I hope I'm not too late to make a statement on this topic. I was raised in a christian church and it has never failed to amaze me how selective religious people can be about what parts of the Bible they choose to follow. I know of 1 or 2 verses in the Bible that denounce homosexuality (provided the modern day translation is completely accurate). I also know of multiple passages about not judging, loving each other equally no matter what, that vengence belongs to God alone, and treating others like we want to be treated. I wonder if those people that say being gay is wrong or immoral are really perfect enough to be casting the first stone? Would they want to be hated and persecuted for being who THEY are? Have any of those denouncing gay marriages based on the Bible ever been divorced or been unfaithful? Both are as much of an abomination as homosexuality. Also, since when is it the state's place to dictate who may or may not be married? I always believed that marriage was a human's inherent right and that the government was involved for documentation, not to dictate who may or may not declare their devotion and love through the act of marriage.
Maybe once all of the heterosexual marriages are perfect and we have ceased to sin within our own relationships, then we can try telling a gay couple that their love for each other is wrong. People, generally, do not choose to be gay, they are created that way. What kind of God creates people who are either forced to deny themselves of love and intimacy or be condemned to hell?
As for the argument of homosexuality spreading disease, I think it has a lot less to do with being gay and alot more to do with the increasing rate of promiscuity amongst people as a whole. Gay marriages would encourage monogamy. Why NOT get the milk for free, if you CAN'T buy the cow? All of these people afraid of disease really have nothing to worry about unless THEY are indiscriminately sleeping around or using intravenous drugs. The risk of getting anything in other ways is minimal at most. If you use a little discrimination before being intimate with someone or better yet wait until you love them enough to risk your life to sleep with them, gay or straight, then I'm willing to bet the whole disease spreading issue would decrease considerably.

One last thing, just out of curiosity, is it wrong for a woman to sodomize her husband? It's a heterosexual couple, so "morally speaking" it should be okay right?

I agree with everything you said, but feel that while God may see HIS creation (Homosexuals) as an abomination, it is not my place, nor anyone else's to dictate or judge what a person chooses to do in his/her personal life. If we all have free choice then judgement should be reserved for God in the end, and we should live & let live,so long as it doesn't harm anyone else.

As far as the political side is concerned, while I take issue with the extremists seeking privelege instead of equality, every mistreated or disrespected group that has ever fought for their civil rights has been told that they are asking for what they don't deserve (i.e., women, blacks, protestants, etc.). If that wasn't the case, there wouldn't have been any reason to fight in the first place.

Marriage is a declaration and vow between two people to love, honor & cherish each other. It has nothing to do with politics or religion. In a day & age where people marry for every reason other than love, the desire to marry for love is a beautiful thing no matter who is getting hitched.

One more question, as far as I know, the Bible only mentions men lying down with other men. Are lesbians also an abomination, since they don't engage in sodomy?

Originally posted by jezebel
I agree with everything you said, but feel that while God may see HIS creation (Homosexuals) as an abomination, it is not my place, nor anyone else's to dictate or judge what a person chooses to do in his/her personal life. If we all have free choice then judgement should be reserved for God in the end, and we should live & let live,so long as it doesn't harm anyone else.

As far as the political side is concerned, while I take issue with the extremists seeking privelege instead of equality, every mistreated or disrespected group that has ever fought for their civil rights has been told that they are asking for what they don't deserve (i.e., women, blacks, protestants, etc.). If that wasn't the case, there wouldn't have been any reason to fight in the first place.

Marriage is a declaration and vow between two people to love, honor & cherish each other. It has nothing to do with politics or religion. In a day & age where people marry for every reason other than love, the desire to marry for love is a beautiful thing no matter who is getting hitched.

One more question, as far as I know, the Bible only mentions men lying down with other men. Are lesbians also an abomination, since they don't engage in sodomy?

Okay. Just two points and I'm gonna leave this alone for tonight....

One. God created us, he did not create the sins we commit. We were given free will to choose our acts in life- good and bad. ...I believe all fellatio is considered sodomy....I may be mistaken as I have never thought to research this!!!

Two. I think many choose the gay lifestyle or are ambivalent and unsure......as black guy, I've never been in any doubt about my minority status in this country.

The majority of gay people knew or were fairly sure that they were attracted to the opposite sex when they were children. The parents of these children also were aware of their tendencies toward homosexuality most of the time, though many discouraged or denied it due to social and religious stigma. Most people, without serious psychological issues, would not CHOOSE to be in such a persecuted and unaccepted minority. I find it interesting that you are black. I wonder, if being black was a choice back at the peak of the civil rights movement, would you have chosen your same skin color? There are people, morons granted, who believe that being black is a punishment for not being up to par in heaven prior to being born on earth. Personally, this is probably to most idiotic thing I've ever heard, but they believe it as much as protestants believe homosexuality is completely immoral. In some circumstances I'm sure some people have chosen to be gay because they thought it was the thing to do or something in their life turned them away from the opposite sex, but the majority, I don't believe, chose it anymore than I chose to be female or straight. There's just too much supported evidence.

P.S.
Fellatio is oral sex...Sodomy is anal sex...wrong end!

Should Gays be allowed to marry?

allowed???

who has the right to stop people celebrating their love or commiting to one another. This question shouldn't even have to be asked any more ....but unfortunatly... people are still .....stupid.

Originally posted by Lilith

Should Gays be allowed to marry?

allowed???

who has the right to stop people celebrating their love or commiting to one another. This question shouldn't even have to be asked any more ....but unfortunatly... people are still .....stupid.

Is that you again Mr Winkles? You changed form pretty quick.

Mr. Winkles says have fun boys and girls!!:



[Edited on 9-8-2003 by Tyriffic]

Two. I think many choose the gay lifestyle or are ambivalent and unsure......as black guy, I've never been in any doubt about my minority status in this country.

Well, I'm black and gay and I never once have had a doubt about my being a minority. I also did not choose the gay lifestyle. For as long as I remember, the fact that I like men has always been there.

Personally, I'm against gay marriages. And I'd like to take a few moments to poke a few holes (no pun intended) in some of the pro-gay marriage arguments.

1.) I've heard the argument that "Since we tolerate violence and sex on tv, why can't we accept gay rights/mariages?" (This one or similar to it has been used) The answer is, this argument is an easy way out. If that is a logical conclusion, then years from now or sooner, the same can be used to justify just about anything including pedophilia, incest and beastiality. Don't say it won't happen, because you never know.

2.) As for gays adopting? Well, lets take a look at that. I have no doubt that gay couples can be loving parents, but there is more to raising children than just love. (Yes, I am a parent) By nature, children are very curious and inquisitive, but aren't quite able to understand complicated issues. How do you explain it to a child when they ask; "Why do I have two daddies/two mommies when all the other kids have one daddy and one mommy?" And the answer "I'll explain it when your older" doesn't cut it. This could easily leave them confused. Or worse yet, many could grow up believing that being gay is normal where being heterosexual is not. The possible result is a class or group of people who turn their anger or frustration at another group they deem "not normal" meaning heterosexuals. I know that this has happened to gays: being hated for being different, but do two wrongs make a right?

3.) About learning to be more tolerant, what has doing so ever produced? psychologists and therapists for years have told us that murderers, rapists and pedophiles were once victims of various kinds of abuse and we should learn to be more tolerant of their situation. Child psychologists have told us not to spank our children, and be more tolerant of their actions. And we are also told to be more tolerant of other nations' actions...even those filled with hatred for others. What has all this tolerance gotten us? A higher crime rate, teenage gangs, children having children and terrorist acts against the U.S. Now, I'm not saying to be completely intolerant of anything new, but we have to draw the line somewhere.

4.) I've heard that "If a gay couple kissing offends you...too bad, learn to accept it." How can that be justified in todays society? For years activists groups have silenced millions just to please a few who are offended. If a group of people say something that offends someone else, it's called harassment and the person who was offended gets their way. But, if someone is offended by a gay couple, they are told to just accept it. The new American way....say one thing, do something else.

5.) Gay relationships vs. Heterosexual relationships: Some will argue that gay couples are less likely to divorce than straight couples, and overall have better relationships than straight couples. It depends on how you look at it. Lets say that out of 10,000 straight couples, 4,000 will end in divorce and 3,000 will be abusive relationships. That gives us a 40% divorce rate and 30% of the relationships are abusive. Considering that gays are a minority (meaning less of them) the amount of seperations/divorces and abuse will certainly be lower. Being gay doesn't mean that the couples will never break up, or one will never turn abusive to the other. By human nature they are just as prone to such things as straight couples are.

6.) Religious and biological: The bible does say: "Love thy neighbor" and "Judge not lest ye be judged" but, in the beginning (before the bible was even written in any form) God made Adam and Eve....not Adam and Steve and did so for a reason. Or, if your an atheist look at the biological side. Some say that being gay is a matter of choice, and some say it's not their choice but who they are. Well then why did nature create (or us evolve into) 2 sexes? Nature doesn't create with options.

And here are a few closing points to end my sermon.

1.) When pro-gay people express their support for gay issues, they are tolerant, and are expressing freedom of choice.....but when anti-gay people express their views, they are bigots, homophobic and "just don't understand". Why is that?

2.) Majority rules. That is the principle that this nation was founded on. Thats why we have elections. If the majority of Americans voted "no" to gay marriages, then you have two options: One being accept the majority decision, or two continue to protest and by that reasoning all elections and voting in the U.S. are null and void. If the majority voted "yes" then the same still applies.

3.) We cannot be fair to everyone. If straight people are offended by gays and gays want equal rights, who do you give in to? You obviously can't give everyone what they want, so someone will be left out. (Which I might add takes you back to the "Majority rules" point above)

I don't hate anyone for who or what they are, but I have my beliefs, and I believe that being gay is immoral.

Can I just add something here. I have been openly gay for years, it's a part of, not the whole of my life. Also for many years I have been a responsible, law abiding, tax paying citizen careful in my interactions with other people to neither offend nor alienate. I have contributed to society and yes I would like something back for that, rights and legal recognition of my relationship (if I so choose) being one of them. I do not want to be favoured over any percieved majority however. Please note that I come from an ordinary, law abiding family. I am somebody's son, brother, uncle freind etc, etc, I am not some satanic creation parachuted in at midnight on some fifth column mission to undermine and destroy traditional moral and family values. I actually rather respect and value these traditions myself but hope and expect that a more enlightened, civilised society can at least make room for those who are unable to fully function within these boundaries. As for people being offended by homosexuality, well I'd take offence if any one of you pulled down your kecks and took a crap in the middle of the street, thats why we do those things in private and that particular thread of reasoning really proves nothing other than some posters are willing to use any arguement no matter how tenuous to uphold their predjudices and yes the predjudice is there at least with some of you. I've listened to some appalling reasoning on this debate as to why I should be regarded as less deserving of basic human right and respect and no doubt because I wont meekly accept these criticisms I then get labelled the intolerant one. The classic bait and switch tactic.
The difference between a bigot and a non bigot is that the non bigot may find aspects of homosexuality offensive, flawed or unsavoury but he/she still recognises a gay persons right to be considered equal to everyone else and does not apply blanket generalisations in order to support a predjudice. The bigot however is happy to do this.
I would like the option of formal and legal recognition of a long term relationship if I so choose. This is not world domination. Get over it.
And would people please stop making unsavoury links ie, accepting homosexual marriage=legalised paedophilia. One is between consenting adults the other is not, which is why it is rightly illegal.

No, they shouldnt marry. This will lead to adoption of kids. Kids simply need to grow up in a home with a mom and dad, not two moms or two dads. We have enough problems with single moms and single dads as is. I think this would only screw our already delicate balance up.

besides, theres too few a number of gays, let alone gays who want to marry being minscule. I dont think one tiny group should be allowed to override the best interests and the desires of the rest of the population. They can be gay and do whatever else they liek, i just see little social value in letting them marry.

I congratulate you on a very well worded reply. I do see your point and I apologize if I implied any connection between homosexuality and pedophilia....that was not my intention.

I respect your opinion, even though in some ways I disagree. But, as I said before, I do not hate gays. I learned a long time ago you can not like what a person does, but still like the person.

I cannot apologize for my views on the subject, even when they appear harsh or unfair to others....I have my moral and religious beliefs.

Perhaps this is something where we can agree to disagree.

But once again, my compliments on your argument....so very few here are as well written.

Thank you for your reply. I can certainly agree to disagree, it's not my intention to dismiss anyone with a differing veiw as *the enemy*. Like I said in another post I am friends with people whose religious beliefs do not accomodate my lifestyle and we manage to get along very well. I also know gay people who use their homosexuality like a shield to excuse any bad behaviour they commit with false accusations of bigotry at those who dissaprove. Such is human nature, not nice at the best of times. There are some though that will fall back on any religious/moral posturing to excuse their intolerance and it would be interesting to see just how harshly they apply this line of reasoning to their own lives and that of their freinds and family, or indeed how religious they truly are (I know some have a very genuine faith though and I respect that). Either way I'll reiterate that all I would like to see are the same basic legal rights afforded to me, a responsible, functioning memeber of society, as are given to most people. Forget things like adoption and IVF for gays/lesbians etc, these are red herrings trumpeted throughout the media and taken up by some to muddy the waters. I've yet to meet any gay/lesbian who has children that were not from a previous hetero marriage/relationship, that's not to say it doesn't happen but not quite as often as it's made to seem. Personally I'm against adoption for many reasons.

I know after this post i might gain some Foe's!!

But i must say this, it has to come out..

Homosexuals getting marryed is wrong. Being a Homosexual is WRONG!!!

It is writen in the Holy Book(S). It cant be. It must not Be.

It doesnt work out in society. Please people look at the Truth of this!!
Please WAKE UP!!
It is something that a person has chosen its not a mental desiese its nothing out of that kind, Its just a thing that comes at puberty, They like to explore differant Skin.

Im sorry about this.

Guerilla

G, the books also have invisible people who live in the clouds. Anyways, need I say more?

Second, why is it wrong? It happens in nature, so can't be unnatural.

Third, why not let them marry? Why do you even care?? Is a gay getting married going to ruin you life? No, so why do you care?

We had the same thing going on against blacks. Except blacvks were animals, not wrong. They were suppose to be immoral animals that were lower than the other races.

Today, gays are suppose to be immoral satanists that are lower than straights.

No dif.

Originally posted by Hillbilly

.

2.) As for gays adopting? Well, lets take a look at that. I have no doubt that gay couples can be loving parents, but there is more to raising children than just love. (Yes, I am a parent) By nature, children are very curious and inquisitive, but aren't quite able to understand complicated issues. How do you explain it to a child when they ask; "Why do I have two daddies/two mommies when all the other kids have one daddy and one mommy?" And the answer "I'll explain it when your older" doesn't cut it. This could easily leave them confused. Or worse yet, many could grow up believing that being gay is normal where being heterosexual is not. The possible result is a class or group of people who turn their anger or frustration at another group they deem "not normal" meaning heterosexuals. I know that this has happened to gays: being hated for being different, but do two wrongs make a right?

3.) About learning to be more tolerant, what has doing so ever produced? psychologists and therapists for years have told us that murderers, rapists and pedophiles were once victims of various kinds of abuse and we should learn to be more tolerant of their situation. Child psychologists have told us not to spank our children, and be more tolerant of their actions. And we are also told to be more tolerant of other nations' actions...even those filled with hatred for others. What has all this tolerance gotten us? A higher crime rate, teenage gangs, children having children and terrorist acts against the U.S. Now, I'm not saying to be completely intolerant of anything new, but we have to draw the line somewhere.

.

1.) Doesn't the same apply for single parents? How do they explain why there is only one parent?

2.) I highly doubt being tolerant of gays is causing "A higher crime rate, teenage gangs, children having children and terrorist acts against the U.S. " but of course Fred Phelps will tell you differently.

1.) You do have a point there. Single parents can be faced with similar issues and coming up with answers could be just as difficult.

2.) I never said tolerating homosexuals raised the crime rate or terrorist acts. Don't mince my words. My point was that tolerance when wrongly applied can have drastic consequences. True, this isn't always the case.

Also, my post earlier was mainly (with a few exceptions) a look at possibilities....not a presentation of facts. I could very well be incorrect....but my views are my own.

I accept homosexuals as human beings, and I know they arent evil or out to destroy society, but on many gay issues, I simply do not agree with them. If they want to rally for rights to marriage then thats their freedom to do so....just as it is mine to oppose the idea. Each of us must look at the situation, draw our own conclusions and decide what we each think is the right side of the argument, without someone else telling us what to believe. That is a big part of what freedom is about, otherwise the U.S. would be a fascist state under totalitarian rule.

To answer "Why do you care?" I have my beliefs and my own reasons why. Aren't I entitled to them?

Often, people say I have warped, unlearned, uniformed, ignoran, stupid, foolish, (every other deragatory word)etc... views.
Then, I ask them this...
Warped???

One's veiwpoint of another interpretation may be warped..., not one's views.
If one needs research, why don't you look into it yourself?
I have based my judgement on my religious beliefs, historical interpretations, and cultural understanding. That is the only way any person can truly make a judgement on their own. That is the way we live. How can any person make a decision by casting aside the most influencial ideals and beliefs in their life?...
... they can't.

I believe gay marriages are wrong.
In my opinion, everyone else has every right to be wrong. They may see me as being wrong. That too is ther choice.

We can only make decisions in life for ourselves. No other person on a conspiracy site that, unfortunatley, has become populated with disinformation lately will be able to change another's views on such an importatnt 'ethical' issue as gay marriages.

Truly terribly sorry,
Tassadar

I distaste gays, however, I've gotten over the wole Crusade against homo thing, and I 'm just like "If tey wanna be gay (not straight) that's their thing. I'm not gonna be gay.
End of story.

The truth,
Tassadar

Wow, this post is old!

I'd like to put some facts out on the table though. One of my best friends was raised by lesbian mothers and she is quite a happy and wholesome little Christian girl.

So there goes some of your people's arguments that LGBTs cannot parent and will invariably produce highly abnormal people.

This is not always true though. Some gays produce depressed, angry children.

But then again...don't straight parents do the same?

SO...stop generalizing!