Bush's Fight with Congress over Torture Defines Our Character

They were 7 and 9

And they weren't held hostage. They were legitimately interrogated as the understandable possibility existed that they were close to their father.

And he may have been told they were in danger, but they never were. They were never subject to torture.

Valhall, personally I wouldn't do that but if saying that to someone encourages them to open up then you can bet your behind I would drop a few lines here and there to get them thinking about the possibility.

Now my overall problem with these kinds of laws and discussions is that it just ruins the intelligence business. I support vigorous training and a few regulations/guidelines defining the boundary lines but I do not support the kind of legislation being discussed here. I don't want politicians to nit pick certain things and make a big list of what you can and can't do, that is just awful IMO.

I don't want an interrogator to be thinking about lawsuits, a hearing in front of a sub committee, the nightly national news or their career. I want them to be focused on their job, the intelligence business I believe is a very fluid, dynamic and sometimes a spontaneous field. I don't want interrogators to be constricted by all this attention and legislation. This is one of those things that I would shape through training, personal change and an awareness of general regulations, not through specific legislation.

[edit on 17-9-2006 by WestPoint23]

That's not what I asked you though, and that's not what you responded to.

So you are now going to say it is okay to do that? It's okay to take little kids into custody and then tell their father *insert hideous statement here*?

hmmm...nope, none of this is okay. You know what? I'm so serious that I will gladly let your ass hang out in the wind on the off chance you're offed by the next terrorist attack just to make sure I'm no part of this nastiness.

It's okay though, apc, there's a better life in the next world.

Well what can we do? should write our congressmen and let them know that we do not approve of bush's re-writing of the constitution?

We have to do something!

Heavens, can you imagine the torture involved in continuous playing of the Red Hot Chili Peppers?

Methinks one has to define what means of torture we are talking about. The words "Bush is turturing " is being tossed about without any real facts.

Those found to have applied out of bounds actions on prisoners appear to have been tried. I'm beginning to percieve there's a lot of speculation and misinformation in this topic.

Actually you didn't ask me anything.

Originally posted by Valhall
It's okay though, apc, there's a better life in the next world.

A lot of virgins I hear...

You know... I generally think you are a fairly intelligent person able to defend her opinions rationally. However your frequency of making snide remarks instead of a logical argument is making me question my assumption.

On an issue like this, you're bound to have lots of incompatible viewpoints.

Here's mine.

To all who think torture is justified if the victims pose a threat to their country, society, way of life, etc., there is only this to say: by condoning torture you do far more damage to that which you seek to preserve than any terrorist or dissident possibly could.

Your knowing embrace of evil and inhumane acts, however you try to justify them, damages and eventually destroys any moral justification your country may claim for its existence. It will gain you enemies among men and women of good conscience and ethical behaviour around the world.

Ultimately, this rejection of humanity and morality will itself destroy your society.

History has demonstrated this time and time again. Examples still abound in the semi-civilized world. I can't believe that Americans, whose forefathers were among the first in western society to recognize the danger, are at it all over again.

Go ahead, torture your enemies. You'll only end up making more of them.

Originally posted by apc

I'm not saying we should start strapping people to racks. Psychological methods are far more effective. I suspect these are what have already been practiced, giving us the wealth of information that grows with each passing day.

Give em '___' until they have the screaming meemies huh?

Anyone reading this that is Swiss, do you have any idea if your country can use American trained Firefighter/EMS? Sorry but some of my countrymen are starting to give me the creeps.

I could learn to yodel.

Originally posted by Astyanax
On an issue like this, you're bound to have lots of incompatible viewpoints.

Here's mine.

To all who think torture is justified if the victims pose a threat to their country, society, way of life, etc., there is only this to say: by condoning torture you do far more damage to that which you seek to preserve than any terrorist or dissident possibly could.

you are right about that buit think of it this way.....

this is only a little step in the direction of just out right doing away with the constitution. If this becomes acceptable all of our rights may come into jeopardy.

one small step for bush..... a giant plunge into the deep dark hold of despair for americans.

Imagine how easy it will be for him to turn his international quest for "terrorists" into a domestic one.

Dangerous times folks..... Deadlock congress in november!!!



[edit on 18-9-2006 by XphilesPhan]

War is hell. About torture, it depends on the context.

Valhall I think that maybe you have a bit too much compassion for the prisoners we have. You really think they are kept in secret prisons for nothing? You dont think that theres a 99 percent chance that these are radical islamics hellbent on destroying western civilization?

If a captured, man knew where a bomb was located you wouldnt do anything in your power to get that information out of him? Its about the greater good sometimes. The lives of innocents are more important than the wellbeing of one tortured Islamic. Put things in context!

War isnt about hallmark feelings. Sometimes death and pain are needed for eventual resolve. Although im not sure what the outcome of this whole war will become, I do know that I wont cater to the needs and feelings of our international prisoners. Now, I dont have that much faith in the US government but I do have faith that 99 percent of international who are tortured are being treated like that for a DAMN good reason.

Now dont assume I support Bush's policies as a whole, but in the specific debate over torture I think that it has its time and place. If we keep stripping our country of wartime tactics we may eventually end up debating whether or not we should shoot at people in a time of war.


Let me ask you this valhall. You capture a man who killed 2 of your children. He knows where 3 other children are being kept but he refuses to give you the information. He just smiles at you and prays to his god.

What are YOU going to do? (Context context CONTEXT)

This is all bogus anyway, you mean to tell me that with all research dollars being spent at the thousands of universities, pharma and bio-tech companies none have come up with a funtional "truth serum" I mean we are talking about lots of different avenues ofresearch. The CIA needs to gahter better intelligenct then do it with technology not treating suspects in a way that we wouldnt want our soldiers to be treated.

To all of those out there in support of bush on this or just against outlawing "torture" remember those laws and regulations are there to protect our troops, you legalize or look the other way at these currently illegal practice being done and how could you at all look down upon or be upset when the enemy does the same thing to our troops. Thats the point of this.

Personally I believe torture should not be used as we all should be above that and also that the information extracted isnt going to be always accurate and that by resorting to these sort of tactics it only helps justify to the enemy that we are the bad guys and that their cause is righteous.

That said, I believe that the definition for 'torture' is probably used in the media too liberally and that many interrogation techniques are fine to use to try and extract information

thanks,
drfunk

it doesn't matter what the defination of torture is, or weather or not the prisoners are being tortured even....heck, who knows maybe they're not really...
what does matter is the effort that bush and his gang are putting into preserving what they seem to think is their right to torture, their right to deny these people a chance to defend the innocences, their right to secret prisons in other coutries that are out of the radar, their right to eavedrop........their right to break US and international treaties and laws on their judgement....just by their defense of torture, and by those on this board, gives a bad impression of them, and of american in general.. if we justify the torture of others because they seem to be barbaric in our eyes, well, we will seem to be barbaric in much of the world's eyes. and, by our own admission, barbarism is reason to be tortured....
so, well, fine I guess....torture your prisoners, but the next time a video comes up with someone's head being sawed off, don't act so offended by it...america's own barbarism justifies the treatment, by their own reasoning!

I still don't understand why this is an issue, they're the enemy, we're at war, we do whatever it takes.
During WW2 we intered japaneseamerican citizens in prison camps, fire bombed dresden, and nuked two cities, and now we think we cant even torture some jihadi punk?
WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We have absolutely no moral obligation to foreigners who are killing our troops.
We do have a moral obligation to do whatever it takes to win.

Originally posted by Valhall
That's not what I asked you though, and that's not what you responded to.

So you are now going to say it is okay to do that? It's okay to take little kids into custody and then tell their father *insert hideous statement here*?

If thats what it takes to win. Damn skippy.
So he gets a few sleepless nights thinking his kids are being tortured. So what?
If it saves the life of even one person its worth it.

hmmm...nope, none of this is okay. You know what? I'm so serious that I will gladly let your ass hang out in the wind on the off chance you're offed by the next terrorist attack just to make sure I'm no part of this nastiness.

It's okay though, apc, there's a better life in the next world.

So tell me valhall, what would you be willing to torture someone for, and if you say nothing, you're lieing.
Any of us would do it if the stajes were high enough.

We have absolutely no moral obligation to foreigners who are killing our troops.
We do have a moral obligation to do whatever it takes to win.
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please explain why moral values can be thrown out the window when it comes to foreigners. by the same reasoning, I guess they can throw morality out the window when it comes to our troops also? got news for ya, we preserve our moral standards for ourselves, no one else. without them our values become valueless, the image we have of ourselves become black as coal...

and please explain to me why you see us as having a moral obligation to do whatever it takes to win....because throw morality out the window, I know how we can win today.,....two nukes, sent out, one at jerusalem, one at mecca.....I got a feeling the middle east would calm down rather quickly after that one....at least until the jews and the arabs settled their differences enough to come after us....

war is immoral!! self protection is okay, but this war is immoral...we aren't protecting our homeland, we off thousands of miles away destroying someone elses homeland.

The people we are torturing could be people who know information on future terror attacks aimed at innocent americans. If you were sitting on a potential threat wouldnt you want the government to do everything in their power to find out where the threat is and how to disable it?

Try not to become so far leftist that you turn this country into a bunch of pansies. If Muslims can broadcast beheadings on the internet and still be praised by the nation of Islam I dont see why we dont give our soldiers the benefit of the doubt when it comes to our prisoners of war.

Originally posted by nephyx
You really think they are kept in secret prisons for nothing? You dont think that theres a 99 percent chance that these are radical islamics hellbent on destroying western civilization?

Actually, US officials involved in the program have stated that between 70% and 90% of the detainees are innocent. That's reality, unlike Rush Limbaugh World where 99% are radical Islamics hellbent on destroying western civilization.

Originally posted by dawnstar
please explain why moral values can be thrown out the window when it comes to foreigners.

They are not covered by the constitution. They do not fight an honorable, civilised war, therefore they cannot expect the protections of civilisations. Furthermore since the very notion of human rights, as we in the west understand them, are anathema to these peoples worldview, granting them the self same rights whos very existance they protest seems ridiculous.

by the same reasoning, I guess they can throw morality out the window when it comes to our troops also?

They already have. When our soldiers are captured they are always tortured, and executed. When our soldiers do not get humane treatment, why should we extend humane treatment to them?

got news for ya, we preserve our moral standards for ourselves, no one else. without them our values become valueless, the image we have of ourselves become black as coal...

Exactly. We perserve our moral standards for ourselves. We apply them to ourselves. We do not extend them to those without morals.

and please explain to me why you see us as having a moral obligation to do whatever it takes to win....

We started a war, sent in our troops, men and women who are dieing because of decisions we made. To do anything other than fight to win, is a complete and utter travesty of our comittment to ourselves and those who defend us. Furthermore if they win the world will be consinged to either eternal warfarte or forced conversion to an intolerant primitive and brutal philosophy that will destroy everything our culture has labored to produce over the last 1000 years.

because throw morality out the window, I know how we can win today.,....two nukes, sent out, one at jerusalem, one at mecca.....I got a feeling the middle east would calm down rather quickly after that one....at least until the jews and the arabs settled their differences enough to come after us....

Thats one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard.

war is immoral!! self protection is okay, but this war is immoral...we aren't protecting our homeland, we off thousands of miles away destroying someone elses homeland.

War against evil is one of the highest moral duties.


[edit on 18-9-2006 by ThinksYouAreAnIdiot]

For God's sake people! We are talking about Bush trying to change the guidelines of the Geneva Convention, exempt the US from standards the rest of the world are expected to follow. How can you not all be disturbed by this do as I say, not as I do attitude?

Does it strike anyone else as disturbing that both Powell (who has more military experience than anyone on this board) & McCain (former prisoner of war himself) have jumped right in the President's face on this? Think about it.