On This Fourth Of July (Op/Ed)

Originally posted by semperfortis
Grim,

Yet can we not look back at preceding generations and see where this document and it's intent was interpreted in different ways?

During WWII we gave up many of the rights we now argue to hold, and yet after it was over, they were all fundamentally returned. (ie. internments, espionage, wiretapping etc)

I believe that in a time of war, all things must be considered in regards to the safety of the citizens and the successful conclusion to the action. I agree that moderation is key, but things like what the NY times did, is to me treason, not defensible by the 1st amendment in a time of war. Not when their actions, or the actions of others, may directly cause the death of soldiers fighting to preserve that very document.

Semper

This is not a war though. I know we want to believe it is, but it simply is not. We want so much that those people in the WTC on 9/11 didn't die for nothing. It may be hard to see now, but they didn't die for nothing. They died representing the risks we all must take everyday. We have choosen to be free people. It is in saying that, that we must realize we will never be able to garentee ourselves complete safety.

We must do the most we can to keep ourselves safe, but freedom comes first. If that safety interfers with freedom its not a safety worth having. Freedom came first and our forefathers knew that. That is why they made certian rights that simply should not be changed regardless of majority view. They knew the fear of death would tempt us in the future to erode the basic liberties. Thats why they knew they needed the government to prevent them from the mob rule of fear.

This is only the begining. The war in afganistan is a war. The war in iraq is a war. The war on terror is a contemplation of every war they will declare in the name of terrorists. They will declare war on everything and everyone. They will declare war on our freedoms. This war on terror is not WW2.

No safety is worth giving up freedom. Safety is worth fighting for, but only if the freedoms aren't put at risk in doing so. I would be enlisting when I turned 18 if this war did not attack the freedoms. There are freedoms that aren't meant to be sacrificed, WW2, War On Terror, or otherwise. These freedoms are more important.

Rumors of the death of freedom in America are greatly exaggerated. True, there are those who would and do try to stiffle freedom, to withdraw bit by bit the very foundation of this great country, but such people are not winning and they will not be successful. Part of the reason they will fail is being exhibited here, on this thread, today by the members of this community. Another is the very recent Supreme Court decision concerning military tribunals. Where else in the world could a Yemeni with a fourth grade education feel free to take on the most powerful man on the globe and beat him.

Look around you at all the people going about their everyday activities without fear of government intervention or of being dragged from their homes in the middle of the night and arrested on somebody's whim. Look to our military forces. Those young men and women were not conscripted into service and forced to fight for things they did not believe in, they volunteered to serve their country. Look at our election process it is a peaceful process where the reigns of power are handed peacefully to whomever wins.

No, America has much to be thankful for and very proud of and unless we all turn complacent and inattentive it will remain such a place. Happy 4th everyone.

[edit on 4-7-2006 by Astronomer70]

Originally posted by Vitchilo.
It's time to fight. Organise groups, invade medias stations, spread the message of revolution. (will I get banned or arrested?

)

Anyone who has read my book knows where I stand on this, but I think it may bear repeating.

Yeah. Sure. Things are bad. The very idea of revolt sounds attractive just now. Like our Foudning Fathers before us, we should do our best to exaust all other options before we grab our guns and head for the hills.

It may be wise at this time to begin preparations, and hope they aren't needed. It may also be wise to dust off your political voice and use it while you've still got it. As much as we gripe and moan about the Bush administration, the sad fact is that hte next President is going to make us wish for the good old days of W.

There are a million things that are stull un-said. More of us need to step up and say them. There are a million things left un-done that more of us need to step up and do. Like the patriots of 1776, we need to know deep down in our guts that we said and did all before we took our stand.

Revolt will mean a lot more than wnat you see in "Red Dawn." It's gonna mean a taste of hell that Hollywood will never show you. The things we will be called on to do may go far beyond anything the French Resistance did in WW2.

In those dark and suffering time,s a lot of us will want to quit. They'll say that they gave up for a long list of good reasons. The rest of us...well...the rest of us will have to make our own choices. As long as we know that we said what we could and did what we could before it started, we will keep the faith with our brethren of 1776 and our countrymen might yet still be free.

Anyone who has read my book knows where I stand on this, but I think it may bear repeating.

Yeah. Sure. Things are bad. The very idea of revolt sounds attractive just now. Like our Foudning Fathers before us, we should do our best to exaust all other options before we grab our guns and head for the hills.

It may be wise at this time to begin preparations, and hope they aren't needed. It may also be wise to dust off your political voice and use it while you've still got it. As much as we gripe and moan about the Bush administration, the sad fact is that hte next President is going to make us wish for the good old days of W.

There are a million things that are stull un-said. More of us need to step up and say them. There are a million things left un-done that more of us need to step up and do. Like the patriots of 1776, we need to know deep down in our guts that we said and did all before we took our stand.

Revolt will mean a lot more than wnat you see in "Red Dawn." It's gonna mean a taste of hell that Hollywood will never show you. The things we will be called on to do may go far beyond anything the French Resistance did in WW2.

In those dark and suffering time,s a lot of us will want to quit. They'll say that they gave up for a long list of good reasons. The rest of us...well...the rest of us will have to make our own choices. As long as we know that we said what we could and did what we could before it started, we will keep the faith with our brethren of 1776 and our countrymen might yet still be free.

That's why we must prepare ourselves to fight peacefully now, while we can, because as you said, the next president, IMO Clinton or McCain, will be worst and maybe we won't be able to do it peacefully.

I'm not american but i come to ATS almost everyday and i learn new things about americans. This website waked me up about americans. Before, i was thinking that almost every american was bad as Bush. But now I know it's not true and that you are just as us. Sure there is warmongering people and bad people in the US, but not more than everywhere else.

If you start resistance and revolution, I would be honored to come to US and help you out anyway I can, because a people who rebels against their dictatorship for their liberties is something I admire and I would like to contribute to that if it could mean a better world for a lot of people.

Originally posted by Astronomer70
Rumors of the death of freedom in America are greatly exaggerated. True, there are those who would and do try to stiffle freedom, to withdraw bit by bit the very foundation of this great country, but such people are not winning and they will not be successful. Part of the reason they will fail is being exhibited here, on this thread, today by the members of this community. Another is the very recent Supreme Court decision concerning military tribunals. Where else in the world could a Yemeni with a fourth grade education feel free to take on the most powerful man on the globe and beat him.

Look around you at all the people going about their everyday activities without fear of government intervention or of being dragged from their homes in the middle of the night and arrested on somebody's whim. Look to our military forces. Those young men and women were not conscripted into service and forced to fight for things they did not believe in, they volunteered to serve their country. Look at our election process it is a peaceful process where the reigns of power are handed peacefully to whomever wins.

No, America has much to be thankful for and very proud of and unless we all turn complacent and inatentive it will remain such a place. Happy 4th everyone.

[edit on 4-7-2006 by Astronomer70]

astronomer you basically said everything I see in the near future that isn't yet happening. I wrote this to compel you order people to make sure it doesn't happen that way.

My generation simply is very dim right now. I see a great deal of danger ahead of us if you don't act now. Now is the time to prevent what you wrote above from happening. My generation isn't going to be willing to do it, but hopefully you can stop this all now before it becomes out of control.

yes I do look at all the people who go on without fear of the government. They can do that because they aren't educated about it. Its ironic though, when you are uneducated about what the government does, your not a threat therefor you don't need to worry. But once you are educated at what they are doing, you are a threat to them now. By being educated you are a threat. Most people aren't educated, therefor they aren't a threat anyway, so why should they be worried?

They won't be yelling about uncontitutional actions when the time comes, they will be parading behind the person who calls for it to be done. Thats the scary part to me.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
They won't be yelling about uncontitutional actions when the time comes, they will be parading behind the person who calls for it to be done. Thats the scary part to me.

that's more true than any of us might like to admit.

Originally posted by grimreaper797

astronomer you basically said everything I see in the near future that isn't yet happening. I wrote this to compel you order people to make sure it doesn't happen that way.

We're awake and we will not let it happen, but...

My generation simply is very dim right now. I see a great deal of danger ahead of us if you don't act now. Now is the time to prevent what you wrote above from happening. My generation isn't going to be willing to do it, but hopefully you can stop this all now before it becomes out of control.

Every generation feels much the same as you do--namely that their peers are too busy enjoying life to give a damn. Fear not, your generation are the future leaders of this country and they will come around in time. Our job, as the older generation, is to make damn sure they do exactly that. It is incumbent upon us to instill in your generation a sense of values such as you already seem to possess. You can help in that effort simply by believing and living by such values and by becomming a respected, successful member of your own community.

yes I do look at all the people who go on without fear of the government. They can do that because they aren't educated about it. Its ironic though, when you are uneducated about what the government does, your not a threat therefor you don't need to worry. But once you are educated at what they are doing, you are a threat to them now. By being educated you are a threat. Most people aren't educated, therefor they aren't a threat anyway, so why should they be worried?

They won't be yelling about uncontitutional actions when the time comes, they will be parading behind the person who calls for it to be done. Thats the scary part to me.

I personally think you have a much too dour and pessimistic outlook about what is happening in America just now. Our governmental system worked in the past and is working even now. You're young and energetic, get out there and galvanize people to act. Get involved in politics, volunteer your time to support someone you trust and believe in, but always remain skeptical.

Originally posted by Astronomer70

We're awake and we will not let it happen, but...

Every generation feels much the same as you do--namely that their peers are too busy enjoying life to give a damn. Fear not, your generation are the future leaders of this country and they will come around in time. Our job, as the older generation, is to make damn sure they do exactly that. It is incumbent upon us to instill in your generation a sense of values such as you already seem to possess. You can help in that effort simply by believing and living by such values and by becomming a respected, successful member of your own community.

I personally think you have a much too dour and pessimistic outlook about what is happening in America just now. Our governmental system worked in the past and is working even now. You're young and energetic, get out there and galvanize people to act. Get involved in politics, volunteer your time to support someone you trust and believe in, but always remain skeptical.

Thing is that this government hasn't been working. Its been slowly falling apart since the early 1900's. We have been letting it slip away from us for almost a century now. Everything since the early 1900's has been down hill for this nation. Non stop wars. the 20's were about the only time in the 1900's that we weren't in some sort of conflict. Our dollar is worth about 4 cents compared to the early 1900's. The Federal reserve is destroying our dollar. The government has practically handed over everything to unelected people.

Republican, democrat, libertarian, it doesn't matter. Until you give the system back to the people we are going to get worse. I have such a grim outlook because its been going downhill since we handed our money over the TFR and made it possible for them to create illegal taxes. We have let them take our country away from us.

The worst part is that it isn't just now. Bush isn't the problem and never was. The system has been broken. I don't fear for the country just because whats happening now, but because its still becoming worse. Next year this day will be even more imporant to me because it seems like the situation isn't changing. I wish for nothing more then for our votes to mean something. For the reason this country was created to be restored. For this to become america again.

[edit on 4-7-2006 by grimreaper797]

Grimreaper797 I don't care to debate our economy, banking and monetary system with you just now, but please don't forget the role of labor unions, deficit spending, etc. in your condemnation of the value of the dollar. Granted the FRB is not a government institution, or even primarily American owned, but the people are the ones who gave it any power to begin with.

Originally posted by Astronomer70
Grimreaper797 I don't care to debate our economy, banking and monetary system with you just now, but please don't forget the role of labor unions, deficit spending, etc. in your condemnation of the value of the dollar. Granted the FRB is not a government institution, or even primarily American owned, but the people are the ones who gave it any power to begin with.

exactly. The people gave it up. Thats why I am a bit worried, how long until they give up something else that they shouldn't? Our people have given away our money system. They are giving away our government to corruption and the highest bidder. How long till they give up freedoms for whatever reason?

Well, we don't give away our freedoms--they have to be bought with cold, hard cash.

Originally posted by Astronomer70
Well, we don't give away our freedoms--they have to be bought with cold, hard cash.

In recent decades, many of our freedoms have simply been "taken." I and others have made this case in our published work. Because the President and Congress do not see enough protest over certain of their policies, they feel 'justified' in passing just a few more laws...or... pushing the Supreme Court just a little further.

The powers that be have become entrenched and comfortable in their power. they feel so smug and securethat htey can afford to do what's in their best interests instead of what's good for the country as a whole.

The current brew-up over illegal immigration is just one example of many that makes this point. In the long run, we can expect that our leaders will poison our institutions to the point of collapse. For those who want revolution...that will be the moment to act.

Originally posted by Astronomer70
Well, we don't give away our freedoms--they have to be bought with cold, hard cash.

sadly...they already have been. I am just waiting for the next bid to go up. Lets see what freedom we lose next.

A few of you have sent u2's to ask me what I'm doing to fight all this.

Try this: www.politicsandpatriotism.blogspot.com...

It's where I go to speak just for me. If you don't use your own voice to say things your own way, you really will lose more of your freedoms.

Have a good night, folks. I'm off to barbecue.

I agree, it is one of the greatest freedoms we have to express ourself. We need to use it to the full extent the best we can. For everytime we choose not to express ourself we pass off the right that others would probably die to get to have.

Nowthat I am a public speaker, I run in to more people from other countries. I talked with a guy who snuck my book in to his country of origin. I was angry that he'd been forced to that. It's just not something I can relate to. I am glad to live in a country where I'm not prosecuted for the books on my shelf.

Speak while you still can.

Great op/ed piece. WATS on the way.

The fourth of July is perhaps the most important holiday on the American calender. It celebrates the creation, or at least the beginnings of the creation, of something the world hadn't seen since the days of the Greeks and the early days of the Roman Republic, a true functioning Republic. No it wasn't an overnight success, it wasn't until 1787 (?) that the constitution finished what the Declaration of Independance began, the creation of these United States. Needless to say, very important stuff to celebrate, and to protect.

How does one go about protecting that which should never be attacked? By being involved in all things civic: Voting, supporting your favorite cause in whatever legal way you can (notice I did say legal ). Not being involved because its too inconvienient "my vote won't count anyway", or "they wont listen to my voice", or any of the other cop outs I, and alot of you, hear is shameful, perhaps even, dare I say it? Treasonous to a certain extent? With very important midterm elections comeing up (they're all important, just this one may be a little moreso than most), its time to shake off the apathy and vote, get involved...etc...

I hope each and every one of you had a great Independance Day holiday, I did...

I'm at 46 years and counting , and I will state the U.S.A. remains the best country in the world in which to reside, if I thought otherwise, I'd move.

It is the U.S. Constitution that stands in the way of World Government, and the attack upon the U.S. Constitution is relentless, and the attack comes in many and varied ways, from within and without our borders. Some wish to interpret this Constitution as though it were an "evolving document", which it is not, or they wish to interpret it through the eyes of Europe, or through the eyes of the world, or through the eyes of modernity. The courts wish to interpret it through the individual justices' political eyes. I, for one, find it to say exactly what it means, hands down.

When this great document is trampled under foot, and ceases to exist, when the forces of the world are victorious in destroying the United States Constitution, all will be lost, it will be a sad, sad, day for the world.

a few rhetorical questions....

Is the pen mightier than the sword?
Are you willing to give your life "to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another"
Should the current government of this great United States of America be dissolved?
If so, what is proposed to replace it?

grim, with citizens such as you, and myriad others in this great nation, who wish to stay informed, as I grow older, I suspect the Constitution will stand.

Originally posted by smokenmirrors
a few rhetorical questions....

1. Is the pen mightier than the sword?

2. Are you willing to give your life "to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another"

3. Should the current government of this great United States of America be dissolved? If so, what is proposed to replace it?

As a historian, I do think the written word is more powerful than the sword. Thomas Payne is perhaps the best old school example of a writer who galvanized a nation. His pamphlet essay, "Common Sense," did more to rally the undecided to the cause of revolution than anything else the continentals did. In today's world, we need more voices like his. I struggle to be one of them.

When you get right down to it, very few things are worth dying for. Preservation of family is perhaps the most common reason to give up one's own life. Preserving one's own freedom should be the second, but it's not. Tyrants can get away with a lot as long as they don't threaten your ability to hold a job, feed your family, and live as you wish in some degree of privacy. I've already pledged my pen to the cause of freedom. It's only natural that I should be wiling to back it up with my own blood.

Like the people of most nations, all we really ask for is some degree of reform. I have met very few peole who actually want to tear down our government and institutions. I would like to see a fresh wave of reforms. Those reforms, in and of themselves, would change the way we are governmed without sacrificing our traditions.

The accepted wisdom at this point seems to be that revolution is coming. All I ask for is that we do our best to be sure that all other options have been explored, used, and exausted. It's nothing more than our founding fathers did. I just hope that we have the nerve to be so patient.

The true person who will be the voice will most likely be a guy who never intended to be so. Certian things will guide him to it, "a serious of unfortunate events".