For all the Athiests.........

They say he existed as a prophet . They also use his name as a way to divide the christian and muslim faith by saying 'Any man who professes to be the actual son of god is guilty of blasphemy'

Originally posted by nephyx
They say he existed as a prophet . They also use his name as a way to divide the christian and muslim faith by saying 'Any man who professes to be the actual son of god is guilty of blasphemy'

but my point is proven, that a man named Jesus must have existed......I didn't say anything about whether or not he was the "actual son of god".....

a person like jesus would have existed, there were prophets in his time, and there were also other people claiming the same things and performing miracles just like the 'jesus' we all know..

however, the common representation of jesus is some white european looking guy with long flowing hair and very feminine features, and is the son of god..

how close this 'representation' actually is.. i'd say pretty far off, in appearance and specifically the 'son of god' part..

Originally posted by JSquared

...Sorry but there is NO PROOF whatsoever on the divinty of christ (there isn't even any for his existence) and the bible has been proven wrong on many occasions...

We can all be divine...we are all sons and daughters of a God...

As far as any evidence for the existence of Jesus, have you read the Koran?....why would the religion that has been made the direct ENEMY of Christianity contain stories of the same man that is one of the main characters in the Christian Bible, if he did not exist?

deny ignorance....

Well it could have been one of many reasons i.e
They had to acknowledge jesus to keep them on a right footing with christians who were quite well established in the area and who weren't very nice to muslims at the time. Or maybe they thought by inserting jesus they might get a few christian converts. Or the fact that Islam has a common anscestor with christianity
Anyway the muslims didn't believe in the divinty of jesus, he was just another prophet in a long line of prophets.
Still its not enough to say that jesus existed (around 600 years of a difference between jesus and islam!!!!!)


G

The truth gets meddled with over long periods of time. and seems its been around 2000 years since jesus just imagine how many times the story has been changed and passed on. its like chinese whispers.

shihulud:
I will have your rebuttles in a couple of days from an earlier post. My point is that instead of looking for any holes you can possibly find in Christianity, why not give it a shot and reach enlightenment??? There are quite a few people that always look at holes in everything and never get the picture, beauty, essence of it all. The fact is, that there are dozens of rebuttles for every hole that naysayers try and find. It is all covered 100%, in what theologists call Christian Apologetics.

The problem that Muslims face when it comes to Jesus is that they state he was a Prophet of God. When you ask a Muslim, he/she will tell you that a prophet of God cannot/didn't lie. Well Jesus has said/did tons of things that Muslims say he didn't say/do. I think that's a paradoxcial issue comming from a faith that was/is established to spread it's beliefs by the sword, or basically at all costs. After Mohammed was in the cave and having voices in his head which he thought were questionable, he went home and told his wofe, who told him that that HAS to be the voice of Divine relevation. He had his doubts at first and took his wifes word for it.

That's swiss cheese.

The Sufi's, which are Islamic Mystics, have a better idead as far as promoting peace, Love, non-violence and reaching God through unconditional Divine Love.

I still accept and love my muslim friends, however their apologetics are shaky at best.

JBourne:
Yeah it's been 2000 years and truth does get meddled with, but the core of the truth is still there if you tread through the fasads and Flanders types. Divine truth is timeless and doesn't matter what the age is. It's just like in the Bible in the book of proverbs, it has knowledge that has to do with whats going on now as well. It covers all the Universalities of Life. Raising kids, righteousness, Justice, Greed, Materialism, Cheating wives/husbands, addicitions, etc. These and many more things will never change no matter how far we go into the future. In a way it's similar to your favorite song. Even when your 90 years old, it will still be your favorite song even though it's out of style.

Dominicus i cant see any proof for anything you are saying.
And also the bible doesnt mention about things that are happening in the world today.
It is just written very loosely so that interpretations can be made from anything said to fit in with pretty much anything you want.

www.thegodmovie.com... have a look at this a new film coming out that is supposedly going to rock the religion.

JBourne,
Jesus fulfulling 2,000 out of 2,500 predictions that were made before he existed has Astronomical odds that are beyond a doubt solid proof of his divinity. There is soooo much archeaological proof, there are modern day miracles that still continue to happen, there are monks that can also perform some feats that Christ has performed that have been documented. Plato's Cave allegory is a huge argument that dismantles all doubt of the existence of God and the Spiritual realm. That movie you posted, the preview is weak and it has Sam Harris in it, a modern day athiest author who sells very few books and uses all the standard athiest arguments. Nothing new here, besides the film makers obviously using the "Bad" Christian examples of those that purport the faith but in reality aren't true Christians. You can make a documentary about that bad aspects of everything, just as you can make a movie about the good aspects of anything. It doesn't change much.

Instead of trying to find ways that prove Christianity to be false and a Lie, you will never get it until you try it. When you submit yourself to the Lord and dismantle your Ego, in exchange you are raised up to a level higher than you ever known. These are tangible God experieinces, ones that do not have scientific or psychological explanations. Transcendence, Unconditional Divine Love, Eternity/Infinity, Spiritual Powers are all tangible real things.

The bottom line is, unless a person submits to the Lord and reaches this Divine Love, that person will always look for things to fulfill themselves by either materialism, alcohol, sex/porn, power, money, respect, ego food, and so on. Imagine reaching a Divine contentment where you crave or need nothing because you are now beyond it all.

The arguments/Apologetics/Proof for the existence and Divinity of Christ and God far outweigh the other side. The Statistics alone are Mind boggling virtually beyond anything as far as odds.

It's like being drunk. If you've never done it, you can only comment on how stupid drunk people look and act and come up with your own conclusions. But then when you actually do it and have firest hand experieince, then you know the truth about being drunk.

Same deal here buddy, you and others simply do not know how true and incredable it all is until you mke that leap, if ever !!!!!!! Try explaing Quantumm Physics to a 5 year old and then you'll know how I feel as far as trying to explain/prove that I have reached enlightenment because of the Bible.

Originally posted by dominicus
The bottom line is, unless a person submits to the Lord and reaches this Divine Love, that person will always look for things to fulfill themselves by either materialism, alcohol, sex/porn, power, money, respect, ego food, and so on. Imagine reaching a Divine contentment where you crave or need nothing because you are now beyond it all.

This may be the worst thing i've ever read on this ATS board.

That's just utter rubbish to suggest that without the guidence of God, you're therefore only going to be fulfilled by materialism, alcohol, sex/porn, power, money, respect, ego, food.. etc. Are you saying there are no materialistic Christians? No Christians that drink alcohol? No Christians that have sex or watch porn? No Christians with power.. umm how about GEORGE BUSH! No Christians with money.. ummm what about KENT HOVIND! Yeah you can get pretty rich when you avoid taxes and break the law.

I could go on.. but I think you get the point.

It's like being drunk. If you've never done it, you can only comment on how stupid drunk people look and act and come up with your own conclusions. But then when you actually do it and have firest hand experieince, then you know the truth about being drunk.

The truth about being drunk.. please elaborate.

then you'll know how I feel as far as trying to explain/prove that I have reached enlightenment because of the Bible.

If you're an example of an 'enlightened' person.. then count me out.

[edit on 23-9-2006 by shaunybaby]

If the statistics are mind bogling then what are those statistics that overwhelmingly point to the existance of God or that Christ was in fact a diety. I'm sure one could get alot of people to say they witnesed something, and people are inherantly bad witnesses. We frequently are adamant about things we haven't even seen. Like a stop sign being present at the scene of an accident when in actuality there wasn't one.

people saying they saw it happen doesn't mean it has. Look at the amount of people who claim they have been abducted or witnessed one occure. They outnumber the amount of people who claim they saw Jesus rise, or do anything devine. So why is the evidence for Jesus' devine powers not as discredable as the evidence for alien abduction? Even Presidents of the United States have seen UFOs. Are they to be discredited? My whole point is that just cause people saw something happen or said they did, didn't mean they really know what they saw or if it was all just a bunch of fanatical bandwagoning,rumoring, and crazy cover stories going on around Jesus' death to continue a set political/social agenda.

Dominicus

I'm going to have all my friends, and anybody who claims that they are enlightened by God write a new bible, everything in it will be the truth and undeniably correct because it will be the word of God,as he will direct and guide these people as to what to write in the chapters/New Gospels. You can even write a gospel if you want, you're truely enlightened so no one should disagree with you either.

I dare you to disproove that this book is wrong or inacuratly reflects God's thoughts. You wont be able to disproove this new word as you won't be able to proove the old word was infact fidelitus to God.

Dominicus,

Odds are a funny thing. The odds are higher for Jon Doe that he will die from a heart attack, instead he dies from a unfortunant choking accident at Denny's. Can't gleen much from a statement like that. The odds are against life from forming but it did. Just cause the odds are rough doesn't mean it wont happen and just cause the odds are high won't mean it will either. look at how often you speed around in your car. The odds are high you'll get a ticket, but rarely are we actually driving past the cop when we do it, so we don't get speeding tickets nearly as often as the odds would lead you to think. Conversly people also win the state lottery against all odds.

Shaunybaby,
You completely misunderstood what I said. What I said and meant is, all the people in the world that don't walk closely with God, are always searching for something to fulfill themselves within the areas of materialism, sex/porn, power, money, lusts, and other unfulfilling vices. This includes fake Christians as well. I've said it almost a dozen times now in this thread that there are very few true Christians at the churches and it's just the way it is. Those that are walking the true path and are enlightened, don't have to deal with those types of things and require nothing but being in the eternal presence of God to be happy. It is the epitome of "Contenetment."

Those that are enlightened are the ones that may be working a regular job, but all that money is used in one way or another for the greater good of humanity, i.e. unselfish acts or other ways to setup a future where 1 can do works for others.

My main theme was that the majority of people are in this frame of mind'
"I know if I get a raise, then I'll be happy. I know if I buy that new car, I'll be happy. I know if I sleep with that hot chick at the party I'll be happy. I know once I do these drugs I'll be happy. I know if I fall in Love I'll be happy."

We'll guess what, those are all temporary happinesses(excuse the grammar there). Once you reach this enlightenment that I speak of and I'm in, you find tha complete and utter happiness that is beyond billions of dollars or 1,000 lamborghini's, or sleeping with Angelin Jolie/Jessica Alba, or anything in the world.

Even when bad things happen, you get sick, somebody in your family dies, you lose an arm, etc....you still have that divine happiness and you handle it like brushing off crumbs from your shirt, no big deal. It is the reason you can punch me in my face and I'll instantly forgive you and turn the other cheek.

You completely misunderstood my last post, so I hope this was more clear.

...............................
Bassplayr,
Read some of my earlier posts in this thread where I speak of the statistics. I would have to retype whole paragraphs to restate something I've already posted.

Besides the statistics, I've posted a VAST amount of critical evidence that can be sourced out and fount to be credible with regards to the proof of Christs existence and ressurection.

I see the point of your UFO argument, but we're speaking of apples and oranges here because when Christ ressurected, his own enemies, the government, and his followers all proclaimed and recorded/documented this event. A large part of the followers proclaiming this ressurection took this statement and got killed for it.

If somebody is claiming to have been abducted by a UFO, and they get threatened by the Governement that if they continue proclaiming this, they will be killed. I wonder how many would retract their words. If somebody takes that statement to the grave and offers themselves to the death in support for that statement, that is saying allot for the truth side.

Now we do have crazy people out there, but the sheer numbers in Christ defense that got killed for claiming they saw the ressurection. including people that didn't believe, and were against Christ, were outstanding.

i.e. take statement and die for it = trutt. Unless your crazy, except for the large amount of peole that all went through this, which is statistically impossible.

Mass hysteria is imposible?

Originally posted by dominicus
Shaunybaby,
You completely misunderstood what I said. What I said and meant is, all the people in the world that don't walk closely with God, are always searching for something to fulfill themselves within the areas of materialism, sex/porn, power, money, lusts, and other unfulfilling vices.

Yeah, I know you said this, and this is what I have a problem with. I did not misunderstand what you said.

Just because people don't have God in their lives, it does not mean they need to therefore fulfill it will sex, porn, money, power, materialism and so on. And in the same way God is fulfilling to you, money and power may be fulfilling to someone else. Since when is it up to you to judge what is fulfilling for a person, and what is unfulfilling. You assume way to much. Enlightened?.. Hardly.

Those that are enlightened are the ones that may be working a regular job, but all that money is used in one way or another for the greater good of humanity, i.e. unselfish acts or other ways to setup a future where 1 can do works for others.

And again with the self-riteous BS. So people who don't believe in God never do unselfish acts then?

My main theme was that the majority of people are in this frame of mind'

No they're not. This is your assumption about people who don't follow God. It's a very ignorant and closed minded assumption.

"I know if I get a raise, then I'll be happy.

By getting a raise you are showing that you're working hard and that your hard work is not going unnoticed. The same as a promotion. This are merely rewards of your hard work. And yes that does make a person happy, 1) because maybe it's easier to pay their mortage, 2) maybe it's easier to pay off the last bits of those student debts.

I know if I buy that new car, I'll be happy.

Christians don't buy new cars? You're really pushing it here ya know.

I know if I sleep with that hot chick at the party I'll be happy. I know once I do these drugs I'll be happy. I know if I fall in Love I'll be happy.

Sounds like you're a little jealous that you never got to sleep with a hot chick at a party?

If God never intended us to smoke weed, then he shouldn't have put the plant here. End of.

We'll guess what, those are all temporary happinesses(excuse the grammar there). Once you reach this enlightenment that I speak of and I'm in, you find tha complete and utter happiness that is beyond billions of dollars or 1,000 lamborghini's, or sleeping with Angelin Jolie/Jessica Alba, or anything in the world.

Well if by 'englightened' you mean self-riteous, arrogant, presumptious, closed-minded and ignorant, then yes in that sense you are enlightened.

I don't have billions of dollars, a lamborghini or want to sleep with angelina jolie.. I'm still happy though. Those things aren't important to me.

It is the reason you can punch me in my face and I'll instantly forgive you and turn the other cheek.

Yeah as if you didn't assume enough, why not assume i'm violent and will punch you too..

You completely misunderstood my last post, so I hope this was more clear.

Yeah it was clear before, and it's even clearer now. You're a closed-minded self-riteous ignorant person. Thanks for making a little clearer.

Originally posted by dominicus

My main theme was that the majority of people are in this frame of mind'
"I know if I get a raise, then I'll be happy. I know if I buy that new car, I'll be happy. I know if I sleep with that hot chick at the party I'll be happy. I know once I do these drugs I'll be happy. I know if I fall in Love I'll be happy."

a more disturbing and insidious " frame of mind " is , IMHO that which promotes the thinking :

if i go to church , i will be happy , if i eat the canible death cookie i will be happy , if i give 10% of my wealth to the church i will be happy , if i pledge my life to the dead jew on a stick i will be happy .

and worse than that - the assumption that other peiple will get some comfort from just knowing that you have done all this .

the pat platitude " they are happy now ... they are with god ... "

spoken as if it is a fact , sticks in my throat

"faith is the belief in that which is unevidenced "

Even when bad things happen, you get sick, somebody in your family dies, you lose an arm, etc....you still have that divine happiness and you handle it like brushing off crumbs from your shirt, no big deal. It is the reason you can punch me in my face and I'll instantly forgive you and turn the other cheek.

so Marx was correct , religion is the opiate of the masses

thats jjust as you describe it -- your " divine happiness " is a drug which subverts any real emotion you might have once possesed .

and as my parting shot , drop the aggrogance that assumes that your particular brand of dieism is the correct one , and all others must be wrong

PS , could not resist addressing this old canard :

Besides the statistics, I've posted a VAST amount of critical evidence that can be sourced out and fount to be credible with regards to the proof of Christs existence and ressurection.

vast ??? lol the extra scriptural evidence is a handfull of vague accounts [ josephus , tacitus etal ] whose accounts are either ambibuois , eddited after the fact or wrtiing so long after the events they claim to protray - they are little more than hearsay .

I see the point of your UFO argument, but we're speaking of apples and oranges here because when Christ ressurected, his own enemies, the government, and his followers all proclaimed and recorded/documented this event. A large part of the followers proclaiming this ressurection took this statement and got killed for it.

first , cite the roman or jewish authorities corroborating accounts of the gospel events

PS: IN THE GOSPELS ONLY THE APOSTLES , AND A HAND FULL ARE CLAIMED TO HAVE ACTUALLY WITNESSED IT

the " 500 witnesses " is slipped in in corinthians -- do not think we didnt notice that

in particular i would request the authorites accoutnts of the hordes
of the dead rising up in in jerusulem -- that should have got some notice

If somebody is claiming to have been abducted by a UFO, and they get threatened by the Governement that if they continue proclaiming this, they will be killed. I wonder how many would retract their words. If somebody takes that statement to the grave and offers themselves to the death in support for that statement, that is saying allot for the truth side.

see below

Now we do have crazy people out there, but the sheer numbers in Christ defense that got killed for claiming they saw the ressurection. including people that didn't believe, and were against Christ, were outstanding.

nice dismissal , are you really claiming that :

" if ` other people ` die willingly for a cause they are crazy , if christians die willingly for thier cause , then it proves they are right ? "

just ponder that ,

PS - where is your evidence that " none christians " died rather than recant ??

you do realise that citing early church histories is self fulfilment , please use jewish authorioties , and secular roman citations for this .

any , and i do mean any ideology will produce fanatics

as an extreme example , during WWI 60 thousand men went " over the top " and died - just because they were given a secular order . and les than 1000 deserted .

a better exampe is the various " heresis " against accepted of established religions -- were the cathars correct because they kept thier faith in the face of death , or the hugenauts ??

how about the iranian child " marters " who ran into land mines armed only with a plastic " key to paradise " -- they must have been right too

or the bhuddists who practiced self immoloation -- they must have been right

i.e. take statement and die for it = trutt. Unless your crazy, except for the large amount of peole that all went through this, which is statistically impossible.

ah , statistics -- lol

i suggest you recheck your figures and tally up how many thousands have died for mutually exclusive causes over the millenia -- they cannot all have been correct

Dominicus,
It seems as though your "enlightenment" may be another way of saying "born again." Is it the same thing or not?

Originally posted by SkyWay
Dominicus,
It seems as though your "enlightenment" may be another way of saying "born again." Is it the same thing or not?

after reading throught this thread, i'm coming upon the same suspicion

tell me, dominicus, do you believe that the bible is a book of absolute truth with no fallacy?

Dominicus, just what benefits does your 'elightenment' actually give you?


G

‘The Bible is as much a book of religion with me as the Gita & the Koran.’ Gandhi

‘Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it. It is fearlessness, and it is love.’ Buddha

"One should not think, 'My religion alone is the right path and other religions are false.' God can be realized by means of all paths. It is enough to have sincere yearning for God. Infinite are the paths and infinite are the opinions." Ramakrishna

‘Children, Mother does not say that you should believe in Mother or in a God in heaven. It is enough to believe in yourself. Everything is there in you.’ Mata Amritanandamayi

'This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness.’ His Holiness The XIVth Dalai Lama

These are the ideals I agree with.