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O Christmas Tree rewritten as pagan.

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posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 03:16 PM
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Have you ever sung the song "Deck the Halls"? That's a Christmas song, right? Go ahead, sing it....




posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 03:17 PM
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saint, you are an amazing person.
For some reason, you always totally miss the point Im trying to make.

This is totally hillarious!!!


Dude, have a good life man, I doubt we will talk much more as obviously you dont get where Im coming from at all. But that is life...

i.e. the point of the Christmas tree...your the one that started the topic.
Who cares if the words are changing to put Christ out...point is, Christmas tree has nothing to do with Christ, so why sweat about it. Slow down, think about whats being said...

Peace

Dalen

[edit on 6-10-2006 by dAlen]


Cug

posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 03:18 PM
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saint4God, If someone sings the "new" version does that harm you in any way?

If you want you can sing whatever you want on Crowleymas next Thursday



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 03:41 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God

I wish to see your definitive source.


www.religioustolerance.org...
www.serve.com...


All that I've read says no one knows the origin of the Christmas tree...but with the name CHRISTmas, I would imagine this particular tree was used for the purpose as the song I'd posted suggests.


In English, its Christmas. However, English is not the only language in the world.

The Christmas Tree of modern days originated in Germany. The German word for Christmas tree is Tannenbaum, which means fir tree in German. Fir tree does not signify Christian. The medieval germans simply took an ancient pagan custom of their forefathers and adopted it to the new religon.

The Original song was O Tannenbaum, which was later translated into English, and renamed O Christmas Tree.



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 03:47 PM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
The medieval germans simply took an ancient pagan custom of their forefathers and adopted it to the new religon.



Which was why the Israelites were not suppose to intermarry in the first place. It had nothing to do with race, it had to do with not mixing beliefs. I bet we have so many things mix in now.... it would take forever to figure it out.



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 03:47 PM
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saint4god you do seem strangely ignorant about a subject in which you profess to be expert.

Many pagan symbols / festivals were hijacked to popularise / legitimise christianity - holy & ivy, fir trees, easter bunny, etc etc.

I'd be interested in your explanation for the prevelance of yew trees in churchyards, the Green Man etc featuring in catherdral architecture in England




Also while we're on this subject who appointed you 'saint'? I thought only Popes could do that after evidence of a miracle? If you see your role in life to spread the belief in your god shouldn't it be 'pilgrim' rather than 'saint'



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 03:53 PM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Originally posted by saint4God

I wish to see your definitive source.


www.religioustolerance.org...
www.serve.com...


Sorry, but a source is not definitive when it uses phrases like "Legends about the first Christmas tree abound"


Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
In English, its Christmas. However, English is not the only language in the world.


I hope everyone already knew this.


Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
The Christmas Tree of modern days originated in Germany. The German word for Christmas tree is Tannenbaum, which means fir tree in German. Fir tree does not signify Christian.


Per legend you'd linked, many think it came from Martin Luthers tradition. Aka, we don't know.


Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
The medieval germans simply took an ancient pagan custom of their forefathers and adopted it to the new religon.


Big leap, lacking support


Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
The Original song was O Tannenbaum, which was later translated into English, and renamed O Christmas Tree.


The links I've posted say the same, but it doesn't change the lyrics. Unless you're suggesting that the English traslation of the lyrics is incorrect?

[edit on 6-10-2006 by saint4God]



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 03:55 PM
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Originally posted by Strangerous

Also while we're on this subject who appointed you 'saint'? I thought only Popes could do that after evidence of a miracle? If you see your role in life to spread the belief in your god shouldn't it be 'pilgrim' rather than 'saint'


That only applies to Catholics. The Pope has no say or authority in matters of anything in Protestant churches.

In many Protestant denominations, the term saint refers to a devoted believer in Jesus who work to further the gospel and lives a life as best as possible.



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 03:56 PM
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havent read the whole thread but the name of it, made me laugh,

- Rewritten as pagan -

ahaha thats comedy gold, I mean it was originally pagan, christians stole the dates and traditions of many pagan festivities



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by Strangerous
saint4god you do seem strangely ignorant about a subject in which you profess to be expert.


What have I professed to be an expert in?


Originally posted by Strangerous
Many pagan symbols / festivals were hijacked to popularise / legitimise christianity - holy & ivy, fir trees, easter bunny, etc etc.


I'm familiar with what are and are not pagan symbols. I know how and why some paganism was integrated and disagree with it happening at all.


Originally posted by Strangerous
I'd be interested in your explanation for the prevelance of yew trees in churchyards, the Green Man etc featuring in catherdral architecture in England


Green Man is an interesting story, perhaps we can discuss on another thread sometime. The Cathedral architecture while beautiful, I think is questionable when it comes to gargoyles. Yew trees will take some looking into, but I don't own a churchyard nor know of one that has one.


Originally posted by Strangerous
Also while we're on this subject who appointed you 'saint'?


Definition is in the Bible, I didn't make it up. If you want to go by Merriam-Webster's definition 3a, I'm down with that too. Although Skadi is on point too:



In many Protestant denominations, the term saint refers to a devoted believer in Jesus who work to further the gospel and lives a life as best as possible.


Well said! Better than I could do



Originally posted by Strangerous
I thought only Popes could do that after evidence of a miracle?


I go by the Bible for the definition.


Originally posted by Strangerous
If you see your role in life to spread the belief in your god shouldn't it be 'pilgrim' rather than 'saint'


I'm not a pilgrim because I rarely travel, nor am I an English colonist, etc. saint is a job, but it also describes who I am.

[edit on 6-10-2006 by saint4God]



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 04:07 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Sorry, but a source is not definitive when it uses phrases like "Legends about the first Christmas tree abound"


because the Christmas tree did not originate with one single source. The act of decorating evergreens for winter solstices comes from a multitude of pre-Christian pagan cultures. Did you even bother reading the whole thing?



Per legend you'd linked, many think it came from Martin Luthers tradition. Aka, we don't know.


Martin Luther was a German. In pre-Christian Germany, evergreen trees were holy symbols of natural renewal. Ancient Germans, the ancestors of Martin Luther, decorated evergreen trees and put sacrifices on and under them. At the same time of the year as Luther started his. Its quite easy to see the lineage here. Do the math. Luther's tree was a watered down version of something more ancient.


Big leap, lacking support


I think not. Its simply tracing lineage of a custom that changed faces and gods.


The links I've posted say the same, but it doesn't change the lyrics. Unless you're suggesting that the English traslation of the lyrics is incorrect?

[edit on 6-10-2006 by saint4God]


Well, if you compare them side by side, German and English translations, youll see the English translation has several differences. The biggest being Tannenbaum (fir tree) in German becomes Christmas Tree in English.

What do fir trees have to do with Christs birth anyway?



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 04:20 PM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Well, if you compare them side by side, German and English translations, youll see the English translation has several differences. The biggest being Tannenbaum (fir tree) in German becomes Christmas Tree in English.




dat is de leve Gott,


What's this word here in O Tannenbaum? What does Gott mean in English?


Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
What do fir trees have to do with Christs birth anyway?


There are various legends about this. Some say it was because Christ gave us the gift of eternal life to those who believe, as represented as "evergreen" but that's not my contention. My assertion is the hymn O Christmas Tree or O Tannenbaum has been changed. That's the topic, that's what I'm looking to explore.



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 04:24 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
There's a movement (conspiracy?) to make Christian things non-Christian. Here's one example.



Exactly which part of Christianity does Santa Clause fit in? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Christian parents teaching their children that all sin is equal in weight of being evil, and yet homosexuality is a sin, but lying to their children about the existance of a powerful human being who can perform miracles and grant them rewards for being good and punish them for being evil, by teaching them about Santa Clause is ok?

[edit on 6-10-2006 by DJMessiah]



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 04:27 PM
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Originally posted by DJMessiah
Exactly which part of Christianity does Santa Clause fit in?


Saint Nicholas was a man who was charitable, giving gifts to celebrate Christ, but that's a story for another thread.


Originally posted by DJMessiah
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Christian parents teaching their children that all sin is equal in weight of being evil, and yet homosexuality is a sin, but lying to their children about the existance of a powerful human being who can perform miracles and grant them rewards for being good and punish them for being evil, by teaching them about Santa Clause is ok?


I agree a lie is a lie. Children deserve the truth, that there's no man in a sleigh dropping down chimneys. So...how bout the actual topic?



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 04:28 PM
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Saint only replys to posts that don't sway her belief in the misconceptions her church teaches her. Don't expect her to respond to this post because it may expose the fact that she's not the saint she thinks she is. I still don't think she has ever heard the song "Deck the Halls".

By the way, even though I am Christian (and actually because I am) I never lied to my daughter and told her there was a Santa. Didn't want to start out her life lying to her.



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 04:28 PM
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WELL ?

the only one which springs to mind is ............

christmas cards [ origin 19th century UK ]

any others - which were exclusivly developed by christians , FOR christmas ?



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 04:46 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God


What's this word here in O Tannenbaum? What does Gott mean in English?


Gott is god, of course. The title of the song, however, is Tannenbaum. Fir Tree. What exactly is your objective here?


There are various legends about this. Some say it was because Christ gave us the gift of eternal life to those who believe, as represented as "evergreen" but that's not my contention. My assertion is the hymn O Christmas Tree or O Tannenbaum has been changed. That's the topic, that's what I'm looking to explore.


Legends. Things men made up.

In the bible, I see no reference to Christs Birth and fir trees, holly, ect (probably because these things were not native to the area). In fact, I see no association with Christs Birth and wintertime. Especially around the time of the winter solstice.

I also see in the bible no commands or requests to celebrate OR remember his birth. In fact, the only thing Christ commanded his followers to do in rememberance is the Last Supper, the consuming of bread and wine in rememberance of his sacrifice.

Yet you yourself have stated the date Christmas is celebrated on is a pagan rip off. To appease the townsfolk, who already had a pagan celebration (birth of the sun, birth of a god, birth of a king,..hmmmmmmmmmmmm) on that day. There was no original Christian celebration of Christmas in the early days of the church. Probably because it was not a virtue or part of the original Christian faith.

Customs adopted later for Christmas were adopted from former pagan traditions.

The evergreen tree at the celebration of Yule as a symbol of everlasting life long pre-dated Christianity, as well as the custom of decorating and sacrificing to these trees. This was because evergreen trees, unlike other plants, survived the bitter cold and snows of the winter with their leaves intact. Thus, the ancients thought of it as having magical powers or spirits that could resist death itself. Holly, gift giving, feasting, celebrations, are other customs that are done at Christmas that are taken from Pagan customs.

The only thing that changed was the gods that the winter holidays were dedicated to.



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 04:56 PM
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Well, in this case, "O Tannenbaum" (the original song) was actually penned as a Christmas religious song in the 1500's. It's loosely based on an older folk melody:
en.wikipedia.org...

It's not uncommon for Pagans to filk off tunes... this is another one, methinks. I doubt it will catch on to any extent.



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Saint Nicholas was a man who was charitable, giving gifts to celebrate Christ, but that's a story for another thread.


So you're saying that the same Santa Clause that parents tell their kids about, living in the North Pole, is a man who lived from the 4th century named Saint Nicholas of Myra? Amazing how much health care has advanced to keep someone alive for over 1700 years.


I agree a lie is a lie. Children deserve the truth, that there's no man in a sleigh dropping down chimneys. So...how bout the actual topic?


Notice I did not deviate from the topic. Your creation of the topic was to address in your own words a "movement (conspiracy?) to make Christian things non-Christian." Santa Clause is one of the major idols of Christmas, in which many Christian parents teach their kids to attribute him to a "Christ" like figure, almost as a diety, and this same figure is being removed from Christmas decorations in public places.



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 05:01 PM
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Again, I must ask..


What does it matter, you're just overanalyzing it.

Who cares where it came from exactly, it's a tradition that has become
associated with Chrismas (purposefully left out the "t").

I mean is'nt the purpose of CHRISTmas to celebrate the birth of Christ,
and peace on Earth, and goodwill to your fellow person?


And you don't have to be Christian to celebrate Chrismas, I do, and I'm
a Theran-Agnostic.

Also, I personally agree with Skadi's research on the origin of the
Chrismas tree.



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