Should Holocaust denial really be a crime?, page 2
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reply posted on 22-2-2006 @ 03:46 PM by Off_The_Street
nygdan says:

The problem here is two-fold. The first is really that these guys aren't researchers, they're racists spreading racist trash and lies and nazi propaganda and pretending that its historical research. Their lies are complete bunkum. Thats the problem with the researchers in particular.


So what? You could make exactly the same argument for the "chem-a-zoids"! Are you saying that believing in "chem-trails" -- just because it's stupid -- should result in going to jail? I don't!

"The problem with the idea of holocaust denial is that its nazism, and nazism is illegal in many places in europe. Thats really the big basis for holocaust denial being a crime, that its not just evil racist lies, but that its nazism, and the last time the nazis were around, they tried to destroy the state, so of course the state has made nazism illegal."

The Nazis did not destroy the state, they glorified it. And as repugnant as nazi-ism (or "national socialism" or whatever you want to call it) might be, it's certainly no worse that the perverted philosophies pushed by Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, or Idi Amin. Nor is it (in my never-humble opinion) worse than the perversions of Islam practiced by the former rulers of Afghanistan and the present ones of Iran.

Yet those pseudo-philosophies, every bit as degrading and damaging to humanity and liberty as the crapola which Adolf Hitler pushed aren't illegal -- nor should they be.

In a free society, people should be free to believe whatever they choose and free to try to share their ideas with anyone, as long as they respect the property and freedom of others to do the same.

Murdering millions of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, mentally retarded people, etc. (which I have no doubt the Nazis did) should be illegal, and those Nazis who were hanged got off a lot easier than they would've if I'd been running the show.

But being a Nazi, as disgusting as you or I might think it is, should not be illegal.


reply posted on 22-2-2006 @ 04:05 PM by Nygdan
Originally posted by LoganCale
Nygdan: Being racist is not a crime.

Difficult to say. In europe, there are hate crime laws. Even in the US, there are hate crime laws, but they usually modify an existing charge on a violent crime.


Whether they're a researcher or a racist fool is not important, the point is that they are free to say whatever they want and that nothing should stop them from saying that.

In the US, sure. Not Europe. Euros don't have the same constitutional protections. In America, the Nazi Party is perfectly legal. In Europe, its illegal. Thats the basis of the difference, that and the hate crime laws. If its illegal to be a nazi, and illegal to spread 'hate', then I can see how holocaust denial could be illegal. The real question here is, should Hate be illegal, and should membership in the Nazi part be illegal (in those places that it is)? Because the issue of holocaust denial, its firmly entangled with nazism and hate-crimes.

ground zero
what if they do the opposite and make it sound worse than it was I.E. 10 Million got killed, how would you react to that?

This is irrelevant. Holocaust denial is a crime in these countries based on the illegalism of hate crimes and nazism. What you are talking about has nothign to do with hate crimes and nazism.

benevolent heretic
But it's a clear cut case of legislating Political Correctness and replacing the right to Free Speech.

I can see that for the hate crime aspect, but not the nazism aspect. In the US, the Communist party was illegal for a while. The rational wasn't simply that commies are scum, but that the party advocates the overthrow of the government and the secret planning of a class war. In germany and austria, its fair to see why the nazi party is illegal, because the nazi party illegally destroyed the state and established a dictatorship.
Notice, however, that nationalism isn't illegal, and socialism isn't illegal, just outright nazism.
And, again, with holocaust denial, you aren't just talking about some unpopular idea that some people have erroneously gotten into their heads for god knows what reason. These guys know that the holocaust occured, and they're effing glad about it. They're not presenting research, they're presenting nazi-racist propaganda. Perhaps, instead of what I mentioned above, the question should be "Shoudl evil racist propaganda be illegal".

snooker1
I don't deny the Holocaust, I just wonder why it only seems to represent the attrosities inflicked on the Jews.

You'd have to ask whoever is representing it at the moment. I've never been taught that the holocaust only involved jews. It invovled homosexuals, jews, gypsyies, the infirm, the mentally deficient, masons, communists, etc etc. The jews suffered the highest numbers of loss as a group. Also, the focus on the association with the jews is because the Nazis focused on the jews. Other groups, like the gypsies, suffered far lower numbers, but were almost completely wiped out by the act. As such, there aren't very many of them to organize efforts to spread knowledge of their being attacked.
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