It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

On This Fourth Of July (Op/Ed)

page: 4
8
<< 1  2  3    5 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 03:02 PM
link   

Originally posted by semperfortis
I don't have the problems you describe though Grim.

I have the money, the position and the connections. Yet I see no erosion of any rights I have.


you mean you see no erosion of your freedoms. Your rights are what you use to preserve your freedoms. If you dont use your rights, will you know if they are being eroded?



I am a strong advocate and participant in the "Party of my choice", (Don't want to get flagged for partisanship) and I speak out there in front of, at times, a rather large audience. I am "somewhat" unorthodox in my current position and in general I guess, so at times my speaking is not very well accepted. Yet I am able to speak, to voice my opinion at rallies, stumps and conventions.


then again semper you are also in a very different position. You are a policeman. You will be the one enforcing the laws they push, not fighting them so much. You are more likely to be able to speak out because they aren't going to arrest a cop for speaking out. You can't call a cop thats been in swat for years and such suddenly a terrorist. But also I would like to ask are you speaking out about your discontent with WHATEVER program you dislike? It doesn't have to be about freedom or Iraq war. I mean anything you are unhappy with, is that what you are speaking out about? we need to speak out about what we want done, not what we agree with. If we agree with it, move to the next subject.

When I say speak out I mean about whatever you are not happy with. if you are unhappy with the idea you are paying for social security and may never get it, are you voicing your opinion on it? If not then would it be fair to say that you are not using your rights to the fullest extent?



Being involved in computer crimes and other electronic law enforcement, I can tell you with out hesitation, I am not being monitored or tapped in anyway. I carry a weapon in the course of my profession and must do so everywhere, yet I have exercised my rights and possess a CWP, even though for me it is redundant. I have been searched, at the airport, but never unduly or unexpectedly. I vote in every election and even on occasion, as time permits, work the polls.

I am sorry, but I exercise a lot of my rights and fail to see any that have eroded or been taken from me.

Semper


When I say be a threat to the government I mean voice whatever discontent you have. Now semper be honest, are you happy with everything going on in the country? Do you think the system is perfect? If its not, shouldn't that be the reasons you exercise your rights?




posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 03:16 PM
link   


you mean you see no erosion of your freedoms. Your rights are what you use to preserve your freedoms. If you dont use your rights, will you know if they are being eroded?

Semantics




But also I would like to ask are you speaking out about your discontent with WHATEVER program you dislike? It doesn't have to be about freedom or Iraq war. I mean anything you are unhappy with, is that what you are speaking out about? we need to speak out about what we want done, not what we agree with. If we agree with it, move to the next subject.

Mainly I speak out about what needs changing. As you maybe can tell from my posting, I am not the "Usual" cop and have strong feelings about certain things. It's funny but my friends say that they can hear an actual "moan" in the crowd when I get on the stage. HAHAHAHA




When I say speak out I mean about whatever you are not happy with. if you are unhappy with the idea you are paying for social security and may never get it, are you voicing your opinion on it? If not then would it be fair to say that you are not using your rights to the fullest extent?


I do speak out about social security. I know it's a whole other topic, but SS is a "deadmans switch." Anyone depending on SS is an economic fool. What I want to see happen is for it to be a choice. I want to invest mine. Not saying everyone has too, but I should be able to invest mine if I want too, It is my money after all.




When I say be a threat to the government I mean voice whatever discontent you have. Now semper be honest, are you happy with everything going on in the country? Do you think the system is perfect? If its not, shouldn't that be the reasons you exercise your rights?


No, of course I am not happy about everything. I would love to see the IRS abolished and that is one of my main talking points. The Fair Tax is one of the best things to be proposed in years. (I have been waiting to get audited, but been lucky so far) The IRS is not all either, but you get the idea.

As you can probably tell, I am not afraid to voice my opinion. I have some pretty radical ideas, but I believe that is what is necessary to get back to where we are again proud to be living in the greatest country in the world.

Semper



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 03:55 PM
link   

Originally posted by zenlover28

Not really. The people are supposed to protect their basic liberties from the government if and when the government invades them. Which is why we have the lawsuits, which is why we have amendments, which is why the government keeps growing, which is why we are having this conversation right now. The government is here to protect only your civil rights as a U.S. citizen and to reflect the will of the people....liberties and rights...two different things entirely.


You know this government is not suppose to be a democracy right? The governments job, at the foundations of our country, were to protect the basic "rights" afforded to people. You were allowed to live free and do whatever you want so long as it didn't violate another persons basic liberties and rights. The government was created to make sure other people didn't violate your rights and liberties to do whatever you want, free of prosecution. The government was not bad to protect your safety, it was made to protect your right to protect it yourself.

Your right that freedoms was a bad word to use. basic Rights is a better word. They are there to protect your right to own a gun. they are there to protect your right to protest. They are NOT here to handle your social security, nor are they here to handle your safety.



Lawsuits will usually equal legislation on just about anything, businesses included. You see, our Federal Government, they don't discriminate when it comes to such issues...they're afraid of a umm what's that word...another lawsuit?!


lawsuits are BS. let supply and demand crush the business. If that business is doing something harmful, the people stop buying it and let the product collapse. the business will fail. The person will be put to trial if they prove he knew the product could kill. Thats that. Lawsuits are BS though. Should I get a couple quick million if my dad fell off a latter? No. If the latter breaks and my dad falls off the latter I spread the word of how dangerous the latters are and the company goes out of business. Businesses in the future that don't want to meet the same fate will make sure their product doesn't break.



Bilking of the welfare system is mainly a social problem at the State and local level. And, hey doubtful those in receipt of it will do too much to try to change anything except how much welfare they can draw by having more children...since you know they're benefiting from the government as the government provides the welfare via taxpayers...you know the drill.


I used an example. If anyone has a problem with something, go out and use your rights. Then you will not only be forfilling your duty as an american citizen you will be finding out just how eroded your civil rights actually are.




Again, we have lawsuits. Why would anyone want to go hold up a sign and protest when they can slap a big ol' lawsuit on someone or the government and make some money and not to mention more legislation?


thats the problem. Instead of doing it yourself, you pass the power to the government, making the government stronger. If you are afriad of the corporations, but the corporations can be crushed by the government, shouldn't the government worry you?



I don't believe American society can handle a "sure shot way to ensure that they can do whatever they want". And no, outside of politics we can't do whatever we want. We have a basic contract with society where we have to follow a few rules along the way. Why do you think those rules and regulations keep getting bigger and bigger? Remember i'm on your side here as far as the government getting to big for its britches. But, we should try to be objective in determining why that is if we really want changes.


If you can't do whatever you want so long as you aren't infringing another persons right to do whatever they want then that is unamerican. I don't care what law the congress passed or the EO the president signed, its unamerican and against the reason this country was founded. why do I think the rules are getting bigger? Because people care less and less as time goes so the government can make more rules.
"The more corrupt the state, the numerous the laws."
Tacitus

Every rule or law should be based on one basic thing. That basic thing is this: complete freedom so long as it doesn't violate some one elses right to freedom. If a business violates that, we will hold a trial to determine if they did and if they did they will be punished, but as individiuals not as a business. If a person does it, we hold a trial and if proven so, they will be punished. The business will pay by its loss of profits, the owners will pay by their loss of freedoms.



Society is more divided politically now than I think it ever has been. So, you can't convince me that all of these people who passionately defend whichever side they choose don't stand for something?!


what does being politically divided have to do with anything? Because we are divided doesn't mean you cant go to a protest against say income tax. If you think income tax is unjust, protest it. Don't just sit around doing nothing. If the government does something you don't like, make sure they know it, and stick at it till something happens.



Are you a business owner, Grim? You must be a business owner. Everything with you always go back to business owners. Again, lawsuits equal legislation, I don't care whose head honcho. Can I be anymore clear?


lol thats right. The person that usually blames everything on business is right now saying that government is MORE dangerous then business. What does that tell you? I think business is a very dangerous thing, but is something people control. Like I said, if you think business needs to be regulated, then the people doing the regulating are more powerful then the business, thus more dangerous. Regulation can be done by the people. Not by the government. Do your own regulating and refuse to ever shop there again or never buy that product again. Lawsuits equals power to the government for unnecessary means, can i be anymore clear? Lawsuits are stupid. Trials for the business owners who knew about it should be the ones responsible, the business will be regulated by the customers who shop it.



You're right there. But, it's not that simple anymore. I wonder why that is? Could it be ummmm lawsuits?!


ok and lawsuits just give government the power to make more laws and become more powerful. How about we just treat the individuals who knew about the problem as criminals, and then leave the business be. The business will get regulated by the customers. This government was for capitialism and free enterprise, not socialism or control on business by the government.


Right now our issue is the federal government itself.


It is, eh? That's our main issue? Well, hey you can always file a lawsuit.

a lawsuit for what? If I can file a lawsuit to eliminate all business regulation laws, I am all for it. I am not a business ownere either, I just believe I don't need to give the government power for what I can do myself. Take responsiblity, take actions yourself, solve the problem yourself, stop being lazy. That is the best advice to keep a soceity free. Everytime you take something upon yourself, you limit the power the government has. That was the point, limit government power as much as possible.



Have you ever sat and thought about the notion that perhaps WE THE PEOPLE are just too big for our government? Chew on that awhile.


"The most common way people give up their power is by thinking they don't have any."
Alice Walker

go to any regular teenager or young adult and ask them how much power they think they have. No just look at elections. How many people think their vote doesn't count. Nobody thinks they have any power anymore. "It won't make any difference" is something I hear alot. The people don't believe they have any power, so it doesn't matter how big we are as a whole, because as it stands, we are not a whole. WE THE PEOPLE don't exist as that anymore. we exist as I THE PERSON.




Nahhh, they just file a lawsuit.

Sorry if I sound crass. But, I like to cut right through the BS and get down to the heart of matters.



Then you suggest give MORE power to the government to solve the immediate problems. You are saying that the more we depend on the government to solve the problems the better. This is what creates a dictatorship, absolute control of the government. You may live the good life, but its still a dictatorship.



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 04:04 PM
link   

Originally posted by semperfortis
Semantics


far from it. Your rights are to ensure you can do whatever you want so long as it doesn't infringe on some one elses freedom. Its not freedom itself. Freedom itself is to make choice. Your rights are to ensure you have that choice to make.



Mainly I speak out about what needs changing. As you maybe can tell from my posting, I am not the "Usual" cop and have strong feelings about certain things. It's funny but my friends say that they can hear an actual "moan" in the crowd when I get on the stage. HAHAHAHA


Well thats great. I must ask though what are you planning to do. You have the people ears, now what? If the government still doesn't bother to hear you and your group out what do you do next? Of course non violent means, but you can do damage without violence. Have you done anything more then speak yet? Speaking is just to get the people into the protest. The next step is the actual protest.



I do speak out about social security. I know it's a whole other topic, but SS is a "deadmans switch." Anyone depending on SS is an economic fool. What I want to see happen is for it to be a choice. I want to invest mine. Not saying everyone has too, but I should be able to invest mine if I want too, It is my money after all.


you would agree with me then that it should be a private matter then? Stop all the taxes for it and let the people save their own money accordingly and have their own social security. People are depending on government to take responsibility to manage their money. To me that just sounds like "I am a little kid who can't hand the responsiblity of money, you be in charge of it!"

You sound like somewhat of a libertarian to me. just saying.




No, of course I am not happy about everything. I would love to see the IRS abolished and that is one of my main talking points. The Fair Tax is one of the best things to be proposed in years. (I have been waiting to get audited, but been lucky so far) The IRS is not all either, but you get the idea.

As you can probably tell, I am not afraid to voice my opinion. I have some pretty radical ideas, but I believe that is what is necessary to get back to where we are again proud to be living in the greatest country in the world.

Semper


It makes me proud to know you are an american. My only question is what do you plan to do about it. I like the idea you are talking about it, thats very important to get the people involved. But what happens after the people are involved? What must we do to back up the words? My suggestion is to organize a day where nobody goes to work. all on the same day, just nobody goes for a day. That would be serious damage and they would hear you out immediately. thats what NEEDS to be done if we want change. Words aren't enough for them. They hear us talk and just play semantics all day till we dont even want to talk anymore. We need to take some sort of actions. Doesn't need to be violent at all, peaceful protest. Civil disobediance I think it is called.

Either way I hope you can start getting more ears listening then actually do something about it. People like to talk, but that seems to be where it ends. Maybe you can do something different, at least thats my hope as a person from a younger generation who can't organize and be heard the way you can.



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 04:30 PM
link   

The governments job, at the foundations of our country, were to protect the basic "rights" afforded to people. You were allowed to live free and do whatever you want so long as it didn't violate another persons basic liberties and rights. The government was created to make sure other people didn't violate your rights and liberties to do whatever you want, free of prosecution. The government was not bad to protect your safety, it was made to protect your right to protect it yourself.


Grim...i'm going to say this very firmly. And, I hope you understand this. If I would have been alive when our government was first implemented....I WOULD HAVE HAD NO RIGHTS! Please tell me that you understand the complete and utter hypocricy and idiocy in that statement you just made. Please tell me that you do.


they are NOT here to handle your social security, nor are they here to handle your safety.


Nope, they're not. Did i make this an issue?


lawsuits are BS. let supply and demand crush the business. If that business is doing something harmful, the people stop buying it and let the product collapse. the business will fail. The person will be put to trial if they prove he knew the product could kill. Thats that. Lawsuits are BS though.


I think you need to research this issue further. Perhaps start with the EPA and why they came into existence. That's a good start. That's all i'm going to say on that.


thats the problem. Instead of doing it yourself, you pass the power to the government, making the government stronger. If you are afriad of the corporations, but the corporations can be crushed by the government, shouldn't the government worry you?


I really don't think you're following me here.


If you can't do whatever you want so long as you aren't infringing another persons right to do whatever they want then that is unamerican.


This is so unrealistic. You have a lot of faith in society, eh?


Every rule or law should be based on one basic thing. That basic thing is this: complete freedom so long as it doesn't violate some one elses right to freedom. If a business violates that, we will hold a trial to determine if they did and if they did they will be punished, but as individiuals not as a business. If a person does it, we hold a trial and if proven so, they will be punished. The business will pay by its loss of profits, the owners will pay by their loss of freedoms.


Sounds great, where do I sign up?


what does being politically divided have to do with anything?

I believe you incenuated that these people don't stand for anything, right?


a lawsuit for what? If I can file a lawsuit to eliminate all business regulation laws, I am all for it.


Oh well I thought your rights and liberties were being infringed on?!



Then you suggest give MORE power to the government to solve the immediate problems. You are saying that the more we depend on the government to solve the problems the better. This is what creates a dictatorship, absolute control of the government. You may live the good life, but its still a dictatorship.


I really don't think you followed my post at all Grim.








posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 04:50 PM
link   

Originally posted by zenlover28
Grim...i'm going to say this very firmly. And, I hope you understand this. If I would have been alive when our government was first implemented....I WOULD HAVE HAD NO RIGHTS! Please tell me that you understand the complete and utter hypocricy and idiocy in that statement you just made. Please tell me that you do.


I understand that at the time they made this the government saw you as property, which is extremely wrong. That does not change the fact that the government can no longer treat you any different then a white person. Just because they use to see you as property doesn't mean they do now. But anyway, the government is to serve the people, and since you are a person, they are to serve you as well. Science shows you are just as human as me, and will be treated the same.



Nope, they're not. Did i make this an issue?


what exactly are we fighting about?



I think you need to research this issue further. Perhaps start with the EPA and why they came into existence. That's a good start. That's all i'm going to say on that.


If people stopped buying and using products from whatever company is doing this, wouldn't that be just as effective? But then again you would actually have to sacrifice something in order to show you want something to be done. Thats the problem, people want change, but they want the product. How about we show some priorities. If you care about the environment, don't support the company. If enough people care about the environment then the company will go out of business.



I really don't think you're following me here.


I really don't see the point you are trying to make.



This is so unrealistic. You have a lot of faith in society, eh?


well my belief is that if society for the most part isn't smart enough to ensure its own survival, they don't really deserve to survive. If 90% of the population is so stupid they don't know how to survive, thats their fault. Is it unrealistic to believe people that can't survive should just be left to fall on their ass? I don't want to have the government in almost complete power simply because people are too stupid to take care of themselves.

Laws are made because certian people think they know whats best for society. If we are self destructive, well thats the peoples choice, let them be self desructive. When they are gone, whoever survives will continue on like they are suppose to.



Sounds great, where do I sign up?


Well if you can go back in time and show them that slaves and such are human being, you would have the place to sign in 1776 with the forefather of our nations. Should we rewrite the declaration of independence? Same words, sign it again dated 2006 or 2007, and say that american has become a mere image of what it was suppose to be thus we are delcaring our independence thus reintroducing the original foundations of our government?



I believe you incenuated that these people don't stand for anything, right?


a lawsuit doesn't mean you stand for something. No where in the bill of rights do I see "file lawsuits so the government can create more laws and take more power from the people which it governs" do you?



Oh well I thought your rights and liberties were being infringed on?!


by who and how?



I really don't think you followed my post at all Grim.


then what are you trying to say. All a lawsuit says is "I depend on the government to solve the problem because I am too lazy to do it myself" people have every resource to deal with the problems we encounter in society like what the EPA handles, they choose not to. Creating lawsuits further damages it by giving the government more power. They are doing the opposite of standing for something. They are telling the government to make a law about it so they don't have to deal with the problem.

Most protests we will do when a govern is at its basic foundations wont be a protest of the government. It will be protest of the business. Protesting the product. If the government starts trying to take more power, protesting the government then. You were afforded the rights you have to deal with problems yourself and be INDEPENDENT. The government protects those rights.



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 05:52 PM
link   

Originally posted by grimreaper797
I understand that at the time they made this the government saw you as property, which is extremely wrong. That does not change the fact that the government can no longer treat you any different then a white person.


It seems to me though that you want to take the Constitution as a literal document. If we go back to that...i'm just screwed I guess.


what exactly are we fighting about?
I didn't realize we were fighting. Just bantering a bit. I started out asking you about our civil liberties and rights and you get on this business tangent, etc. I'm struggling to keep up really.


If people stopped buying and using products from whatever company is doing this, wouldn't that be just as effective? But then again you would actually have to sacrifice something in order to show you want something to be done. Thats the problem, people want change, but they want the product. How about we show some priorities. If you care about the environment, don't support the company. If enough people care about the environment then the company will go out of business.
Wonderful ideal in a perfect world.


I really don't see the point you are trying to make.


I realize that. Let's just say I was more or less attempting to make a connection between our problems with big government and ourselves? Understand any better? No?



well my belief is that if society for the most part isn't smart enough to ensure its own survival, they don't really deserve to survive. If 90% of the population is so stupid they don't know how to survive, thats their fault. Is it unrealistic to believe people that can't survive should just be left to fall on their ass? I don't want to have the government in almost complete power simply because people are too stupid to take care of themselves.


I don't think taking care of yourself is the issue. I think greed (not just monetarily) would be more of the issue here. But, heck i'm about half lost in this conversation.


Laws are made because certian people think they know whats best for society. If we are self destructive, well thats the peoples choice, let them be self desructive. When they are gone, whoever survives will continue on like they are suppose to.
Yeah, sure. Great idea! Why didn't I think of that.



Well if you can go back in time and show them that slaves and such are human being, you would have the place to sign in 1776 with the forefather of our nations. Should we rewrite the declaration of independence? Same words, sign it again dated 2006 or 2007, and say that american has become a mere image of what it was suppose to be thus we are delcaring our independence thus reintroducing the original foundations of our government?


I don't know what in the heck we're talking about on any of this. You are twisting and turning everything I say! LOL I love it. Reminds me of the debates! I was attempting to show you why the government has gotten so big. I wasn't supporting it. GAWD! You're turning everything around as if I support it. Get a grip dude. And calm the heck down!



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 06:41 PM
link   

Originally posted by zenlover28
It seems to me though that you want to take the Constitution as a literal document. If we go back to that...i'm just screwed I guess.


can you tell me how so?

[quote I didn't realize we were fighting. Just bantering a bit. I started out asking you about our civil liberties and rights and you get on this business tangent, etc. I'm struggling to keep up really.

fighting was a bad choice of words. Im using business as an example. It could be any problem we face that I could be talking about. Freedoms and rights are two different things.


Wonderful ideal in a perfect world.


I guess what I am saying is in a perfect world people just speak there mind and act on it rather then be coward like and stand down. Then again Courage is the only road to freedom.



I realize that. Let's just say I was more or less attempting to make a connection between our problems with big government and ourselves? Understand any better? No?


no not so much lol. If your saying its our fault, then yes I agree completely. Thats exactly what we need to change. Ourselves. That is why I made the other Op/Ed. To say change and start acting, and that will change the government.




I don't think taking care of yourself is the issue. I think greed (not just monetarily) would be more of the issue here. But, heck i'm about half lost in this conversation.


all in all if enough people find it to be a problem, they have the power to stop it. You must understand outside the bountries of your basic rights as a human and citizen, its anything goes. Unless people are denying you your rights, they are free to do whatever they want. Unless a certian thing is denying you your rights, people really don't have to worry about it.

If a restaurant says whites only, screw them. There will be business owners that will go "hey, I bet I can make more business if I let EVERYONE come in rather then just whites". Why force them to associate with you. Do you really want to go to a restaurant that hates minorities anyway? I wouldn't want to support a place like that, and I am white. If I saw a whites only sign I wouldn't eat there. Plain and simple. 1) I have a great deal of minority friends so I take it personal 2) I don't want to support such ignorance 3) I don't want to be associating with ignorant people.


Yeah, sure. Great idea! Why didn't I think of that.
How else are people going to learn responsibility? I didn't become responsible and grown up at 15 because my parents catered to my every need. They forced me to take responsibility for my actions. If I didn't become responsible then I'd fall on my ass. Some people will make it, and some won't, thats life. The people that are strong enough and willed enough to make it will make it. The lazy people half assing it their entire life will get exactly what they paid for.



I don't know what in the heck we're talking about on any of this. You are twisting and turning everything I say! LOL I love it. Reminds me of the debates! I was attempting to show you why the government has gotten so big. I wasn't supporting it. GAWD! You're turning everything around as if I support it. Get a grip dude. And calm the heck down!


Well you are making it sound as though you support it. If you don't then what are we talking about? I know how the government became how it is now, people weren't responsible enough to do things themselves and started to rather depend on the government to cater to them. Im talking about how to change that.



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 06:56 PM
link   

Originally posted by grimreaper797

can you tell me how so?
i was joking. you know funny ha, ha.



fighting was a bad choice of words. Im using business as an example. It could be any problem we face that I could be talking about. Freedoms and rights are two different things.
yes, i realize this. Your liberties are your freedoms...you know?


I guess what I am saying is in a perfect world people just speak there mind and act on it rather then be coward like and stand down. Then again Courage is the only road to freedom.
oh dear. well, once you take our government down, i hope you're ready to take everyone else down that's going to pounce on the opportunity to run our lives.



no not so much lol. If your saying its our fault, then yes I agree completely. Thats exactly what we need to change. Ourselves. That is why I made the other Op/Ed. To say change and start acting, and that will change the government.
this i can agree with, but you do realize it's not going to be immediate. and to be honest I read you other Op/Ed and I think you really need to familiarize yourself with your rights and liberties and the laws surrounding such things. You do realize that not all freedom of speech is protected, right? I just saw where you said something in that other thread that made me wonder if you knew that.



You must understand outside the bountries of your basic rights as a human and citizen, its anything goes. Unless people are denying you your rights, they are free to do whatever they want. Unless a certian thing is denying you your rights, people really don't have to worry about it.
No it's not anything goes. You need to realize this.


If a restaurant says whites only, screw them. There will be business owners that will go "hey, I bet I can make more business if I let EVERYONE come in rather then just whites". Why force them to associate with you. Do you really want to go to a restaurant that hates minorities anyway? I wouldn't want to support a place like that, and I am white. If I saw a whites only sign I wouldn't eat there. Plain and simple. 1) I have a great deal of minority friends so I take it personal 2) I don't want to support such ignorance 3) I don't want to be associating with ignorant people.
I think society has evolved past the segregation issue.


How else are people going to learn responsibility? I didn't become responsible and grown up at 15 because my parents catered to my every need. They forced me to take responsibility for my actions. If I didn't become responsible then I'd fall on my ass. Some people will make it, and some won't, thats life. The people that are strong enough and willed enough to make it will make it. The lazy people half assing it their entire life will get exactly what they paid for.


Grim, you're so sweet. And you have so much faith in human nature. It really is touching to see someone so young and naive have so much faith in people.


Well you are making it sound as though you support it. If you don't then what are we talking about? I know how the government became how it is now, people weren't responsible enough to do things themselves and started to rather depend on the government to cater to them. Im talking about how to change that.


No, really I wasn't supporting the government getting so big. Like I said in my other post, I don't know what we're talking about.



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 07:17 PM
link   

Originally posted by zenlover28
i was joking. you know funny ha, ha.
It is hard to catch via internet. I thought you meant slavery would come back. I was confused because its hard to catch internet humor.



yes, i realize this. Your liberties are your freedoms...you know?


yes, and its important we defend our rights so we have the means to protect those freedoms.


oh dear. well, once you take our government down, i hope you're ready to take everyone else down that's going to pounce on the opportunity to run our lives.


If only people can come to realize that the majority has authority. Power can only be given to another by your consent. that means unless the majority lets those people to have the power, they won't. I won't we taking our government down, the people will. The people as a whole is where the power is. Think of it like this:

everyone has 1 power. if 400 people give one person their power, you have a guy with 401 power. He has the power of him and the power of those people because they consent to letting him have the power instead of themselves. If he gets careless and totalitarian all they have to say is "no you no longer have my backing, you don't control my power anymore." then all he has got his his power. Then he is only as powerful as every other individual. Then a group of people combine themselves together and they are the power. The majority is the one controlling the power. Power in numbers.

It is basic understanding of history that allows the majority to say "well if we let majority rule run everything, eventually it will fall" so they make certian unalienable rights for all people. That is the ultimate power they all agree to because they understand from history that democracy won't work, it will only allow dictatorship.

The greedy peoples solution to this was dumb down the majority through control and preying off of peoples cowardness and complacency. They made the future stupid, and that allows change of the system. We need to stop that. Education keeps the people in check and people keep the government in check. An uneducated nation is a doomed one.


this i can agree with, but you do realize it's not going to be immediate. and to be honest I read you other Op/Ed and I think you really need to familiarize yourself with your rights and liberties and the laws surrounding such things. You do realize that not all freedom of speech is protected, right? I just saw where you said something in that other thread that made me wonder if you knew that.


Like? My freedom of speech is protected right down to whether or not it endangers some one elses life. If what I am saying is endangering some ones life (screaming fire in a crowded building) then I am not protected. Other then that I am. I am lucky to say that in this country I can say whatever I want so long as it am not threatening a persons life by saying it. I could say "down with the american government, install communism!" and I would be completely free to say that. Am I acting on it, no.



No it's not anything goes. You need to realize this.


what am I not allowed to do? I am talking about what our country was intended to be. Not about the laws made in the passed 100 years that were meant to take away peoples freedom to do whatever they want. If I am not endangering peoples lives rights or freedoms then I am more then free to do what I want. I could blow my hand of with a grenade if I wanted to, so long as it doesn't hurt and infringe on anyone elses rights. If it does, thats when the government comes in to punish me or stop me.


I think society has evolved past the segregation issue.


exactly, you don't need laws for it. If some guy wants to do that, fine, his money going down the drain when his business fails miserably.



Grim, you're so sweet. And you have so much faith in human nature. It really is touching to see someone so young and naive have so much faith in people.


the naive remark is borderline insulting. I have faith that the people willing to survive will, and the people that aren't willing to survive should get exactly what they have coming to them. If I am not willing to work, I shouldn't be surprised when I can't survive. Unfortunately it is human nature that not everyone is going to make it. If I don't make it, I accept that. Life isn't all fair and good. I don't want other people getting brought down if I am too lazy to take responsibility for my own actions.



No, really I wasn't supporting the government getting so big. Like I said in my other post, I don't know what we're talking about.


I am unsure of how this started. It sounded like you were explaining to me how big government came to be, and I took it as you were supporting it.



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 07:51 PM
link   

Originally posted by grimreaper797

yes, and its important we defend our rights so we have the means to protect those freedoms.
Again, I really think you need to familiarize yourself with this issue.



If only people can come to realize that the majority has authority. Power can only be given to another by your consent. that means unless the majority lets those people to have the power, they won't. I won't we taking our government down, the people will. The people as a whole is where the power is. Think of it like this:


I don't see the people taking our government down anytime soon. Sorry to disappoint.


It is basic understanding of history that allows the majority to say "well if we let majority rule run everything, eventually it will fall" so they make certian unalienable rights for all people. That is the ultimate power they all agree to because they understand from history that democracy won't work, it will only allow dictatorship.


It's not working. I'll be the first to step up to the plate and say that. You act as if I'm against you entirely when I told you in another post that I was on your side as far as big government. LOL


The greedy peoples solution to this was dumb down the majority through control and preying off of peoples cowardness and complacency. They made the future stupid, and that allows change of the system. We need to stop that. Education keeps the people in check and people keep the government in check. An uneducated nation is a doomed one.


Oh how I agree an uneducated nation is a doomed one. But, exactly how did they make us stupid again?



Like? My freedom of speech is protected right down to whether or not it endangers some one elses life. If what I am saying is endangering some ones life (screaming fire in a crowded building) then I am not protected. Other then that I am. I am lucky to say that in this country I can say whatever I want so long as it am not threatening a persons life by saying it. I could say "down with the american government, install communism!" and I would be completely free to say that. Am I acting on it, no.


Well actually, no. That's not the only part of speech that is not protected. But, the other stuff really has no value to this conversation.


what am I not allowed to do? I am talking about what our country was intended to be. Not about the laws made in the passed 100 years that were meant to take away peoples freedom to do whatever they want. If I am not endangering peoples lives rights or freedoms then I am more then free to do what I want. I could blow my hand of with a grenade if I wanted to, so long as it doesn't hurt and infringe on anyone elses rights. If it does, thats when the government comes in to punish me or stop me.
LOL. I'm sorry to laugh, but I thought you were against government entirely. I thought that we were going to go about this as a 'survival of the fittest' scenario. I can't keep up. Sorry.


exactly, you don't need laws for it. If some guy wants to do that, fine, his money going down the drain when his business fails miserably.
just because we have evolved past segregation doesn't mean we've evolved past racism.


the naive remark is borderline insulting. I have faith that the people willing to survive will, and the people that aren't willing to survive should get exactly what they have coming to them. If I am not willing to work, I shouldn't be surprised when I can't survive. Unfortunately it is human nature that not everyone is going to make it. If I don't make it, I accept that. Life isn't all fair and good. I don't want other people getting brought down if I am too lazy to take responsibility for my own actions.
Sorry, if I insulted you...but it's the truth...I see it as naive. And, once again, you've lost me. I thought you stated that we were going to have a government to protect us against harm.


I am unsure of how this started. It sounded like you were explaining to me how big government came to be, and I took it as you were supporting it.


Yeah, I think you jumped the gun on that a bit. Anyhow, I agree with you on some aspects Grim. It's not like I completely disagree with you here. We have evolved past a lot of silly laws and we do know the ropes on socialization . I disagree with you though on other things. But, hey that's ok...no hard feelings on my end.

I just want to add...that we have the best government on this planet...and we don't even realize it. It's sad really.

[edit on 6-7-2006 by zenlover28]

[edit on 6-7-2006 by zenlover28]



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 08:15 PM
link   

Originally posted by zenlover28 Again, I really think you need to familiarize yourself with this issue.


you keep making yourself unclear, I still don't get what your talking about.



I don't see the people taking our government down anytime soon. Sorry to disappoint.


and then the system will collapse. The current pace won't last. If we don't want to change we will economically and probably politically collapse into a dictatorship or just economic failure.


It is basic understanding of history that allows the majority to say "well if we let majority rule run everything, eventually it will fall" so they make certian unalienable rights for all people. That is the ultimate power they all agree to because they understand from history that democracy won't work, it will only allow dictatorship.


It's not working. I'll be the first to step up to the plate and say that. You act as if I'm against you entirely when I told you in another post that I was on your side as far as big government. LOL



Oh how I agree an uneducated nation is a doomed one. But, exactly how did they make us stupid again?


probably around the invention of real media. Pulverised with views of whats cool and such. Its cool to be stupid, I see that everywhere. It is cool to not know anything and such. Thats TV and Movies right there. Its our fault for being unable to realize its not REAL! lol.



Well actually, no. That's not the only part of speech that is not protected. But, the other stuff really has no value to this conversation.


I would like to know what other ones aren't.


LOL. I'm sorry to laugh, but I thought you were against government entirely. I thought that we were going to go about this as a 'survival of the fittest' scenario. I can't keep up. Sorry.


Police are needed to be around in case some guy starts to endanger our basic rights. Its our job to defend ourselves, but police are around to help if they are needed. Pre emptive searching is not the way to go though. Police are there to catch those guys doing wrong. If you kill or injure some one, the police will get you and you will get your trial etc. The police are not their to pre emptively save your life and watch out for your safety. If they are there at the time of the crime, fine. Otherwise no, they are there to get the criminals, not protect the victims. Protecting the victims just comes with catching the victim in the act. The victim is the one defending himself, the police catch the criminal doing the act.


just because we have evolved past segregation doesn't mean we've evolved past racism.


and? I am not concerned with some guy that wants to be racist. Words are only words. They aren't infringing on your freedoms. Private property they can do whatever they want. Do I support racism? hell no. Do I support the right to say and do what they like so long as they don't deprive anyone of their rights, damn right. If they open a private business and say white only, fine. Thats their choice, their property, w/e. I won't be going there, but thats my choice.

Government facilities would be a different story. They can't have a water fountian in a police station saying white only. A government facility is not a private facility and is subject to equality amoung all people. They aren't allow to discriminate. Private property is private. Public is public, everyone pays for it so everyone is entitled to the same things and rights on public property.


Sorry, if I insulted you...but it's the truth...I see it as naive. And, once again, you've lost me. I thought you stated that we were going to have a government to protect us against harm.


no I didn't say against harm. I said gets the criminals. If your going to blow up a grenade that will hurt other people, the police are entitled to stop you. If you want to blow yourself up, fine. Police aren't for personal protection. They are to catch the criminals. You are in charge of your safety, the police are in charge of justice.



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 08:34 PM
link   

Originally posted by grimreaper797



you keep making yourself unclear, I still don't get what your talking about.
if i'm unclear it's because you don't want to hear me. the very government that you're against protects our civil rights and i'm not going to allow someone to set this country back in the dark ages and take away the protections that my government gives me. in fact, i don't think the majority is going to allow it.



and then the system will collapse. The current pace won't last. If we don't want to change we will economically and probably politically collapse into a dictatorship or just economic failure.


it's possible. if we keep going like we're going yes. it's also possible that our government may be overthrown and we will be taken over by a dictatorship.


probably around the invention of real media. Pulverised with views of whats cool and such. Its cool to be stupid, I see that everywhere. It is cool to not know anything and such. Thats TV and Movies right there. Its our fault for being unable to realize its not REAL! lol.
we can't blame the media entirely. perhaps it's our own faults if we're not educated on certain issues? i see rights being exercised as far as the media goes and our government is not attempting to control what reaches the masses. we're dumbing ourselves down. not the other way around...in my opinion.


I would like to know what other ones aren't.


little things like saying derogatory (no harm intended) things to a police officer...commercial speech is regulated..that sort of thing.


Police are needed to be around in case some guy starts to endanger our basic rights. Its our job to defend ourselves, but police are around to help if they are needed. Pre emptive searching is not the way to go though. Police are there to catch those guys doing wrong. If you kill or injure some one, the police will get you and you will get your trial etc. The police are not their to pre emptively save your life and watch out for your safety. If they are there at the time of the crime, fine. Otherwise no, they are there to get the criminals, not protect the victims. Protecting the victims just comes with catching the victim in the act. The victim is the one defending himself, the police catch the criminal doing the act.
Right.



and? I am not concerned with some guy that wants to be racist. Words are only words. They aren't infringing on your freedoms.

no it would be infringing on your rights.




no I didn't say against harm. I said gets the criminals. If your going to blow up a grenade that will hurt other people, the police are entitled to stop you. If you want to blow yourself up, fine. Police aren't for personal protection. They are to catch the criminals. You are in charge of your safety, the police are in charge of justice.
ok



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 08:47 PM
link   

Originally posted by zenlover28
if i'm unclear it's because you don't want to hear me. the very government that you're against protects our civil rights and i'm not going to allow someone to set this country back in the dark ages and take away the protections that my government gives me. in fact, i don't think the majority is going to allow it.


Now I see what your saying. Are you talking about safety as in physical protection or as in race wise? If your talking about race issues I don't think that you will have to worry to much. If a person is going to kill about racism, I doubt any law would have stopped them. If your talking about physical then I hope you realize that protection can easily be used against you.

Like I said, if the government can crush anything you fear, doesn't that make the government more powerful then what you fear? That seems a bit dangerous for any small group to have that kind of power over people.



it's possible. if we keep going like we're going yes. it's also possible that our government may be overthrown and we will be taken over by a dictatorship.


If the people realize their power, not likely. If the majority of people simply replace government and restart back to basics, I doubt that a dictatorship would come to be. A dictatorship takes a small group ruling over a large group. Nobody in this country is alike enough to have a majority dictatorship so it would have to be a small group ruling over all. If the majority are aware of their power as a majority, there is little fear of a dictatorship.


we can't blame the media entirely. perhaps it's our own faults if we're not educated on certain issues? i see rights being exercised as far as the media goes and our government is not attempting to control what reaches the masses. we're dumbing ourselves down. not the other way around...in my opinion.


well like I said it is partly our faults for falling for it. The media is doing whats in its own best interests. We fall for it, then it is our own faults.



little things like saying derogatory (no harm intended) things to a police officer...commercial speech is regulated..that sort of thing.


commercial speech (never heard of it so im asking what it is)? Things to a police officer are stupid as well. They are citizens and get the same treatment. Hateful words to a cop shouldn't be illegal if your just walking by doing nothing wrong. derogatory (as much as I look down on it and hate it) should not be illegal or anything close either. People words are just that. If you need a law to protect you from stupidity then I want a law to stop the president from talking on national broadcasts because its offensive.

Just because something is offensive doesn't mean it should be illegal. Rights don't protect you from stupidity or being offended. If a guy comes onto your property you have the right to kick them off. If they don't leave call the cops for tresspassing on private property. Plain and simple.

Speech is not a crime. Unless its resulting in physical harm like a man getting trampled from a crowd.


Right.
sarcasm or agreeing? like I said internet emotions are tuff.




no it would be infringing on your rights.


which right would that be? not protest or freedom to practice religion or owning a gun, or press, etc. which right is it?



posted on Jul, 4 2007 @ 10:29 AM
link   
Bump. I generally still feel the same, so I don't need to make a new thread. Some small changes in my views are that I think we can change government without having to take down government. A series of well structured protests and rallies would, in time, be effective. Violence takes a short time to get results, but the results aren't the best results. All good things come in due time.

One thing I definately still believe, and quote myself from last year is: "If safety interfers with freedom then it's safety not worth having."



posted on Jul, 4 2007 @ 12:46 PM
link   
Hi Guys,

Sorry about this short post but i was perusing thru the miriad of quotes and huge posts , when i noticed a post saying that the English language is not the #1 language spoken by the American people!

So what language do u guys speak when the rest of the world is not listening ??

And i must say its been nice (so far) that this has not turned into a Brit bash ... Good show . what!

toodle pip ol fruit n all that ..



posted on Jul, 4 2007 @ 02:43 PM
link   
happy 4th July.

long live the Constitution and its ideals, hopefully one day the whole world will have the same inalienable rights.

The founding Fathers gave YOU the most precious gift ever it is worth more than all the treasure in the world. YOU are the CUSTODIAN of the Constitution. YOU have a Duty to protect it and its ideals and a Duty to pass it on in perpetuity.

Shame on You who squanders such a gift.

Never "entrust" it to, a here today gone tomorrow politician.

"These are the times that try men`s souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of men and women"
Thomas Paine "the crisis" 1776.



posted on Jul, 4 2007 @ 03:15 PM
link   
Happy 4th of July and hopefully a safe one. Enjoy while you can. As a carry on from the London and Glasgow attacks, more and more Radical islam cells will cause more terrible acts of terror. Who knows even the powers that be, who like to encourage this sort of thing (if it fits in with their agenda) may spring a few of their own.
The intelligence that had got back to the UK in march 2007 was a message from Al Quaida via a christian church minister from Iraq.
The Al Quaida man said " The ones who cure you, will be the ones that kill you"
Now we have multiple Doctors arrested. The same source also said this was the beginning of a new range of terror attacks.
I hope July the 4th goes off without a big bang, but i am somewhat skeptical. I smell attacks, chaos and death.


[edit on 4-7-2007 by Hawk Eye]



posted on Jul, 4 2007 @ 03:57 PM
link   
the part of the declaration that i really appreciated today is the part that says, "experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable".

in many threads around here, people like to accuse one another of being lazy and "only talk".

the fore-fathers recognized this not as "laziness", but rather, "prudence".

it is my hope that we can reign in our government, and go in a new direction. god forbid things should ever get to the point that we should need to declare independence all over again.



posted on Jul, 4 2007 @ 05:28 PM
link   
Grimeaper,

Welcome to the red pill. You've just entered adulthood some four years early. Now what you are talking about works, but need more awareness on your part. By that I mean research.

If you look into it, you are owned already, so very little can be done, aprt from being aware and ready with the basic needs to cope in the aftermath.

Good Luck.



new topics

top topics



 
8
<< 1  2  3    5 >>

log in

join