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Bush's Fight with Congress over Torture Defines Our Character

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posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 01:55 PM
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President Bush is trying to adjust or change laws and rules in the War Crimes Act, the Geneva Convention, The Bill of Rights, and The Constitution. This is so that torture could be used to gain information from the "war on terror" prisoners and prisoners of war and so that these prisoners can be kept almost indefinetly with no trial and be tortured legally.
 



www.alternet.org
The President's proposal seeks to roll back two important decisions rendered by the Supreme Court on the legal rights and treatment of terror suspects: Hamdan v. Rumsfeld and Rasul v. Bush. It would establish tribunals at Guantánamo that would deny the most basic legal protections required by the Geneva Conventions, allow the use of hearsay evidence and evidence obtained by coercion, and allow defendants to be convicted on the basis of evidence they had never seen.

It also guts much of the War Crimes Act, which makes it a federal crime for an American to commit "grave violations" of the Geneva Conventions. While the Administration claims it is concerned about protecting CIA interrogators, its bill would also protect mercenaries and top government officials from prosecution. And it would apply retroactively to September 11, 2001.

The Senate Armed Services Committee bill, in contrast, aims to establish Guantánamo tribunals in accordance with the standards set out in the Supreme Court's Hamdan decision. And it would leave much more of the War Crimes Act intact. Nonetheless, the Warner bill has some significant flaws.




Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


The Constitution and the Bill of Rights are what the President of the United States has sworn to uphold and defend for the people. Know the President is acting like these documents don't apply to everybody, which they do. Among theses rights and laws that are being threatened, to name a few are the right to a fair trial without secret evidence, or evidence recieved by torture or coersion, and the right to a speedy trial.

In The Declaration of Independence, The second paragragh states that "all men are created equal;that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights: among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Some of the reasons given in the Declaration of Independence as to why the United States was seeking its independence, He has made judges dependent on his will alone, For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefit of trial by jury, For transporting us beyond seas to be tried for pretended offenses. These are a few of the reasons why the Declaration of Independence was written. Now, we are doing the same things that our forefathers revolted against.

The rights of military prisoners are the same as our rights, I believe until they are convicted. They have a right not to be held indefinitely without being charged, they have a right to a speedy trial, and protected from "secret evidence" and coerced evidence, and heresay from being used against them. The world used to think ot the USA as having high morals and being fair, these proposed changes the President is trying get passed will definitely change the worlds opinion of the USA. I think our forefathers are probably rolling over in their graves right now.



[edit on 17/9/06 by Keyhole]

[edit on 17-9-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

[edit on 17-9-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]




posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 02:36 PM
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The administration has been trying to ge away with to many things up to now, is about time that somebody held this administration responsible for many things.

It has to stop, we can not allow the president to act like a dictator anymore.



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 02:51 PM
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This is America going backwards instead of forward. The some of the things that the President is trying to get passed are mentioned in the Declaration of Independce as grievances and reasons why our forefathers were seeking our countries independence and why the United States of America came into existence.

I'm sure the King of England thought his laws were just and right also! I think the President should re-read that document!



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 02:52 PM
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I just want to say it does NOT define OUR character. It might define SOMEBODY's character, but it doesn't define MINE.



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 03:02 PM
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This is the way people from other countries will define our governments character. And due to the fact the American people are letting this happen, I'm sure it is the way they percieve our character.

They will see this as what the majority of Americans want, even if it isn't, I do believe.


apc

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 03:54 PM
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Maybe this is happening because the majority feels torture is applicable and justified?

Personally, I'm quite content with our enemy being tortured to gain information rather than watching that same enemy cut the throats of captured soldiers on national television.

Know what happens when you don't take advantage of an enemy because you feel it is morally or ethically wrong? You lose.

To think we as a nation are "above" torture is true arrogance. The history of nations much older than ours shows that torture is just, and often required during a time of war. And this is a time of war.



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 04:30 PM
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Originally posted by apc

Personally, I'm quite content with our enemy being tortured to gain information rather than watching that same enemy cut the throats of captured soldiers on national television.



The problem is that will not be confined to the foreign enemies alone it will endanger our own in case of a Real war.

No just a war of ideologies like bush is wagging but a real war between one nation against another.

Right now that is not the war that Bush is fighting, also it will included American born citizens tagged as terrorist for one reason or the other one.

The ramifications of what Bush is trying to do will go beyond boundaries of citizenship and nationalities including us Americans.



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 04:38 PM
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Originally posted by apc


To think we as a nation are "above" torture is true arrogance. The history of nations much older than ours shows that torture is just, and often required during a time of war. And this is a time of war.



Well, then I guess it DOES define YOUR character.



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 05:23 PM
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Let me simplify.

Bill of rights, US citizens.
Deceleration of Independence, not law.
Geneva Conventions, outdated and dangerous for our troops.
Prisoners of War, not governed by civil criminal law.

Defines my character? Damn straight. And I'd just like to add, what's being discussed here is nothing new.

[edit on 17-9-2006 by WestPoint23]


apc

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 05:35 PM
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Valhall
Well, then I guess it DOES define YOUR character.

Well... uhm... duh.



Originally posted by marg6043
The problem is that will not be confined to the foreign enemies alone it will endanger our own in case of a Real war.

Russia would not have a problem torturing our troops.
China would not have a problem torturing our troops.
Korea HASN'T had a problem torturing our troops.
And if the enemy country in question were one located in the ME, I think we know how they would act.

So unless we went to war with Canada, I'm fairly certain our POWs would face torture, anyway.



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 05:51 PM
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so, let's see, prospective terrorists deserve to be treated cruelly and tortured because some real terrorists somewhere have a insane habit of getting their joys in life by sawing off heads of people...they're barbarians!!
so, we we treat those we see as terrorists in like manner, maybe not sawing off their heads but well, inflicting enough pain on them that they wish they could die....do we become barbarians also, with just treatment deserving to us?

it doesn't make sense, if we judge others on the basis of their treatment of others be they their prisoners or their citizens, and then reduce our own standards to be more in line with theirs, don't we also deserve like judgement and treatment as we found those who lacked our standards to begin with?



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 06:13 PM
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Americans like Bush and gang make the rest of Americans look bad. You have my deepest sympathies. Any chance you could get the morons out? Kinda hard in a one-party system, I know...



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 06:16 PM
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Actually, you don't even have to look at "Bush and gang". We've got at least one example right here in this thread.

"everybody else is doing it so it's okay for us to do it too!" yee-f***ing-haw


apc

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 06:39 PM
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If everyone else started nuking eachother, would you expect us to keep firing bullets?

Like I said, if you let some delusion of morals or ethics get in the way of winning a war, that victory will never come. The enemy will not carry that ideology, and will use that lack of restraint against us, as they have been.

I'm not saying we should start strapping people to racks. Psychological methods are far more effective. I suspect these are what have already been practiced, giving us the wealth of information that grows with each passing day.



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 06:48 PM
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Well, I just got why we're not understanding each other.


Like I said, if you let some delusion of morals or ethics get in the way of winning a war, that victory will never come.


I'm not in a war. I'm not backing a war. And I have no enemy. If I had an enemy, I wouldn't torture him. I can't think of anything about me that makes me so special that winning the "one-up" against some one would justify me torturing another human being.

So...carry on! I'm sure you'll drag us all down with you.

[edit on 9-17-2006 by Valhall]



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 06:57 PM
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If it takes torture to get information out of them, so be it. That's my take on this. That's all from me. It's been nice talking to you guys. Peace.



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 07:03 PM
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Nope, Bush should be stopped on this subject right away, he's already trying to strip us of our rights as citizens, enough is enough of the Bushisms !

As far as the "Psychological methods", here again is not a good thing as one may think, the Gov't had done a lot of tests on us citizens using this method years ago and it ruined those peoples lives.

NOPE, it's time for the American People to stand-strong Against this Administration and their NeoCon behavior


apc

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 07:19 PM
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Originally posted by Valhall
I'm not in a war. I'm not backing a war. And I have no enemy. If I had an enemy, I wouldn't torture him. I can't think of anything about me that makes me so special that winning the "one-up" against some one would justify me torturing another human being.

So...carry on! I'm sure you'll drag us all down with you.

[edit on 9-17-2006 by Valhall]


If you feel you are not on a side of the current conflict, so be it. But, if you personally were at war, you can honestly say you would rather die than extract information from your enemy, through any means, that would aid in your victory?



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 07:36 PM
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Torture should only be used in extreme situations to save lives and only if there's unquestionable evidence against whoever will be tortured.



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 07:38 PM
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Originally posted by apc
If you feel you are not on a side of the current conflict, so be it. But, if you personally were at war, you can honestly say you would rather die than extract information from your enemy, through any means, that would aid in your victory?


Extracting information under torture is not reliable and accurate. A subject under this type of circumstances will more likely say anything they are pushed to say to stop torture.



[edit on 17-9-2006 by marg6043]



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