Originally posted by DaFunk13
I don't want the "anti-communist babble" I have been fed since grade school, since a lot of it is lies and propaganda.

How do you know that what you were told is lies and propaganda. What exactly
were you told that isn't true?



[edit on 8/2/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by DaFunk13
And the "Teddy Bear" quip was ment to draw people into this thread. I never ment to co-sign to the idea. Its psychology guys....sheesh.

Okay .. I'll give that to you. Draw people in to the talk. I understand that.
You say it was psychology. I was a psychology major after all ...

DaFunk. Sorry. But all too often it seems like people who say that sort of thing about Castro mean every word of it. My apologies for reading more into your title than you meant.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
You don't think that the failed communist economic system is the major reason for
economic 'discomfort' in Cuba?

It is a part of it to be sure. Another would be their refusal to compromise with the west. It is no secret that it is hard to feed your people when you don't play ball, especially with America. What is Cuba's # 1 cash crop? Tourism? At the same time, Uncle Sam hasn't helped. We have left the people of Cuba to either brave the "shark infested waters" or suffer. It looks a lot like a two way street to me. From what I understand Batista was lots worse, and we loved him.

The fact that the elite communists (the ones that murder people for worshipping God) get all the best goods and food isn't a major reason for economic 'discomfort' in Cuba?

We are still talking about Cuba here right? Minus the "murder people for worshipping God" part it nearly applies here...careful.

The American embargo doesn't work and is useless. Goods still get through. It's not a real embargo and hasn't
been for years.

So they do have McDonalds and KFC and Walmarts in Cuba? I can get on a plane and spend my hard-earned American dollars in Cuba? I can go down to the store and buy Cuban goods? I am a little lost here....

The fact that it's still on the books is embarrassing.

Very, very true.

The normalization of relations between Cuba and the US is long overdue. One doesn't have to be a supporter of Castro to want this. Castro and his regime are long overdue for replacement, 50 yrs or so infact.

I would love to see normalization between our two nations. I just don't see the good, if any, it has done. I in no way condone the excesses of Castro, or for that matter Batista.

This will undoubtadly set off some here, but a good place to start would be to give back Guantanamo Bay. The bad old days of the Soviet Union are gone, any use that Guantanamo Bay was, is long since gone by the boards. If it was of much use at all.

Never mind, no need to edit.

[edit on 2-8-2006 by seagull]

DaFunk,

Thanks for the explanation, a day later. You still manage to insult me and Muaddib, who by the way, left Cuba at the age of 8 years old. I dont know about you, but at the age of 8, obviously Muaddib and i remember very well the hardship and the desperation. You may not remember yesterday, but when you suffer TRAUMA you do remember. Keep that in mind.

There was no need to belittle me yesterday. Absolutely none. As you can see, although he expanded the story, Muaddib says the same principle that i did.



BTW- I asked Muaddib to tell you how it was. I figured it would make a difference, even though the gest was exactly the same.
Maybe he's more believable than i.

No problem. Glad to settle the hash.

[edit on 2-8-2006 by dgtempe]
EDIT: For the hell of it.

[edit on 2-8-2006 by dgtempe]

Originally posted by dgtempe
DaFunk,

Thanks for the explanation, a day later. You still manage to insult me and Muaddib, who by the way, left Cuba at the age of 8 years old. I dont know about you, but at the age of 8, obviously Muaddib and i remember very well the hardship and the desperation. You may not remember yesterday, but when you suffer TRAUMA you do remember. Keep that in mind.

And just how did I insult you? By asking you to explain, in your own words, why you dislike Cuba under Castro? I simply said I was not satisfied with your reply. I was simply looking for more.
Here is your origional reply:

Fidel Castro lied to the Cuban people when he took over Batista. Now Batista also fancied himself a dictator, but we had everything and he was only a self proclaimed dictator in name. Castro promised to change the island for the better and presented himself as a liberator. What happened after that was that once he took power, he declared himself "communist". Needless to say, he fooled a lot of people!!! People started leaving the island by the millions.
I left very little in 1962 with my parents. My parents had to give up the usinesses they owned and our house INCLUDING all the belongings....that's literally, since the government comes to your house and counts EVERYTHING you have...right down to the last spoon...THEN and only then could you leave.
I remember eating Russian canned food (dog food) since the USA, rightfully so, refused to trade with Castro. To this day, there is no food and as you know people are dying to get out...by boat...swimming...at all costs.
The only thing that man could actually be complimented on is the medical field- and research. However, even with that, he did not allow many doctors to leave the island. Many of them were refused exit to the US.
Bad? Yes. Since nobody does business with him, the island is as if time stood still.
No cars, just old 40's and 50's cars that some have managed to maintain.
The biggest problem is no food. I have an aunt in Cuba who comes to the US every 5 years and we give her stuff to take back.

I will also ask you to remember that you and yours are not the sole sufferers of injustice on this planet.

There was no need to belittle me yesterday. Absolutely none. As you can see, although he expanded the story, Muaddib says the same principle that i did.

You're been around long enough- try to act civil. Thank you for understanding.

BTW- I asked Muaddib to tell you how it was. I figured it would make a difference, even though the gest was exactly the same.
Maybe he's more believable than i.

I had no idea that I belittled you. I sincerely apologize if this is how you feel. I just wanted a litte more effort is all. Mauddib got the idea ok. It isn't a matter of believing you. I do. I just want a little more.

I really am sorry DG if I upset you. It wasn't my intention. I figured all this time on ATS would have given you slightly thicker skin.

posted by seagull

The normalization of relations between Cuba and the US is long overdue. This will undoubtably set off some here, but a good place to start would be to give back Guantanamo Bay. The bad old days of the Soviet Union are gone, any use that Guantanamo Bay was, is long since gone by the boards. If it was of much use at all. [Edited by Don W]

1) I agree that the US ought to normalize with Cuba. Part of the problem was such American capitalists as the American Sugar Company which lost its back breaking property to the state sans compensation. A no-no to a dyed-in-the-wool capitalist.

2) There is no doubt some religious component in the current anti-Castro hoopla in Miami. The Catholic Church enjoyed a privileged status in Cuba, left over from the colonial Spanish days. That was quickly rectified by the Communists.

3) We wanted Git-mo in 1898 because, as in the USS Maine, our ships were coal fired. Git-mo was a convenient re-coaling station - as the Falklands were to Great Britain - for our Caribbean fleet. After the Panama Canal was opened in 1914, it became all the more valuable as an ideally sited outpost to protect America’s control of the Canal Zone.



[edit on 8/2/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by DaFunk13
We are still talking about Cuba here right?

Yes. No need to 'be careful' at all. America is a land of opportunity. Education
isn't just for 'the elite'. Opportunity is for anyone who makes an effort. Social
programs are in place to catch those who fall. Freedom of religion and freedom
of speech are foundations in the American system. There are NO opportunities
and NO freedoms in Cuba. None.

America is run much better than Cuba. The bones at the bottom of the ocean
of those who die trying to reach freedom here cry out to this fact.

I am a little lost here....

American goods and other items still get through to the island. They don't have
to have WalMart or McDonalds for it to get through, but it still does through
other channels. Lots of goods have for a long time. The embargo is completely
ineffective and useless ... not to mention an embarrassment and a relic.

For Cuba to prosper it must be free. The people must be free to receive education.
The people must be free to worship as they wish ... or they will wither away. The
people must be free to make their own life decisions and not have the government
make them all. The people must have freedom of speech so that truths will be
told and learning can take place. These things can not happen while Castro lives.
His hold is too tight.

My only real worry about the future of Cuba is Castros unhealthy relationship with
the leadership in Venezuela. I wouldn't be surprised to see them step in and try
to control things after Castro dies.

posted by DaFunk13

posted by FlyersFan
“ . . the failed communist economic system . . fact the elite Communists that murder people for worshiping God get all the best . . the American embargo doesn't work . . It's not a real embargo and hasn't been for years . . the fact it's still on the books is embarrassing.”

It is a part of it to be sure. Another would be their refusal to compromise with the west . . it is hard to feed your people when you don't play ball with America. What is Cuba's # 1 cash crop? Tourism? are we talking about Cuba? Minus the "murder people for worshiping God" part it nearly applies here . . careful. Batista was worse . . we loved him . . McDonalds . . KFC . . Wal-Marts in Cuba?” [Edited by Don W]

It seems to me D/F13, that FF along with others here are the victims of clergy inspired propaganda against the Cuban government and oft repeat by pouting South Florida types. “A big lie told often enough becomes truth.” Per J. Goebbels. As in the first Queen Elizabeth of England, she was anti-Catholic only when they spied for Spain. Now that was a no-no.

it is my opinion that our grossly misinformed “intelligence” behind the Bay of Pigs fiasco was obtained from local parish priests and the bishops of Cuba who wanted their preferred status restored too much. The Catholic Church had full control of marriages, any divorces, all education and burials. Coupled with the confessional, this gave the RCC a lock on the country. The Commies upset this applecart.

Fast food is the bane of America’s health. It’s a love hate relationship. We know it’s killing us, but we can’t quit. We know Wal-Mart killed Main Street, USA. Wal-Mart boasts they crated 600,000 jobs but do not mention they destroyed 2 million jobs in the process. Fast foods dealt the death knell to Grant Wood’s already sick family farm. So who wants America’s culture? How is it superior?

I also suspect many of the people leaving Cuba in 2006 are looking for better income, and will return home when they have saved enough money. Which is probably true of most of the 12 million other undocumented Latinos in America.

Long Live Fidel! And the July 26 Movement!


[edit on 8/2/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by DaFunk13
I don't want the "anti-communist babble" I have been fed since grade school, since a lot of it is lies and propaganda.

How do you know that what you were told is lies and propaganda. What exactly
were you told that isn't true?

DaFunk ... Don't forget .. I'd REALLY like to know what you were told that isn't
true. What propaganda and lies were you told in grade school about Cuba and/or
communism that has led you to believe it is all 'anti-communist babble'.

Really. Sincerely. I'd like to know. Perhaps the posters here can confirm that
they are lies and propaganda .. or perhaps they can confirm them to be true.
Either way ... it would be good to get at 'truth', wouldn't you think??

Originally posted by DaFunk13

.....................
I also understand that a huge amount of the economic discomfort the average Cuban feels is due to a stranglehold embargo imposed by the worlds sole superpower. Makes it a bit hard to survive, much less flourish.

I know some people say this but the fact is that there "suffering" that most Cubans have had to go through started not too long after fidel got in power, and even these days tehre is enough food grown in Cuba to feed most of the population, but it is harvested to be sent to other countries "para el bien de la crevolucion" (for the good of the revolution) in those countries.

If the regime of Cuba wanted Cubans to be well fed, they could very well do this. Often times my family in Cuba, and most Cubans, have to resort to the black market, if they have any money which most Cubans depend on the money sent by their families in other countries, to get enough food to get by, and even then it is hard.

They find some food by travelling the countryside, there are a few places in Cuba where castro's thugs can't get to, and some farmers are able to grow pigs, or other animals illegally.

Originally posted by donwhite
FF along with others here are the victims of clergy inspired propaganda against the Cuban government

DaFunk asked for personal knowledge of people from Cuba etc. What I told here
was from my relationship with a family who escaped Cuba. They were persecuted
by the government for being Catholic. The father, who was a doctor, gave his life
for his family to come to freedom. That's not clergy inspired propaganda. That's
the life story of my Cuban friend, Juan, and his family. It's just a fact.

So who wants America’s culture? How is it superior?

Our culture may or may not be superior. But it is much more free than Cubas
way of life under Castro. McDonalds and Walmart don't have anything to do with it.
McDonalds isn't a cultural 'gift' for ANY nation. Freedom of speech, religion, and
a free education IS our culture. Capitalism as well. Those are definately
superior to communism.

many of the people leaving Cuba in 2006 are looking for a better income, and will return home when they have saved enough money.

Not the Cuban family I know. To return to Cuba would mean death. They are
American citizens now. Their children are Americans. They pray for Cuba to
be free. Not to return there, but for the people still suffering there.

GOT ANY STATS to back up your assertion that they just come here to make
money and then return? The Cuban exile population in Florida doesn't seem to be
getting rich and leaving the USA.

I have only heard of ONE going back ... a minor child ... Elian Gonzales. He was
taken at gun point and made to go back - despite the Cuban community in Florida
not wanting him to go. If those people were here just to earn a few bucks and
then return, they wouldn't have been so upset at the thought of a little boy being
sent back to the island.


[edit on 8/2/2006 by FlyersFan]

posted by FlyersFan

Social programs are in place to catch those who fall. Freedom of religion and freedom of speech are foundations in the American system. There are NO opportunities and NO freedoms in Cuba. None. America is run much better than Cuba.

Bush43 will be glad to hear you think he is at least doing better than Cuba, F/F. A proposition which is comparing apples and oranges. And with which I do not agree.

The people must be free to make their own life decisions and not have the government make them all. The people must have freedom of speech so that truths will be told and learning can take place. These things can not happen while Castro lives. His hold is too tight.

Although I’m not an admirer of any of the infamous dictators of the recent past, I must wonder how “one man” can run a country? The fact is there are thousands who “run” the country. Any country. Including our own. Fidel must be doing something right in Cuba to stay in power 47 years. That makes him older than 60% of Americans. See CIA Factbook.

Fidel has survived Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush41, Clinton and Bush43, if my prayer is answered. (Five of the foregoing are now dead.)

My only worry about the future of Cuba is Castros unhealthy relationship with the leadership in Venezuela. I wouldn't be surprised to see them step in and try to control things after Castro dies. [Edited by Don W]

Not to worry. Excluding the pre 1991 Russian Communists, the US is the only country to “step in” and try to control things. Actually, I hear Venezuela is helping Fidel keep Cuba “afloat.”

Some facts from the CIA World Factbook.
Cuba spends $690 million on its armed forces. 1.8% of its GDP. Too much, sure, but with the threat from the United States, it is the de minimus. Oh, by the bye, the US spends $1.24 billion every day. On what is euphemistically called “defense” but we have not yet found a worthy enemy since 1991. And that does not count Iraq and Afghan, which are carried as a “off budget” item. To avoid Congressional oversight hearings. You should add 80% of the interest on our $8 T. national debt, too. Sweet Jesus, that is adding up to one heck of a lot of money for no good reason? I hope your grand-kids don’t get mad at you F/F, for this endless fiscal irresponsibility.

Despite Cuba’s poverty - money-wise - compared to the US, the Cubans have managed to reduce infant mortality to 6.22 per 1000 of live births. The US, OTOH, has a 6.43 I’M rate. What’s more important, live infants or GDP? And, it seems the Cubans live almost as long as Americans, 77.41 years versus 77.85 for Gringos. That is, FYI, five and one half months. Heck Austria beats both, at 79.07 years. Singapore, where you can’t chew gum in public, beats all three, at 81.71 years. Durn those Asians! A rice diet must not be all that bad?

Cuba has an unicameral legislature with 609 seats voted on every 5 years. It is true the candidates must have prior approval by the Communist Party. On issues except national survival, the Popular Assembly makes the laws for Cuba.

Cuba has a 2% unemployment rate. No goofing off in the socialist paradise! Cuba has 750,000 telephones but only 75,000 cell phones. It has 150,000 internet users, but you do need a state permit to buy a computer. Cuba produces about 72,000 bbls of oil per day, but consumes 205,000 bbls per day. Say hello Venezuela.

Cuba’s exports largely go to the following, Holland, 24%, Canada, 20%, China, 10% and Spain, 6%. By way of interest, 7% of imports come from the USA. Hmm?



[edit on 8/2/2006 by donwhite]

Fidel must be doing something right??? Oh yea, fear, intimidation, starvation, killing, yea he's doing something right.

As far as:
I also suspect many of the people leaving Cuba in 2006 are looking for a better income, and will return home when they have saved enough money. Which is probably true of most of the 12 million other undocumented Latinos are d ong in America.

Long Live Fidel! And the July 26 Movement!

Cubans are all here LEGALLY. Weather they took "freedom flights"..swam over, or came on inner tubes......
Most Cubans are hardworking, have established lives here and may go back to help rebuild, but i seriously doubt if they will up and MOVE back. Sorry to dissapoint ya.
We're here to STAY!!!!!! Deal with it.

Fidel Castro lied to the Cuban people when he took over Batista. Now Batista also fancied himself a dictator, but we had everything and he was only a self proclaimed dictator in name. Castro promised to change the island for the better and presented himself as a liberator. What happened after that was that once he took power, he declared himself "communist". Needless to say, he fooled a lot of people!!! People started leaving the island by the millions.
I left very little in 1962 with my parents. My parents had to give up the usinesses they owned and our house INCLUDING all the belongings....that's literally, since the government comes to your house and counts EVERYTHING you have...right down to the last spoon...THEN and only then could you leave.
I remember eating Russian canned food (dog food) since the USA, rightfully so, refused to trade with Castro. To this day, there is no food and as you know people are dying to get out...by boat...swimming...at all costs.
The only thing that man could actually be complimented on is the medical field- and research. However, even with that, he did not allow many doctors to leave the island. Many of them were refused exit to the US.
Bad? Yes. Since nobody does business with him, the island is as if time stood still.
No cars, just old 40's and 50's cars that some have managed to maintain.
The biggest problem is no food. I have an aunt in Cuba who comes to the US every 5 years and we give her stuff to take back.

Sorry if my little explanation was too simplistic.

Originally posted by donwhite
1) I agree that the US ought to normalize with Cuba. Part of the problem was such American capitalists as the American Sugar Company which lost its back breaking property to the state sans compensation. A no-no to a dyed-in-the-wool capitalist.

It's called nationalization, a common extortion technique used by communist nations. Since they are unable to produce a robust economy on their own, they wait until productive members of society create wealth. Then they steal it, "in the name of the revolution".

Hugo Chavez is particularly adept at this type of theft in Venezuela.

2) There is no doubt some religious component in the current anti-Castro hoopla in Miami. The Catholic Church enjoyed a privileged status in Cuba, left over from the colonial Spanish days. That was quickly rectified by the Communists.

And? What is this supposed to prove? The church has been the sole source of help for many Cubans. Every culture has a major religious component, and they all control the populace to some extent. Just look at Islam.

I really am sorry DG if I upset you. It wasn't my intention. I figured all this time on ATS would have given you slightly thicker skin.

The skin is never thick when you undermine something told to you and blatantly state so.
No problem, its forgotten.

Originally posted by donwhite
It seems to me D/F13, that FF along with others here are the victims of clergy inspired propaganda against the Cuban government and oft repeat by pouting South Florida types.

"Victims of clergy inspired propaganda"? What in the world are you talking about? The exiled Cubans don't need a priest to tell them what Castro stole from them.

it is my opinion that our grossly misinformed “intelligence” behind the Bay of Pigs fiasco was obtained from local parish priests and the bishops of Cuba who wanted their preferred status restored too much. The Catholic Church had full control of marriages, any divorces, all education and burials. Coupled with the confessional, this gave the RCC a lock on the country. The Commies upset this applecart.

Communists upset all social and cultural institutions that they encounter. They cannot withstand the competition; after all, who would willingly choose a life of enslavement and oppression over one of freedom?

Remember, religion is a choice. Communism is not.

Fast food is the bane of America’s health. It’s a love hate relationship. We know it’s killing us, but we can’t quit. We know Wal-Mart killed Main Street, USA. Wal-Mart boasts they crated 600,000 jobs but do not mention they destroyed 2 million jobs in the process. Fast foods dealt the death knell to an already sick family farm. So who wants America’s culture? How is it superior?

Earth to donwhite...please come back into orbit. You're off on a tangent. And this thread is about Cuba, not the US.

I also suspect many of the people leaving Cuba in 2006 are looking for a better income, and will return home when they have saved enough money.

I suspect that when Cuba is finally free, the exiles will return even if they are flat broke. They miss their beloved country that was stolen from them.

Long Live Fidel! And the July 26 Movement!

I hope he burns in hell after a long period of suffering.