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Bush's Fight with Congress over Torture Defines Our Character

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apc

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 07:45 PM
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Originally posted by SportyMB
Torture should only be used in extreme situations to save lives and only if there's unquestionable evidence against whoever will be tortured.


Agreed.


marg6043
Extracting information under torture will is not reliable and accurate. A subject under this type of circumstances will more likely say anything they are pushed to say to stop torture.

Methods of torture that involve inflicting physical pain, yes. Psychological torture breaks down the resistance mechanisms that result in false statements. Like I said (I repeat myself too much...) psychological methods are far more effective, and are likely the methods that we have already used with MUCH success.




posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 07:48 PM
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To be honest I think what defines our countries character is
that Bush is'nt being allowed to do it, and is having to find a
congress comprised primaily of his own party.


I totally disaprove of torture by the way, I don't care what
information it may bring.

If you want to go to war, than you should have all the inform-
ation you need before you start.



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 07:52 PM
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the tortured will say anything to stop the torture.
torture is totally and absolutely useless as a means for gaining information.

besides being completely evil, that is.



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 07:54 PM
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Originally posted by apc

If you feel you are not on a side of the current conflict, so be it. But, if you personally were at war, you can honestly say you would rather die than extract information from your enemy, through any means, that would aid in your victory?


Yes. See I have faith that in the end, everything WILL be the way it should. Even if it is not the way I want it. The faith I have in this belief is so strong that the idea of committing a violent act on another person for no other reason than to extract information is a repulsive thought to me. It would be a "self-will run riot" act that served nothing but my own self-centered purpose. There is nothing special enough about me to place me in a position to think I should torture another human being in order to place my self in some greed-induced delusion of "victory".

Yes. I would much rather die an unjust death as a righteous person, than to live an unjust life as an unrighteous person.



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 07:58 PM
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Originally posted by apc
Like I said (I repeat myself too much...) psychological methods are far more effective, and are likely the methods that we have already used with MUCH success.


Will you feel comfortable inflicting pain on others? and will you allow to have somebody inflicting pain on you for gathering information?



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 08:03 PM
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That's actually a very, very good question marg.

What of it, apc? Are you all ready to get tortured as well? Since I grew up with a father who served in WWII, I grew up hearing how "inhumane" those "Japs" were. Because they TORTURED our men. What of that? Why was all that lip-smacking going on and calling them inhumane...they were just carrying out good war tactics, right? So why the flaming hell did we nuke them then? Couldn't we just torture them back?

And why all the smack about the Germans? All they did was torture people - some for information, others for work, others to get rid of disease, and then others because they had "interests of the state". Why is history so rough on them? They were just carrying out good war tactics, weren't they?

What of this whole Golden Rule thingy? Does that only apply one way? Like - do unto me as I would have you do, and I'll do whatever the hell I want to you? Is that the way this works?

[edit on 9-17-2006 by Valhall]


apc

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 08:04 PM
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Are we all just ignoring everything I am saying?

marg6043... you even ask me something I stated my position on in your quote... did you just click the mouse without even reading it?

I am not condoning strapping someone's testicles to a wall outlet.

I am condoning making Mr. Hussein watch the South Park movie over and over again.



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 08:05 PM
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Originally posted by apc


I am condoning making Mr. Hussein watch the South Park movie over and over again.


You're evil.



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 08:24 PM
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But Mr. Husseins South Park isnt really the torture techniques being used in places like Gitmo.

Even Psychological torture is cruel and inhumane, breaking down a person psychologically is just as damaging, and in many ways, more long lasting \then physical torture.

Electricuting me as a means of torture will hurt, very badly, especially at that moment, and shortly afterwards, but, for example what they did in Gitmo, stripping me naked, wrapping aflag around me, chaining me to the floor in a fetal position and depriving me of sleep for weeks as you strip away my humanity is MUCH more long lasting of damage.



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 08:29 PM
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Originally posted by Valhall

Originally posted by apc


To think we as a nation are "above" torture is true arrogance. The history of nations much older than ours shows that torture is just, and often required during a time of war. And this is a time of war.



Well, then I guess it DOES define YOUR character.



Unfortunately Vahall, if you are an american, the world will view you as being part of this.
You cant control it, but your president has decided america is ALLOWED to do such acts.
Your american,
there fore your country has allowed you to do such acts.

When your travelling the world, and bump into some random foreigner, when they find out your american they will probably like you,
although they will relate you to your countries policies.


apc

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 08:31 PM
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If it helps achieve victory...

There's always therapy.



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 08:34 PM
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Originally posted by Agit8dChop

Originally posted by Valhall

Your american,
there fore your country has allowed you to do such acts.

When your travelling the world, and bump into some random foreigner, when they find out your american they will probably like you,
although they will relate you to your countries policies.


Well, when I bump into my random person (I'll be the foreigner), I'll be sure and not exercise my American right to torture. Maybe that will help them see me as the person I am, instead of the label with the smear on its escuchion.

[edit on 9-17-2006 by Valhall]



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 09:03 PM
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I agree with apc, there are other means of interrogation which are far more effective but I would not want to make a law totally ruling out "torture" under all circumstances. And one must also realize that asymmetrical warfare is a whole new ballgame, well not so new, but it's what we're facing now, and sometimes old rules will do more than make you lose (every time), they can be fatal.



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 09:41 PM
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Originally posted by Valhall

Originally posted by Agit8dChop

Originally posted by Valhall

Your american,
there fore your country has allowed you to do such acts.

When your travelling the world, and bump into some random foreigner, when they find out your american they will probably like you,
although they will relate you to your countries policies.


Well, when I bump into my random person (I'll be the foreigner), I'll be sure and not exercise my American right to torture. Maybe that will help them see me as the person I am, instead of the label with the smear on its escuchion.

[edit on 9-17-2006 by Valhall]


In a perfect world......
The president of the USA represets the people.
People wont like you being american, doesnt mean they wont like you being yourself.
Unfortunately everything america stands for, its rights, liberties, freedom and what ever have all taken serious dents to there credability.
No longer people love you for being american, they now love you for being against your 'american' ways.

Unforutnately, with the america's propoganda value, when foreigners see 'ordinary' citizens cheering, and appluading bush on his speeches, they assume americans agree with everything.

Being against americas foreign policy is seen as a rare thing, even though deep down its anything but.



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 10:21 PM
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so what happens when we find out that we got the wrong person after we tortured him? would you agree then that person has the right to to hold our government accountable?
where does it stop? would you torture the family of some one you suspect to try and get info? if we can do it to them, they can do it to us and our families.


apc

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 10:23 PM
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Well, in the current context, they already do. But...


Originally posted by apc

Originally posted by SportyMB
Torture should only be used in extreme situations to save lives and only if there's unquestionable evidence against whoever will be tortured.


Agreed.



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 10:23 PM
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How about this scenario...

would you hold a prisoner's family hostage in order to freak him out into giving up info? Like would you hold his little kids hostage some place and then tell him you have them and that you're going to kill them or send them away to a prison where he won't ever see them again or something like that in order to get him to talk?

Is that part of the okie-dokie stuff?


apc

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 10:29 PM
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No, because the family is innocent, unless they aren't (it's going to be sunny today, unless it rains...).

But I don't see anything wrong with making the prisoner think that you have his family dangling over a pit of lava.



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 10:34 PM
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Okay, I was just wondering, because

WE'VE ALREADY DONE THAT!

We did that with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. We took his 7 and 5 year old sons into "captivity" and then our interrogators let him know that we were holding his sons hostage as a way to pressure him to talk. And, of course, while I have no idea WHAT they told him they were going to do with his sons...

I think a person like you can probably take it from there and figure it out.



posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 10:35 PM
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That was all for victory though, so I'm sure we can find some way to back out of your previous response.




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