On This Fourth Of July (Op/Ed)

"One mans Patriot, is another man's terrorist."

Perhaps those words are more true now, yet I still do not see the emergency of situation that so many espouse.
Granted I am a little bit worried about the Supreme Court's recent ruling, but these things have been known to fluctuate from time to time. I could not care less about the wire tapping. I say let the government do what it needs to so that another 3K do not have to die at some scumbags hands.

I think the potential for extreme terrorist activity and the proliferation of the terror network, means that extreme measures must be taken. NO I am not saying we should give up our rights! yet certain modifications of those rights is understandable to me.

If I had been at Ruby Ridge, I would have died fighting the ATF, probably so at WACO,(Not sure about the fanatical religious part), I just don't see that happening on a wide scale.
I disagree with the statement that this is not a war. I have been in the middle east and experienced the FEAR felt when going grocery shopping, never knowing if your cab will blow up, sitting at a cafe' will you be killed by that stranger, or that one. We do not live that way and God forbid we ever do. A War on Terror, is the one thing that will prevent us from ever having to live like that. A war waged there, in the terrorist home lands and not ours.

Semper

A war that will never end. Thats not a war, thats the end of our way of life as we knew it. When the temporary sacrifice of freedoms becomes permenant, what will we do? This war is a war designed to never end, so to me it is no war.

Now looking at it in that light, I see your point.

And again Grim, you give me pause to consider things in a different light.

Maybe one day humanity will awaken and the senseless killing will stop. I can only hope that there is an end to this.

Semper

Originally posted by grimreaper797
A war that will never end. Thats not a war, thats the end of our way of life as we knew it. When the temporary sacrifice of freedoms becomes permenant, what will we do? This war is a war designed to never end, so to me it is no war.

I'm still sitting around scratching my head trying to figure out what freedoms we have actually lost, Grim. I really am. I can't think of any civil liberty that has been or is being compromised for me. I'm not picking on you, Grim, but I really need someone to point me in the right direction here because I don't see where i've lost anything.

Originally posted by zenlover28

I'm still sitting around scratching my head trying to figure out what freedoms we have actually lost, Grim. I really am. I can't think of any civil liberty that has been or is being compromised for me. I'm not picking on you, Grim, but I really need someone to point me in the right direction here because I don't see where i've lost anything.

Are you a financial or otherwise threat to government or big business? If your answer is no then for now you haven't lost any liberties because you aren't exercising them.

People say "I haven't lost any freedoms" yet sadly a majority of them don't exercise them to begin with, so how can they even tell if they lost any? I am not saying you in particular, but people really don't see it.
How many of us actually pose any real threat to anyone of any power? I know I don't, not yet at least. Then again I am also not exercising my freedom of speech as much as I should. Right now I do not have the resources mainly because of my age. If I could, I would be out there doing everything I can to voice my opinion. Unfortunately I neither have the money nor the power to even get out there. I have no car to get place, I have little money to pay for insurance rates in New Jersey for when I do get a car, and my lack of mobility is the only thing truly stopping me.

You can be that when I am able, I will. That is when I will have to worry about my loss of freedoms, when I start to truly exercise them.

[edit on 5-7-2006 by grimreaper797]

Originally posted by grimreaper797

For everyone who is American, this piece of paper is our lives, it is our pride, and it is the most American thing about us.

there many americans who are not bound by your constitution.

Main Entry: 1Amer·i·can
Pronunciation: &-'mer-&-k&n, -'m&r-, -'me-r&-
Function: noun
1 : an American Indian of North America or South America
2 : a native or inhabitant of North America or South America

people of the USA should be called USA'rs (Pronunciation: 'yü-z&rz)

to use the word, american, is not specific enough when refering to topics of the usa.
by using the term american in the way you have, is insulting to the rest of us north and south americans.


[edit on 5-7-2006 by bigspud]

[edit on 5-7-2006 by bigspud]

Originally posted by zenlover28

I'm still sitting around scratching my head trying to figure out what freedoms we have actually lost, Grim. I really am. I can't think of any civil liberty that has been or is being compromised for me. I'm not picking on you, Grim, but I really need someone to point me in the right direction here because I don't see where i've lost anything.

I'd like to take a stab at this.

As you sit there, reading these words, you may not be at a point in your life when you can excersize many of the civil liberties afforded to you under the Constitution. As grimreaper points out, money feeds your freedom. He who has no car does not travel.

Alternatively, he who has nothing to say does not get his phone tapped. It's a lot easier than you might think to get published. I use that example becuase its the one I know. Some day, if you have something to day, you may be surprised to find that you won't be allowedto say it. that's the way the courts are going now.

Many of the discussions you see on these boards focus on what's coming. Those of us who are particularly poliitical forecast what's coming over the next ten years, and we don't like what we guess to be coming. Can we be wrong? Yes. Many of us WANT to be wrong. Trouble is, we're not.

If today's President can say they don't need a warrant to do something, it creates what the lawyers call a Precedent. A point of law. When future Presidents say that they don't need warrants to do certain things, they will say that they can do it because the last President was able to do that thing. The long range trend is for future Presidents to have total power.

That's just one way in which your liberties are being undermined. It's quiet and it's painless. It's something they hope you don't notice. they're gambling that your kids and your grandkids won't notice, either.

Grim, i'm not as dumb as I act around here. Let's pull out the facts here. I would appreciate it if you would share with me what you think our civil liberties are. I know what they are and I know that they cannot be invaded by our government and I know that if and when they are being invaded by our government the general public will realize it. Again, i'm not picking on you...just trying to understand where you are coming from here. I'm sorry to say, that I believe this is a rhetorical view. But hey, you may convince me that i'm wrong.

Originally posted by zenlover28
Grim, i'm not as dumb as I act around here. Let's pull out the facts here. I would appreciate it if you would share with me what you think our civil liberties are. I know what they are and I know that they cannot be invaded by our government and I know that if and when they are being invaded by our government the general public will realize it. Again, i'm not picking on you...just trying to understand where you are coming from here. I'm sorry to say, that I believe this is a rhetorical view. But hey, you may convince me that i'm wrong.

well I could read off the bill of right, the constitution and all that, but what difference does it make? So little of us actually use these rights, so whos to say if they are being violated? You can't violate them if nobody is really using them. Nobody is threatening the government. Nobody is actually causing a ripple effect. I hear about how pissed people are, but I haven't seen a single protest that didn't blow away in the wind within the first mention of it.

If people are so pissed off like I am, and so sick and tired of what is happening, why aren't we seeing anybody do anything? I wish I could show you that our rights are being violated, but if nobody is exercising them, how can I prove it? nobody has stuck around long enough to have their rights challanged, they tuck and run before the first sign of danger even appears.

It wasn't till african americans in the south were getting the crap kicked out of them on national broadcast till many people even realized it was happening like that. If nobody see's your rights violated, does that mean that they were never violated? I have yet to see a protest which has possed any danger to the government. never seen anybody saying "do this or we will stop going to work!"

none of that. So how can I prove to you rights are violated, no one is using them.

Grim, I seriously don't know how to respond to this post. I think you are darlin'. I think you love your country more than most and you love it enough to keep our gosh darned government in check. BUT, these civil liberties and these civil rights that you say no one ever uses...you're kidding me right?

Your positive this isn't a rhetorical point of view that you have?

show me the last protest where they demanded change. I mean kept at it regardless of what anyone said.

The first thing I had ever researched was the civil rights movement. Want to know why? Because it is the last time american people truly stuck together regardless of what anyone said, government or not. They used their rights to the full extent and were role models for change. These people received more hate and defiance then any other people in the history of north america. These same people used the constitutional rights afforded to them to enforce the changes they demanded.

THEY exercised their rights to the full extent. We are a complete pity compared to the heart and determination that movement had. We need reform, but this time around no one is willing to give it a fight. Prove me otherwise. What group has demanded change and done anything more then throw up a couple signs about how pissed they were. How many of them fasted to the point they may have died like Ghandi did? How many of them stayed in front of the place until something was done, every if people were beating them up? When was the last time something unjust happened and people did ANYTHING about it? Who is standing up for what they believe in anymore? When is the last time you attended a protest for something you believed in? when is the last time you and a group of people actually stood up for something that you felt NEEDED change?

You are not going to tell me that all these millions of americans think this country is perfect. The largest protest that I have seen recently was scattered over the US about illegal immigration. Other then that what? Where has there been any significant group of people demanding for change? Demanding their government listen? When?

Forgot the rest of the definition didnt we


Main Entry: 1Amer·i·can
Pronunciation: &-'mer-&-k&n, -'m&r-, -'me-r&-
Function: noun
1 : an American Indian of North America or South America
2 : a native or inhabitant of North America or South America
3 : a citizen of the United States
4 : AMERICAN ENGLISH

www.m-w.com...

Originally posted by bigspud

Originally posted by grimreaper797

For everyone who is American, this piece of paper is our lives, it is our pride, and it is the most American thing about us.

there many americans who are not bound by your constitution.

Main Entry: 1Amer·i·can
Pronunciation: &-'mer-&-k&n, -'m&r-, -'me-r&-
Function: noun
1 : an American Indian of North America or South America
2 : a native or inhabitant of North America or South America

people of the USA should be called USA'rs (Pronunciation: 'yü-z&rz)

to use the word, american, is not specific enough when refering to topics of the usa.
by using the term american in the way you have, is insulting to the rest of us north and south americans.


[edit on 5-7-2006 by bigspud]

[edit on 5-7-2006 by bigspud]

www.abovetopsecret.com...

that pretty much sums it up zenlover. Want to know what freedoms we have lost? Go find out first hand.

Grim there have been some sturdy protests and movements across this great land (Iraq War being one of them) and there are protests more often than what you are letting on. But, that's not the issue here...but, i'm following you on it and I tend to agree with you about the people of this Nation. But, do you want some brutal honesty here? It's going to be brutal..so prepare.

I'm going to generalize some here and that puts me in dangerous territory, but it's the truth. The majority of the people don't want change. That's the sad awful truth. Some of them..not all of them...would rather sit at home draw their checks that the government provides for them and fuss and moan about the government than actually get up off their butts and put any passion or effort into anything.

Some of them are happy driving their SUV's, paying their mortgages and going to a job that they despise every day. And the other very small majority are living the high life and it suits them. It has come to be the American way. It's easy to sit back and blame the government for it. That's the easy way out. The government is what it is because we have forced it to become that way. We love the drama of partisan politics, we love watching the political pundits go at it everynight on CNN or Fox or whichever. We need the drama, we need the excitement. We wanted our rights, we fought for them, we deserve them and in the process we have continued fighting each and every day. Each and every day somebody is suing the government or someone else. Each and every day we fuss and moan about some right that has been trampled on and off to the Supreme Court we go. Our rights and our liberties are not that broad Constitution that so many love to throw up in our faces. They are narrowly defined and WE THE PEOPLE of this great nation are to blame for that. And i'm not saying this because I am taking up for our government. Our government needs a major overhaul. BUT, it's OUR FAULT....and that is the cold hard truth.

Here is a prime example...I was saving this for my blog...but I'll use it here. The Dixie Chick saga. If I had a dime for every time the conservatives from where I live moan and groan about the Dixie Chicks and what they said about the War and President...i'd be a rich woman. Trust me I would. What they don't realize is that they are the very one's who only cherish 'freedom of speech' when it applies to them using it. The President didn't stand up, start crying and say 'the Dixie Chicks have said something bad about me, stop buying their records, stop going to their concerts"...the PEOPLE did.

Edited: I think my post is the one that pretty much sums it up, Grim.

[edit on 6-7-2006 by zenlover28]

[edit on 6-7-2006 by zenlover28]

Originally posted by zenlover28
Grim there have been some sturdy protests and movements across this great land (Iraq War being one of them) and there are protests more often than what you are letting on. But, that's not the issue here...but, i'm following you on it and I tend to agree with you about the people of this Nation. But, do you want some brutal honesty here? It's going to be brutal..so prepare.

yes but did they stick to it? When it wasn't answered did they just try harder? Become more determind?

I'm going to generalize some here and that puts me in dangerous territory, but it's the truth. The majority of the people don't want change. That's the sad awful truth. Some of them..not all of them...would rather sit at home draw their checks that the government provides for them and fuss and moan about the government than actually get up off their butts and put any passion or effort into anything.

Some of them are happy driving their SUV's, paying their mortgages and going to a job that they despise every day. And the other very small majority are living the high life and it suits them. It has come to be the American way. It's easy to sit back and blame the government for it. That's the easy way out. The government is what it is because we have forced it to become that way. We love the drama of partisan politics, we love watching the political pundits go at it everynight on CNN or Fox or whichever. We need the drama, we need the excitement. We wanted our rights, we fought for them, we deserve them and in the process we have continued fighting each and every day. Each and every day somebody is suing the government or someone else. Each and every day we fuss and moan about some right that has been trampled on and off to the Supreme Court we go. Our rights and our liberties are not that broad Constitution that so many love to throw up in our faces. They are narrowly defined and WE THE PEOPLE of this great nation are to blame for that. And i'm not saying this because I am taking up for our government. Our government needs a major overhaul. BUT, it's OUR FAULT....and that is the cold hard truth.

I agree thats the truth. And when it comes down to it, soon it will be, change or fall. We are not invincible. Our time to change is soon, and if we don't we will fail. Get everything for nothing eventually comes back to you. Thats the universal rule, relativity. You take, eventually you have to give back. Americans take and take and take, soon we will have to balance the system back out, one way or another.

Here is a prime example...I was saving this for my blog...but I'll use it here. The Dixie Chick saga. If I had a dime for every time the conservatives from where I live moan and groan about the Dixie Chicks and what they said about the War and President...i'd be a rich woman. Trust me I would. What they don't realize is that they are the very one's who only cherish 'freedom of speech' when it applies to them using it. The President didn't stand up, start crying and say 'the Dixie Chicks have said something bad about me, stop buying their records, stop going to their concerts"...the PEOPLE did.

Edited: I think my post is the one that pretty much sums it up, Grim.

[edit on 6-7-2006 by zenlover28]

[edit on 6-7-2006 by zenlover28]

Yep, well don't plan on that continuing for long. I am saying what I am because lets face it. They will either start changing or we will fall soon. This simply won't last on the current pace.

Originally posted by DarkStormCrow
Forgot the rest of the definition didnt we

Main Entry: 1Amer·i·can
Pronunciation: &-'mer-&-k&n, -'m&r-, -'me-r&-
Function: noun
1 : an American Indian of North America or South America
2 : a native or inhabitant of North America or South America
3 : a citizen of the United States
4 : AMERICAN ENGLISH

www.m-w.com...

Originally posted by bigspud

Originally posted by grimreaper797

For everyone who is American, this piece of paper is our lives, it is our pride, and it is the most American thing about us.

there many americans who are not bound by your constitution.

Main Entry: 1Amer·i·can
Pronunciation: &-'mer-&-k&n, -'m&r-, -'me-r&-
Function: noun
1 : an American Indian of North America or South America
2 : a native or inhabitant of North America or South America

people of the USA should be called USA'rs (Pronunciation: 'yü-z&rz)

to use the word, american, is not specific enough when refering to topics of the usa.
by using the term american in the way you have, is insulting to the rest of us north and south americans.


[edit on 5-7-2006 by bigspud]

[edit on 5-7-2006 by bigspud]

actually, since 3 is covered by 2 i left it out.
definition 1 is also covered by 2, so will edit that out too.

edit button is gone for that message, so i will redo here.

Main Entry: 1Amer·i·can
Pronunciation: &-'mer-&-k&n, -'m&r-, -'me-r&-
Function: noun
:a native or inhabitant of North America or South America.

p.s. most americans do not use english as thier #1 language.

[edit on 6-7-2006 by bigspud]

Originally posted by grimreaper797
yes but did they stick to it? When it wasn't answered did they just try harder? Become more determind?

What are you looking for people to do, Grim? And what makes you think they even want to protest anything?

Yep, well don't plan on that continuing for long. I am saying what I am because lets face it. They will either start changing or we will fall soon. This simply won't last on the current pace.

Society has to change. That's basically what all of this is about anyhow. The extremism we are facing in our country today...it's basically a culture war. An unspoken war with one side trying to preserve the old way of life while the other side wants a more liberated way of life (as in almost anything goes). It's unrealistic on both sides in my opinion. Moderation is key to me, but hey what the bleep do I know?!

Anyhow, keep an eye on my blog. I'm attempting to discuss some of these issues in there...if I can find the time that is. Take care, Grim!



Fixed quote

[edit on 6-7-2006 by zenlover28]

Originally posted by zenlover28
What are you looking for people to do, Grim? And what makes you think they even want to protest anything?

If they have become so lazy and complacent that they do nothing, our country has failed at the core, the people. This government was created to do NOTHING more then protect the basic liberties of people. It wasn't here to regulate business, its not here to help the people who are getting a tuff break, it is here to protect your basic rights. If it starts doing more and you don't like it, you exercise your basic rights. Your rights are not your freedom, they are your means to preserve that freedom.

If some one wants to be lazy and do nothing with their life, fine, but they have to defend that freedom of choice when its time. If they don't they won't have the option to be lazy, they will have to follow what the government says. We are giving the government more and more power, and its dangerous.

If your not willing to use your rights, your not willing to protect that freedom of choice. By using your rights, its the only sure shot way to ensure that you can do whatever you want. Outside of politics you can do whatever you want, but it is every american persons duty to defend that freedom when the time comes.

I am expecting people to exercise all their rights. Protest, get active. Stand for something and make sure everyone hears you. Make sure those people that are suppose to represent you in government hear you. Make sure you use that voice you have. I am expecting people to start standing for something. Doesn't matter what. "Stand for something, or you will fall for anything". Right now it seems like american people will fall for just about anything.

Society has to change. That's basically what all of this is about anyhow. The extremism we are facing in our country today...it's basically a culture war. An unspoken war with one side trying to preserve the old way of life while the other side wants a more liberated way of life (as in almost anything goes). It's unrealistic on both sides in my opinion. Moderation is key to me, but hey what the bleep do I know?!

it is a culture war, but neither are trying to preserve anything. One wants the government to have power over businesses and the other wants the government to have power over the people. Neither one want to have the government simply preserve the basic rights of all men so they can deal with whatever issues they have. Right now our issue is the federal government itself. We need to exercise our rights while we have the time to so we can ensure that those rights will be preserved. Those rights can be applied to anything, but when it comes time to ensure those rights are preserved, it is every americans duty to represent their opinion on the matter. That they do everything in their humanly power to represent how they feel.

or is it they are representing how they feel, and they don't care if they no longer have the right to preserve freedom?

Anyhow, keep an eye on my blog. I'm attempting to discuss some of these issues in there...if I can find the time that is. Take care, Grim!

take care.

I don't have the problems you describe though Grim.

I have the money, the position and the connections. Yet I see no erosion of any rights I have.

I am a strong advocate and participant in the "Party of my choice", (Don't want to get flagged for partisanship) and I speak out there in front of, at times, a rather large audience. I am "somewhat" unorthodox in my current position and in general I guess, so at times my speaking is not very well accepted. Yet I am able to speak, to voice my opinion at rallies, stumps and conventions.

Being involved in computer crimes and other electronic law enforcement, I can tell you with out hesitation, I am not being monitored or tapped in anyway. I carry a weapon in the course of my profession and must do so everywhere, yet I have exercised my rights and possess a CWP, even though for me it is redundant. I have been searched, at the airport, but never unduly or unexpectedly. I vote in every election and even on occasion, as time permits, work the polls.

I am sorry, but I exercise a lot of my rights and fail to see any that have eroded or been taken from me.

Semper

Originally posted by grimreaper797
This government was created to do NOTHING more then protect the basic liberties of people.

Not really. The people are supposed to protect their basic liberties from the government if and when the government invades them. Which is why we have the lawsuits, which is why we have amendments, which is why the government keeps growing, which is why we are having this conversation right now. The government is here to protect only your civil rights as a U.S. citizen and to reflect the will of the people....liberties and rights...two different things entirely.

It wasn't here to regulate business, its not here to help the people who are getting a tuff break, it is here to protect your basic rights.

Lawsuits will usually equal legislation on just about anything, businesses included. You see, our Federal Government, they don't discriminate when it comes to such issues...they're afraid of a umm what's that word...another lawsuit?!

If some one wants to be lazy and do nothing with their life, fine, but they have to defend that freedom of choice when its time. If they don't they won't have the option to be lazy, they will have to follow what the government says. We are giving the government more and more power, and its dangerous.

Bilking of the welfare system is mainly a social problem at the State and local level. And, hey doubtful those in receipt of it will do too much to try to change anything except how much welfare they can draw by having more children...since you know they're benefiting from the government as the government provides the welfare via taxpayers...you know the drill.

If your not willing to use your rights, your not willing to protect that freedom of choice. By using your rights, its the only sure shot way to ensure that you can do whatever you want. Outside of politics you can do whatever you want, but it is every american persons duty to defend that freedom when the time comes.

Again, we have lawsuits. Why would anyone want to go hold up a sign and protest when they can slap a big ol' lawsuit on someone or the government and make some money and not to mention more legislation?

I don't believe American society can handle a "sure shot way to ensure that they can do whatever they want". And no, outside of politics we can't do whatever we want. We have a basic contract with society where we have to follow a few rules along the way. Why do you think those rules and regulations keep getting bigger and bigger? Remember i'm on your side here as far as the government getting to big for its britches. But, we should try to be objective in determining why that is if we really want changes.

I am expecting people to exercise all their rights. Protest, get active. Stand for something and make sure everyone hears you. Make sure those people that are suppose to represent you in government hear you. Make sure you use that voice you have. I am expecting people to start standing for something. Doesn't matter what. "Stand for something, or you will fall for anything". Right now it seems like american people will fall for just about anything.

Society is more divided politically now than I think it ever has been. So, you can't convince me that all of these people who passionately defend whichever side they choose don't stand for something?!

it is a culture war, but neither are trying to preserve anything. One wants the government to have power over businesses and the other wants the government to have power over the people.

Are you a business owner, Grim? You must be a business owner. Everything with you always go back to business owners. Again, lawsuits equal legislation, I don't care whose head honcho. Can I be anymore clear?

Neither one want to have the government simply preserve the basic rights of all men so they can deal with whatever issues they have.

You're right there. But, it's not that simple anymore. I wonder why that is? Could it be ummmm lawsuits?!

Right now our issue is the federal government itself.

It is, eh? That's our main issue? Well, hey you can always file a lawsuit.

We need to exercise our rights while we have the time to so we can ensure that those rights will be preserved. Those rights can be applied to anything, but when it comes time to ensure those rights are preserved, it is every americans duty to represent their opinion on the matter. That they do everything in their humanly power to represent how they feel.

Have you ever sat and thought about the notion that perhaps WE THE PEOPLE are just too big for our government? Chew on that awhile.

or is it they are representing how they feel, and they don't care if they no longer have the right to preserve freedom?

Nahhh, they just file a lawsuit.

Sorry if I sound crass. But, I like to cut right through the BS and get down to the heart of matters.