I think it's much higher than that.

The obvious but unstated converse of this is that 94% of Muslims in the UK think the 7/7 bombings were unjustified, and 99% think Western society ought not to be brought down with violence.

In other words, the fanatics constitute a small minority.

Still, I have to admit I am surprised by the 6% figure.

Also, and this is important, in many Arab countries if a person speaks out against these acts, sooner rather than later the extremist elements will come knocking at the door, ready to carve them up.

When our ancestors were serfs, monarchs and despots used the climate of fear to control us. But after 4000 years of civilisation, with great minds contributing to science, thru gradual education, we realized there was nothing to fear but fear itself.

Fear is an awesome to weld, better than a sword, for each man fears for his life, if not for others around him as well. The opposite of fear is to be brave. Throughout mankind's history, there were never lack of brave men, who knew they face death inorder that they may bring a better life to their love ones, if not for mankind.

The french, russian, american, chinese revolutions showed the way, led by intelligent and educated people to ease the suffering of their fellow men. Most spectacular of all was India's Ghandi, who challenge the might of an empire that ruled half the earth thru non-violence and succeeded.

Religion is an awesome tool to use to create the climate of fear - for who dont fear an unknown power? Who do not look upon the skies and dont believe there is a higher being than man who operates the wonders of nature and destiny? And who wont fear the man who claims to speak on behalf of such being, thru his acts of charity, benevolence, calmness and seemingly 'wisdom' to qoute ancient text by heart? More so by those who could hardly understand alphabets, let alone the complexity of analytical science?

But as we progressed into the 21st century, we realized there is more to nature than just the hand of a mighty being in play. Amongst moslems today, we have intellectuals who are capable of rational and analytical thoughts. Yet, why are they not doing anything? The answer lies in the ingrained fear instilled over centuries by despots who twisted and corrupted a peaceful religion, used by the largely uneducated rural clerical louts to keep themselves in power,denying and suppressing rational analytical thinking. Anyone who dares voice out is held out as a heretic and sentenced with a fatwa for immediate punishment of the barbaric kind.

In the past, most of our heros know that they would die either way, as serf or fighting it out not to be serfs. Their back was truly against the wall, and in a way made revolution easier. Today, thanks to civilisation, outside of Middle East, moslems can protest freely without fear. However, the power of the M.E despots travelled overseas as well, and created the climate fear in overseas moslems communities.

The thing is, why should intellectual moslems be held hostages or made cowards by the rural clerical louts here in civilise lands where rule of law and rationality is supreme? Surely the intellectuals will NEVER identify with the moron rioters and their actions we saw the past days? And these morons are to be feared???!!!

Its time the moslems intellectuals do more than just mouth platitudes, unless they are truly cowered by the irrational morons who rule over them. Fear is understandable, but the choice of continued fear and rule of irrationality instead of intellectualism for them and their generations to come is something they must confront to destroy the despots, either by violence or non-violence for their cruel ways to their fellows brothers kept in the chains of fear and denial of mental progress in the 21st century.

Failing which, they themselves may fail to exists as a community as mankind learns to share this world together in peace with sensible rule of secular laws that ensures human rights are respected, and not with heads or body parts decapitated. Many on this planet will not stand idly by for such tragedies to their own kind any longer, anymore.

During WWII, Italians supported the tyranical dulce, but when Normandy landings occured, knowing full well the entire world's anger at the dulce for his support of Hitler, they figured that to fight against the world, they will lose 100%. But to overthrow the facist dulce with his german SS teams, they at least will have a 50% to win and make things right for the next generation of italians. They chosed right. Will we see something similar with moslem intellectuals today or soon?

Originally posted by xmotex

The obvious but unstated converse of this is that 94% of Muslims in the UK think the 7/7 bombings were unjustified, and 99% think Western society ought not to be brought down with violence.

In other words, the fanatics constitute a small minority.

Still, I have to admit I am surprised by the 6% figure.

Thank you, xmotex, for making my point clearer.

This is exactly what I'm trying to put forth. The media keeps drumming these figures but rarely, if not never, show the flip-side of it.

Eventually even the moderates will tire of stating their position. I mean, what's the point? All that we say falls on deaf ears.

A numbers question to consider.

When an extremist fraction is:

1) 10^-10
2) 10^-7
3) 10^-5
4) 10^-3
5) 10^-2

When does it get very dangerous? In all cases the fraction per person
is still small.

It just occurred to me, how many Americans protest American terrorism? Almost none.

Lots of us protest verbally, but how many of us actually organize and march and stop going to work and paying our taxes and so on? Very few indeed.

Most moderates just want to be left alone to live their life. Being small and inconspicuous is a great way to accomplish that goal.

As much as i respect and thanks those sane moslems for speaking out, unfortunately it must be said that they are too small a fraction to be heard.

Before one lashes out and blames others that 'no one is listening', try to figure out why they are doing it. Blaming it on the media just dont cut it. Just look at the charge sheet - thousands dead in the hands by those who hijack the moslem religion! And what are those moderates doing? - a couple of guys with websites, a handful marching on the streets, etc, and expect everyone else to be thankful??!! What about the rest? Its a community issue. Wanting a peaceful life just dont cut it and no excuse!

Look at the blacks issue - no violence, those who engages in it were dealt as criminals by both blacks and whites, but thousands took the streets in the 60s nationwide for days to protest against racism, which led to a social change within a short time- great for humanity. There were a couple more demostrations in the 90s, but it was only confined to individual cities and the only criminals were looters, not suicide bombers or terrorism that murder women and children.

Look at the feminism issue - same thing, and led to social change, women being able to vote and a total realization that sex had nothing to do with competency and ability.

Look further back - to the more violent days of theological awareness in our ancient past of the 15th century, that finally led to peaceful co-existance of the christian faith in our times.

Point is - EVERYONE would love to live peacefully and quietly, but when an entire community is maligned and misused by a group of fanatics, if the majority still remain silent, it would only be interpretated by both the fanatics and society as agreement that the fanatics are acting FULLY on behalf of the community. Riots and destruction, calls for Death to an entire nation or the rest of humanity over something as moronic as cartoons is no small issue! Today it's cartoons, tomorrow - would 'death to the west' calls be made if someone looks at a moslem cross eyed?

More needs to be done, but the ball is in the court of the so called 'moderates'. And it best be soon before the fanatics gets more bolder, leading humanity to further death and destruction when we could all live in peace and goodwill if not in harmony.

ok, i knew someone would post something like this.
So i ask you.....what the hell do you expect me to do?

Seriously.....what more do you want????

you have the muslim council of britain coming out against these protests.....you have loads of websites condemning such actions....you have muslim leaders in other parts of the world condemning terrorism.....if you would take the time to speak to ordinary muslims, you would find they dont agree with it either......what the hell do you want?......i am asking in all curiousity......what exactly would satisfy you, in terms of "moderate" muslims coming out and saying they condemn terrorism?????

Do you not think that me (and possibly many other muslims) would love a chance to stand up in front of the world and scream:

"Islam IS peaceful...terrorism has NO part in islam!!!"

But who the hell would give us this chance??

And who would listen.

ATS is a prime example of this...you have a few muslims here, and i have seen them come on and say they dont agree with what is happening, you have people like me, who post links to other muslims who say they dont agree with what is happening.....and STILL....you ask for more proof.

Maybe, you dont really care what moderate muslims think. Maybe, just maybe, you are so caught up with the whole "islam is evil" idea, that no amount of muslims condeming terrorism, will satisfy you.

I plead 'not guilty' to your charges, sir.

I am a nobody, you owe me nothing nor should take any instructions from me. But you owe it to mankind to do something more for your community, in the face of the carnage we see committed in the acts of your religion.

Feel it in your heart as to how the rest of humanity will not be treated as infidels, or as bomb fodder, but respected as human beings with rights and accorded consideration.

Critically analyse how your community can stop such madness at its source, espacially those who take directions like sheep would, from the Middle East. For no one else can, only you know in depth that your religion is a peaceful one and not as the moronic fanatics potrayed it as it is.

Allow secular reason to rule instead of mindless violence of a massive scale.

USSR lost Poland not because it didnt have the power to crush the poles, but because the SOLIDARITY created by the Poles, together with the rest of humanity who backed them, were a force to be reckoned with. Tyrants fear no citizens, they only fear the world when it acts as one. If more of you were to seek what the rest of the world seeks, no despots or 'supreme being spouting quacks' can stand against you.

A drop of water into the ocean is considered insignificant. But that one drop creates ripples that reach far shores. The rest of saner humanity, voices of reason, had held back forces which seek vengence against a community after 911. 6 years now, they await determined actions from the silent majority of your community.

You have voted geek101 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Exasperating, isn't it? We keep on saying we oppose these extremist's actions. We keep trying to show them what us moderates believe. We do all that we can, and we do it without any thoughts of malice or being insulting, with courtesy and respect and what do we get? Not much.

But members such as WyrdeOne, xmotex, xphilesphan and others give me a ray of hope, hope that if we are persistant and patient, infinitely patient, we may eventually build that bridge of understanding. And with that mutual respect and understanding, perhaps we can both solve this scourge. This disease that affects not just us muslims, but everyone in the civilized world.

And I urge all muslims on the boards, please, please be courteous in your responses. Remember when the Bani Quraish insulted Muhammad (S.A.W)? Remember when they fling feces at him, yet he was patient and only regarded them with kindness, respect and courtesy? That was his way. Win them over with kindness, not by torching their buildings.

How far we have strayed.

Beachcoma. I respect you for speaking out against the radicals that are seeking to hijack your religion. However, the perception is that you and the other moderate Muslims are in the minority. Perception is all, as I said on another thread just recently. Not fair perhaps, but there nevertheless.

I for one apologize for some of my more intemperate words, but realize that the concern the direction your religion is taking is very real. Keep talking, maybe more like Geek101 will join you. Hope so.

Originally posted by Beachcoma
You have voted geek101 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Exasperating, isn't it? We keep on saying we oppose these extremist's actions. We keep trying to show them what us moderates believe. We do all that we can, and we do it without any thoughts of malice or being insulting, with courtesy and respect and what do we get? Not much.

thank you Beachcoma.....and you're right, there are some members here (and WyrdeOne stood out in my mind)......who are tolerant and intelligent, and who see that the actions of a few do not portray the thoughts of many more. And i liked your example of the Prophet....its weird that these people who cry out for revenge and violence, and claim they do so because they love the Prophet so much, dont love him enough to follow his example.

I honestly dont know what else we can do. I dont.

seekeroftruth101 wrote: But you owe it to mankind to do something more for your community

lol....and i asked you before (asked everyone here really)....WHAT can i do?
Tell me what i can do, as a mother of 4 children...who doesnt visit the mosque (and even if i did...???)....who has NO influence in politics, or business, or anything really, other than my own family.....WHAT can i do?

Tell me please....i am interested. Maybe i am stupid...maybe i think that coming on forums like this and defending my faith again and again, in the face of hatred and ignorance is enough.....obviously i am wrong....so YOU tell me....what i can do to please you, and to satisfy you, to show you that people like me, in the muslim world are typical of muslim people.

Let me ask you one more thing. When Pat Robertson says stupid insane things.....do we simultaenously see Christians denouncing that?
When we see Priests be convicted of child abuse.....do we also constantly see or hear other priests condemning such heinous activities?

Are you really, therefore, surprised, that when you hear of extremists who claim to be "muslims", you DONT hear the millions of muslims condenming it all?

If you ignore everything else in my post.....please do answer my question to you.....what can i do?

Originally posted by seagull
Beachcoma. I respect you for speaking out against the radicals that are seeking to hijack your religion. However, the perception is that you and the other moderate Muslims are in the minority. Perception is all, as I said on another thread just recently. Not fair perhaps, but there nevertheless.

I for one apologize for some of my more intemperate words, but realize that the concern the direction your religion is taking is very real. Keep talking, maybe more like Geek101 will join you. Hope so.

Seagull....you bring up a very valid point and one that i myself was mulling over today....how muslims are thought of today is a perception that has been brought about by extremists....no doubt.
But this is one of the sites, where i would think, hope, that when evidence is presented to you, evidence that points to the contrary, that you will, perhaps, see that most muslims are against this. That is HAS nothing to do with islam.....it really hasnt. Its so far away from islam that it would be laughable if it wasnt so damn scary.

I have said this before, but i wish that people would stop referring to these extremists as "muslim". Refer to them as what they are....not what they claim to be. What they are, for the most part, are uneducated, blind, violent people. Thats it.
And although i am not usually one to blame the media for the ills befalling the islamic world, i will say this....when did you ever hear the IRA being referred to as "catholic"......when do you hear of the Uganda Lords Resistance Army (think thats right) being referred to as "christian"

Is that because catholics and christians were obvious to the fact that what was being carried out in their name, was not representative of their religions?

The same is true of islam. Unfortunately, the media has not allowed us such benefit, and the constant naming of these people as "muslims" has brought us to a stage where the words are synonomous....islam/terrorist....muslim/extremist.

I can show you in the Quran, where it talks about freedom of speech, the right to follow what you want...i cant show you, however, (because its not there)...the right to kill people for insulting islam, for insulting the Prophet, or God, or drawing pictures, or leaving islam, or anything really.....the Quran does not actually tell people to kill ANYONE, UNLESS they are at war and are fighting people who have started war against them.

Like i said....so far from islam, its not even funny anymore

Muslims are what they claim to be. I suppose they may be called pirates for stealing some of the more radical tenets of Islam. I lay no claim to being an Islamic scholar, rather my ignorance of the religion is manifest, however they, meaning the terrorists, choose to call themselves Muslim, if they called themselves Christian, I would call them such. I mean no offense to you, or others of the Muslim faith. Truely, I don't. I call them what they call themselves, and add the terrorist part myself.

I apologise for not knowing your gender earlier, 101, but it changes nothing for i believe women are equal to men and have never doubted their abilities and capabilities.

Ask me not what i want for i, like any other human being, seek only peace in our times as well as peace for our children, no matter what religion they belong. You have my deepest respect for condemning the actions of the morons for what they did to your religion.

While social change will not happen overnight, if you would share your perceptions with the silent majority, it will lead to a cascading exponential effect of social awareness amongst the more educated moslems whom have to bear the leadership of social change amongst the less opportunitied members of your community.

We are no longer living in the open desert where the nearest neigbouring tribe is thousands of kilometres away. In the proximity of our cities, tolerance is necessary if we are to share our living spaces. More so barbaric acts must never be committed nor ignored by any religion, hijacked or otherwise. The conflageration is too horrid to contemplate.

Alone you cant do much. Nor should you be put at risk for your life is precious even if others do not think so. All i can plead is that you used the power of exponential factor to share your perceptions the rest of what humanity seeks with your friends, and your friends to share them with their friends, and act solidarily to condemn further acts or chants of 'Death to infidels'.

We have brains and are not mindless and senseless wild animals. We can talk instead of resorting to fight and hurts. We have to act now, for patience has its limits....

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
I apologise for not knowing your gender earlier, 101

no problem....

Ask me not what i want for i, like any other human being, seek only peace in our times as well as peace for our children, no matter what religion they belong. You have my deepest respect for condemning the actions of the morons for what they did to your religion.

thank you, and thank you also, for posting such a thoughtful response.

While social change will not happen overnight, if you would share your perceptions with the silent majority, it will lead to a cascading exponential effect of social awareness amongst the more educated moslems...

i hope i can do this, i have started doing little things already, and although i agree it will not happen overnight, i hope it doesnt take too long

More so barbaric acts must never be committed nor ignored by any religion, hijacked or otherwise. The conflageration is too horrid to contemplate.

agree totally

again, thank you for your reponse. I agree with you all the way here.....and i've thought about this, and you're right...the only way to really fight this perception is from person to person....to say things, to write things, to educate people and hope that out of every 10 people you reach, that 4 or 5 will actually listen and take it further.

As you said...patience has its limits and i just hope that we, the majority of muslims, can reclaim our religion, before that patience runs out.

Geek101. No reasonable person can ask you to do more than you can do.
One voice is the beginning of a chorus.