Should Holocaust denial really be a crime?

I mean there is plenty of conspiracy theories out there, but in some European countries, denying the holocaust is a CRIME! so called downplaying or what ever, doesn't this REAK like a conspiracy for researchers to find the truth?

I am not saying the holocaust never happened, but I am personally not convinced of the severity, and why should serious researchers on this topic be imprisoned?

When will they start to make it illegal to deny that 9/11 was commited by terrorist? what next? spreading lies about "supposed" aliens and spreading fear?


[edit on 22-2-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

Denying the holocaust should not be a crime.
The holcaust is a historical fact wriiten about by historians on both sides just about 60 years ago ,I'm sure there are a lot of press reports from the time regarding the happenings as well.

So my point is it should not be illegal to deny the holocaust because to say it didn't happen just shows ignorance and that's denied in here.

Not all facts might have been straight, they might have been bended by prop-aganda or forced to do so.

I certainly think it's more ignorant to just assume everyone was right, I am considdering both sides, but I think there is something more to it.

No more so than being an idiot should be a crime...

everyone should have the right to make a fool of himself... but not to make a fool of others...

Speaking as an American and someone who was raised jewish I can honestly say that I do not think holocaust denial should be a crime, for the simple reason that once you start prosecuting people based on what they think you are headed down an incredibly horrifying and slippery slope.

Having said that however I think it would be very appropriate to make holocaust deniers wear a small yellow patch on their clothing in the shape of a dunce cap.

Spiderj

The law isn't intended to operate quite as narrowly as just 'Holocaust Denial', but more as a way of having legislation to control extremist right-wing comments, essentially to curb open Nazism.

I have wept at the reading material I have seen of the holocaust...it was a crime against humanity to a horrendous magnitude.

But....being ignorant isn't a crime. It's just stupid.

I saw the news article (HERE) about that guy who got 3 years for just this!

I am aware that his comments from 1989 were ridiculaous and the fact that mass genocide must be acknowledged but this sentance is rediculous.

"I made a mistake when I said there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz," he told the court in the Austrian capital.

Surely it would make more sense to educate the ignorant to the fact. Have these people visit Auschwitz or speak to somebody who survived it. Show the many pictures readily available of people within the death camps.

I could only see this extreme sentence as being a precursor in allowing prosecution of anybody who may use the denial of holocaust as a weapon.. say Islamofascist for example.

If these people want to deny it, that is their ignorant problem. The Holocaust was not just about the extermination of Jews, it was also involved with the extermination of homosexuals and other who did not fit into the Nazi psuedo religious idealism. Link

I am not sure what basis this act is illegal?

Is it Ignorant? Yes.
Should it be punishable? I totally agree.
Is this punishment excessive? Absolutely.

Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo
I mean there is plenty of conspiracy theories out there, but in some European countries, denying the hollocaust is a CRIME! so called downplaying or what ever, doesn't this REAK like a conspiracy for researchers to find the truth?

I am not saying the hollocaust never happened, but I am personally not convinced of the severity

Why?

and why should serious researchers on this topic be imprisoned?

Becuse these guys aren't researchers, they're nazis.

The problem here is two-fold. The first is really that these guys aren't researchers, they're racists spreading racist trash and lies and nazi propaganda and pretending that its historical research. Their lies are complete bunkum. Thats the problem with the researchers in particular.

The problem with the idea of holocaust denial is that its nazism, and nazism is illegal in many places in europe. Thats really the big basis for holocaust denial being a crime, that its not just evil racist lies, but that its nazism, and the last time the nazis were around, they tried to destroy the state, so of course the state has made nazism illegal.

So I don't think that one can talk about holocaust denial being made legal, without first talking about making nazism legal again.

Is saying the Holocaust never happened an actual crime? I mean if two people are talking in a pub and one turns to the other and says "You know, the holocaust never really happened", can he be arrested?

If someone writes a book and in that book, it says, "I have done a lot of research and I am firmly convinced that the Holocaust never happened." Can he be arrested?

What is this law?

In answer to the original question, no, I don't think it should be against the law, but I'm a US citizen, where we have free speech (so far).

Why would it be any different than denying 9/11 was committed by terrorists or denying God exists or denying the Crusades?

I get the Naziism slant, but can't you arrest people for being Nazis without regard to denying the Holocaust? I mean, I could think the Holocaust never happened and be totally innocent in my view, couldn't I?

I mean, really, to say that denying the Holocaust means you are a Nazi sounds suspiciously like saying that drawing a cartoon of Mohammad means you think all Muslims are terrorists...

[edit on 20-2-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

Nygdan: Being racist is not a crime. Harming someone is a crime. Whether they harm that person for race reasons or any other should make no difference.

Whether they're a researcher or a racist fool is not important, the point is that they are free to say whatever they want and that nothing should stop them from saying that.

[edit on 20-2-2006 by LoganCale]

Making public statements that trivialize or downgrade the holocaust is a crime, but intentionally publishing inflammatory and derogatory cartoons, knowing they would provoke a violent reaction, is an honorable and defensible right.

Reminds me a little bit of the anti-mask ordinance. Here’s an article about it getting shot down in my home town.

www.rickross.com...

The anti-mask law keeps anyone above the age of 18 from wearing a hood or facial covering in public, with an exception made for religious, health, and safety reasons.
If your not afraid of showing your face, then you can assemble with your group in public (surprise, surprise, this law usually smothers open Klan activity in the areas where it's put into effect).

Like the Holocaust denial laws, this is used as a tool to suppress extremist groups. Though, if enacted in America, these Holocaust laws would infringe on our rights.

Also, here's something off of wikipedia concerning the European Convention on Human Rights.

"According to Article 17 of the Convention, nothing in the Convention may be construed so as to justify acts that are aimed at destroying any of the very rights and freedoms contained therein. "

Article 10 of their Convention gives basic freedom of speech rights, and is the article often cited by "Holocaust revisionists" in attempts to defend their actions.

My question: Does America have an equivalent to article 17?

[edit on 21-2-2006 by EntangledWiththeCat]

I tried to try writing a large post of this topic but my windows was hijacked by Yahoo Gadgets when I tried to look up a word in the dictionary.

I will not write that entire post again so I will ask a question...

Since downplaying the hollocaust is so bad, what if they do the opposite and make it sound worse than it was I.E. 10 Million got killed, how would you react to that?

I don't know GrOuNd_ZeRo. Who are "they."
How would you react?
Are "they" actual researchers, with reputations for honesty, who use believable sources?

Lets all remember where Holocaust denial is against the law - Austria and Germany. I generally don't agree with making it illegal, however we should really think why these particular countries might be a little bit sensitive....

Here in the UK people are free to be racist, moronic, history deniers as long as it doesn't incite violence or racial hatred. However it is very hard to feel any sympathy for someone who could write this poem for his child:

I am a baby Aryan/Not Jewish or sectarian/I have no plans to marry an/Ape or Rastafarian.

As Irving did. The man is scum.



[edit on 21/2/06 by FatherLukeDuke]

I am not a jew, but good lord! these humans who choosed to be loyal to their religious beliefs were persecuted for centuries!!!! Even in our modern times where we thought we were civilised and cultured ( unfortunately, nazis were a disgrace to humanity - genocide of a massive scale and now, radical muslims had been calling for the deaths almost daily!!)

C'mon, even if it was not made a crime, where is your conscience? These jews are no different from us - they bleed red blood just like us, they work hard, they love their kids - these are HUMANS we are talking about. They dont need nor want pity for they are prepared to die so that others may live.

They only want us to know the truth of history, of how despical some despots are and readily blame jews ( or anyone else if proved handy enough) to keep themselves in power, ruling over others thru hate and fear. They are a lesson for all of us who seek for the truth and belief in that we humans are of a higher moral integrity than beasts.

History can be disputed, the Holocaust was horrible but if someone has a differing opinion thats their right to disagree. 6 million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust, 30 million Russinans were murdered by Stalin, and 100 million Chinese were murdered by Mao, there is so much focus on the Holocaust because as a demographic the Jewish population is very wealthy and successful and they focus attention on it. What happened to the Jews is no worse than what happened to the Russians or the Chinese.

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
Lets all remember where Holocaust denial is against the law - Austria and Germany.

Thank you for that information. I thought it was the law in the UK as well. I honestly know nothing about this so every piece of information helps. I guess it's time for some research on the subject.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
C'mon, even if it was not made a crime, where is your conscience?

I don't get this. My conscience is fully present. I don't deny the holicaust but I don't understand it being AGAINST THE LAW to do so. It's not against the law to deny God. It's not against the law to deny slavery. Why this particular one religion/race? And denying a part of history doesn't necessarily make a person racist.

This law reminds me of 'blanket laws', which I hate. They make an innocent action against the law in hopes of suppressing an actual crime. For example, on a small scale, kids can't wear certain colors to school because they represent one gang or another. And the other gang will get upset and start cutting people. Who's at fault here? The gang member with the knife! Not the kid who wore the red shirt.

But they suppress the kid who wore the red shirt so not to "offend" the gang member and incite him to stab! It's like suppressing the cartoon maker so as not to "offend" the radical, angry criminal who's just waiting to be incited to burn and kill.

I know Holocaust denial isn't against the law here (USA) and I'm glad. Not that I deny it, I don't. But it's a clear cut case of legislating Political Correctness and replacing the right to Free Speech. And I have a thing about that.

These laws seem to be "thought crimes" people give there opinion about a historical event, and if that opinion goes against the mainstream way of thinking they are labeled as nazi.

So is the world in witch we live. Do you expect it to get better or worse??

This could become Huge people of ATS.....whats next

deny ignorance
deny the offical 9/11 story
deny the fact of global warming
deny the JFK assasination
deny the USA civil war was about freeing the slaves
deny the patriot act is a good thing...

stay tuned im sure we haven't heard the last of these types of laws