Originally posted by YIAWETA
Break out a dictionary and couple Zionist and Plague. Pretty simple aye!. I resent any implication of Jew hating which is seemingly all too convienent when someone speaks out against any Jew.

I did. That's where I got the Jewish people who support Israel are an infectious disease.

I offered you two chances to clarify your statement. There are two other members who are asking you for clarification. Avoiding answering our question and deflecting the discussion to attempt to accuse us of accusing you of anti-semitism is kind of laughable.

Once again, please tell us what your definition of a Zionist plague is. And don't bother trying to accuse me of accusing you of anything again because I don't need a dictionary to define 'Deflection' or 'Avoidance'.



edit for poor grammar




[edit on 24-2-2006 by Duzey]

Zionist controlled media? By implication, you are saying we are all brainwashed simpletons who cannot make up our own minds. Huh...hate to burst your bubble and all, but I made up my mind about the Holocaust by listening to first hand accounts of the horrors from survivors of the camps.

My utter and complete disdain for the deniers leads me to endorse draconian methods of sensure that I might not endorse in different circumstances. I freely admit this. I won't step away from it either, but I do admit the bias.

In regards to the Holocaust, and research and debate. There is no "other side" of the issue. Well meaning people are mislead into tolerating these odius hateful little nightmares in a desire to be fair, and not allow for a fair hearing on the subject. You are playing right into their hands by doing so. They care nothing for a debate, or fair research...it is only a means by which they can continue spewing their hate, only this time with a vanier of academic respectability. This is why so many of the leading experts on Holocaust Denial will not even appear on the same stage with them. This should tell you something, should it not?

Originally posted by YIAWETA
Break out a dictionary and couple Zionist and Plague. Pretty simple aye!. I resent any implication of Jew hating

And I suspect most jews resent the implication that, because a man is jewish, that he must be an evil traitor to his country, like you claim in your 'look at all the joos in the white house' bit.

Truth needs to laws to support it. Throughout history, only lies and liars have resorted to the courts to enforce adherence to dogma. As it was in Galileo's time, laws that forbid asking questions protect not the truth, but vested interests.

Nobody jails people who claim to have seen bigfoot. Nobody arrests people who think Elvis is still alive. Only in this one area is the mere asking of a question or the performance of a laboratory test grounds for imprisonment for a crime deemed so evil that even the truth is not allowable as a defense.

History is full of atrocities. And for all those atrocities save one, the victims themselves cry out for more examination, more study, more research. Only in this one area do the victims work so hard to punish anyone who wishes to take a closer look. We are all asked to buy the used car of Holocaust politics without being allowed to check out just what kind of engine is under that hood.

Like most Americans, I grew up believing the orthodox accounts of the history of WW2. But more than anything else, it is the manner in which historians, chemists, and researchers are punished for asking a question that has caused me to suspect some dark and terrible secret is being hidden from the general public, and in an age where we were all lied to about Iraq's mythical weapons of mass destruction, the idea that we can be lied to on such a grand and horrific scale has become mainstream.

How many Jews died under Hitler in WWII?

Who cares anymore?

America did its best to liberate the holocaust survivors, and we are supposed to feel guiilty?

Not me, not one bit.

Nothing Hitler did justifies what Israel is doing today in the name of the Jews.

Then why are there laws suppressing discussion and doubt?........And yes we are all just a group of poorly informed dolts who want so desparately to believe what we hear on the nightly news or read in the NY Times. I repeat ......It is all filtered crap.

9/11
The Kennedy Assasination all 3
Iran -Contra
The Challenger Explosion
The USS Cole

Which OFFICIAL explanation do you still beleive?

I really wish I was wrong on this one people...really!

Out of 192 countries in the world (including the Vatican), there are exactly 11 countries who have laws against Holocaust denial. As I have said before, there is nothing stopping anyone from questioning official accounts as long as they don't do it in the countries where it is illegal.

Quite frankly, if this was some grand 'Jewish Conspiracy' they are doing a poor job and obviously don't have the all-encompasing power attributed to them. If they did, Holocaust denial would be illegal in more than the whopping number of 6% of the countries in the world, half of which suffered through Nazi occupation.

So YIAWETA,

Can I take your refusal to answer my question to mean that I have indeed found your definition through my use of the dictionary?

That's one of the most annoying things about me (out of many) - my refusal to let people slither out of answering my questions when they have brought the topic up themselves.

And PS - while you may feel like a poorly informed dolt, don't ever presume to speak for me. I'm capable of thinking and speaking for myself.


edited because I spell poorly


[edit on 24-2-2006 by Duzey]

Equating Holocaust Denial with believing in Bigfoot? Well done, you have just managed to deminish the Holocaust to the cover of a supermarket tabloid.

Who cares how many Jews and others died? I care. As long as I live and breathe, I'll care. With such weapons as I have at my disposal, I'll fight the deniers.

This is probably pointless, tilting at windmills if you will, but here goes...Deniers are not historians...they are haters using the cover of academia to promulgate their hate. There is nothing legitimate about their so-called questions. Always, they'll smirk and say, "oh since that little fact was wrong, then it all must be wrong. Therefore, the Holocaust never happened". Oh, then they'll throw out a so called fact to bolster their false argument, usually accompanied by bad science.

YIAWETA. We want desperately to believe the Holocaust happened, and that many millions were murdered? Actually, I desperately want to believe quite the opposite. But this "poorly informed dolt" realizes the awful reality of the Holocaust throughout Europe and the Soviet Union.

There is no "other side" of the story. 10 million plus people, including 6 million Jews, were slaughtered by state sanctioned murder. Sorry, no debate allowed.

No debate???????....That sounds pretty fascist to me and quite Zionist. Which one fits you best?

Facist maybe, but Zionist? I'd ask for an explanation but you would just ignore that as well.

I'm still waiting for your explanation of the Zionist plague comment.

There is no "other side" of the story. 10 million plus people, including 6 million Jews, were slaughtered by state sanctioned murder. Sorry, no debate allowed.

If there were nothing to hide debate would be encoraged.

The truth does not need to hide behind laws.




And what does it all mean today?

It should mean that people should not be killed for their religion.

Not that Jews are the great victims of the world.

Every Jew alive today should THANK the rest of the world for stopping Hitler, not demand special status.

Again, there are only 11 countries where there are laws about this, half of which were occupied by the Germans during WW2. Unless you happen to live in one of those countries or travel through them while actively denying the Holocaust while you are there, these laws do not affect you.

But yeah, it's some big worldwide Jewish conspiracy to keep us all from talking about it.

You are the one who seems to think there is something to hide, so what is it. Is it a gigantic hoax perpatrated on the world by the evil Zionists? Or is it merely to extort money from Germany to enrich the evil Zionists? Ones as stupid as the next. Or maybe all the Jews who were supposedly killed all moved to the United States? All these arguments and more have been used to deny the Holocaust. Hey, maybe you'll be original and come up with a new one.

YIAWETA. How do you debate a subject that is undebatable. The Holocaust in all its horror occured.

I've gone back through this thread, and I've noticed that people are mistakinly attributing Holocaust Denial with ignorance. IMHO, my thoughts are these: It isn't ignorance. These people know the Holocaust happened, and don't care. They are pushing an agenda of hate, when has hatred ever needed knowledge?

I've also realized that I am never going to win this debate. So bloody, yet unbowed I will withdraw to fight this fight another day. Tommorrow, more than likely, 'cause us nightowls need to go to bed now.

My spelling really does suck, but I'm too tired to go back and fix it. Nighty-night..

Thanks Arch Angel for saying what I stated from the very beginning. The fact that governments have inacted laws to squash debate over any world event reeks of coverup. Those who can't see that are more than just blind.

I 'll be moving on now here at ATS to more vital issues like the glorious aspects of Top Ramen soup.

Yet again, I will point out that if there is some big cover-up, it is being really poorly executed. Nothing is stopping anyone who doesn't live in one of those 11 countries from questioning the numbers from the Holocaust.

How is something being hidden/covered up when 94% of the world can discuss this until their faces turn blue?

Originally posted by Duzey
Yet again, I will point out that if there is some big cover-up, it is being really poorly executed. Nothing is stopping anyone who doesn't live in one of those 11 countries from questioning the numbers from the Holocaust.

How is something being hidden/covered up when 94% of the world can discuss this until their faces turn blue?

The the thread asks the question of should denial be a crime.

You seem to think it should be.

Thoughts as crimes.

Yet I'm sure you enjoyed the Danish cartoons.....

Actually, I'm not sure if I agree with these kinds of laws and nowhere have I said I do. I do, however, understand why in some countries they might feel the need to enact such laws. I'm the great undecided and I've got to say, this thread certainly isn't making things easier.

Those that support Holocaust Denial laws often use the argument that Holocaust revisionism is done out of a dislike for Jews not from any desire for the truth. Their research is then used to further and spread their dislike for Jews.

That's why I'm just a little disturbed, to say the least, about some of the comments that have been made in this thread. I support freedom of speech but I also support the responsible use of such.

I thought the Danish cartoons were tacky and in very poor taste. I also think they had the right to publish them if they wanted.

Zionism is the movement for a Homeland for the Jews. I am a Zionist. I am proud to be a Zionist. Got a problem with it? This isn't a slap as some would like it to sound.
I see quite a bit of false information, propaganda, being tossed about on this board all day long by people who feel their position isn't strong enough to be protected by the truth, so they lie. At least, someone lies and others have taken it as their own truth because either they were fed it long enough, or because it is what they prefer to believe because of their own wishes.

Hitler proved what a lie told over and over can do, and he made no bones about it. This is the evil that the law is trying to prevent, and the reason it is necessary is quite obvious to me, judging by some of the stuff I read around here. It is seldom that a denier runs through our community, but they do speak up from time to time. When liars speak, and speak long enough, people start believing the mantra.





[edit on 25-2-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

Seagull says:

"I do understand the points you are making, truely I do. And were it not for the sheer amount of unaudulterated hatred involved in this issue I would wholeheartedly agree with all of you."

The "sheer amount of unaudulterated hatred involved " sounds to me like you want outlaw something based not on an absolute, but how much it offends.

I call that the "little bit pregnant" argument, and, paraphrased, it goes something like this:

I don't like Seagull" legal.
I hate Seagull" legal.
I really hate Seagull" legal.
I really, REALLY hate Seagull" legal.
I really, REALLY REALLY hate Seagull" ILLEGAL!

No. That's not the way it's supposed to work. Something is either legal or illegal. Check it out:

I don't like Seagull" legal.
I really, REALLY REALLY hate Seagull" legal.
Punches Seagull ILLEGAL!
Steals Seagull's Bicycle ILLEGAL!
Defrauds Seagull ILLEGAL!
Trespasses on Seagull's property ILLEGAL!
Kills Seagull ILLEGAL!

This is not rocket science.