down a bit.
Are you joking or being serious? It's so hard to tell in this medium...
I just looked back through my postings on this thread and I can't, for the life of me, see one instance where I lost my cool. Point it out, won't you, so I can avoid making that mistake again.
If I argue with passion, please don't mistake that for a personal attack. You can be sure I didn't mean to offend you. I'm interested, always, in learning through discussion, and I hope you are as well.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
My parents didn't teach me not to swear in order to get along in a polite society, they did it in order to get me into heaven, but that's another story.
And I get along quite well in a polite society. I'm very polite, friendly and people like me. (Or else they hate me) And that's ok.
Adults should realize that the use of profanity is due to either a desire to shock, or a very limited vocabulary.
This is simply not true. Maybe if you used profanity, these are the reasons you'd use it, but it's not the case with me. My vocabulary is larger than most and when I want to shock people (which I sometimes do) I use that vocabulary. If people are shocked by profanity, they need to get out more.
I don't think so. Little by little, step by step, this kind of 'management' of morality, controlling how people behave, setting limits on how much people are allowed to offend other people... it's the slippery slope to thought control AND breach of the first amendment.
It puts the power to offend on the speaker instead of the power to take offense on the listener where it belongs. You can take offense at something or not. It's the listener's choice.
It's not going to happen POW! all at once. The powers aren't that stupid. They will (and are) make little steps, getting us used to the idea of behavior control and then they take another step.
And I didn't include profanity in my choice.
I did. Why is your choice more valid than mine? I don't care if you use profanity or not. Why do you care if I do?
Originally posted by jsobecky
I knew there was a story behind that username!
We're talking about undisciplined teenagers here. People that have no consideration for those around them.
I can choose not to take heed when someone threatens to murder me, or yells "Fire" in a theater?
Just remember, every time you cuss, a kitten dies and the terrorists win.
This is not intended for any particular member, but I feel like I'm listening to points extracted from a high school debating course, e.g., "Why is a certain combination of letters and vowels considered offensive?"
Would any of you walk in the door and say to your wife, with your children present, "Hey you skanky c***, what the f*** is for supper tonight?" If not, why not?
Maybe because you love your wife, and would never refer to her that way? Or maybe because you love your kids, and don't want to hear that trash come out of their mouths?
That's what happens when two ideologies clash. I don't see your point as much as you don't see mine.
It's much the same reason we are taught not to call people "four-eyes" or "spaz" or "crip".
Why don't we use the streets whenever we have to relieve ourself? Because of physical health reasons. Well, there are other types of health, such as spiritual and mental/emotional, and we need to nurture them also.
No, I'm not buying the slippery slope argument, unless you can prove that people who dislike profanity are also judgemental on all those other criteria you mentioned.
Who judged them as bad, and who further lumped them into one big "bad" category?
First it was because I was punished, now it's because I wasn't punished? Are you trying to get me to talk about my childhood?
It was the "sarcasm on the menu" comment. It came out of the blue, which usually portends similar comments, in my experience.
Ahh, if only everyone were the same as you. If only everyone of us had the same life experiences, religion (or lack of it), race, ethnicity, and color of eyes. Then we could say with certainty that a particular person is too easily offended by something. It would make people so much easier to.... control.