There are only a handful countries in the world where holocaust denial and/or diminishment are against the law. Austria and Germany have already been mentioned, the others are Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Israel, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Slovakia and Switzerland.

If one wants to deny the holocaust they are perfectly free to do so. Just not in those particular countries.

Should holocaust denial be a crime? I'd say no, holocaust deniers are scum but this look's pretty bad for the Jewish community and just feeds ridiculous conspiracies. That's my opinion. Revisionist history is one thing, to deny genocide to make someone feel bad is another.


[edit on 21-2-2006 by Nakash]

If we're going to start locking people up for being morons there are a hell of a lot more worthy candidates than some b-list historian.

I can think of at least 3 current cabinet ministers who would be first on my idiot list.

Originally posted by Nakash
I'd say no, holocaust deniers are scum but this look's pretty bad for the Jewish community and just feeds ridiculous conspiracies.

Maybe it's one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't things.

Some say that it's a Jewish conspiracy that holocaust denial is illegal in certain countries. And according to most Holocaust deniers (not all), the Holocaust is a Jewish conspiracy.

I'm glad I'm not Jewish, because man, these guys just can't win.

I don't deny the Holocaust, I just wonder why it only seems to represent the attrosities inflicked on the Jews. Didn't the Nazis also exterminate the infirm as well as the physically and mentally disabled.
What I want to know is how many civilian casualties did Allied Forces inflick on the Germans. We did not always bomb just military targets, and there was nothing like the precision guided bombs we have now. Some cities like Dresden were fire-bombed and almost totally destoyed. Do we not need to. Why do we not hear about this. Just because we won the war and therefore got to write the history books

There we atrocities on both sides.

Nazi-ism has nothing to do with denying the Holocaust, at least in the American Neo-Nazi sense - They are actually proud of the slaughter of the Jews.

Proving that it didn't happen would be akin to proving that Christ didn't exist to the Christians. If successful, it would destroy their movement.

Actually I disagree with that. The no holocaust conspiracy is probably a good recruiting point, like ,imagine "Poor Hitler, he never stole even a penny from anybody and treated everyone so nice, and the evil Jewish conspiracy killed him for preventing a stab in the back, etc.,etc." It's their best recruiting tool, which is why it shouldn't be a crime, because if it is, their bogus conspiracy would sound feasible to some of the weak minded people. If it's legal, they will just sound like those windbag Imams in London everyone laughs at while the cops note down for possible people to deport.

Personally,I dont feel it should be against the law in the US.As it was pointed out,Germany/Austria/Poland ect.yes.(for obvious reasons)

Would'nt this be something to the effect if all of a sudden there was some movement here in the U.S.A to say that there were no black slaves?

Think about it.

It's easy to allow free thought we agree with. If we start outlawing opinions we disagree with, no matter how far-fetched, we've started down the path of destruction. You've just created a martyr of that opinion. We all know where this can lead depending on who is in power at any point in time.

I always get scared when I hear things labled as "hate-speak" and then used as justification for censorship. Hate is a subjective term based upon who is in power.

i reckon it should be a crime because it means you are denying somit that has been proven meening you are not totally against it

Denying the Holocaust ever happened, or that the numbers were exaggerated for whatever reason (usually to enrich Israel) is a hallmark of the anti-jewish movements almost exclusively. You will notice I said almost exclusively, there certainly is legitimate research into the Holocaust being done all over the academic world. But all too often revising the history of the Holocaust is merely the prelude to an attack on the Jews.

The suppression of free speech is a very sensitive topic, especially in a format such as this one with so many differing opinions, and ideas. This is one time, and about the only time, I come down on the side of suppression. Mostly because of the intent on the part of deniers.

For a much deeper understanding of the deniers and their ways read any of the books and articles by Deborah Lipstach, she is one of the leading experts on the Holocaust Deniers.

Originally posted by maddale
i reckon it should be a crime because it means you are denying somit that has been proven meening you are not totally against it

No, it should not be a crime. No thought or speech should be a crime. Endorsing the holocaust, while sick and disgusting, should not be a crime. Or are we only allowed to follow certain lines of thought? Which ones? Who decides what kind of things we can think and say?

Well, like I said throwing the scum in jail might be great at first sight, but your just lending feasability to their conspiracy. I don't remember Iran and the Gulf states denieng the holocaust before this controversy (now it sounds feasable to some).

People should be free to think, to say whatever they want! That is what democracy and freedom of speech gives to us all. Even the most stupid or uncoherent tought has a right to exist.

When we start reducing someone's freedom we are reducing our on freedom.


Peace
Crutas

The fact that two countries have deemed it illegal to question the validity of a supposed world event should send up a GIANT red flag. I firmly believe that what you and I {citizens of the western world} have been taught or told to be history is all skewed and pasturized. There were millions killed by the nazi's, but the number of Jews reported killed was highly exagerated. European Zionists wanted to turn as much empathy as they could toward to Jewish plight and their need for a homeland. The rapid post war facillitating of the Nation of Israel in 1948 probably would have been more difficult without this supposed horror these people endurred. P.S. , don't refer to me as anti-semetic. I'm half jewish and married to a jewish girl.

Is it illegal to deny the bombing of Britain in WWII?

Is it illegal to deny the massacre of inidigenous Indians in the colonization of the Americas?

Of course it shouldn't be illegal to deny the Holocaust. Making it illegal makes it seem suspicious.

How is it criminal to deny that the Holocaust happened? Are you inflicting pain and suffering on people by doing so? I don't get it.

I don't.

nygdan says:

The problem here is two-fold. The first is really that these guys aren't researchers, they're racists spreading racist trash and lies and nazi propaganda and pretending that its historical research. Their lies are complete bunkum. Thats the problem with the researchers in particular.

So what? You could make exactly the same argument for the "chem-a-zoids"! Are you saying that believing in "chem-trails" -- just because it's stupid -- should result in going to jail? I don't!

"The problem with the idea of holocaust denial is that its nazism, and nazism is illegal in many places in europe. Thats really the big basis for holocaust denial being a crime, that its not just evil racist lies, but that its nazism, and the last time the nazis were around, they tried to destroy the state, so of course the state has made nazism illegal."

The Nazis did not destroy the state, they glorified it. And as repugnant as nazi-ism (or "national socialism" or whatever you want to call it) might be, it's certainly no worse that the perverted philosophies pushed by Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, or Idi Amin. Nor is it (in my never-humble opinion) worse than the perversions of Islam practiced by the former rulers of Afghanistan and the present ones of Iran.

Yet those pseudo-philosophies, every bit as degrading and damaging to humanity and liberty as the crapola which Adolf Hitler pushed aren't illegal -- nor should they be.

In a free society, people should be free to believe whatever they choose and free to try to share their ideas with anyone, as long as they respect the property and freedom of others to do the same.

Murdering millions of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, mentally retarded people, etc. (which I have no doubt the Nazis did) should be illegal, and those Nazis who were hanged got off a lot easier than they would've if I'd been running the show.

But being a Nazi, as disgusting as you or I might think it is, should not be illegal.

Originally posted by LoganCale
Nygdan: Being racist is not a crime.

Difficult to say. In europe, there are hate crime laws. Even in the US, there are hate crime laws, but they usually modify an existing charge on a violent crime.

Whether they're a researcher or a racist fool is not important, the point is that they are free to say whatever they want and that nothing should stop them from saying that.

In the US, sure. Not Europe. Euros don't have the same constitutional protections. In America, the Nazi Party is perfectly legal. In Europe, its illegal. Thats the basis of the difference, that and the hate crime laws. If its illegal to be a nazi, and illegal to spread 'hate', then I can see how holocaust denial could be illegal. The real question here is, should Hate be illegal, and should membership in the Nazi part be illegal (in those places that it is)? Because the issue of holocaust denial, its firmly entangled with nazism and hate-crimes.

ground zero
what if they do the opposite and make it sound worse than it was I.E. 10 Million got killed, how would you react to that?

This is irrelevant. Holocaust denial is a crime in these countries based on the illegalism of hate crimes and nazism. What you are talking about has nothign to do with hate crimes and nazism.

benevolent heretic
But it's a clear cut case of legislating Political Correctness and replacing the right to Free Speech.

I can see that for the hate crime aspect, but not the nazism aspect. In the US, the Communist party was illegal for a while. The rational wasn't simply that commies are scum, but that the party advocates the overthrow of the government and the secret planning of a class war. In germany and austria, its fair to see why the nazi party is illegal, because the nazi party illegally destroyed the state and established a dictatorship.
Notice, however, that nationalism isn't illegal, and socialism isn't illegal, just outright nazism.
And, again, with holocaust denial, you aren't just talking about some unpopular idea that some people have erroneously gotten into their heads for god knows what reason. These guys know that the holocaust occured, and they're effing glad about it. They're not presenting research, they're presenting nazi-racist propaganda. Perhaps, instead of what I mentioned above, the question should be "Shoudl evil racist propaganda be illegal".

snooker1
I don't deny the Holocaust, I just wonder why it only seems to represent the attrosities inflicked on the Jews.

You'd have to ask whoever is representing it at the moment. I've never been taught that the holocaust only involved jews. It invovled homosexuals, jews, gypsyies, the infirm, the mentally deficient, masons, communists, etc etc. The jews suffered the highest numbers of loss as a group. Also, the focus on the association with the jews is because the Nazis focused on the jews. Other groups, like the gypsies, suffered far lower numbers, but were almost completely wiped out by the act. As such, there aren't very many of them to organize efforts to spread knowledge of their being attacked.

Originally posted by chiS2000
Proving that it didn't happen would be akin to proving that Christ didn't exist to the Christians. If successful, it would destroy their movement.

Logically, sure. But what about that movement is logical? Nothing. Its an abstractist-irrationalist movement anyway. The german nazis tried to exterminate the jews in their borders. They killed many. The punks that call themselves nazis in the US will say that the holocaust didn't happen, because they don't care if it did, and they are sick of 'whiney jews'. That and the fact that the american nazi-skinheads are ignorant morons.

Originally posted by Nygdan
These guys know that the holocaust occured, and they're effing glad about it.

That's terrible, I agree. It's low, slimy behavior. Being a lying jerk should not be illegal, though. I don't understand the justification of making it against the law. It sucks, yeah, but I don't agree with legislating thought or speech.

They're not presenting research, they're presenting nazi-racist propaganda. Perhaps, instead of what I mentioned above, the question should be "Shoudl evil racist propaganda be illegal".

My answer would be the same. No, it shouldn't be illegal. There's propaganda of all sorts in this world. Picking out one form and making it illegal is just not right as far as I'm concerned.

Nygdan I would love for you to address these points (if you want):

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Why would it be any different than denying 9/11 was committed by terrorists or denying God exists or denying the Crusades?
...
It's not against the law to deny God. It's not against the law to deny slavery.

This law reminds me of 'blanket laws', which I hate. They make an innocent action against the law in hopes of suppressing an actual crime.
...
It's like suppressing the cartoon maker so as not to "offend" the radical, angry criminal who's just waiting to be incited to burn and kill.