O Christmas Tree rewritten as pagan.

It's a crying shame that you can vote a mod "Way Above". Although I don't agree that there's no difference what a person believes, I do really really like the link you've provided and sounds more accurate than others I've heard. I haven't spent the time substantiating what it says yet, but seems thus far a trustworthy source. It does actually go into the history of the song as well as covering many gripes others have been having about Christimas related symbols/date/etc.

NOW! Having understood the history via the information in the link I propose a solution to a squabble that has lasted thousands of years. Christians are upset about paganism incorporated into their practices, pagans are upset that Christianity is incorporated into their practices, so let the two (now knowing the proper histories) be separate. Christians, you sing the hymn O Christmas Tree, pagans you can have Deck the Halls, Christians "O Holy Night", pagans "Frosty the Snowman" and so forth. Sing what you represent and make no mistake about what you believe and why. Then everyone would be clear, no more squabbling, then we can have our peace.

[edit on 10-10-2006 by saint4God]

Okay, what were you trying for?

I was trying to show you that everything around you is in existance because of the Holy Spirit, everything has form because of it. Therefore God is in everything and OF everything, even that stupid little song which pangs your heart so.
Everything here is here because of such an entity/being or whatever you want to call God, or ALLAH, as being the older of the descriptors.. having nothing to do with ISLAM.

You are not my judge nor commissioner.

No I am not, I am making an observation because sometimes people cannot see who they really are, or what they are really doing/saying.

Not the one from the Q'uran, I'm sure.

This is exactly my point here..... Just because a bunch of people pervert something you automatically look at the fruit and call the tree bad.
Sure the people might have a skewed version of The One True God, but that doesn't make it any less credible.

you come on your own accord.

This is incorrect.

Now here is your own self-importance and self-fabrication...
Whom do you selectively represent? and how hast that one or ones instated you?
have they given you visions? have they spoken to you? met with you?
If you come on someone elses accord, please let us wait no longer, tell us his message and that which he has sent you to do, you are burdening us with your with-held information....
if you come on someone elses accord you actions are not your own, and should reflect thusly, you should act according to the one who hast sent you to BE...

Try your psychic skills again, they seem to be failing you yet again.

They aren't psychic skills... I can see it in your apparent arrogance, and your lack of ability to admit there might be MORE knowledge out there and your apparent lack of ability to be able to integrate any new knowledge into your old knowledge, to refine the knowledge and make it actually applicable.

So far still falling short of "mind reader"

See right there, you attack a facet of knowledge you don't wish to integrate into your whole.

You take everything as an outright attack on who you are, you seem to be concrete in your stead as one who 'already has his knowledge' and doesn't wish to alter it in the very least when new pertinant information is at hand.

I'd love to talk more about Christ. There is a topic that we should return to though, as there are many threads we can use to talk about Jesus. Indeed Jesus did come to help the sinner, not because he wanted them to glorify themselves but so that he could die for them to pay the penalty for their sins so that those who did believe could have eternal life.

Back to the topic then?

Sure back to the topic....

I can agree they have changed it to disinclude references to God....

but just as our idea of Christmas has been tampered with, so has our idea of God.

Originally posted by saint4God
It's a crying shame that you can vote a mod "Way Above". Although I don't agree that there's no difference what a person believes, I do really really like the link you've provided and sounds more accurate than others I've heard. I haven't spent the time substantiating what it says yet, but seems thus far a trustworthy source. It does actually go into the history of the song as well as covering many gripes others have been having about Christimas related symbols/date/etc.

NOW! Having understood the history via the information in the link I propose a solution to a squabble that has lasted thousands of years. Christians are upset about paganism incorporated into their practices, pagans are upset that Christianity is incorporated into their practices, so let the two (now knowing the proper histories) be separate. Christians, you sing the hymn O Christmas Tree, pagans you can have Deck the Halls, Christians "O Holy Night", pagans "Frosty the Snowman" and so forth. Sing what you represent and make no mistake about what you believe and why. Then everyone would be clear, no more squabbling, then we can have our peace.

[edit on 10-10-2006 by saint4God]

LoL, Sorry I had to point this out... I was enjoying your post until I got to the end, than I loved it... it made me smile.

I don't think the problem is basely between the Christians and the Pagans.. and nor do I think singing our own christmas carols are going to bring peace...

no one is really upset about anything.... I haven't heard to many people complaining about Christmas carols.. other than the fact that they suck altogether, references to God or not.

I think thats the problem with people and with peace...
is that we can't all just not give a sh!t about what everyone else is doing and BE happy living.... educate those who want to be educated.... when they want to be educated and how they want to be educated.... The problem is our society.. it forces crap down everyones throats at every turn... people are no different.. neither am I... all we do as humans is force feed our BS down everyone elses throats and expect them to appreciate it and understand it.... we're so damn worried about everyone else and how they live we literally could care less about ourselves.... while we all sit here bitching about crap.. we could actually be out there, maybe meditating or praying or LIVING and being HAPPY LIVING... but no, here we all are, worried about the next persons post and if they got our message or not and how we have to reshape our words and our meaning to clarify it to someone whose just trying to force-feed their BS down your throat.

Originally posted by saint4God
Yeah. But when you perform a ritual, wouldn't you like to know why you're doing it?

Well I don't really consider any part od Chrismas to be a ritual, so no.


Also, I don't know if you noticed, but you or the computer accidentally
put my name in a bunch of stuff said by styki.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
I was trying to show you that everything around you is in existance because of the Holy Spirit, everything has form because of it. Therefore God is in everything and OF everything, even that stupid little song which pangs your heart so.
Everything here is here because of such an entity/being or whatever you want to call God, or ALLAH, as being the older of the descriptors.. having nothing to do with ISLAM.

I understand your contention is there's nothing that isn't God, but considering what He says about the rebellion in heaven (as well as the rebellion on earth with Adam and Eve) clearly there are things against Him. It would make me blind to danger and susceptible to the same folly as my forefathers/mothers to ignore this fact. In addition, having experienced pure evil and God was not in it. I hope that the same experience is not necessary for you as well. Walk from suburbia into the inner city at night and declare God is in all things... including the drugs, rape, gunshots, and the domestic violence you hear at a nearby apartment. Wear body armor when you do and bring enough money to give to all who ask/demand. These are only the visual examples. The spiritual ones are much more dangerous.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
No I am not, I am making an observation because sometimes people cannot see who they really are, or what they are really doing/saying.

I have no problem with that, but you're also making many false assumptions when you've yet to meet me.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
This is exactly my point here..... Just because a bunch of people pervert something you automatically look at the fruit and call the tree bad.

"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit." - Matthew 12:33

"Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers." - Luke 6:44

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
Sure the people might have a skewed version of The One True God, but that doesn't make it any less credible.

Agreed on this point. We're disputing who is the one who skewed the original.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
Now here is your own self-importance

I've never claimed to be more than any other person.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
and self-fabrication...

If I'm fabricating, it should be a simple to unravel.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
Whom do you selectively represent?

saint4God. I am a saint for God. I represent none other here. Yes that does make me selective.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
and how hast that one or ones instated you?

Not by my choice friend. It's a long story and not on topic.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
have they given you visions?

Surely.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
have they spoken to you?

Yeah.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
met with you?

Depends on what you mean by "met". If you mean face-to-face, I've "met" the other side in this fashion per my request.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
If you come on someone elses accord, please let us wait no longer, tell us his message and that which he has sent you to do, you are burdening us with your with-held information....

You already have the message friend. It is spoken from the mouths of those who believe and written by believers before. You're right that it is indeed one of the greatest important ever spoken. The message is this:

"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." - Romans 10:9

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
if you come on someone elses accord you actions are not your own, and should reflect thusly, you should act according to the one who hast sent you to BE...

I do my best, but will fall short certainly. As I said, I am not God.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
They aren't psychic skills...

Obviously.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
I can see it in your apparent arrogance,

I am not arrogant about me but am assured of Him.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
and your lack of ability to admit there might be MORE knowledge out there and your apparent lack of ability to be able to integrate any new knowledge into your old knowledge, to refine the knowledge and make it actually applicable.

Another judgement. How long must I sit here while you do so?

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
See right there, you attack a facet of knowledge you don't wish to integrate into your whole.

I deny ignorance as stated by the purpose of this sight.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
You take everything as an outright attack on who you are, you seem to be concrete in your stead as one who 'already has his knowledge' and doesn't wish to alter it in the very least when new pertinant information is at hand.

If you'd read the threads I've been present on, you'd know better already. I've admitted when I was wrong and considered things that are thought provoking.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
Sure back to the topic....

I can agree they have changed it to disinclude references to God....

Thank you! That's all I wanted to establish.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
but just as our idea of Christmas has been tampered with, so has our idea of God.

Start a thread on it, show me the link and we'll talk.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
I think thats the problem with people and with peace...
is that we can't all just not give a sh!t about what everyone else is doing and BE happy living....

I find caring for other people to be the second most important thing a person could possibly ever do.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
educate those who want to be educated.... when they want to be educated and how they want to be educated.... The problem is our society.. it forces crap down everyones throats at every turn... people are no different.. neither am I... all we do as humans is force feed our BS down everyone elses throats and expect them to appreciate it and understand it....

My recommendation then is to put down and not pick up and "BS".

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
we're so damn worried about everyone else and how they live we literally could care less about ourselves....

Selflessness is an amirable trait. I hope we gain more of it, not less.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
while we all sit here bitching about crap..

Welcome to ATS

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
we could actually be out there, maybe meditating or praying or LIVING and being HAPPY LIVING...

Go for it dude! . I'm not on ATS all day. I always take weekends and evenings "off" to do exactly that.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
but no, here we all are, worried about the next persons post and if they got our message or not and how we have to reshape our words and our meaning to clarify it to someone whose just trying to force-feed their BS down your throat.

Whoa hey, nobody is forcing anything. You cannot "force" anything and neither can I. All we can do is sit around the round-table and pitch things into the center. If someone wants to pick it up they may do so. If they want to let it sit, that too is their choice. ATS certainly isn't meant to be a stressful job, I'm fairly sure. In fact, it's a very effective channel finding the answers to some hard questions so long as people are in line with the objective to "deny ignorance" ...which incidently can be well followed with, "...and the truth will set you free." - John 8:32.

Originally posted by iori_komei
Well I don't really consider any part od Chrismas to be a ritual, so no.

Not a Christian ritual no, but we do things during Christmas that are ritualistic of other religions if we're not conscious of them and prevent ourselves from doing so. Yule-log and Yule-tide are one example

Originally posted by iori_komei
Also, I don't know if you noticed, but you or the computer accidentally
put my name in a bunch of stuff said by styki.

Doh! I'm sincerely sorry. I can't seem to edit that far back but see where I was quoting a lot of people and made this error. If a mod would be able to correct it would be appreciated, but hopefully everyone has read this far to see I've misquoted you. Apologies again.

[edit on 11-10-2006 by saint4God]

so far there are at least 3 versions of the song that I have found with several different translations. German is not easily translated directly into english ( but then little is).

O Tannenbaum

Love Song by
August Zarnack 1820

O Tannenbaum, o Tannenbaum,
Wie treu sind deine Blätter!
Du grünst nicht nur zur Sommerzeit,
Nein auch im Winter, wenn es schneit.
O Tannenbaum, o Tannenbaum,
Wie treu sind deine Blätter!



O Mägdelein, o Mägdelein,
Wie falsch ist dein Gemüte!
Du schwurst mir Treu in meinem Glück,
Nun arm ich bin, gehst du zurück.
O Mägdelein, o Mägdelein,
Wie falsch ist dein Gemüte!



Die Nachtigall, die Nachtigall,
Nahmst du dir zum Exempel.
Sie bleibt so lang der Sommer lacht,
Im Herbst sie sich von dannen macht.
Die Nachtigall, die Nachtigall,
Nahmst du dir zum Exempel.


Der Bach im Tal, der Bach im Tal
Ist deiner Falschheit Spiegel.
Er strömt allein, wenn Regen fließt,
Bei Dürr' er bald den Quell verschließt.
Der Bach im Tal, der Bach im Tal
Ist deiner Falschheit Spiegel.

so IMO to whine that the song is a hymn being given "pagan words" IMO
is naught but the sniveling of an unimaginative sect.

Care to share your source?

Also, how does this pre-date the 700's A.D that Masqua had established as the origin of the Christmas tree (and erego the hymn that would come therefrom) here: www.thehistoryof.net... and the recorded hymn I've provided? I've already stated my case as August Zarnack's version (which was listed as 1824 according to my source) was after the original.

Finally, this is an exploratory thread. I've never claimed to have years of research on this hymn and certainly welcome new information, not dismiss it. Where you come up with this "sniveling" defamatory remark I don't know, but it is irrelevant.


[edit on 11-10-2006 by saint4God]

here is thesource for this
particular version. I chose this version simply because I like it. The point
you overlooked , was that there are several translations. On the site referenced
they also state " there are no direct translations". As I said German is difficult
to translate to english. perhaps another example of this would serve to illustrate.

Spanish. What was taught in schools when i was taking it was Castillian spanish.
Outside of Spain and possibly Mexico city nobody speaks Castillian spanish. I also
learned some border dialect from around the AZ border, and street mexican from
the So. Cal. area. Today in the place that I work we have one whole department
that is Mexican, they speak nothing but Mexican. At times they cant even understand
each other yet they purportedly speak the same language.

Another example, try to explain to a visitor to this country that a Newyawker, a Bostonian, a NoDak, a Val, and a Cajun are all speaking the same language. You
could also add a Minnesotan,a Georgian, a Tennesean, and a Texan. one of the
most strange combinations I ever listened to was a dear friend in the service. She was
a Mexican from Boston. Picture Ted Kennedy speaking Spanish(ok ted speaking at all is ROTFLMAOPIMP).

My point being for you to whine that "they are changing the words" is foolish.
first we really do not have an exact copy of the original lyrics. Second translating them to modern english is at best open for translation at best ( much the same as the translations of the bible.)

Here are just a few questions that effect the translation of the original if it can be found.

What area was I written in? Germany? Austria? Alsace? Lorraine?
What dialect was it written in? High German ? Low German? one of the many Dialects?

Translation, was it originally translated from say the dialect of Alsace-Lorraine to
French (the language of the royal courts) then back to German? or to Latin (the language of the church) then back to german? or possibly hidden transmitted underground and only later translated into other languages, Germanic and English
being 2 of the few not associated with latin and the church.

[edit on 12-10-2006 by stalkingwolf]

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
Another example, try to explain to a visitor to this country that a Newyawker, a Bostonian, a NoDak, a Val, and a Cajun are all speaking the same language. You
could also add a Minnesotan,a Georgian, a Tennesean, and a Texan. one of the
most strange combinations I ever listened to was a dear friend in the service. She was
a Mexican from Boston. Picture Ted Kennedy speaking Spanish(ok ted speaking at all is ROTFLMAOPIMP).

In the German lyrics I had quoted, the word "Gott" is used. I don't know much German, but I know Gott is God. No translation problems there. I'm sure I could validate the other German words as well, but doubt it is as big of a concern as you're presenting.

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
My point being for you to whine

I thought "whining" was a vocal, tonal quality. How is it you are able to discern "whining" through typed words?

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
that "they are changing the words" is foolish.

That's what we're here to explore. I make an assertion based on the facts I've gathers, others provide facts that they have gathered and we come to a conclusion.

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
first we really do not have an exact copy of the original lyrics.

No (well, somebody may have but I do not), but we can sequence the events.

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
Second translating them to modern english is at best open for translation at best ( much the same as the translations of the bible.)

Negative on both accounts as explained above.

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
Here are just a few questions that effect the translation of the original if it can be found.

What area was I written in? Germany? Austria? Alsace? Lorraine?
What dialect was it written in? High German ? Low German? one of the many Dialects?

The sources indicate Germany. I don't see Austria. Dialects are not as problematic as discerning Chinese. I'm not sure why that would be an issue.

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
Translation, was it originally translated from say the dialect of Alsace-Lorraine to
French (the language of the royal courts) then back to German? or to Latin (the language of the church) then back to german? or possibly hidden transmitted underground and only later translated into other languages, Germanic and English
being 2 of the few not associated with latin and the church.

I see, so you're doubting that what I've presented says "God" as well as the other words that have been translated? Well, at least we can recognize that the 1824 lyrics were not the first and that post-1824 lyrics they were pagan. All we need now is someone who speaks German (and perhaps know the language history) to read the pre-1824 lyrics and translate for us...though I'd venture to say the translations we've read thus far are accurate.

[edit on 12-10-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by masqua

Originally posted by saint4God
If the lyrics change from a Christian hymn to tree worshipping, I think so. And, I'd say others who are believers should choose the lyrics that do maintain a course of following God's Word.

Although I believe that the use of an evergreen on winter solstice heralds back even further than St Boniface and into ancient pagan Rome, I would like to present this snippet I found Googling the song itself.

www.thehistoryof.net...

It’s no surprise that the famous Christmas carol, “Oh Christmas Tree, Oh Christmas Tree” was translated from the German original because it was in Germany that the idea of a Christmas tree was born. It happened back in the early 700s, when St. Boniface, an English monk and missionary, was preaching a sermon on the December 25th Nativity to some Germanic Druids.

In order to quell the Druids’ idolatry of the oak tree, St. Boniface cut down a huge one. As it came crashing down, it crushed every bush in its path, except for one small fir sapling. Although this was purely a coincidence, St. Boniface cleverly decided to capitalize on it – he declared it a miracle that this one single sapling hadn’t been killed, and concluded, “Let this be called the tree of the Christ Child.”

To preChristian pagans, as today, trees hold a great deal of meaning.

It's well known that its undying nature through the winter months was held in symbolic esteem. When all other trees shed their leaves, they stand alone in their verdant greenery. Incidentally, I can't really envision Christmas without mistletoe.

No matter about the changes of the song, imo. The old lyrics will be retained by those who care, new ones adopted by others, but the true meaning of winter solstice or the birth of baby Jesus is a festivity we can all share in our own ways.

It holds within it a glimmer of hope and rebirth, no matter what religion or politics attempts to glean from it.

Originally posted by masqua

Originally posted by saint4God
If the lyrics change from a Christian hymn to tree worshipping, I think so. And, I'd say others who are believers should choose the lyrics that do maintain a course of following God's Word.

Although I believe that the use of an evergreen on winter solstice heralds back even further than St Boniface and into ancient pagan Rome, I would like to present this snippet I found Googling the song itself.

www.thehistoryof.net...

It’s no surprise that the famous Christmas carol, “Oh Christmas Tree, Oh Christmas Tree” was translated from the German original because it was in Germany that the idea of a Christmas tree was born. It happened back in the early 700s, when St. Boniface, an English monk and missionary, was preaching a sermon on the December 25th Nativity to some Germanic Druids.

In order to quell the Druids’ idolatry of the oak tree, St. Boniface cut down a huge one. As it came crashing down, it crushed every bush in its path, except for one small fir sapling. Although this was purely a coincidence, St. Boniface cleverly decided to capitalize on it – he declared it a miracle that this one single sapling hadn’t been killed, and concluded, “Let this be called the tree of the Christ Child.”

To preChristian pagans, as today, trees hold a great deal of meaning.

It's well known that its undying nature through the winter months was held in symbolic esteem. When all other trees shed their leaves, they stand alone in their verdant greenery. Incidentally, I can't really envision Christmas without mistletoe.

No matter about the changes of the song, imo. The old lyrics will be retained by those who care, new ones adopted by others, but the true meaning of winter solstice or the birth of baby Jesus is a festivity we can all share in our own ways.

It holds within it a glimmer of hope and rebirth, no matter what religion or politics attempts to glean from it.

Complete poppycock, the Christmas tree had no more to do with St. Boniface than Valentines day had to do with St. Valentine.

Jeremiah 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. 5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

The story of St. Boniface is only a cover to keep you from looking beyond and finding the truth. Same as St. Valentine and same as St. Lucifer.

Originally posted by dAlen
sounds like the conspiracy is on the other end. Perhaps Christians are trying to make everything Christian.

That is exactly what happened.

Allow me to introduce you to Gaius Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus, Ala Emperor Constantine the First.

Constantine is best remembered in modern times for the Edict of Milan in 313, which fully legalized Christianity in the Empire, for the first time, and the Council of Nicaea in 325; these actions are considered major factors in the spreading of the Christian religion. His reputation as the "first Christian Emperor" has been promulgated by historians from Lactantius and Eusebius of Caesarea to the present day; although there has been debate over the veracity of his faith because he continued support for pagan deities and was baptized very close to his death.

Source

Constantine was faced with a big problem in Rome. His people were killing eachother over petty squabbles of religious differences. Christianity had grown emmensly due to it's messages of peace and compassion (oh the Irony), but many Pagens clung to their beliefs and would not convert.

As a way of making Christianity more acceptable to the masses in general, he incorperated aspects of Pagen religions. Christians couldn't attack pegan temples if the formerly Pagen symbles were considered Holy to the Christian Church aswell, right?

The Egg, the Evergreen, The Trinity... all these are Pagen Icons.

Originally posted by BitRaiser

Originally posted by dAlen
sounds like the conspiracy is on the other end. Perhaps Christians are trying to make everything Christian.

That is exactly what happened.

Allow me to introduce you to Gaius Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus, Ala Emperor Constantine the First.

Constantine is best remembered in modern times for the Edict of Milan in 313, which fully legalized Christianity in the Empire, for the first time, and the Council of Nicaea in 325; these actions are considered major factors in the spreading of the Christian religion. His reputation as the "first Christian Emperor" has been promulgated by historians from Lactantius and Eusebius of Caesarea to the present day; although there has been debate over the veracity of his faith because he continued support for pagan deities and was baptized very close to his death.

Source

Constantine was faced with a big problem in Rome. His people were killing eachother over petty squabbles of religious differences. Christianity had grown emmensly due to it's messages of peace and compassion (oh the Irony), but many Pagens clung to their beliefs and would not convert.

As a way of making Christianity more acceptable to the masses in general, he incorperated aspects of Pagen religions. Christians couldn't attack pegan temples if the formerly Pagen symbles were considered Holy to the Christian Church aswell, right?

The Egg, the Evergreen, The Trinity... all these are Pagen Icons.

Or........................We could pull back the cover and check the truth.

Constantine had a big problem all right. The Romans sun worshipers (Insert Baal, Satan, Lucifer, Apollo, Sol Invictus, etc, etc., ect..........) could not kill the Christians so they merely took it over and backed the Bishops of Rome and formed the Catholic church.

Constantine had no interest in making Christianity more palatable for the masses, he was more interest in putting his god, (Sol Invictus or Baal or Satan) into Christianity. That's why when people talk about the Christians and the Crusades they are clueless to the fact that the Crusades were merely a move of the Roman empire. By the way, try and find a Crusade that did not attack the Jew. You can't.

The Vatican has yet to recognize Israel as a nation. Get the picture yet.......??????



CAN YOU TELL ME THE ORIGIN OF THE EVERGREEN?

Sun Matrix, do you actually read the posts before hitting the quote button and replying? Both quotes below are from the only post I have put into this thread and it seems to me you only looked at the information provided in the link, while ignoring my personal comments.

By masqua
Although I believe that the use of an evergreen on winter solstice heralds back even further than St Boniface and into ancient pagan Rome, I would like to present this snippet I found Googling the song itself.

To which you replied;

by Sun Matrix
Complete poppycock, the Christmas tree had no more to do with St. Boniface than Valentines day had to do with St. Valentine.

by Sun Matrix

CAN YOU TELL ME THE ORIGIN OF THE EVERGREEN?

by masqua
To preChristian pagans, as today, trees hold a great deal of meaning.

It's well known that its undying nature through the winter months was held in symbolic esteem. When all other trees shed their leaves, they stand alone in their verdant greenery.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
CAN YOU TELL ME THE ORIGIN OF THE EVERGREEN?

I can. It's here:

"Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day." - Genesis chapter 1, verse 11

So...how 'bout that topic eh? I guess we don't want to talk about the hymn being changed so we have to talk about Constantine, the crusades and stuff found on OTHER threads.

[edit on 13-10-2006 by saint4God]

My bad Masqua, you are correct.

Originally posted by saint4God

CAN YOU TELL ME THE ORIGIN OF THE EVERGREEN?

So...how 'bout that topic eh? I guess we don't want to talk about the hymn being changed so we have to talk about Constantine, the crusades and stuff found on OTHER threads.

[edit on 13-10-2006 by saint4God]







I was only addressing incorrect comments posted in this thread.

I believe my comment about the origin of the Christmas tree addresses your changing of the song. As Jeremiah 10 says Learn NOT the Way of the People.

If you understood what they were talking about in Jeremiah 10 you would not start a thread like this. I doubt your Father is at all interested in protecting the words of this Christmas song.





[edit on 13-10-2006 by Sun Matrix]

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
I was only addressing incorrect comments posted in this thread.

No worries and don't mind that, rather do mind those who are looking to change the subject.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
I believe my comment about the origin of the Christmas tree addresses your changing of the song. As Jeremiah 10 says Learn NOT the Way of the People.

Jeremiah does address not worshipping trees, to which I agree entirely. The song is a hymn about giving thanks to God and is changed into worshipping trees as it seems so far. I'm looking to provide the same warning Jeremiah is. Did you think I made this thread for pagans?

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
If you understood what they were talking about in Jeremiah 10 you would not start a thread like this.

You're not concerned about Christian things turned into the worship of other gods?

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
I doubt your Father is at all interested in protecting the words of this Christmas song.

I will check, and if you could check for me too it would be appreciated. Certainly I have no aim to do anything out of accord. My concern is not for the words of a song, as the words are not living. My concern is for the people who are singing them without knowing why.

[edit on 13-10-2006 by saint4God]

by saint4God
O Christmas Tree rewritten as pagan.

There's a movement (conspiracy?) to make Christian things non-Christian. Here's one example.

The German Christmas Hymn "Oh Christmas Tree"

OK...so how did the Christmas Tree become Christian in the first place? It seems odd as a Christian symbol, so perhaps a Christian movement (conspiracy) conspired to make pagan things Christian, turning the opening lines of the saint4God's opening post on its head.

In order to look at anything which reaches so far back into history, we need to focus on particular cultures. There are two which are most pertinant to this discussion...Rome and the British Isles. Both of these societies began in paganism and wound up becoming Christian...

...and both of them took the evergreen as a symbol from their pagan roots and winter solstice celebrations, later to embrace them within their Christian celebrations on December 25.

What ties them both together is the holly tree.

The Holly as 'Evergreen'

There's no doubt that holly figures largely in the Christmas tradition across many nationalities and customs, from Europe to the Americas. Why is that and how does it relate to evergreens and the history of Chrismas?

Since we're debating the changing of the lyrics in Oh, Tannenbaum and how such measures may influence concern within Christiandom, perhaps we should look back at the roots of the carols themselves and how some songs changed as the Church of Rome became the
force of change in pagan Europe.

Let's keep focussed on Rome and the British Isles by looking at another carol which uses a tree; the Holly-Tree Carol;

(note: all boldings within external quotes are mine)

ww2.netnitco.net...

The Holly and the Ivy
The holly and the ivy,
When they are both full grown,
Of all the trees that are in the wood,
The holly bears the crown.

The rising of the sun
And the running of the deer,
The playing of the merry organ,
Sweet singing in the choir.

The holly bears a blossom
As white as the lily flower,
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ
To be our sweet savior.

The holly bears a berry
As red as any blood,
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ
To do poor sinners good.

The holly bears a prickle
As sharp as any thorn
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ
On Christmas day in the morn.

The holly bears a bark
As bitter as any gall,
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ
For to redeem us all.

The holly and the ivy,
When they are both full grown,
Of all the trees that are in the wood
The holly bears the crown.

So, what does this have to do with Oh, Tannenbaum? Well, they both relate trees to the Christmas story, don't they? You'll note, if you follow the link, that there is also a statement written above the song which mentions Saturnalia, an ancient pagan practice of preChristian Rome:

Romans gave gifts of holly to their friends during Saturnalia as good luck charms and protection against evil. Because of all these superstitions, early Christians were forbidden to decorate with this plant, especially during Saturnalia.

Interesting...so, apparently, if this comment is correct, as Christanity became an acceptable religion in its earliest days, the use of holly as a part of the December solstice celebration was adopted by those early Christians.

So, what was this thing about trees which figured so prominently in the preChristian era?

www.kirbymountain.com...

The Irish Tree Alphabet (information compiled by Eric Rosenbloom)

Letter Name Tree Calendar Meaning
B Beit, Beth, Beith, Bethe Birch January
L Luis Quicken, Rowan, Juniper, Mountain Ash January-February swarm
N Nuin, Nion Ash February-March
F Fearn Alder March-April shield
S Sail, Saille, Suil Willow April-May beam, eye, opening, sight
H Uat, Uath Whitethorn, Hawthorn May-June
D Dair, Duir Oak June rutting
T Teitne, Tinne, Teine Furze, Holly July fire
C Coll, Call, Calltuinn Hazel August
M Muin Vine September to piss, to teach
G Gat, Gort, Gart Ivy October garden, vineyard, enclosed field, standing corn
P Peit, Pethboc (Beith-bhog, soft B) Dwarf Elder November originally Ñ (Ngetal: Reed)
R Ruir, Ruis Elder, Alder December

A Ailm Elm, Silver Fir, Palm Winter Solstice
O Oir, Onn Broom, Furze (conas, conasg) Spring Equinox border, strife
U Ur Heath, Heather Summer Solstice new
E Eadad, Eadha, Eubh Aspen, White Poplar Autumn Equinox death watch,
tingle in ear portending death
I Ioda, Idho, Iubhar, Ibar Yew, Ivy Winter Solstice

Notes.

There are 13 consonants and 5 vowels. Each consonant represents 28 days of the calendar, starting after the winter solstice. The Celtic feast days Oimelc, Beltane, Lunasa, and Samhain would occur, respectively, in the middle of Luis, the middle of Sail, the start of Muin, and the start of Peit.

The first variations listed above for name and tree are from Patrick Dinneen's An Irish-English Dictionary. The source for the calendar order is Robert Graves's The White Goddess. The normal order of the letters in the alphabet follows the Latin.

Correspondences to Hebrew should be noted: alef/ailm, beth/beit, he/eadha, yod/ioda, mem/muin, nun/nuin, 'ayin/onn, pe/peit, resh/ruis.

Whoa...now we're getting somewhere! Trees had more than just a symbolic meaning. In the earliest days they were a way to become literate... an aid to writing. This practice predates Christianity across much of western Europe.

There's much to glean from this, but, in order to stay on topic, let's look at T Teitne, Tinne, Teine Furze, Holly July fire, since it pertains to the evergreen holly.

In the Romance of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight the story begins at Christmas, the festivities being well under way in the court of Arthur, the legendary king. Suddenly an awesome figure, dressed all in green enters into the court. The description of this amazing giant is quite long and interesting, but one bit pertains to the topic here. Once again holly is intwined with Christmas.

I'll try to keep it brief

from Sir Gawain and the Green Knight by Penguin Classics (Author unknown)

Such a horse, such a horseman, in the whole wide world
was never seen or observed by those assembled before,
Not one.
Lightning swift he seemed
And swift to strike and stun
His dreadful blows, men deemed,
Once dealt, meant death was done.

Yet hauberk and helmet he had none,
Nor plastron nor plate-armour proper to combat,
Nor shield for shoving, nor sharp spears for lunging;
But he held a holly cluster in one hand,holly
That is the greenest when groves are gaunt and bare
And an axe in his other hand, huge and monstrous,

If you want to know what happens between Sir Gawain and this huge man clad all in green, like an old time Jolly Green Giant, you'll just have to read the book. The pertinent fact is that the Green Knight represents the Druidic culture, defeated by the good Christian Sir Gawain. The holly cluster held in his hand is meaningful indeed...especially at Christmas, when pagan solstice ritual celebrations and the birth of Christ coincide and collide.

I'm turning now to one of the most interesting books written in the last century; The White Goddess by Robert Graves. In it, on pages 174 to 175, he touches upon that letter in the Tree Alphabet and also uses The Holly Tree Carol as an example of the meaning of trees in pagan, druidic times and how they became incorporated into the Christian traditions.

from The White Goddess by Robert Graves (faber and faber)

Of all the trees that are in the wood
The holly bears the crown.

-a sentiment that derives from the Song of the Forest Trees: 'Of all trees whatsoever the critically best is holly. 'In each stanza of the carol, with its apt chorus about 'the rising of the sun, the running of the deer', some property of the tree is equated with the birth or passion of Jesus: the whiteness of the flower, the redness of the berry, the sharpness of the prickles, the bitterness of the bark. Holly means 'holy'.

So, there is the tie between the pagan solstice and the Christian birth of Jesus, represented through the symbol of the holly tree.

The spread of Roman Empire began to affect Britain in 55BC when Ceasar began the campaign there, but did not end until 43AD, nearly a century later, when the Emporer Cladius accepted the surrender of the 11 British Tribal Kings.

Now here's the interesting bit...

www.camelotintl.com...

The secret behind the Roman occupation of Britain lay in their tolerance of other religions and the fact that they allowed the tribal chiefs to remain in power but as "governors" for the Romans. This self development gave the people of Britain the opportunity to become accustomed to the Romans while still retaining the life they had been used to for most of their lives. For example Roman law took precedence but where possible the Romans adopted the local laws as their own and meted out the punishment in accordance with the British traditions.

Could it be that those pagan Romans didn't mind much that certain Druidic practices would be allowed to continue...including the reverence paid to trees? Druids are to trees as todays teens are to rock concerts, imho.

Not only was holly allowed to remain as a symbol, but the Romans adopted it within their own culture as a symbol of power.

So, to tie this all up in a bundle, I would say that the lyrics of 'Oh, Tannenbaum' are being changed to reflect the true history of the Germanic tribes.

And, if it matters at all to us recent colonists of the Americas, then they should immediately show their dismay by petitioning the people of Germany and attempting to contain this return to their roots and undermining that conspiracy.

Otherwise, you may as well go carolling in the streets of America, singing "Oh, Chrismas Tree" at the top of your lungs using the words which you desire to cling to.

I'll be happy enough to snip a bit of holly from the bush by my front door and hang that sprig to remind me of the promised return of the sun.

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Spelling and image angst
[edit on 13-10-2006 by masqua]

[edit on 13-10-2006 by masqua]