Should Holocaust denial really be a crime?

This is not just opinion, it is a well thought out attempt, on the part of anti
semites, to demonize an entire group of people as liars, and thieves, or worse.

"The Holocaust-myth is an attempt on the part of the Jews to punish Germany for daring to stand up to the International Jew during the '30's, and '40's". This, or similar crap is what is spewed by these hate-mongering whack jobs.

This subject is just about as black and white as it gets. Freedom of Speech and Thought is a wondrous and precious thing, and should be protected. But this is not just a free speech issue, it is about hatred masquerading as free thought. It is an attempt to cultivate hatred of a group of people who have done nothing to deserve it. Hundreds, no over a thousand, of years of pogroms, and massacre. This needs to be suppressed.

I realize that not many here seem to feel as strongly as I do about this. Our freedom of expression is used against us as a weapon of hatred, and needs stopping.

Originally posted by seagull
But all too often revising the history of the Holocaust is merely the prelude to an attack on the Jews.

True...But it would also seem that there are a great many people out there prepared to shout 'nazi' from the rooftops when ANY deviation from received wisdom is attempted.

This is unfortunate because a genuine attempt to elucidate futher upon events of WWII that, with regard to Jewish extermiation, utilises material some may find unpalatable will be immediately dismissed by a cacophany of what seem to be fairly entrenched beliefs.

As a result, I don't think we will ever get to know the full truth.

Originally posted by seagull
This is not just opinion, it is a well thought out attempt, on the part of anti
semites, to demonize an entire group of people as liars, and thieves, or worse.

Some could (and probably do) say the same thing about atheists.

So, if someone's attemting to do something, they're as good as guilty? I understand they're hate-mongering whack jobs, but so is the KKK. So is the group God Hates "Gays" and others.

Freedom of Speech and Thought is a wondrous and precious thing, and should be protected. But this is not just a free speech issue,

Why not?

(If this was a black and white subject, we wouldn't be debating about it. )

it is about hatred masquerading as free thought. It is an attempt to cultivate hatred of a group of people who have done nothing to deserve it.

Hatred is not against the law. Again an ATTEMPT to do something is not the same as doing it.

People hate me and I don't deserve it.

People hate gays and they don't deserve it.

People hate blacks and they don't deserve it.

People hate Muslims and they don't deserve it.

People hate Christians and they don't deserve it.

People hate Jews and they don't deserve it.
What's the difference?

I just don't understand what is special about Jews that they need to be protected from hatred. Action, I can understand. Everyone needs protection from criminal action. Feelings? No.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Again an ATTEMPT to do something is not the same as doing it.

Come come, BH. In today's world the precautionary principle is very much in vogue. Surely some of the current, not to mentioned desired, terror legislation gives us some indication of that!!!!!

QUESTION!

Why does GW Bush and Dick Cheney , both Protestant from Southern and Western states, have as many as seven men of Jewish faith determining policy in the White House?

Richard Perle
Paul Wolfowitz
Douglas Feith
William Krystal
Scooter Libby

I thought I would ask the question here on 2/22/06 before it became illegal to speak of Zionist agendas!

Originally posted by YIAWETA
QUESTION!

Why does GW Bush and Dick Cheney , both Protestant from Southern and Western states, have as many as seven men of Jewish faith determining policy in the White House?

Richard Perle
Paul Wolfowitz
Douglas Feith
William Krystal
Scooter Libby

I thought I would ask the question here on 2/22/06 before it became illegal to speak of Zionist agendas!

Cos they all love Leo Strauss!

Originally posted by KhieuSamphan
Come come, BH. In today's world the precautionary principle is very much in vogue. Surely some of the current, not to mentioned desired, terror legislation gives us some indication of that!!!!!

Yeah, it's in vogue, all right. And heaven know's that's SO important to me! I'm always up on the latest fashion!

I have absolutely no problem with a legitimate exploration of the Holocaust and the events leading upto and surrounding it. The operative word here is legitimate. Those are not the people I am refering to.

I am refering to Zungel, Austin App, David Duke, Arthur Butz, and so many more. These people never met a Holocaust fact they couldn't twist, or manipulate. The common threads are an attempt to rehabilitate Hitler into some sort of misunderstood man, who was mislead by evil men, or it was all a conspirecy by the Jews for their own neferious reasons. Another common ideology is their desire to "free the white race", under the banner of some sort of resurected National Socialism. The spector of which raises its ugly head all too often in Europe, and to a lesser extent in the U.S.

I realize, only too well, that I have a habit of overstating when I feel strongly about a subject. This is one subject I feel strongly about.

Seven Jews in the Administration? Oh, yeah, clear signs of a Zionist plot. Somehow I just knew the Bush Administration would come up in some shape, or form. This time its as pawns of the evil Jew, or something of the sort. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that they are freinds of the president, and/or competant at their jobs (though I have some personal doubts as to the level of that competence). Nope, just that they are Jews.

So I am sure you'll be more than willing to answer your own questions, won't you?

Originally posted by seagull
I realize, only too well, that I have a habit of overstating when I feel strongly about a subject. This is one subject I feel strongly about.

I have no problem with that. I do that myself, if you hadn't noticed. And I agree with everything you've said. Except I don't agree that we (or anyone really) should use the law to dictate what people can say, think, believe, write, draw, etc.

And if we accept that denying the Holicaust is against the law and should be prosecuted, what's to stop gay people from insisting on a law that prevents people from speaking against them? What's to stop black people from legislating anti-slavery speech?

And I'm still not getting an answer to why Jews are different than all other hated groups. Most people belong to a hated group. Men women, blacks, Puerto Ricans, Catholics... Why are Jews different?

Why is it different? I want to be very careful how I say this, because I don't want to offend. Truely, I don't.

Length, and severity of persecution is the first thing that comes to mind. I am not implying that other forms of persecution aren't bad, of course they are. I do not mean to deminish that fact at all. I am only saying in the magnitude of the bias. A thousand years plus of persecution and pogroms. I can not think of a single nation on Earth that hasn't at one time or another, either officially or unofficially, sanctioned the Jewish people. If there is one out there, please let me know.

I think the "true" reason why this law was enacted.

Was to stop it from Happening again.

But like the war on Drugs. Anytime you illegalize an action. It becomes a Panacea for the masses. ("It must be true since the Government is against it") The same can be said of UFO buffs, And any other "conspiracy" under the Sun.

It was persecution that helped lead to the production of the mein Kampf. Which helped lead to the Formation of the Nazi party. But I truly think, That if lots of people have Read it Before Hitler's Rise to power. Then Perhaps the Nazi's would only be a footnote in history.

Msnevil.

I would be as closeminded as those I rail against if I didn't agree with some of what you are saying. Only in this will I disagree with you, National Socialism, in whatever shape it rears its head appeals to the lowest common denominator amongst its adherents, "Nothing that happens to you that is bad, is your fault. It's the outsider, the "Auslander". Who amongst us all, throughout history has always been the outsider, the ones who didn't, and quite frankly did not want to, fit in? It was the Jew, others too of course, but more often then not, it was the Jew.

sorry. I'm doing it again. I tend to get a little lecturey when I feel strongly about a subject.

I don't mean to deminish others who have fallen victim to pogroms, and what we can euphemistically call "ethnic cleansing". If I have given that immpression, I do most humbley apologize.

Seagull, If there were seven hispanics or seven blacks in the Bush White house there would be stern criticism [it would be termed racism]. But, the fact there are Zionist influences in this administration let's not question or criticize or we'll be deemed anti-semites. In my book, nobody gets a free pass. Imply what you will, I stand by my distain for Zionists.

Yiaweta, I'm going to be Forced to be rude on this one. To make a point.

Who cares if there are 7 "Jews" in the Adminstration. Do you Realize That I, like Most Americans. Have Jewish Ancestory.

Are you going to Accuse me of Trying to instigate a Zionist conspiracy. Just Because I am Jewish By Name only. Quoting Some "Elders of Zion" or other "hate made up nonsense".

I sorry, That you hold such a bigoted belief. But I will fight for your right to speak your "filth".

(And that answers your question Seagull, Awareness destroys ignorence.)

I have a dream that one Day, Man Shall simply Be called "human Beings". Not Black American, Hispanic, Caucasion, Or other "Branding" names.

Sorry, Seagull; I don't buy your argument. You say that you're in favor of free speech unless...

The bottom line it that I see you believing that if saying or thinking something is really, REALLY, REALLY bad, then it's okay ot outlaw it and forget about "free speech".

And who determines it it's really, REALLY, REALLY bad?

Seagull!

No. That doesn't cut it, with me or (it appears) most of the other posters here.

The only reason why such a law came to pass was because of a widespread movement instigated by anti-semites, the relics of our cruel past who had been publishing, posting and inflaming humanity with their horrible claims to deny that the holocaust ever happened or only limited amounts and whatever trashy reasons they can come up with, an evil opportunity to attack the jews, of all other human communities, yet again!

The only way for evil to win is for good men to stand aside. And legislators sure do know hogwash when they see one, thus once again, the executives had to step in to stop such despicable attacks yet again in our modern century. And they will not hesitate to enact any other laws should one community intends to spread lies, hurt or harm about another. It is time we evolved from learning humanity past mistakes instead of repeating it.

Anyone is free to believe in whatever concepts as opposed to the truth, as much as they want, even if they were to worship pig's droppings. But such freedom ceased when it starts to force, harm or hurt others to believe concepts as they do or the lack of such conceptualised beliefs not based on truths.







[edit on 22-2-2006 by SeekerofTruth101]

Originally posted by msnevil
I have a dream that one Day, Man Shall simply Be called "human Beings". Not Black American, Hispanic, Caucasion, Or other "Branding" names.

Me, too! And I don't believe that's going to happen as long as we separate out different religions and races and make 'special' conditions for them. I feel the same about Black History Month (and other 'special' acknowledgments). As long as we set aside a special month for black history, and a special law for Jewish persecution, we are separating and dividing, not unifying.

no because it would lead to punishing everybody who asks questions are doesn't want to accept if the facts are really as they are being told.
as evidence gathered by mr irving leads to the conclusion that several buildings in the best know kamps were build quickly after the war ended.

msnevil, Right on cue with "speaking my filth". You apparently didn't read my previous post where I admit to being half Jewish and married to a Jewish girl. I accused 'you' of nothing. I do however accuse the likes of Perle , Wolfie and Feith as being men driven by a lust so great for power and control that all resistance is squashed at any cost. Richard Perle appeared on Bill Maher's Real Time a year ago and when introduced as "The Prince of Darkness" seemingly found great delight in the label and made 'no' attempt to dispell such a moniker.Do you feel as though these type of people represent you?