from DaFunk13 I really am sorry DG if I upset you. It wasn't my intention. I figured all this time on ATS would have given you slightly thicker skin.

That takes the award for the most insincere apology I've ever heard. I figured all this time on ATS would have taught you more tact.

posted by jsobecky

"Victims of clergy inspired propaganda"? What in the world are you talking about? Remember, religion is a choice. Communism is not. [Edited by Don W]

Not really, J/B. Over the centuries, the RCC has developed an exquisite control system. And while I’m on the subject, you ought to know well the RCC has killed many times as many people as Fidel has ever thought of killing. Hmm?

Babes are dragged off to the baptismal fount by age 14 days. Parents are constantly harangued by the local priest and throughly frightened that if they don’t produce the child and dedicate it to God, should the child die, it will roast in hell, as this babe-in-arms carries the Original Sin of Adam and Eve. Say No Thanks, God. For the trusting but ill-informed masses of people, this is serious stuff.

Finally, if you tick-off the RCC, you cannot be buried in sanctified ground. And you surely know what that means? When Jesus comes, your remains will not be resurrected to spend eternity with Jesus and the angels. Pay enough money to the Church and ipso facto, you can be laid to rest in holy ground. Say Hello, Jesus! Hmm?

And that is called Freedom of Religion?



[edit on 8/2/2006 by donwhite]

Okie Dokie DonWhite, could we possibly get back on topic and not burn this thread down to a RCC issue? We do have other forums for that and I don't think you can simplify the topic of this thread to such a degree.

As for the topic (Political Figures - Castro) you have made some pretty interesting statements about it without really responding fully to the original poster, who did explain he was looking for real stories. Are you stating opinions formed by exactly what the host of the thread asked to avoid or do you have any substance to contribute to the oppossing side of this dialogue?

Please stay on track here. Thanks.

Originally posted by donwhite
Not really, J/B. Over the centuries, the RCC has developed an exquisite control system. And while I’m on the subject, you ought to know well the RCC has killed many times as many people as Fidel has ever thought of killing. Hmm?

Babes are dragged off to the baptismal fount by age 14 days. Parents are constantly harangued by the local priest and throughly frightened that if they don’t produce the child and dedicate it to God, should the child die, it will roast in hell, as this babe-in-arms carries the Original Sin of Adam and Eve. Say No Thanks, God. For the trusting but ill-informed masses of people, this is serious stuff.

Don't play the pedant with me, donwhite. I was born and raised a Roman Catholic. You are being melodramatic and inaccurate, and it won't work.

And that is called Freedom of Religion?

I suppose you think that Islam is a paradigm of virtue when it comes to religion, eh?

posted by jsobecky

I was born and raised a Roman Catholic. You are being melodramatic and inaccurate, and it won't work. [Edited by Don W]

No one can help how he was born, J/B. There is no need to defend the indefensible. One religion is as bad as another. In that sense, all religions are equally bad.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The Holy Trinity of Death!

Originally posted by donwhite
.............

Despite Cuba’s poverty - money-wise - compared to the US, the Cubans have managed to reduce infant mortality to 6.22 per 1000 of live births. The US, OTOH, has a 6.43 I’M rate. What’s more important, live infants or GDP? And, it seems the Cubans live almost as long as Americans, 77.41 years versus 77.85 for Gringos. That is, FYI, five and one half months. Heck Austria beats both, at 79.07 years. Singapore, where you can’t chew gum in public, beats all three, at 81.71 years. Durn those Asians! A rice diet must not be all that bad?
................

There is one small problem with all those facts you mentioned.... All information in Cuba is "controlled by the state"....castro and his thugs says what goes and what doesn't....so what makes you think they are "telling the truth and nothing but the truth"?.... Even in Cuba the Cuban people know not to trust information given by the government.... When the government in Cuba claims only two people died in a hurricane, Cubans know the figure is probably in the dozens or more.

Originally posted by donwhite
..................
It seems to me D/F13, that FF along with others here are the victims of clergy inspired propaganda against the Cuban government and oft repeat by pouting South Florida types. “A big lie told often enough becomes truth.” Per J. Goebbels. As in the first Queen Elizabeth of England, she was anti-Catholic only when they spied for Spain. Now that was a no-no.
........................

What in the world are you talking about?..... Propaganda by the clergy?....

What some members say about the govenrment of Cuba repressing religion is true. Many Cubans, and myself included, who were raised Catholic in secret, because religion was banned in Cuba, had to make up stories as to what we were doing when we were in Church.

In my own neighborhood there were some other Cuban children who went to church, but everyone believed we were going to learn to play piano, and in order to make people, those in the neighborhood watch commitee (there were/are people in every neighborhood who are/were spies for the Cuban government) believe that we were learning to play piano, there was always someone playing the piano, and none of the plays were religious.

You see, anyone who was found to be going to church was/is called in Cuba "gusano" (worm) and was harrased. Somehow someone found we were not going to learn to play piano but were going to church, and i was harrased because of this, including who was my best friend back then in Cuba, because since childhood children were taught to hate religion.

The clergy did not have to "make up any stories", until recently, and I believe this was done because more and more Cubans were becoming religious and the government had to do something about it, plus castro wanted some points in the opinion the world had about his regime, religion was banned in Cuba.

Originally posted by donwhite

Not really, J/B. Over the centuries, the RCC has developed an exquisite control system. And while I’m on the subject, you ought to know well the RCC has killed many times as many people as Fidel has ever thought of killing. Hmm?
........................

Now you are trying to change the topic of this thread....

If you want to start a thread about the evils of religion please start another thread, thanks.

Originally posted by donwhite
No one can help how he was born, J/B. There is no need to defend the indefensible. One religion is as bad as another. In that sense, all religions are equally bad.

Please don't be so presumptive as to think you know how I feel about my religion, donwhite.

But I am not defending religion, anyway. I'm objecting to the fact that you come in here and spread total B/S about the RCC, and if it is allowed to go unchallenged and uncorrected, some may take it as the truth.

As has been pointed out, tho, that is not the topic of this thread. Start another thread if you wish to bash religion.

Off topic and wrong.

Originally posted by donwhite
Babes are dragged off to the baptismal fount by age 14 days.

People can baptise their children whenever they want. If the custom or tradition
is 14 days; then it's 14 days. St. Terese was baptised at 2 days. My catholic
neighbor was baptisted at 2 1/2 years old. And frankly babes aren't 'dragged off'
... a baptism usually includes a large celebration and/or party for the family and
friends. It's a time of rejoicing for people of faith.

Parents are constantly harangued by the local priest ..

Not true. Nothing even close to this has been true for centuries upon centuries.
It may not even be true for back then either. It certainly isn't true for Cuba where
it is against Castro's regime to be a practicing Catholic.

Seriously donwhite ... you are off topic from the subject - Castro and communism -
and on a side note you are totally wrong about modern day Catholicism. If you
want to hate all organized religion that's your choice, but you might want to get
your facts straight before you go on off topic rants.



[edit on 8/3/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by DaFunk13
the anti-communist babble that infects our television and school books,

DaFunk ... you wrote this on August 1st. It is now August 3rd. You've been asked
to provide exactly what it was that was taught in school about communism that is
'babble' and wrong. Please provide that information so that those who have
experienced communism and the cuban issue first hand can respond to confirm
or deny those things you call 'babble'. Thank you.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by DaFunk13
the anti-communist babble that infects our television and school books,

DaFunk ... you wrote this on August 1st. It is now August 3rd. You've been asked
to provide exactly what it was that was taught in school about communism that is
'babble' and wrong. Please provide that information so that those who have
experienced communism and the cuban issue first hand can respond to confirm
or deny those things you call 'babble'. Thank you.

Well, let me start by saying that I have lots of stuff to do other than troll this board and argue with you folks. My purpose on this thread was to ask questions and read responses, not argue political ideologies with someone on the opposite side of the spectrum. I am no commie, but I assure you our ideas of political and economic systems will clash. If your goal in this is to pick apart my response rather than add something constructive to the topic I think you should post elsewhere.

As for the actual things that were babble, I would say it is more of the vague half-truths rather than full-out lies. I remember learning that communism is bad because they burn your books and kidnap you in your sleep and keep you half starved. We aren't told all the events surrounding our little trist with the soviets, just the ones that make the Cuban gov't look like animals. I now know that a lot of these things are simply not true. I never herd the name Batista even uttered in high school. All our little puppet democracies in Latin America are disguised well in school. I am not going to go into a long detailed list of the things that I believed up until I was old enough to pick up a book and weed out what was true, what was not, and what was simply an embellishment because, as I said above, this thread isn't about how I feel about the situation in Cuba, or any other impoverished South American nation.

Its about how people with first hand experience feel about Cuba under Castro. So far I have only gotten a handful of good responses and a lot of bickering and a little whining. Yet another reason ATS is sinking IMO.

I want to thank Mauddib again for his inciteful posts. I also want to apologize to DG again, because apparantly my apology sounded "insincere." It wasn't. I never intended to make her feel "belittled."

I invited Don because he seemed to have a bit of knowledge contrary to a lot of the stuff I usually hear about Cuba so I thought it would be nice to have an opposition. I choose no sides here guys. I'm simply an observer.

Originally posted by donwhite
Posters here have gratuitously bad-mouthed Cuba.

No. We have posted facts about the Cuban government.

Posters have asserted without knowing that “religious freedom” is either
denied or seriously abridged in Cuba.

We KNOW it from first hand information and/or from friends who have
suffered there. Honestly - it looks like YOU are the one 'asserting without
knowing ... ' If you'd like to know what we and our friends know then you
should relocate to Cuba .. if you dare.

the claims are propaganda by people who have an agenda to serve.

What possible agenda could my friend Juan have? His life story earns him nothing.

the pope would not have gone to Cuba if he believed his church was being persecuted or mistreated.

Actually, that's the BEST reason for him to go.

Originally posted by dgtempe
HE ONLY AGREED TO LET PEOPLE GO IN ORDER TO KEEP ALL THEIR POSESSIONS

And empty the jails. Don't forget that. The many of the ones he 'lets' go
just to empty jails.

Originally posted by DaFunk13
I have lots of stuff to do other than troll this board

Me too. I understand. I apologize if I was being pushy. I was REALLY curious
as to what exactly it was that people fed you when you were in grade school.

If your goal in this is to pick apart my response ....

Nope. You brought up that you were told 'babble' in school. I simply want to know
what exactly it was that was so wrong that you were taught. Honest and sincere
curiousity. As far as 'picking apart' ... discussion isn't picking apart. It's
discussing. You said you had serious problems with what was taught in school.
There are people on this thread with first hand information and experiences with
Cuba. They could confirm that it is babble, or help you to understand that it is
true. Notice I said BOTH.

Originally posted by donwhite

Cuba is a member nation of the United Nations.

Oh that one really puts me at ease. There are probably more problems with the UN than there are with Castro.

Oops - now I'm off topic.

Really do tell, you are debating the first hand accounts of Cubans with "facts"? Wasn't the point of this thread to get beyond what may be propaganda? We still haven't seen a single real life Cuban (unless you are one) actually provide another side to the testimonials here.

I find that telling. Are there any Cuban (as in living in) ATS'ers on this board? If not, why not?