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Should Holocaust denial really be a crime?

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posted on Feb, 23 2006 @ 10:01 AM
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Why are they there? Maybe because GW didn't take the time to look and weed out the Jews?
You know, there seems to be a WHOLE lot of pale people in the administration; is there some sort of White-Power conspiracy at work?




posted on Feb, 23 2006 @ 10:40 AM
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Originally posted by YIAWETA
Seagull, If there were seven hispanics or seven blacks in the Bush White house there would be stern criticism [it would be termed racism]. But, the fact there are Zionist influences in this administration let's not question or criticize or we'll be deemed anti-semites. In my book, nobody gets a free pass. Imply what you will, I stand by my distain for Zionists.
Yiaweta how is having 7 Jewish people in an administration the size of Bush's the start of a conspiracy? Who cares what faith, creed, race or whatever a person is as long as they do the job? By the way scamper in case you hadn't noticed Dr. Rice is black and so what she's great at her job. These attitudes are exactly why Holocast Denial is illegal in some countries it is simply their attempt to make sure it doesn't happen again and isn't forgotten. The Jewish people have long been the world's favorite scapegoats and the victims of massacres and pograms that being said I recognize the other victims of Hitlers plan for a "Master Race" also died by the hundreds of thousands in the camps Gypsies, Gays and so on. How about this we all stop hating someone else because they are different from us and start celebrating the differences and educate ourselves and our children and quit disdaining anyone else. Seagull you aren't the only one who gets on thier soapbox so I'll get off mine. Sorry but this subject really gets under my skin.



posted on Feb, 23 2006 @ 11:37 AM
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That's benevolent dictator Seagull to you
.

I do understand the points you are making, truely I do. And were it not for the sheer amount of unaudulterated hatred involved in this issue I would wholeheartedly agree with all of you. How much tolerance is finally too much? I've reached my limit long ago, you haven't, and that speaks well for you, all of you. We go on and on about tolerance for other ideas no matter how distasteful or abhorent they might be, all the while that tolerance is being used as a weapon against a segment of our society.

I've spoke my piece, although not for the last time I am sure. Thanks for argueing, I mean conversing, with me.

Told you I'd speak up again.

Dr. King's "I have a dream" speech was, and still is, an eloquent call for unity of the races, and creeds. But unfortunately, it is still a glorius dream. The sad reality is there are still people out there who for their own reasons promulgate hatred of the "other" in their midst.

[edit on 23-2-2006 by seagull]



posted on Feb, 23 2006 @ 12:06 PM
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Originally posted by seagull
Dr. King's "I have a dream" speech was, and still is, an eloquent call for unity of the races, and creeds. But unfortunately, it is still a glorius dream. The sad reality is there are still people out there who for their own reasons promulgate hatred of the "other" in their midst.


It's an excellent goal and we should all do what we can to get closer to that goal personally. However, we can't force others to also move towards that goal. We can inform but not force. Arresting someone for thinking differently and speaking their opinion is a step in the wrong direction because it will not cause that person to think differently at all and because it's not anyone's place to tell someone else how to think. Racism is stupid and primitive. But if I want to be stupid and primitive it's my right.



posted on Feb, 23 2006 @ 12:29 PM
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I'm all for it. King was an excellent minister by the way (not just a civil rights leader).



posted on Feb, 23 2006 @ 12:37 PM
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I am obviously missing my point here. So I will try again, and again...and again.

Yes, we do have the right to be primitive and stupid. Indeed we do. But not to the detriment of others, no matter Jew, Gentile, Black, White, Yellow, Gay, Straight, Whatever! Our rights to be primitive and stupid end when it becomes hateful towards others. Sanctions should be the LAST resort, and if education and refuting these latterday nazi wannabes works, I'll lead the parade, I am just afraid that it is centuries too late in this case. You've no idea how much I hope I'm wrong.



posted on Feb, 23 2006 @ 01:14 PM
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Originally posted by seagull
Yes, we do have the right to be primitive and stupid. Indeed we do. But not to the detriment of others, no matter Jew, Gentile, Black, White, Yellow, Gay, Straight, Whatever! Our rights to be primitive and stupid end when it becomes hateful towards others.


And that's where I disagree. I have the right to hate anyone I choose. Acting on that hatred in a violent manner is illegal and rightfully so. But just disliking, distrusting or even hating an individual, a group of people, or a culture should never be illegal.



posted on Feb, 23 2006 @ 01:35 PM
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TC, They're there because they own the White House. This issue should get under everyone's skin and our ability to speak of it is essential. Enjoy it while you can. There is a day coming where any criticizm of the Zionist plague will be forbidden here in America. I've already been harranged here so it appears most of you will welcome censoring.



posted on Feb, 23 2006 @ 02:04 PM
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Originally posted by YIAWETA

the Zionist plague



Can you please be so kind and explain to me what that "Zionist plague" is?



posted on Feb, 23 2006 @ 02:25 PM
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This may help to explain.



www.patriotist.com...



posted on Feb, 23 2006 @ 02:27 PM
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No, not at all.

Please explain to me what you mean when you say "Zionist plague"..

Furthermore, I am highly interested in why you think the term Zinoist has something to do with Holocaust denial (= the topic of this thread)



[edit on 23-2-2006 by Riwka]



posted on Feb, 23 2006 @ 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by YIAWETA
There is a day coming where any criticizm of the Zionist plague will be forbidden here in America.

I would also love to hear about your definition of a Zionist plague because going by the dictionary, that's a pretty bold statement.

Without further clarification, I could take this statement to mean that you think that any Jewish person who supports Isreal is an infectious disease afflicting your country.

You wouldn't want us to think that would you?



posted on Feb, 23 2006 @ 03:05 PM
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Riwka, You read that entire article in two minutes?.. ..read it!



posted on Feb, 23 2006 @ 03:14 PM
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duzey, Don't get too assumtive there my friend. I have not and never will misrepresent the feelings or intentions of Jews anywhere. 99% of Jews are not Zionist. This is not some broad brush of hate I'm wielding here and I fully realize this to be a slippery slope. But , for any of you to deny that there is a serious problem in Washington when policy makers in Washington carry dual citizenship and send our troops to places to do they're bidding is mind bloggling to me. Stop trying the anti-semetic angle. Come up with a valid response!



posted on Feb, 23 2006 @ 03:28 PM
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FYI, the reason I asked for clarification was so that I would not be making an assumption based on your usage of the phrase 'Zionist plague'. I told you what it meant to me and wanted to know if they meant the same for you. In short, the reason I asked for clarification was so that I wouldn't be making an assumption.
Would you care to help me out and tell me what 'Zionist plague' means to you?

And what does this 'Zionist plague' in America have to do with Holocaust denial laws in Germany, Austria, France, Israel, Slovakia, Belgium, Czech Republic, Lithuania, Poland, Romania and Switzerland?

I also think that the US and my country, Canada, can be fairly one-sided in it's dealings with Israel. The difference is that I would never use the term Zionist plague as a description for it.



posted on Feb, 24 2006 @ 12:35 AM
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I think what Yiaweta is trying to point out. Is that the Jews who support Isreal. Rule the Bush administration. And proberly would like to rule the world as well?

But like his slippery slope point. A lot of Anti-Zionists use "only Certain Jews" as a calling Card. When they Truly Hate All Jews. (Ie Closet "jew haters")

I attempted to call a Bluff. To see if he truly Was a Closet Type person. Or part of the Liberal Fringe who Thanks the Zionist Jews are Trying to take over the World. (Jew haters come from both sides of the spectrum.)

So Far, What I see is this. "I don't like Zionists, But Jews are ok." Define Zionist to me, And tell Me Why they are a plague?

(Edit: Grammer.)


[edit on 24-2-2006 by msnevil]



posted on Feb, 24 2006 @ 09:44 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Why would it be any different than denying 9/11 was committed by terrorists or denying God exists or denying the Crusades?

Because there is no Jihad Party in the US that managed to mount a rebellion, take over the state, try to exterminate an entire race, and go on to try to conquer the world.
If there was such a party, I doubt that, after it had been overthrown and the nation torn apart in the process, that membership in that party would be legal, or that apologia for it would be taken as anything but illegal hate speech.
So, as far as it bein illegal in the US, I'd have to say 'no', however, the US is moving in that direction, wrt hate crime laws. In germany, well, I really can see why they'd outlaw nazism in all its forms, including holocaust denial.


It's like suppressing the cartoon maker so as not to "offend" the radical, angry criminal who's just waiting to be incited to burn and kill.

On the other hand, the mohammed cartoons were clearly created in the contextual understanding that they woudl greatly offend muslims, and that they'd be used as part of a greater movement to possibly enforce stricter laws and legalized discrimination against muslims, iow, could be construed as a hate crime.
Personally, I don't think that that case can really be made, and it also illustrates how ultimately useless 'hate crime' laws are.

But, agian, the germans have already had to deal with the nazis once before, I'd say that, at the very least, its pretty understandable why they'd wonk any proto-nazis with a hammer these days.


Hatred is not against the law.

In Europe it is, and in America it is also becomming. Hate, when coupled with violent crime, in the US is illegal. And mere hate speech, in europe, is completely illegal. This has the effect of many racist rock groups, for example, going underground to have their concerts. These concerts are planned and executed in the utmost secrecy, and the police actively seek to find out when these music concerts are happening and to try to break them up and arrest the band-members. In Europe, hate, once expressed anyway, is illegal.

I just don't understand what is special about Jews that they need to be protected from hatred

Personally, I'd say that its because they are the one race that practically everyone in the planet has tried to destroy, rather consistently. Yes, the Armenians suffered persecution under the turks, and the greeks and turks commited acts of ethnic cleansing against each other, etc etc. But it seems like everyone has tried to destroy the jews, largely because no matter where they go they are a 'strange and foreign' religious minority. So the russians even had a word for 'attacking, raiding, raping and burning jew villages'; 'pogrom'. And the nazis literally rounded up all the jews they coudl find and gassed them as a whole. So of course, with that kind of history, the jews in particular need special protections, certainly in europe anyway.
They get special protections because they have been especially singled out and hunted.
Also, these laws, a large part of them is anti-nazism. As such, they protect the german people's against the nazis, who are still active, after all these years, but underground.

Why does GW Bush and Dick Cheney , both Protestant from Southern and Western states, have as many as seven men of Jewish faith determining policy in the White House?

Well, thats off topic. But hey, you're right, there are jews in the white house. That must mean that the jews are trying to take over the world. We shoudl put those evil jooos into camps and kill all of them.


You apparently didn't read my previous post where I admit to being half Jewish and married to a Jewish girl.

And what does your wife and the jewish half of your family think when you question the loyalty of people to their nation merely because they are jewish? What does it matter that you are half jewish or married to a jewess anyway? There've even been jews who joined the KKK.


KhieuSamphan
This is unfortunate because a genuine attempt to elucidate futher upon events of WWII that, with regard to Jewish extermiation, utilises material some may find unpalatable will be immediately dismissed by a cacophany of what seem to be fairly entrenched beliefs.

As a result, I don't think we will ever get to know the full truth.

This is entirely untrue. The truth is, the german government moved jews into slave camps, worked most of them literally and purposefully to death, and then started exterminating them en mass. Thats the holocaust, thats the truth, thats what the holocaust deniers want to have everyone forget.



posted on Feb, 24 2006 @ 09:45 AM
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Break out a dictionary and couple Zionist and Plague. Pretty simple aye!. I resent any implication of Jew hating which is seemingly all too convienent when someone speaks out against any Jew. Please understand that you as an American , Canadian or European under the age of fifty have had virtually all your news [tv, print] filtered through Zionist means. This has made us all ultra sensitive to all Jewish matters. I choose to question that overt empathy and like I've stated before nobody gets a free pass from me. Please also understand if a similar cabal steming from some other race or creed were doing the same twisted things to our freedoms and childrens futures I would be questioning them too. I've always been the kind of person to peer behind the curtain, more interested in the backdrop than the intended presentation. It can get you into trouble from time to time, but I'm too old now to worry about what anyone really thinks of me. I only seek the truth.



posted on Feb, 24 2006 @ 09:53 AM
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Originally posted by YIAWETA

I only seek the truth.



Good - a good goal. Here we go....




Originally posted by YIAWETA

99% of Jews are not Zionist.



99 % ??

Interesting....

Could you please provide a serious source for your 99 % claim?

Maybe a statistic / diagram per continent (state) or else?

And still, my question what you think the 'Zionist plague' is, is not answered by you

It needs to be explained by you - since you are talking about a "Zionist plague" here on the ATS-boards.

So - I am waiting....

[edit on 24-2-2006 by Riwka]



posted on Feb, 24 2006 @ 10:48 AM
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To Yiaweta:

Do you really want the truth or do you just follow the beasts' bleatings?

During the middle/dark ages, the jews in Europe were descendents and byproducts of Roman slavery. Some of them who were freed after the mandatory 10 year rule stayed behind and continue in their religion. However they were not allowed to own lands, thus in order to survive, banking was forced onto them thru the neccessity of daily living.

Very often, we hear charges of them dealing in usury, lending at rates as high as 60% per annum!! But the truth was - they were only instruments of monarchs and religious leaders who needed financing for their costly overseas conquest adventures, be it the crusades or to satisfy a wrong from a fellow monarch or grand churches.

These ruling leaders of that era made laws, severly limiting the freedom of jews to ghettos and charged exhorbitant taxes for their protection unlike any other communities. On one hand, the monarchs borrows from the jews, but on the other hand, they demand high taxes - thus effectively, the rulers had free money for their delusions of granduer under the guise of legality.

So how can the jews afford to pay? They had no choice other than to pass on the taxes as interest rates to the borrower. Most borrowers were serfs or freedmen merchants who at that era, knows not much of the economy but only blind loyalty to the rulers. Those who cant pay back due to bad harvests, instigated riots to burn down the ghettos and the rulers usually turn a blind eye, for they would not need to pay back the loans, instead usually raise taxes for the jews.

What else could the jews do? As usual, suffer in silence, these hardy men who saved money alot and dont spend much, their place of worship were mere hovels compared to church castles. For centuries, they had lived peacefully and submissively in this manner, no way anyone of us would want to suffer like them.

And now, in this present century, once again, the jews are blame for all ills - and even ridiculous nonsense such as controlling the media?????!!!! This is a century where most modern societies base leadership on merit. Anyone who is sufficiently capable or intelligent enough is allowed leadership in the arena of business and govts.

Should blacks be good at music, are we going to charge them as controlling the music scene? Should chinese be good at making cheap T-shirts, are we going to charge them as controlling the T-shirt market? Should americans be good at computer gaming industry, are we going to charge them as controlling the game industry - deciding what is and what is not fit to be sold?

Is Mobile-Exxon headed by jews? Is Bill Gates a Jew? Is the Bundesbank in germany run by jews? Are the japanese, jews in disguise for their economic achievement?

Most certainly NOT! Although the jews are an intelligent lot, so too are the rest of the world. There is enough for a mix in races as to leadership in the corporate and govt world, more so in US, a country created by migrants from all over the oppressed world in the past, where the opportunity to excel based on merit is much sought after and envied by the world.

As we evolved, we realized the past errors of our ancestors that we are all the same race - human race. We may look different or act different, but we are human beings after all.

Point is - no single race controls anything. Not even the arabs with their oil. Other countries have oil deposits too. Lets stop blaming the jews but open our minds to wider concepts, for we are not beasts or ignorant folks living in an unenlightened era.



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