New Video about Flying Saucers from Billy Meier

Originally posted by jbondo

Jeff Ritzman has done it right here at ATS.

Sky, I know you saw his reproductions and are aware of how thoroughly he proved BM to be a hoax. I thought you were around for that, no?

How can you continue to defend this guy?
[edit on 6-12-2006 by jbondo]

This is the first of heard of that guy. How about posting a link to the place where he proves, according to you, that Billy Meier is hoaxing.

Underground Video promoted his videos and then filed a class action lawsuit against him after learning that he was selling hoax videos. His alien is a model from a sears catalogue. his dinosaur footage is from some old movie or tv show.

if you want to hang your hopes on him, so be it. You might also want to check out other reputable folks such as those at Slurpo. Might as well shoot the moon.

Originally posted by Crakeur
Underground Video promoted his videos and then filed a class action lawsuit against him after learning that he was selling hoax videos. His alien is a model from a sears catalogue. his dinosaur footage is from some old movie or tv show.

if you want to hang your hopes on him, so be it. You might also want to check out other reputable folks such as those at Slurpo. Might as well shoot the moon.

So what if they filed a suit against Meier? This is America lawsuits are a hobby to many people. That means nothing. Tell me what was the result of the lawsuit and please provide the documentation. Otherwise it's just another phoney allegation.

like this one? One of the pictures Billy lifted from a magazine and claimed he went back in time and snapped it..

Originally posted by Crakeur

actually, someone or some group did find some damning evidence to the contrary regarding his photos, including the still photo taken of an alien that was really a still from an old tv show, a pie tin space craft and a few other space crafts made, apparently, in his garage.

[

Great feedback from people who have had the time to watch this 3/06 presentation.
I realize it's difficult to accept anything ufo-ish until it's been witnessed by people personally, probably best way in playing it safe. Nothing wrong with being skeptical. But after watching it, I came away wowed as it answers a lot of questions within the puzzle I have had for awhile. It fit right-in.

I don't think Billy is full of it at all. When he allowed a group to spread his work around "Figu" that's when the trouble started as I feel they were looking for the bucks and with holding important pieces such as the blink-out craft video sequences which would have been a bit harder to disprove back in 1978.

Copper pyramids and energy stuff though interesting, was not my reasons for posting it for comment.

I had hoped people would give a listen/look to parts re:

- Craft basic design principles and operation
- The German craft connection (especially to Adamski's thoughts)
- Incarnation and the history of the four races on earth
Craft video sequences (how they blink-out during daylight but may not move?), helps explain continual 2-3 nightly sightings in the same spot as reported many-many times in common UFO reports
- Moon and Mars pics
- Anything else in it promoting thought..

true or false or somewhere in between it's about ideas more than anything else I feel. I believed more than what I didn't in this one.

Great input by all those who took the time to post their thoughts thus far - thanks.

Dallas

Any idea on who the guy is giving the presentation?
Maybe Mike Horn?

Wow, that was really good, especially all the info about the operation of the crafts and going back and forth in time and such.

There's pretty much no doubt in my mind that Billy Meier is genuine and that the evidence that was said to be provided by Meier that turned out to be proven a hoax was really meant to set him up and discredit him. Sorry J-Ritz!

It would be really nice to get this guy Randolph Winters here on ATS for some one on one time a la John Lear. C'mon amigos, make it happen!

Peace

Well...

Firstly his photos have been duplicated using nothing but a model and string. I think it's been almost a year? I dunno. Anyway, here:






There's alot more, but you get the idea.

David Biedny, one of the foremost imaging experts in the world and leading photoshop gurus also has proven Meier's "lightship" photos to be double exposures.

There's also the "wedding cake" ship, made from many found parts but mostly a grain can lid:


Many other parts of this model have been identified, and yes, I have photos of them.

About a week ago the media representative for the case, Michael Horn spoke on the Kevin Smith Radio show www.kevinsmithshow.com . I'd long swore to Horn if I ever had foreknowledge of him being on a radio show, I'd call in. I was mentioned on the show by Horn no less then 3 times...so I called in.

Surprisingly to me I ended essentially being the second guest, debating Horn in the last 20 minutes or so. Mr. Smith runs a good balanced show from what I experienced, which tends to be a rare thing in these capitalistic days of ratings.

The good part is I go back on with Horn on Dec. 8th at 10pm ET for a full show.

There's been FAR more shown in this case then many others to adquately explain the small model use, more in fact that has had many cases thrown out and labeled the "H" word. Most of the hanger-ons with this case are really those who want it to be true, and/or cannot accept the idea that theyve been bamboozled.

Unfortunately, new people coming into the field of study are unaware of the background of the "researchers" or representatives of the Meier case, and at first read, it seems very solid.

That is until you start making calls and talking to people. Then it's a very different story.

I recently sent the "sound sample" of Billy's alledged "beamship" to one of the largest and most prestigious sound engineering academys in the world, and had their sound engineers do some listening with their equipment. I'm sure this will get discussed on the show and I'll save that for then. But it's damned enlightening.

Anyway, have a listen tomorrow night, and feel free to call in if ya want.

Oh btw, forgot to mention, the guy giving the presentation is Randoph Winters. He's of course now, as many others have been, ousted from the Meier "camp".

He's also admitted that there was serious issues with the Meier "evidence" on radio, as well as admitted that Meier's Venus shots were really from the Nasa Mariner 10 spacecraft, and that he didnt believe any of the time travel photos either.

So...what was up with him presenting data he knew was false?

Ka-Ching.

I might also mention that there exists no negative nor original photos, at least thats the claim now...of course Horn also said there wasnt any metal smaples either, but after me bringing that up a few times he cracked said said there was metal samples still in Meier's posession.

So does Billy want to have it analyzed by a 3rd party metallurgist and put his claims to the test definitively?

No he doesnt. At least not according to Horn.

Wonder why.

Originally posted by SkyWay

Originally posted by jbondo

Jeff Ritzman has done it right here at ATS.

Sky, I know you saw his reproductions and are aware of how thoroughly he proved BM to be a hoax. I thought you were around for that, no?

How can you continue to defend this guy?
[edit on 6-12-2006 by jbondo]

This is the first of heard of that guy. How about posting a link to the place where he proves, according to you, that Billy Meier is hoaxing.

There you go Sky!

Ask and you shall receive!

Did anyone happen to notice the guy in this latest vid just happen to have several items for sale? What do you think is the purpose of his presentations anyway? Plus the fact that he's pushing outdated cassettes and VHS.

Has anyone else had trouble logging into this website? I haven't been able to get in here since yesterday until now. Was there a problem with the servers or something?

Anyway, back to Billy Meier. As I pointed out previously, his photos have never been proven to be fakes. And as for making photos similar to his...that only proves the similar photos are fakes...not that Billy's are. Those photos that have been posted above are interesting. I would like to know what kind of camera was used.

I know that people can produce digital photos that have been photoshopped and then claim that they produced them with old equipment. Simply presenting pictures is not enough. The negatives are essential to make sure of the type of equipment that was used. Would very much appreciate how the whole procedure was set up. How was the model hung by string and from what? What kind of equipment was used to produce the model ufos? Were the models of ufos made with the kind of equipment that was available when Meier produced his photos.

As far as I can tell, the people who are trying to disprove the authenticity of Meier photos are using no more evidence than Meier uses -- photos. So how can one use photos to disprove other photos. It's like one person's word against another, except in this case it's one person's PHOTOS against another's. Just because one person's photos are fake does not mean another person's photos are also fake. I could take a photo of a toy model of a Boeing 747, does that prove that genuine photos of a Boeing 747 are fake? Of course NOT!

I'll be back tomorrow. I hope I don't have anymore trouble getting into this website.

Model, string, camera. Nothing else. I've shown the model as it truly is here before.

The fact is, Michael Horn asked me to duplicate the photos. I've done that, and a hell of alot more. The bottom line is the burden of proof falls upon Meier, not I. This is one of the biggest fallacies with Meierites. They truly believe it's our job to prove them wrong.

The pictures prove one thing, and I've said this before, that there is NO atmospheric hazing on my saucer, nor Meiers. Why? Because theyre both small objects relatively close to the camera. End of story.

There's plenty more, and after tomorrow night I'll be glad to reposit alot of photos showing clear use of models right here on ATS, as well as the sound sample, and many of the "expert" testimonials being not at all what they seem.

Funny how no one has mentioned the metal sample? Hmmm. Michael Horn now admits Meier has some after vehemently denying it before...so why wont he submit it for testing? Why the backpeddle??

You all know why.

btw Skyway, my ship is a small one made of plastic. Meier has used plates, trashcan lids (as shown...which I dont see you mention), luggage clasps, etc.

Also, please take note that you seem perfectly satisfied to look at Meier's photos with no questions, yet mine seem to need a congressional report.

So, do you realize that when you see Meier's photos on the net, youre looking at scans of lithographs? Thats right kids, no original photos. Even most the "experts" who were asked about the Meier photos were only shown lithographs.

Here's some info on what happened to Robert Nathan, one of the godfathers of modern imaging, when he was asked to look at Meier's "evidence" in the way of photos:

"In 1978 Nr. Robert Nathan at JPL was sufficiently impressed with the Meier photographs to have copies made of Meier transparencies at the JPL photo lab. After the transfer he refused to analyze the photographs, however, because his developer discovered they were several generations away from the originals. Nathan felt that the transparencies were so far away in generation from the photographs he had seen that Wendelle Stevens had attempted to trick him. Why were they several generations off originals if this was 1978??"

This is but one case of clear deception in the "analysis" of the images. There's also quotes from a DeAnza employee who said that he was asked to alter photos to make it appear as if the ground reflected in the "beamship" hull.

Well thats a bit dishonest. It's also called evidence tampering. This is all documented if you look past your nose.

Want more? OK.

Robert Post, JPL photo laboratory for 22 years was shown the photos. He found that they were lithographs, and worthless for analysis. When he later saw an actual photo, he stated they were much fuzzier then the lithographs.

Can you say alteration of core data again?

Post said at that point he had the feeling he was dealing with a "con man" and didnt want anything to do with it.

I can go on.

Shall we examine the Asket and Nera photos? How about the time travel dinosaur photos? Oh, and my favorite....how about that raygun.

The more I talk about it...the more absurd it gets. This show friday night is it for me. If youre even remotely interested, you'll listen. I grow extraordinarily tired of typing all this.

There are SO many better, and more interesting cases to get to work on.

I think I've done far more then enough for any rational human being to get the real picture...and I aint talkin lithographs.

Whilst the Meier case would be one of the greatest events in the earth's history, I have read too much debunking of it to believe it. Pity.

Here is a link to a debate between Randolph Winters (the guy in the video) against a Meiers debunker.


It seems Winters has some serious problems with Meiers story as well.

External Link

TK

[edit on 8/12/06 by tkmelb]

Thanks for the replies, interesting. Great to see a couple had time to see and listen
to the presentation, I realize it's long. People and most, if not all, Ufologists at conferences have something to sell as people who purchased the ticket to attend have the option to opt out of buying their merchandise, nothing new.
Some Ufologists make their living through table-top sales during conferences.

A lot of good info was presented and I especially became absorbed re how light refraction is used to blink the craft out, while in reality it's still there. Similar technology is being experimented with under Black programs now.

Followed Billy's case since appx /92, and have communicated with Horn and Wendel Stevens, Stevens being the first US researcher to investigate first hand in 1979, I believe. Horn spent a lot of time here at ATS answering questions appx a year ago.

It's sure been controversial as you can see, but that does NOT make Meier's contacts, pics and video any less authentic. The same kind of debunker jargon was unleashed at Ed Walters and most researchers have reason to believe what he taped and the Polaroid stills he took are very real, especially after light blasting which much more detail than the original night times pics. Walter's was emotionally blown away with the ridicule he received for telling the truth.

Debunkers are debunkers, they don't believe now, they won't believe later and try to make fools out of people who do. Sort of..well I don't believe and you shouldn't either. Ignore debunkers.
Skeptics on the other hand are at least open minded and are interesting in knowing the truth, not deciding it.

There are other cases not as controversial as this, but you'll find the same debunkers doing their thing. Usually 'cause they have not the experience of doing their own work, so due to ignorance and a serious lack of research it's just easier for those types to make up a bunch of junk and then dump-junk on other peoples experiences, effort in research or efforts in sharing something with others. Ignore Debunkers.

I found the presentation fascinating and believe more of it than I don't, and I am experienced in Ufology research. I'd prefer discussion be more focused on particular segments of the presentation rather than just deciding if you believe Meier's story as a whole, or have been expressing why others shouldn't, thanks.

Thanks for the continued thoughts posted on this thread. Great feed back.

Dallas

[edit on 8-12-2006 by Dallas]

Originally posted by Dallas
I'd prefer discussion be more focused on particular segments of the presentation rather than just deciding if you believe Meier's story as a whole

That's the nature of discrediting though and it's just another example of how easily most of the public is manipulated. Mr. Winters said himself in the video that he wasn't implying that all the videos and slides he had shown were real or fake, they were just part of Meier's collection (allegedly). Mr. Winters also said that as time went on Meier's handlers were becoming more hostile and greedy towards the public and each other. These people were ripe for blackmail and coercion IMO. They were probably the reason that these super fake looking pictures and suggestions of hoaxes came into existence in the first place.

Would someone like to tell me how Mr. Winters came by all the propulsion information? Did he pull it out of a box of Lucky Charms?

J-Ritz, you know I like you but you seem to have such venom towards Meier, almost bordering on obsession, that it makes me think there's more to you than you let on.

Peace

[edit on 8-12-2006 by Dr Love]

[edit on 8-12-2006 by Dr Love]

Originally posted by jritzmann
btw Skyway, my ship is a small one made of plastic. Meier has used plates, trashcan lids (as shown...which I dont see you mention), luggage clasps, etc.

You must have been hallucinating when you looked at Meier's photos if you think those are "plates, trashcan lids..." Calling the non-human-made-craft in Meier's photos trashcan lids is equivalent to calling an airplane a pencil. You are making outrageous exaggerations of general shapes of the craft in Meier's photos. I am no fan of Billy Meier but I have to laugh at some of the absurd remarks that some people make about his photos. It should be obvious to most that the craft in those photos are not "luggage clasps." This cannot be taken seriously!

Also, please take note that you seem perfectly satisfied to look at Meier's photos with no questions, yet mine seem to need a congressional report.

My friend, I have already considered the same questions about Meiers photos and films. Besides, I am only asking the same questions of you that you ask of Billy. A fair approach wouldn't you say?

"In 1978 Nr. Robert Nathan at JPL was sufficiently impressed with the Meier photographs to have copies made of Meier transparencies at the JPL photo lab. After the transfer he refused to analyze the photographs, however, because his developer discovered they were several generations away from the originals. Nathan felt that the transparencies were so far away in generation from the photographs he had seen that Wendelle Stevens had attempted to trick him. Why were they several generations off originals if this was 1978??"

Many copies are made of photographs to accomodate many people who want to see them.

This is but one case of clear deception in the "analysis" of the images. There's also quotes from a DeAnza employee who said that he was asked to alter photos to make it appear as if the ground reflected in the "beamship" hull.

Is that supposed to be credible evidence of anything? Just because some unidentified "DeAnza employee" alleges that he was asked to alter photos, are we supposed to blindly and unquestioningly accept it as true? Oh puhleeze! This is nothing. Besides, it doesn't even specify WHO asked the employee to alter the photos...it could have been someone who was trying to frame Billy Meier. They probably were hoping that people who learned about it would ASSUME that Meier was behind it. These are the kind of cheap and low tactics that are used in attempts to discredit Billy Meier. Patheitc!

Well thats a bit dishonest. It's also called evidence tampering. This is all documented if you look past your nose.

It's dishonest on the part of the shameless debunkers. How devious they are! I honestly don't know how they can live with themselves.

Robert Post, JPL photo laboratory for 22 years was shown the photos. He found that they were lithographs, and worthless for analysis. When he later saw an actual photo, he stated they were much fuzzier then the lithographs.

Can you say alteration of core data again?

Post said at that point he had the feeling he was dealing with a "con man" and didnt want anything to do with it.

That could have been done by anyone. That is no proof that Billy Meier was responsible. If there were any "con men" involved it was probably some sleazey debunkers up to their dirty tricks.

I think I've done far more then enough for any rational human being to get the real picture...and I aint talkin lithographs.

You have done enough only for people who don't look closely at things....not enough for any skeptic. All you have presented are a pile of unproven allegations. Some of you people are afraid to accept the reality of Meiers photos. Your fear cripples your judgement. Examine the allegations against Meier with more critical thinking and less fear, and you will see through the lies and frame-ups of the deceitful debunkers.

One more thing...I am by no means a fan of Billy Meier. I don't approve of some of the stuff that he has been "taught" about creation by the "aliens." But this does not mean that I am going to accept any lies hurled against the man by his detractors. Just because I disagree with Meier's philosophy does not mean that his experiences and films are not genuine.

Originally posted by SkyWay
Has anyone else had trouble logging into this website? I haven't been able to get in here since yesterday until now. Was there a problem with the servers or something?

This kind of says it all. Jeff, I think you now realize what you're up against.

The lake county aliens must have knocked the server out yesterday.

No offense but these fact against fiction arguments going on and on every other day are getting old.

Why don't people just let the Meier fraud left alone? People who want to believe the story will believe it, either way - Sensible people will dismiss it.. You are just promoting him when you're replying to threads like this + that it's a waste of time.

[edit on 8-12-2006 by DigThat]

[edit on 8-12-2006 by DigThat]

Dr Love, found some stuff on the guy:

www.cojoweb.com... He's written a book listed on Amazon www.amazon.com... called The Pleiadian Mission: A Time of Awareness.

A 1998 web article www.outtahear.com... paints Winter's as an outcast of Mr Meire. And a man who has misquoted Meier's contact loss dates. But I could not see any quote from Meier himself and I'm sure Figu will have written something nasty about Winter, since Winter seems so critical publicly of Figu.. so I can't say I'd believe Figu on Winters.

From what little I could find, less the video and the above, Winter's seems to be making his living off Meier's experience at least in part. He may have had access to Meire documents, pics and video footage, but seems as though he may no longer be welcomed by Meire or Figu? Seems to me looking deeper into Winter's pics and videos may be warranted since they are the key.

Edit: Here's Figu's release on Professional Skeptic analysis www.figu.org...

Dallas



[edit on 8-12-2006 by Dallas]