O Christmas Tree rewritten as pagan.

There's a movement (conspiracy?) to make Christian things non-Christian. Here's one example.

The German Christmas Hymn "Oh Christmas Tree" goes as follows:

O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
Thy leaves are so unchanging;
O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
Thy leaves are so unchanging;
Not only green when summer's here,
But also when 'tis cold and drear.
O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
Thy leaves are so unchanging!

O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
Much pleasure thou can'st give me;
O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
Much pleasure thou can'st give me;
How often has the Christmas tree
Afforded me the greatest glee!
O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
Much pleasure thou can'st give me.

O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
Thy candles shine so brightly!
O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
Thy candles shine so brightly!
From base to summit, gay and bright,
There's only splendor for the sight.
O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
Thy candles shine so brightly!

O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
How richly God has decked thee!
O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
How richly God has decked thee!
Thou bidst us true and faithful be,
And trust in God unchangingly.
O Christmas Tree! O Christmas Tree!
How richly God has decked thee! !"

www.carols.org.uk...

...but with the stroke of a pagan pen it becomes...

O Christmas Tree
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree!
How are thy leaves so verdant!
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
How are thy leaves so verdant!

Not only in the summertime,
But even in winter is thy prime.
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
How are thy leaves so verdant!

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Much pleasure doth thou bring me!
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Much pleasure doth thou bring me!

For every year the Christmas tree,
Brings to us all both joy and glee.
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Much pleasure doth thou bring me!

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Thy candles shine out brightly!
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Thy candles shine out brightly!

Each bough doth hold its tiny light,
That makes each toy to sparkle bright.
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Thy candles shine out brightly!

washingtonmo.com...

It may as well say "O Golden Calf, O Golden Calf". It is no wonder a pagan would think Christmas is about a tree and presents.

[edit on 6-10-2006 by saint4God]

saint 4 god,

Im sorry if this does not fit in with your belief system. Im afraid to let you Know that as well as the christmass tree, the date of 25th dec, the easter "ressurrection" and many many other practised christian holidays do have in fact their original sources in "Pagan" or seperate religeous belief systems that have been practised for many many many centuries before christ was even born.

There is much evidense from archeogical remains in the UK and especially in the russian and germanic steppes that early man was using trees though usually a differant one for each month in their worship of a "nature" form. Infact the druids were using OAK trees and also its believed birch on the dates around 25th demcember some 500 - 600 years BCE. In addition the time of easter is traditionally associated with the spring solstice and the celebrations that man took then in temperate climates to celebrate nature and life "raising from the dead".

If you look back to UR and also the Babylonian cultures and those proceeding them you will find that maybe 2000 years BCE or earlier they also had a god who gave his son to the world "the sun of god" as they worshipped the sun, in addition these saviours on earth had to die or be sacrificed for mankinds sins.

Im sorry but most of christianity is just a old belief remarketed.

Regards

elf.

Just the very act of Christmas is starting to burden my heart. What do we do as Christians about Christamas in lou of reading scriptures like this:

Jeremiah 10:1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
2: Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3: For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4: They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

KJV Bible

Is this not what we do with the Christmas tree? How convicting is that? How do you stop doing something that you've just been told is Pagan, when everyone in your family would have a heart attack if you stopped doing? These are things that I personaly struggle with.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
saint 4 god,

Im sorry if this does not fit in with your belief system. Im afraid to let you Know that as well as the christmass tree,

Everyone should know tree-worship is part of a separate religion (and do not intend on going there on this thread). As far as the Christmas tree in particular, many consider the source to be Martin Luther - leader of the Protestant Reformation. Whether this is true or not is unknown.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
the date of 25th dec,

This was an agreed upon date by Christians and non-Christians to satify the townfolk. Since the date is not particularly relevant (you see, Christians don't worship numbers) there wasn't great objection to the change.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
the easter

Ishtar is a separate discussion.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
"ressurrection"

Hey, now we're getting Biblical. We can talk about this more, but it's not the topic of conversation.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
and many many other practised christian holidays

...which are not being discussed on this thread...

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
do have in fact their original sources in "Pagan" or seperate religeous belief systems that have been practised for many many many centuries before christ was even born.

Great. Make a thread, we'll talk.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
There is much evidense from archeogical remains in the UK and especially in the russian and germanic steppes that early man was using trees though usually a differant one for each month in their worship of a "nature" form. Infact the druids were using OAK trees and also its believed birch on the dates around 25th demcember some 500 - 600 years BCE.

This could account for the folks who changed the hymn from Christian to pagan.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
In addition the time of easter is traditionally associated with the spring solstice and the celebrations that man took then in temperate climates to celebrate nature and life "raising from the dead".

Different discussion for a different thread. I don't mind talking about it, just not here where there's a separate topic going on.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
If you look back to UR and also the Babylonian cultures and those proceeding them you will find that maybe 2000 years BCE or earlier they also had a god who gave his son to the world "the sun of god" as they worshipped the sun, in addition these saviours on earth had to die or be sacrificed for mankinds sins.

Not only is this a separate topic, but one already addressed at length on another thread. In fact, all these points you've brought up already have. I have no reason to be repetitious or follow rabbit trails here.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
Im sorry but most of christianity is just a old belief remarketed.

I'm sorry, but you're not any help to the topic at hand nor demonstrated a researched understanding of Christianity or valid argument thereof.

P.S. "The sun of God" is English wordplay, not Hebrew nor Greek understanding of these words.

Well jenouth31, here's my .02 which you can completely ignore with no offense to me-

By all means, don't let it burden your heart. Enjoy the season for what it is, a beautiful time of families and getting together and music and food and children's wonder and enjoyment. If there's something wrong with that, then lock me up.

Just recognize that there's a difference between the whole tree-mistletoe-holly-yule log celebration and Christ. I don't see why they need to be mutually exclusive. I try (sometimes failing miserably) to keep Christ in my heart all year. I see no point at all in feeling guilty about a joyful celebration in December.

Sing the song any way you want.

>puts on helmet, runs away<

yeahright, no offence taken. Your .02 is exactly what we do every year...even though I feel guilty because I know it has pagan roots.

And??? "Pagan roots" also can just mean "tradition going back a long way". It's what's in your heart that counts. You're allowed to have fun, I promise. I mean, you're not conciously worshipping a pagan god when you decorate your tree, are you? I'm guessing not. Put up the tree, hang a wreath, light some candles, have the family over. It's all good.

I could build a case (which I don't believe) that the entire idea of celebrating Christmas at all, is wrong. Although I don't recall seeing anything in the Bible that mandates, suggests, supports, or otherwise condones the celebration of Jesus's birth.

Be good to yourself, love your neighbor, be a good friend/parent/spouse. We know the message. If you look hard enough, you can always find a reason to feel guilty or sad. And there are plenty of people more than willing to look for you, if you'll let them.

So celebrate away. I'll happily be right there with you and not a guilty moment over it will I have. I promise.

Ok, so maybe this question is only obvious to me.

Does it really matter, I mean if you're Christian, it really should'nt
matter what small things you celebrate the season with, what it's sup-
pose to mean within Christianity is the celebration of the birth of Christ,
and goodwill towards your fellow-person.

I mean really, what does it matter, there are very few celebrations in
Chrisitanity that don't have roots in some older belief, or non-religious
tradition.


I mean when it comes own to it, Christianity is based on older religions.
But that's the topic of another thread.

saint 4 god

well aren’t we a bit touchy on this?

I’m afraid if you take your statement

I'm sorry, but you're not any help to the topic at hand nor demonstrated a researched understanding of Christianity or valid argument thereof.

and look at what I said first this is non sensical. There is no I mean none and please show me some historical proof that Jesus ever lived.

In addition to this as the practise of using Christmas trees on the date used by Christians today to celebrate Christ’s birth, and you are trying to posit that "pagans" are trying to change the carol...well that’s simply a little naive, as the original source of the tree was pagan pre Christ anyhow.

saint 4 god please do not make statements on my religious knowledge when you do not know anything about me. I am not making statements that are not researched. I was educated in a very very formal Roman Catholic school by Monks of the De La Salle order. I went to mass every morning till I was 14 yrs old. I have supported the local Bishop of the time as an senior altar boy in occasions such as weddings, funerals and even Christmas.

In addition when I was forced to even though language is very much my weak area I have read the bible in its original Latin translation, and the Greek originals, as written some 400- 500 yrs after Christ supposedly died. I truly have found and met only a handful of other people in my life that had this sort of education and upbringing.

I truly do not come from a position of lack of "research" but many many many years of it that I did after being brainwashed by organised religion.

Please show me one piece of proof for Christ’s existence. I will be happy to list the hundreds of actual evidence for the manipulation of the previous beliefs held that resulted in the "spin" that became Christianity.

You state this shouldn’t be discussed here, but as far as I can see Christians are pagans as their beliefs stem from there anyhow. I’ve also never known a Pagan crusade, and I believe I will actually sing your nice pagan version on December 25th

Elf.


[edit on 6-10-2006 by MischeviousElf]

Originally posted by jensouth31
yeahright, no offence taken. Your .02 is exactly what we do every year...even though I feel guilty because I know it has pagan roots.

Whoa hey! CHRISTmas does not have pagan roots. Even if one were to argue that tree worship came before the CHRISTmas tree, who made the tree? As you'd quoted, God does not want us to worship the creation, but rather the Creator.

You'd mentioned being burdened by these things, but a few things to keep in perspective. I'd ask why you're feeling burdened and how you can rectify it. Prayer always helps. The purpose of this thread (via this one example) is for us as Christians to take a step back, look at what we're doing and ask why we're doing them. If you sing "O Holy Night", is that worshipping God? If the words are in your heart, I think so. If you sing, "Jingle Bells" is that worshipping God?

Paul tells believers this when discussing freedom in Christ: "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive." - 1 Corinthians 10:23. As believers, are we allowed to have a Christmas tree? Without a doubt. Should we? That is the harder question. But! Here is an easy one. In singing "O Christmas Tree", what lyrics should WE sing? I know I'm not going to by hijacked by pagan secularisms.

[edit on 6-10-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by jensouth31
yeahright, no offence taken. Your .02 is exactly what we do every year...even though I feel guilty because I know it has pagan roots.

Whoa hey! CHRISTmas does not have pagan roots.

I'm pretty sure she meant the tree has pagan roots (no pun intended). Sorry I think I veered a little off-topic with my mini-rant. Just really saddens me to see people stressing over something that should be a good thing. IMO. Anyway, press on.

Originally posted by yeahright
I'm pretty sure she meant the tree has pagan roots (no pun intended).

but it was funny nonetheless. Again though, I think it has more to do with paganism's "staking claim" on things they don't own...like "O Christmas Tree" lyrics per topic I'd opened with. In fifty years, who knows, maybe they'll say that the Christmas lyrics never existed or were changed versions of theirs. It has happened since "In the beginning" according to the Old Testament.

Originally posted by yeahright
Sorry I think I veered a little off-topic with my mini-rant. Just really saddens me to see people stressing over something that should be a good thing. IMO. Anyway, press on.

I agree we should not stress at all. Some supports:

"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?
"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself." - Matthew 6:25-34

"God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day." - Colossians 2:13b-17

[edit on 6-10-2006 by saint4God]

Saint4God

The Christmas tree is not Christian, has never been Christian and will never be Christian.

As Jeremiah 10 says, learn not the way of the people.


By the way, they are not worshipping the tree, butwho the tree stands for.

Yes, Saint4God, I have to agree with the others. Christmas does have pagan roots. It was a pagan holiday called Yule (ever heard of the Yule log? Yuletide greetings?) You can justify it all you want in your mind, but that's not going to change the fact that this was something that was observed, and still is, by pagans. Do some real research, you might be surprised by what you find.

Originally posted by closettrekkie
Yes, Saint4God, I have to agree with the others. Christmas does have pagan roots. It was a pagan holiday called Yule (ever heard of the Yule log? Yuletide greetings?) You can justify it all you want in your mind, but that's not going to change the fact that this was something that was observed, and still is, by pagans. Do some real research, you might be surprised by what you find.

There's a difference between roots and consolidation. I'm familiar with Yule and the history thereof. Christ was not son of a Yule log, nor did the early Christian church give each other yuletide greetings. Are you familiar with "In the Beginning God created..."? In all fairness, there is the root. The perversions thereafter are our own fault. If pagans want to have their holyday, fine, just leave mine alone just as they ask I leave theirs alone.

[edit on 6-10-2006 by saint4God]

Saint, I think you misunderstood. I am not a pagan, I am a Christian and have pointed out that you may be wrong about Christmas. Pagans didn't pervert Christmas. Christians started observing Yule as Christ's b-day so that pagans would convert to Christianity and still be able to observe their pagan holy day. I'm glad you have such a strong faith, but having faith doesn't mean you can't question what your church teaches. Where in the bible does it say to celebrate Jesus's birth? In fact I seem to remember a scripture that says something like celebrate not my birth, but my death.

Doubt its a conspiracy. NOt sure anyone wants to take over any religion.
After all what does Christmas tree have to do with a baby laying in the manger? (not much really, oh unless the "3" wise man layed there gifts at the tree in the manger.)

Fact is, not everyone is a christian, and people have been celebrating Christmas apart from the Christians for sometime.

Christ birth Dec. 25 is actually incorrect (that is if he even existed) and borrowed from other people.

sounds like the conspiracy is on the other end. Perhaps Christians are trying to make everything Christian.

Who knows...

Peace

Dalen

I think its appropriate. The Christmas tree is after all, a pagan symbol. Used by the ancient Germanics in their Yule celebrations. Adopted by Christians much later.

But the Christmas Tree is definitely pagan.

Originally posted by dAlen
Doubt its a conspiracy. NOt sure anyone wants to take over any religion.

Remember that when addressing "Zionist Christians" (see Tryptamines and God thread)

Originally posted by dAlen
After all what does Christmas tree have to do with a baby laying in the manger?

Absolutely nothing! Unless there's a piece of education I'm missing.

Originally posted by dAlen
(not much really, oh unless the "3" wise man

layed there gifts at the tree in the manger.)

That's the reason for giving gifts, I didn't know there was a tree in the manger.

Originally posted by dAlen
Fact is, not everyone is a christian,

Well aware of that, thanks.

Originally posted by dAlen
and people have been celebrating Christmas apart from the Christians for sometime.

Why? Why would anyone celebrate CHRISTmas, the birth of Christ, who do not believe in Christ?

Originally posted by dAlen
Christ birth Dec. 25 is actually incorrect (that is if he even existed) and borrowed from other people.

It was a consolidated date, this we we're pretty well familiar with.

Originally posted by dAlen
sounds like the conspiracy is on the other end.

Why am I not surprised?

Originally posted by dAlen
Perhaps Christians are trying to make everything Christian.

Who knows...

Peace

Dalen

Are Christians taking pagan worship songs and turning the lyrics into Christian Hymns? Bring'em forth, let's have a looksee.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
I think its appropriate. The Christmas tree is after all, a pagan symbol. Used by the ancient Germanics in their Yule celebrations. Adopted by Christians much later.

But the Christmas Tree is definitely pagan.

I wish to see your definitive source.

All that I've read says no one knows the origin of the Christmas tree...but with the name CHRISTmas, I would imagine this particular tree was used for the purpose as the song I'd posted suggests. The song does not say, "O Yule Log" and for good reason, nor do the lyrics take yule-log worshipping and change it into something else.