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Africa: the Prison Continent

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posted on Feb, 11 2006 @ 01:52 PM
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Originally posted by eternally_damaged

Isn't the main aspect of capitalism to make a profit Muaddib? I don't think China or Russia have any other motive in mind.


You see, the problem with such a statement is that it tries to blame Capitalism, but is really Capitalism the reason why these countries sell so many weapons to other countries?

Can't countries that are not "Capitalist" make a profit?

Even when Russia and China were declared to the world as being Communist, they were making profits by selling weapons to third world nations.

Capitalism is the economic system by which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned.

Capitalism is based on the principle of individual rights.

That i know of China and Russia have made a profit for a long time, but they didn't give individuals the right to have a free economic system.

Even today we can find that most, if not all, means of production and distribution in China are owned by the state, and the rights of individuals in Russia seems to be truly vanishing once more.

So i ask you. Are such countries really Capitalists, or are they just "using" Capitalism so their regimes stay afloat?

Can you call an economic system "Capitalist" when there is no, or very little consideration to individual rights in such countries?

[edit on 11-2-2006 by Muaddib]




posted on Feb, 11 2006 @ 02:17 PM
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Originally posted by Souljah


ROOTS OF AFRICAN CONFLICTS

  • The Legacy of European Colonialism
    European colonialism had a devastating impact on Africa; the artificial boundaries created by colonial rulers as they ruled and finally left Africa had the effect of bringing together many different ethnic people within a nation that did not reflect, nor have (in such a short period of time) the ability to accommodate or provide for, the cultural and ethnic diversity. The freedom from imperial powers was, and is still, not a smooth transition.


Yes and No... True the Colonialism didn't leave ethem to much room for learning at all, but Colonianism is LONG gonne, and there is plenty pf Wealth in Africa, just check their Totalitarian President that ryde in Bentleys, and have Palaces (not mansions) while their people starve. They ahve become their own people's Colonialists. Mozambique was one of Portugals Colonies, and they have long been goven their Independence, but they won't to hardly anything with the money its sent to them, except for asking for more aid. In fact after giving them back their indepence, they overtrowned the new goverment, started civil war and estroyed the all country. Of course who wnet there to rebuilt ? Exactly...Portugal again... and after we left and let them go back to their FEE Life ...they destoyed it again... vicious circle, because no meeter how mcuh you will teach them or give them the tools to be a Free and Welahty country...they won't.. In fact they're level of racism is so big amongst tribes that everytime a govermnet is elected, a new cicil conflitc starts... so yes Colonialism had a part in it, but it can not be blamed for todays mess.


  • The natural struggle to rebuild is proving difficult
    The natural struggle to rebuild is proving difficult and the transit from colonialism to a so-called modern society is not an easy, short one and it can not be overcome in just few years.


  • Also true, but why isn't it easy ? Becasue they can't seem to agree on anything. Everytime a rebuiltis started so does anew conflict and everything stops, so they can kill eachother, and maybe later go bakc to the rebuilding... alot later...killing is way more important.


    "We must remember that the European agreements that had carved up Africa into states paid little attention to cultural and ethnic boundaries and ethnic groups had little opportunity or need to form political alliances or accommodations under repressive colonial rule."
    Richard H. Robbins, Global Problems and the Culture of Capitalism


    Thats was exactly the point of colonialism. Divide, repress and conquer... but Coloanialism has stopped for decades now, and not much has been donne at all, despite the BILLIONS of dollars of Aid the entire world has sent ...Why is That ? Where did the Aid go ? You can't blame Coloanialism forever... There are plenty of other people and nations who were repressed and recovered slowly but surelly with less tha half of the Aid, Africa has been sent.



  • Unequal International Trade; Comparative Disadvantage
    Colonialism had thus transformed an entire continent. Vast plantations and cash crop-based, or other extractive economies were set up throughout. Even as colonial administrators parted, they left behind supportive elites that, in effect, continued the siphoning of Africa's wealth. Thus has colonialism had a major impact on the economics of the region today. Colonialism in the traditional sense may have ended, but the end results are much the same.


  • No they are not, they are worse, because now you can't blame colonialists anymore, you have to blame their own Govermnets. And thats is alot worse, when you are colonialised by your own leaders.


  • Cold War by Proxy; Supporting and Arming Dictatorships in Africa
    Throughout the Cold War, major powers such as the USA, the Soviet Union and others supported various regimes and dictatorships. Some possibly promising leaders in the early days of the indepence movements throughout the Third World were overthrown.


  • You forgot the UN, who nowadays still support this same people, in fact there are plenty of criminal investigations going on against the UN and their "Peace Workers", tho I sincerely doubt anything will ever be donne.
    Koffi A. is one of the biggest supporters of these Dictators you mentioned.


  • Corporate Interests, Exploitation, Corruption and Other Issues
    Corporate interests and activities in Africa have also contributed to exploitation, conflict and poverty for ordinary people while enriching African and foreign elites. Just an easy acess to vast natural resources and to fuel rebellions with arms sales.
    It is more then obvious, that the ongoing problems in Africa are the result of western imperialism and the legacy of colonialms, which left Africa and the People that live there in total state of Chaos, endless Civil Wars, Poverty, Famine, Hunger and spreading Diseases.

  • So sad and true... but you forgot some details. I wonder if people think of Africa when they are buying their diamonds ?? Valentine's Day is coming and its a big day for diamonds...

    As to deseases, Africa has received more aid in that aspect than probably anoy other place in the wordl, and for some reason, even if they are educated about how deseases are spread, it just doesnt seem to make much of a difference in their mind, because they are very connected to old supersticions.


    And the Western MAINSTREAM Media does practicly Nothing in order to Inform the Public or to increase the awerness for this World problem. Most news can be found on the internet, but other means of mass media are just simply ignoring that.

    That I totally disagree with... Everyone knows very well the horros that are going on in Africa... but people forgte fast.





    At least 3.3 million people, mostly Women, Children and the Elderly, are estimated to have died because of the conflict, most from disease and starvation, and more than 2.25 million people have been driven from their homes, many of them beyond the reach of humanitarian agencies.


    The majority of women and children are victims of civil war crimes, sexual crimes and sex slavery market FOR THEIR OWN LEADERS. The desease and starvation are the aftermath, just in cases they didnt die in the prisioner camps.

    and to resume ... I BASICALLY could agree with your post, but you forgot some very important details, about the African "way of thinking" that many black people do not like to ear, because it hits home.

    It is true that Colonialism and slavery caused many damages, but they are long gonne, and now the African people has enslaved themselves... The leaders look down on their own people, and as soon as they egt in power they are ten times worse to their people than anyone else could be.

    I met some African students, and they said it themselves, the racism amongst balck people is WORSE than the racism between black and white.
    They sad that the darker you are, the dumber you are seen as ... and the lighter you are the more chances you ahve to succed in life,... and this comes from countries who are ruled by Black people only. Of course this thoughts were also inherited from Colonianism and slavery, but if these days anyone trys to correct the mistake, they are not allowed too.

    So yes, Colonialim and Slavery did many damages, but i can't blame them for the present situation, things could have changed by now, but the Leadrers of Africa WANT IT that way, so they assure they are kept in power WITH Power !



    posted on Feb, 11 2006 @ 02:25 PM
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    Capital is dead labor, which, vampire-like, lives only by sucking living labor, and lives the more, the more labor it sucks.

    Words of Mister Karl Marx.

    Find anything Familiar?

    Tell me, who is the Vampire?

    Let me show you what CAPITALISM Does:

    • Of the 100 largest economies in the world, 51 are corporations; only 49 are countries (based on a comparison of corporate sales and country GDPs).

    • The Top 200 corporations' sales are growing at a faster rate than overall global economic activity. Between 1983 and 1999, their combined sales grew from the equivalent of 25.0 percent to 27.5 percent of World GDP.

    • The Top 200 corporations' combined sales are bigger than the combined economies of all countries minus the biggest 10.

    • The Top 200s' combined sales are 18 times the size of the combined annual income of the 1.2 billion people (24 percent of the total world population) living in "severe" poverty.

    • While the sales of the Top 200 are the equivalent of 27.5 percent of world economic activity, they employ only 0.78 percent of the world's workforce.

    • Between 1983 and 1999, the profits of the Top 200 firms grew 362.4 percent, while the number of people they employ grew by only 14.4 percent.

    • U.S. corporations dominate the Top 200, with 82 slots (41 percent of the total). Japanese firms are second, with only 41 slots.

    • Of the US corporations on the list, 44 did not pay the full standard 35 percent federal corporate tax rate during the period 1996-1998. Seven of the firms actually paid less than zero in federal income taxes in 1998 (because of rebates). These include: Texaco, Chevron, PepsiCo, Enron, Worldcom, McKesson and the world's biggest corporation - General Motors.

    • Between 1983 and 1999, the share of total sales of the Top 200 made up by service sector corporations increased from 33.8 percent to 46.7 percent. Gains were particularly evident in financial services and telecommunications sectors, in which most countries have pursued deregulation.

    • Globally, the 20% of the world’s people in the highest-income countries account for 86% of total private consumption expenditures — the poorest 20% a minuscule 1.3%.

    • 20% of the population in the developed nations, consume 86% of the world’s goods.

    • The lives of 1.7 million children will be needlessly lost this year [2000] because world governments have failed to reduce poverty levels.

    • The world’s 497 billionaires in 2001 registered a combined wealth of $1.54 trillion, well over the combined gross national products of all the nations of sub-Saharan Africa ($929.3 billion) or those of the oil-rich regions of the Middle East and North Africa ($1.34 trillion).

    • About 0.13% of the world’s population controlled 25% of the world’s assets in 2004. ž

    • A mere 12 percent of the world’s population uses 85 percent of its water, and these 12 percent do not live in the Third World.

    • Today, across the world, 1.3 billion people live on less than one dollar a day; 3 billion live on under two dollars a day; 1.3 billion have no access to clean water; 3 billion have no access to sanitation; 2 billion have no access to electricity.

    • About 210,000 children each week, or just under 11 million children under five years of age, each year.

    So, what is Capitalism?

    What is Capital?

    What is Profit?

    What is Commodity?

    Capital is money, capital is commodities. By virtue of it being value, it has acquired the occult ability to add value to itself. It brings forth living offspring, or, at the least, lays golden eggs.

    Capitalism only seeks Profit - where there is NO profit, there is no Interest.

    Cosmetics in the United States costs 8 Billion $.
    Basic education for everyone in the world costs 6 Billion $.
    Water and sanitation for everyone in the world costs 9 Billion $.
    Ice cream in Europe costs 11 Billion $.
    Reproductive health for all women in the world costs 12 Billion $.
    Perfumes in Europe and the United States costs 12 Billion $.
    Basic health and nutrition for everyone in the world costs 13 Billion $.
    Pet foods in Europe and the United States costs 17 Billion $.
    Business entertainment in Japan costs 35 Billion $.
    Cigarettes in Europe costs 50 Billion $.
    Alcoholic drinks in Europe costs 105 Billion $.
    Narcotics drugs in the world costs 400 Billion $.
    Military spending in the world costs 780 Billion $.

    Thats the NOBILTY of Capitalism.

    I bet that the Entire World is so Grateful for all of the above mentioned Numbers.




    posted on Feb, 11 2006 @ 02:30 PM
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    I agree with what your saying totally Mauddib, that countries are using capitalism in order to make profit, and the countries involved are not neccesserely capitalist themselves (except for the US, UK...) - which I think you'll find was my original post "this is global capitalism at its worst", I mentioned nothing of the countries themselves being capitalist, just the capitalist game at its worst.

    So thanks I guess Mauddib for strengthening my case!



    posted on Feb, 11 2006 @ 02:37 PM
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    Originally posted by Souljah
    Thats the NOBILTY of Capitalism.

    I bet that the Entire World is so Grateful for all of the above mentioned Numbers.


    Why are people who lived under communism some of the poorest people in the world if it's such a great system?

    Why did people have to stand in bread lines for hours at a time?

    Why were so many people fleeing from East Germany to West Germany but nobody tried to jump the wall in the other direction?

    Why were many people moving from North Korea into South korea but not the other way around?

    It seems to me that Capitalism is the better system and I doubt you could give me real example of a successful communist country in which the people are better off and have more right than th people in their Capitalist counterparts.



    posted on Feb, 11 2006 @ 02:38 PM
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    Very informative post... I just don't see how tany of the above would help Africa. ? And yes, of course Capitalism is Comodities... Its awsome to have comodities... some are more frugal than others, but above all they all feel great. And anyone and everyone who HAS comdities is part of the Capitalims... the evil Capitalism, but we are all part of it, wheather we like it or not.

    Now, are you suggestiong that in order to help Africa, we should give -up our comodities ? Because if so, are you ready to give up yours?

    Would you give up your comodities to help Africa?
    Even better... are the African leaders ready to give up their Bentleys to feed their own people?

    Otherwise, i do not understand what you mean.



    posted on Feb, 12 2006 @ 02:42 AM
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    www.abovetopsecret.com...

    Fun with cross-contamination. I figured since we were talking about africa, here's a good example of African governmental mismanagement. Forty-two tonnes of nutrient rich food from a dog-food company was turned down by Kenya, despite the rampant starvation.

    Last time I checked, food from a can > looking up a cow's ass for scraps.

    Forget capitalism, forget religion. You want to see a government that just doesn't care about it's people, look at Kenya. It took international pressure for them to accept food for starving people, instead of simply skimming monetary aid.

    DE



    posted on Feb, 12 2006 @ 11:50 AM
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    Fun with cross-contamination. I figured since we were talking about africa, here's a good example of African governmental mismanagement. Forty-two tonnes of nutrient rich food from a dog-food company was turned down by Kenya, despite the rampant starvation.


    Very mature.

    So far we have the arms trade and the world bank and not much refuting that except a few personal jibes and unbacked commentary on left over weapons.

    I was hoping to come back to this thread and talk about another part of the Genocide chapter of the Imperial agenda.

    What happened to the part about AIDs and bio warfare? Lets get into that, we've thrown up enough evidence about the arms trade and the world bank. I might post about CIA dealings in cokaine or the crack epidemic but I'm not sure that drugs would count as Bio-Khem.. sorry, chem.



    posted on Feb, 12 2006 @ 12:35 PM
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    Originally posted by Souljah
    Capital is dead labor, which, vampire-like, lives only by sucking living labor, and lives the more, the more labor it sucks.

    Words of Mister Karl Marx.

    Find anything Familiar?

    Tell me, who is the Vampire?


    Let me get this straight.....

    You are trying to show how bad Capitalism is by mentioning a quote from a man who came up with the worst economic system the history of the world has known, and which has caused, and is still causing, the death of millions of people worldwide?.....


    Shall we see what your good friend Karl Marx brought to the world?...



    All those figures are in millions btw, here is a link where more information can be found on the results that your wonderful friend Marx brought to the world with his economic system...

    www.hawaii.edu...

    Here are some other interesting facts.


    I BACKGROUND
    2. The New Concept of Democide [Definition of Democide]
    3. Over 133,147,000 Murdered: Pre-Twentieth Century Democide

    II 128,168,000 VICTIMS: THE DEKA-MEGAMURDERERS
    4. 61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State
    5. 35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Ant Hill

    6. 20,946,000 Murdered: The Nazi Genocide State
    7. 10,214,000 Murdered: The Depraved Nationalist Regime


    Excerpted from.
    www.hawaii.edu...

    As you can see your friend Marx brought the worse death and suffering to the world, is that what you have in mind for Africa too Souljah with your "revolutionary ideals"?

    That's just an overall number of the death your friend Marx brought to parts of the world, which does not convey the suffering and opression caused by that same system you seem to be so in love with.

    As always Souljah, you try, and fail once again, in your agenda to bring hatred to the west.


    Shall we go back to the topic? Africa has been used by many, which includes slavery, torture and deaths by the hands of other Africans, 10 centuries of Muslim rule and oppression, torture, slavery and unnacounted deaths by the hands of Muslims, 2 centuries of European rule and oppresion which also brought death, torture and slavery, among other things.

    Conclusion, the west is not the one to blame for everything that has happened in Africa, nor what is happening now by the hands of African warlords or Arab militias backed by Islamic governments...

    The west is not the one guilty for everything which has happened throughtout the whole world despite all your "claims" Souljah. It is true that countries in the west have had a hand in much of the suffering there, but what you are trying to do, which is place the whole blame and only blame the west, only shows your contempt and hatred of the west for whatever reasons.



    [edit on 12-2-2006 by Muaddib]



    posted on Feb, 12 2006 @ 01:11 PM
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    Originally posted by Rebel_Lion

    Very mature.

    So far we have the arms trade and the world bank and not much refuting that except a few personal jibes and unbacked commentary on left over weapons.


    That's an excellent personal jibe yourself. What, don't want to discuss African governments skimming aid meant for its citizens, or African governments finding that because the food is from a dog food company, they don't want it?

    Or did we not use fancy enough charts to display where weapons were coming from.

    When dr_strangecraft brought up Zimbawe, you ranted about free trade, which has little to do with that country's issues. Freedom of the press? Wait, that's solve that with FREE TRADE! Expulsion of white farmers? Just a step towards free trade, especially since only the dictator's personal supporters get the land!

    When I brought up the utter inaccuracies in your 'historical' accusations of slavery, you brought up...the olmecs!

    On page seven, shortly afterwards...Herr Doktor brings up once again African on African plundering and crime. Nothing.

    You too have plenty of unbacked commentary to account for, as well as a boatload of very questionable sources.

    We have the arms trade, which you have skewed with dollar value instead of hard numbers of weapons imported. Then, used the same source that Ace used, and asked him where he got his 'questionable information' from.

    I'm not gonna debate the world bank with you. I don't like it much either, but that's a private interest that you take a representing the whole of the west. In fact, you take every corporation as representing the west. You complain about things like capitalism. How's about this- no one buys any african products, so no money flows into africa, hmmm? That'll help. in your words,


    The privitization of Water, oil for aid, ''we'll give you money if you sell us''...


    is the problem. So, let the west take their ball and go home. Let's see how long Africans survive without aid. Can you eat gold or oil or diamonds? The west has funneled billions in aid into Africa through governments and private charities.


    I was hoping to come back to this thread and talk about another part of the Genocide chapter of the Imperial agenda.

    What happened to the part about AIDs and bio warfare? Lets get into that, we've thrown up enough evidence about the arms trade and the world bank. I might post about CIA dealings in cokaine or the crack epidemic but I'm not sure that drugs would count as Bio-Khem.. sorry, chem.


    Yes, because AIDS doesn't affect white people. That's why thirty thousand north americans died of it last year.

    en.wikipedia.org...

    I don't see any race lines of AIDS, do you? It's infecting people of every race and creed. But, of course, since it originated in Africa, it must be a conspiracy.

    Yes, all us white folks are out to get you. Each and every one of us, just like you suspected. Each of us secret racists and genocidal monsters, even teh children. Especially the children!

    DE



    posted on Feb, 12 2006 @ 02:08 PM
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    Africa is a # hole. Always has been, and most likely always will be. It isn't the West's fault, it isn't Islams fault, IT'S THEIR OWN DAMN FAULT.

    The people there have made almost ZERO progression on their own in any kind of capacity, and this was before Europe came in. The fact of the matter is that they have no sense of self responsability.

    Poor people there can't feed them selves, yet they go and have 10 kids. Not only that, but they have aids, and bring 10 aids infected babies into the world. It's stupid actions like that which are to blame for their problems.



    posted on Feb, 12 2006 @ 03:13 PM
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    Originally posted by Muaddib
    Shall we see what your good friend Karl Marx brought to the world?...

    What a Cute Compilation you posted - really Nice.

    All the regular Bad Guys are on it - Russia, China, North Korea.

    But how come the good Old United States did not make the top ten?

    Gee, ain't that strange?

    How can that be?

    Apparently this guys, that made this List, have MISSED a couple of the Pages of History Books - the ones that days US MILITARY INTERVENTIONS.

    Oops.

    I Forgot - IF it is Done by the United States it is FINE, Democratic and above all Humane! It has nothing to do with War Crimes, Genocide, Terrorism, or any of those Horrible words! They are reserved for the Bad Guys, right?

    This in the name of fighting a supposed Moral Crusade against what cold warriors convinced themselves, and the American people, was the existence of an evil International Communist Conspiracy, which in fact never existed, evil or not.

    The TRUTH is, that the United States carried out extremely serious interventions into more than 70 nations after World War 2 - which your cute list did not even mention.

    Here is a Brief History of United States Interventions, 1945 to the Present for all you, to REFRESH your Memory.

    I guess the People which Died in those Anti-Communist Campaigns all Deserved it and they all were Enemy Combatants, right?

    And this American foreign policy has been fueled not by a devotion to any kind of morality, but rather by the necessity to serve other imperatives, which can be summarized as follows:
    • Making the world safe for American corporations;

    • Enhancing the financial statements of defense contractors at home who have contributed generously to members of congress;

    • Preventing the rise of any society that might serve as a successful example of an alternative to the capitalist model;

    • Extending political and economic hegemony over as wide an area as possible, as befits a "great power."

    Ofcourse all of the Points Above are totally unacceptable for you mister Muaddib, for they are a part of Socialist Propaganda, right?

    How CONVENIENT for You and yours alike, that the Foreign Countries, which are the Enemies of the Good and Noble United States and its Politics of Military Economy, are Systematicly Bombed to Stone Age - while OTHER Dictatorship Regimes are Allowed, for they are also as Noble and Good as the MAIN Country that Supports them.

    Remember these People Sirs?



    Naaah - I thought you wouldn't.

    The History Books in America have a BIG HOLE, when it comes to talk about them, I guess. And that was planned to be that way. I guess Philippines, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Korea, South Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, El Salvador, Panama, Nicaragua, Chile, Grenada, Haiti, Iran, Iraq, Afganistan, Lebanon - do not mean Much to you.

    The real Number of People Killed by United Stats Foreign Military Interventions will probably NEVER be known.


    Basic Statistics for United States Imperialism

    Chronological list of intervention:

    1946 – Thailand (Pridi; conservative): success (CO)
    1946 – Argentina (Peron; military/centrist): failure (SE)
    1947 – France (*; communist): success (SE)
    1947 – Philippines (*; center-left): success (SE)
    1947 – Romania (Gheorghiu-Dej; stalinist): failure (CO)
    1948 – Italy (*, communist): success (SE)
    1948 – Colombia (Gaitan; populist/leftist): success (SE)
    1948 – Peru (Bustamante; left/centrist): success (CO)
    1949 – Syria (Kuwatli; neutralist/Pan-Arabist): success (CO)
    1949 – China (Mao; communist): failure (CO)
    1950 – Albania (Hoxha; communist): failure (CO)
    1951 – Bolivia (Paz; center/neutralist): success (CO)
    1951 – DPRK (Kim; stalinist): failure (OF)
    1951 – Poland (Cyrankiewicz; stalinist): failure (CO)
    1951 – Thailand (Phibun; conservative): success (CO)
    1952 – Egypt (Farouk; monarchist): success (CO)
    1952 – Cuba (Prio; reform/populist): success (CO)
    1952 – Lebanon (*; left/populist): success: (SE)
    1953 – British Guyana (*; left/populist): success (CO)
    1953 – Iran (Mossadegh; liberal nationalist): success (CO)
    1953 – Costa Rica (Figueres; reform liberal): failure (CO)
    1953 – Philippines (*; center-left): success (SE)
    1954 – Guatemala (Arbenz; liberal nationalist): success (OF)
    1955 – Costa Rica (Figueres; reform liberal): failure (CO)
    1955 – India (Nehru; neutralist/socialist): failure (CO)
    1955 – Argentina (Peron; military/centrist): success (CO)
    1955 – China (Zhou; communist): failure (CO)
    1955 – Vietnam (Ho; communist): success (SE)
    1956 – Hungary (Hegedus; communist): success (CO)
    1957 – Egypt (Nasser; military/nationalist): failure (CO)
    1957 – Haiti (Sylvain; left/populist): success (CO)
    1957 – Syria (Kuwatli; neutralist/Pan-Arabist): failure (CO)
    1958 – Japan (*; left-center): success (SE)
    1958 – Chile (*; leftists): success (SE)
    1958 – Iraq (Feisal; monarchist): success (CO)
    1958 – Laos (Phouma; nationalist): success (CO)
    1958 – Sudan (Sovereignty Council; nationalist): success (CO)
    1958 – Lebanon (*; leftist): success (SE)
    1958 – Syria (Kuwatli; neutralist/Pan-Arabist): failure (CO)
    1958 – Indonesia (Sukarno; militarist/neutralist): failure (SE)
    1959 – Laos (Phouma; nationalist): success (CO)
    1959 – Nepal (*; left-centrist): success (SE)
    1959 – Cambodia (Sihanouk; moderate/neutralist): failure (CO)
    1960 – Ecuador (Ponce; left/populist): success (CO)
    1960 – Laos (Phouma; nationalist): success (CO)
    1960 – Iraq (Qassem; rightist /militarist): failure (CO)
    1960 – S. Korea (Syngman; rightist): success (CO)
    1960 – Turkey (Menderes; liberal): success (CO)
    1961 – Haiti (Duvalier; rightist/militarist): success (CO)
    1961 – Cuba (Castro; communist): failure (CO)
    1961 – Congo (Lumumba; leftist/pan-Africanist): success (CO)
    1961 – Dominican Republic (Trujillo; rightwing/military): success (CO)
    1962 – Brazil (Goulart; liberal/neutralist): failure (SE)
    1962 – Dominican Republic (*; left/populist): success (SE)
    1962 – Indonesia (Sukarno; militarist/neutralist): failure (CO)
    1963 – Dominican Republic (Bosch; social democrat): success (CO)
    1963 – Honduras (Montes; left/populist): success (CO)
    1963 – Iraq (Qassem; militarist/rightist): success (CO)
    1963 – S. Vietnam (Diem; rightist): success (CO)
    1963 – Cambodia (Sihanouk; moderate/neutralist): failure (CO)
    1963 – Guatemala (Ygidoras; rightist/reform): success (CO)
    1963 – Ecuador (Velasco; reform militarist): success (CO)
    1963 – United States (Kennedy; liberal): success (CO)
    1964 – Guyana (Jagan; populist/reformist): success (CO)
    1964 – Bolivia (Paz; centrist/neutralist): success (CO)
    1964 – Brazil (Goulart; liberal/neutralist): success (CO)
    1964 – Chile (Allende; social democrat/marxist): success (SE)
    1965 – Indonesia (Sukarno; militarist/neutralist): success (CO)
    1966 – Ghana (Nkrumah; leftist/pan-Africanist): success (CO)
    1966 – Bolivia (*; leftist): success (SE)
    1966 – France (de Gaulle; centrist): failure (CO)
    1967 – Greece (Papandreou; social democrat): success (CO)
    1968 – Iraq (Arif; rightist): success (CO)
    1969 – Panama (Torrijos; military/reform populist): failure (CO)
    1969 – Libya (Idris; monarchist): success (CO)
    1970 – Bolivia (Ovando; reform nationalist): success (CO)
    1970 – Cambodia (Sihanouk; moderate/neutralist): success (CO)
    1970 – Chile (Allende; social democrat/Marxist): failure (SE)
    1971 – Bolivia (Torres; nationalist/neutralist): success (CO)
    1971 – Costa Rica (Figueres; reform liberal): failure (CO)
    1971 – Liberia (Tubman; rightist): success (CO)
    1971 – Turkey (Demirel; center-right): success (CO)
    1971 – Uruguay (Frente Amplio; leftist): success (SE)
    1972 – El Salvador (*; leftist): success (SE)
    1972 – Australia (Whitlam; liberal/labor): failure (SE)
    1973 – Chile (Allende; social democrat/Marxist): success (CO)
    1974 – United States (Nixon; centrist): success (CO)
    1975 – Australia (Whitlam; liberal/labor): success (CO)
    1975 – Congo (Mobutu; military/rightist): failure (CO)
    1975 – Bangladesh (Mujib; nationalist): success (CO)
    1976 – Jamaica (Manley; social democrat): failure (SE)
    1976 – Portugal (JNS; military/leftist): success (SE)
    1976 – Nigeria (Mohammed; military/nationalist): success (CO)
    1976 – Thailand (*; rightist): success (CO)
    1976 – Uruguay (Bordaberry; center-right): success (CO)
    1977 – Pakistan (Bhutto: center/nationalist): success (CO)
    1978 – Dominican Republic (Balaguer; center): success (SE)
    1979 – S. Korea (Park; rightist): success (CO)
    1979 – Nicaragua (Sandinistas; leftist): failure (CO)
    1980 – Bolivia (Siles; centrist/reform): success (CO)
    1980 – Iran (Khomeini; Islamic nationalist): failure (CO)
    1980 – Italy (*; leftist): success (SE)
    1980 – Liberia (Tolbert; rightist): success (CO)
    1980 – Jamaica (Manley; social democrat): success (SE)
    1980 – Dominica (Seraphin; leftist): success (SE)
    1980 – Turkey (Demirel; center-right): success (CO)
    1981 – Seychelles (René; socialist): failure (CO)
    1981 – Spain (Suarez; rightist/neutralist): failure (CO)
    1981 – Panama (Torrijos; military/reform populist); success (CO)
    1981 – Zambia (Kaunda; reform nationalist): failure (CO)
    1982 – Mauritius (*; center-left): failure (SE)
    1982 – Spain (Suarez; rightist/neutralist): success (SE)
    1982 – Iran (Khomeini; Islamic nationalist): failure (CO)
    1982 – Chad (Oueddei; Islamic nationalist): success (CO)
    1983 – Mozambique (Machel; socialist): failure (CO)
    1983 – Grenada (Bishop; socialist): success (OF)
    1984 – Panama (*; reform/centrist): success (SE)
    1984 – Nicaragua (Sandinistas; leftist): failure (SE)
    1984 – Surinam (Bouterse; left/reformist/neutralist): success (CO)
    1984 – India (Gandhi; nationalist): success (CO)
    1986 – Libya (Qaddafi; Islamic nationalist): failure (OF)
    1987 – Fiji (Bavrada; liberal): success (CO)
    1989 – Panama (Noriega; military/reform populist): success (OF)
    1990 – Haiti (Aristide; liberal reform): failure (SE)
    1990 – Nicaragua (Ortega; Christian socialist): success (SE)
    1991 – Albania (Alia; communist): success (SE)
    1991 – Haiti (Aristide; liberal reform): success (CO)
    1991 – Iraq (Hussein; military/rightist): failure (OF)
    1991 – Bulgaria (BSP; communist): success (SE)
    1992 – Afghanistan (Najibullah; communist): success (CO)
    1993 – Somalia (Aidid; right/militarist): failure (OF)
    1993 – Cambodia (Han Sen/CPP; leftist): failure (SE)
    1993 – Burundi (Ndadaye; conservative): success (CO)
    1994 – El Salvador (*; leftist): success (SE)
    1994 – Rwanda (Habyarimana; conservative): success (CO)
    1994 – Ukraine (Kravchuk; center-left): success (SE)
    1996 – Bosnia (Karadzic; centrist): success (CO)
    1996 – Russia (Zyuganov; communist): success (SE)
    1996 – Congo (Mobutu; military/rightist): success (CO)
    1996 – Mongolia (*; center-left): success (SE)
    1998 – Congo (Kabila; rightist/military): success (CO)
    1998 – United States (Clinton; conservative): failure (CO)
    1998 – Indonesia (Suharto; military/rightist): success (CO)
    1999 – Yugoslavia (Milosevic; left/nationalist): success (SE)
    2000 – United States (Gore; conservative): success (SE)
    2000 – Ecuador (NSC; leftist): success: (CO)
    2001 – Afghanistan (Omar; rightist/Islamist): success (OF)
    2001 – Belarus (Lukashenko; leftist): failure (SE)
    2001 – Nicaragua (Ortega; Christian socialist): success (SE)
    2001 – Nepal (Birendra; nationalist/monarchist): success (CO)
    2002 – Venezuela (Chavez; reform-populist): failure (CO)
    2002 – Bolivia (Morales; leftist/MAS): success (SE)
    2002 – Brazil (Lula; center-left): failure (SE)


    Chronological list of US murder toll:

    China (1945-60): 200K
    Greece (1947-49): 100K
    Korea (1951-53): 2M
    Guatemala (1954-2002): 300K
    Vietnam (1960-75): 2M
    Laos (1965-73): 500K
    Cambodia (1969-75): 1M
    Indonesia (1965): 500K
    Colombia (1966-2002): 500K
    Oman (1970): 10K
    Bangladesh (1971): 2M
    Uganda (1971-1979): 200K
    Chile (1973-1990): 20K
    East Timor (1975): 200K
    Angola (1975-2002): 1.5M
    Argentina (1976-1979): 30K
    Afghanistan (1978-2002): 1M
    El Salvador (1980-95): 100K
    Nicaragua (1980-90): 100K
    Mozambique (1981-1988): 1M
    Turkey (1984-2002): 50K
    Rwanda (1990-1996): 1M
    Iraq (1991-2002): 1M
    Somalia (1991-1994): 300K
    Yugoslavia (1991-2002): 300K
    Liberia (1992-2002): 150K
    Burundi (1993-1999): 200K
    Sudan (1998): 100K
    Congo (1998-2002): 3M


    Togather that makes Rougly 18+ MILLION PEOPLE!

    And lets nor FORGET, that CIA alone is RESPONSIBLE for 6 million People Were killed third world countries.

    Togatjer that 24 Million people.

    So, why isn' that Mentioned in your Cute List?

    So, when you are done with playing Devils Advocate for all the Filthy War Crimes aginst Humanity, done by the Foreign Policies of United States and its Corrupt Corporate Owned Goverments - please, stick to the TOPIC, mmmkey?

    And allow me to end with a Quote by an AMERICAN General, an ex US Marine, which I think that you will just Love:


    General Smedley Butler

    I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested.

    Not Much Changed since the 1920's, has it mister Muaddib?

    Still STEALING from Other Countries to Boost Your Eceonomy are ya?

    War is a Racket, if you did not know yet.



    posted on Feb, 12 2006 @ 03:25 PM
    link   

    Chronological list of US murder toll:

    China (1945-60): 200K
    Greece (1947-49): 100K
    Korea (1951-53): 2M
    Guatemala (1954-2002): 300K
    Vietnam (1960-75): 2M
    Laos (1965-73): 500K
    Cambodia (1969-75): 1M
    Indonesia (1965): 500K
    Colombia (1966-2002): 500K
    Oman (1970): 10K
    Bangladesh (1971): 2M
    Uganda (1971-1979): 200K
    Chile (1973-1990): 20K
    East Timor (1975): 200K
    Angola (1975-2002): 1.5M
    Argentina (1976-1979): 30K
    Afghanistan (1978-2002): 1M
    El Salvador (1980-95): 100K
    Nicaragua (1980-90): 100K
    Mozambique (1981-1988): 1M
    Turkey (1984-2002): 50K
    Rwanda (1990-1996): 1M
    Iraq (1991-2002): 1M
    Somalia (1991-1994): 300K
    Yugoslavia (1991-2002): 300K
    Liberia (1992-2002): 150K
    Burundi (1993-1999): 200K
    Sudan (1998): 100K
    Congo (1998-2002): 3M

    You have got to be kidding me with that list Souljah.

    How does the US get the blame for people killed in the 1971 civil war between Pakistan and Bangladesh?

    How about Rwanda? Who did the US kill there?

    How did the US kill 1 million people in Afghanistan?
    That was a Soviet Invansion, not a US invasion. If you are going to blame the US for the death toll because they supported the insurgents then you need to take Vietnem off of the list and blame Russia and China for supporting insurgents.

    How does the US get the blame for Yugoslavia when they moved in to stop the killing?

    You really try to put the blame for all of the world's wars onto the backs of the Western world.



    posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 08:59 AM
    link   

    Originally posted by AceOfBase
    How about Rwanda? Who did the US kill there?

    How did the US kill 1 million people in Afghanistan?
    That was a Soviet Invansion, not a US invasion. If you are going to blame the US for the death toll because they supported the insurgents then you need to take Vietnem off of the list and blame Russia and China for supporting insurgents.

    How does the US get the blame for Yugoslavia when they moved in to stop the killing?

    You really try to put the blame for all of the world's wars onto the backs of the Western world.

    Ah well - give or take a Million.

    US do not DO Bodycounts, Remember?

    Still, if you deduct from the Grand Total the Number of casualties in the Above stated conflicts, you still get a Number HIGH in Millions - which would make United States a part of the Cute list, that mister Mudaddib posted, to further back HIS own agenda.

    Tell me, why is His list without ANY Victims of the US Foreign Politics?




    Now about RWANDA:

    Declassified documents from the US show that the US, contrary to their OWN claims otherwise at the time, Knew of the coming Genocide, but chose NOT to do anything about it!


    The US and the Genocide in Rwanda 1994

    Evidence of Inaction

    “The plan appears to have been to wipe out any RPF ally or potential ally, and thus raise the costs and limit the possibility of an RPF/Tutsi takeover… No end to the unprecedented bloodshed is yet in sight.”

    How Nice.

    Want more?


    Rwanda Genocide: What The US Knew

    “The documents confirm what was already known,” says Rwanda researcher Alison de Forge of Human Rights Watch, “but the fact that it is from a US source and that it is in writing will seem more impressive to some Americans.”

    The Rwandans who organized and executed the genocide must bear full responsibility for it.

    But genocide anywhere implicates everyone.


    HRW - Leave None to Tell the Story; Genocide in Rwanda

    To the extent that governments and peoples elsewhere failed to prevent and halt this killing campaign, they all share in the shame of the crime.

    In addition, the U.N. staff as well as the three foreign governments principally involved in Rwanda bear added responsibility:
    • U.N. staff for having failed to provide adequate information and guidance to members of the Security Council;

    • Belgium, for having withdrawn its troops precipitately and for having championed total withdrawal of the U.N. force;

    • U.S. for having put saving money ahead of saving lives and for slowing the sending of a relief force;

    • France, for having continued its support of a government engaged in genocide.

    In contrast to the inaction of the major actors, some non-permanent members of the Security Council with no traditional ties with Rwanda undertook to push for a U.N. force to protect Tutsi from extermination. But all members of the Security Council brought discredit on the U.N. by permitting the representative of a genocidal government to continue sitting in the Security Council, a council supposedly committed to peace....

    FURTHERMORE,
    Mister Michel Chossudovsky, says that US is Behind the Rwanda Genocide in his Text, and US had their own strategic and economic motives in Central Africa.


    Rwanda: Installing a US Protectorate in Central Africa

    “Washington's objective was to displace France, discredit the French government (which had supported the Habyarimana regime) and install an Anglo-American protectorate in Rwanda under Major General Paul Kagame. Washington deliberately did nothing to prevent the ethnic massacres.

    If true, this would suggest that France, Belgium AND America have a lot of blood on their Hands.

    So - YES, Ace, I think United States is Responsible form Rwanda Genocide, which caused the Deaths of around a Million People.

    [edit on 13/2/06 by Souljah]



    posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 09:14 AM
    link   


    souljah:

    The Rwandans who organized and executed the genocide must bear full responsibility for it.

    But genocide anywhere implicates everyone.


    Then why put the blame on the US?
    Slovenia is just as responsible for the genocide as they did nothing to stop it.

    I don't agree with the theories in your last link because the US didn't move in to assert control in Rwanda after it was over.

    EDIT:
    Your link from the National Security Archive says they knew attacks were going to take place against the RPF and you assume that the US is responsible for the slaughter because they did nothing about it but it you look at your globalreasearch link it says the US supported the RPF.

    There appears to be some contradiction between official FOIA documents and the globalresearch conspiracy site.

    [edit on 13-2-2006 by AceOfBase]



    posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 09:41 AM
    link   

    Originally posted by AceOfBase
    Then why put the blame on the US?

    Why? Didn't you Read the Links?
    Let's say you're a Cop, and know that somebody is going to Kill later this day, and you know exactly where and when, and you do nothing about it - are you responsible for the death of the vicitm? IMHO you are, for if you really Are a Cop, it is your Duty to do something.



    Slovenia is just as responsible for the genocide as they did nothing to stop it.

    Sorry my friend, Slovenia is not playing World Cop across the Globe - we can barely defend ourselves and our own borders, what more we do not really have not the resources not the manpower not the military technology to go any play Empire games alongside with France, Belgium and United States.



    I don't agree with the theories in your last link because the US didn't move in to assert control in Rwanda after it was over.

    Well - then don't.



    There appears to be some contradiction between official FOIA documents and the globalresearch conspiracy site.

    Ofcourse there is Contradiction.

    And Global Research is not a Conspiracy Site - I mean it is for you, because the Articles that they provide simply have to be Conspiracy, and not Reality right?

    You know, I belive mister Michel Chossudovsky BEFORE any Goverment of this Planet!



    posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 10:52 AM
    link   
    I know this will come off badly but I'm gonna say it anyway. Why can't we redraw the map? The UN has done this before they can do it again, righ?



    posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 11:08 AM
    link   

    What, don't want to discuss African governments skimming aid meant for its citizens


    Yeah and knowing that they can't do squat because their industry has already been contracted out to private owners in Vampire land.


    Or did we not use fancy enough charts to display where weapons were coming from


    No you didn't use fancy enough graphs.. you've hardly used any compared to what we have.

    This thread has been dominated by SoulJah and myself. Myself to the lesser extent I admit but considering the fact that theres only two of us and thats a fact... One person named SoulJah and another named Rebel-lion, do we need graphs and visual aid here too?

    1+1=2

    Got that, ok, can we move on? Or do you want to ask about that part again?

    I'd say that we've more or less taken you guys to the shop, bought you a few nessecities and left you out in the wilderness with the leeches...


    Freedom of the press? Wait, that's solve that with FREE TRADE!


    Yeah and with your brainwashed sheepish self you probably think that the press in the west is free as well huh?


    When I brought up the utter inaccuracies in your 'historical' accusations of slavery, you brought up...The Olmecs


    You asked about America and I simply gave you the link, Christopher Cohen was probably the first westerner on that land but tribes in Africa speak of travelling there waaay before you guys ever set foot on it... and commited genocide...


    Genocide = The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

    Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:

    1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and

    2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."


    Can you read that? Ok, we'll move on...

    Austrailia... the carribean... south america...the muslems... Glad you read the link abuot The Olmecs though, did you buy the book/check the links?

    I think this discussion would be totally diffrent if it was face to face. The fact that you guys have your lower halves hidden behind desks makes you more confident to post rubbish when its obvious that the truth is slapping you in the face like a wet fish on sunday.


    I'm not gonna debate the world bank with you. I don't like it much either, but that's a private interest


    Read the info and see who its run by again plz. I'm glad your cranium absorbed something now all you have to do is realize that its the same with the arms trade and that the document both myself and ace used backs up myself and souljahs argument.... Oxfam and other charities are calling for the arms industry to be brought into touch just as they too call for free trade.


    How's about this- no one buys any african products


    You are right... they steal it to add their jumped up prices to it all.... or refine it to make it cheaper... or make Khemical subsitutes so they don't have to import it, poisioning their own for a quick profit.

    Half the fruit juice in the west isn't even real its more like 20% actual fruit and the rest is artificial khemicals and refined sugar.


    So, let the west take their ball and go home.


    THANK YOU!

    A decent comment! I might even make this one another part of my sig. You are a goldmine DE, you really are.


    Yes, all us white folks are out to get you. Each and every one of us, just like you suspected. Each of us secret racists and genocidal monsters, even teh children


    Nah, most of you have just been tricked by your own people. It makes it tough when the truth about things are told, they then get confused and think their way of life is under threat when people talk about justice for those in poorer nations and so they fall into supporting those that have been tricking them for so long... some of teh'm can't even spell correctly as I've highlighted quite a few times in this thread. Break down a few english words and its actually there.

    There is significant evidence that AIDs is a man made virus, the blame is passed onto poor nations cause they can't defend themselves. Most people from poor nations don't trust anything the west puts out and its all scrutinized, as said, we see things from the outside where as others are too busy making mortgage repayments to even check for things.

    You say you're from Mexico?

    Shall I get out some information on you guys as well. Its not as though you dont suffer under imperial rule either. I watch US tv... they use the same put down tactics on you as they do on us Af'ricans.


    You have got to be kidding me with that list Souljah.

    How does the US get the blame for people killed in the 1971 civil war between Pakistan and Bangladesh?

    How about Rwanda? Who did the US kill there?

    How did the US kill 1 million people in Afghanistan?
    That was a Soviet Invansion, not a US invasion. If you are going to blame the US for the death toll because they supported the insurgents then you need to take Vietnem off of the list and blame Russia and China for supporting insurgents.

    How does the US get the blame for Yugoslavia when they moved in to stop the killing?

    You really try to put the blame for all of the world's wars onto the backs of the Western world.


    Yup, its not exactly made known that the war in Iraq has killed more people than Saddam did. The press isn't free, just like when they had info on Prince Charles having gay sessions with his butler, they ban it from the press.

    Check out the stats Mr. Base its all there.

    Oh yeah and prehaps Alexander didn't deface the Egyptian monuments. I've heard of it but theres more stories on that one than I thought... Turks.. they fell over... apparently they thought if you chop off the nose of a statue the person it was dedicated to would loose their soul or somethng.






    [edit on 13-2-2006 by Rebel_Lion]



    posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 02:40 PM
    link   

    Originally posted by Rebel_Lion
    Yeah and with your brainwashed sheepish self you probably think that the press in the west is free as well huh?


    Let's see...in the west, I won't be jailed or shot for criticizing the government, or big industry, or just about anything else for that matter. I won't be dragged out of bed and shot in the middle of the street for saying that the government of Zimbabwe is stealing from the citizens.

    Can the citizens of Zimbabwe say the same?



    You asked about America and I simply gave you the link, Christopher Cohen was probably the first westerner on that land but tribes in Africa speak of travelling there waaay before you guys ever set foot on it... and commited genocide...


    'Speak of' and 'actually did' don't seem to be seperated for you. Africans can speak of going to china or the new world, but it doesn't mean it actually happened. Speaking of which, because a person says that Africa is the root of all good things, and that the west is the home of devils in men's skin doesn't make it true.

    The first westerners on North America were Vikings, led by Leif Ericson. They settled briefly in Anse-aux-Meadows, but soon left. The first permenant settlers from the West were French.

    en.wikipedia.org...
    en.wikipedia.org...


    Genocide = The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

    Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:

    1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and

    2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."


    Can you read that? Ok, we'll move on...

    Austrailia... the carribean... south america...the muslems... Glad you read the link abuot The Olmecs though, did you buy the book/check the links?

    No more than you're listening to me.

    The link to the Olmecs was bull. As for genocide, we sure did destroy all those people. Tough break. See, most of those places have moved beyond the past. Australia and the Americas are currently well developed and generally peaceful nations. The muslims traded genocidal tendecies with the west for roughly four centuries, starting with the Moorish invasion of Spain. But, back to my point. By and large, most of the places listed reside here, in the 21st century. They don't shake their fists and type up snide remarks while ignoring all the proof piled in front of them.

    I never said the west was perfect, but then again, I never said Africa was entirely at fault. You, however, play a game of extremes. Let me give you a solid link here, and tell me what you think of the first half or so.

    en.wikipedia.org...

    Yeah, Africans were enslaving each other before Europeans arrived, then sold each other to Europeans, and continue to enslave each other. Yep, all at no profit to whitey, whaddya know.


    I think this discussion would be totally diffrent if it was face to face. The fact that you guys have your lower halves hidden behind desks makes you more confident to post rubbish when its obvious that the truth is slapping you in the face like a wet fish on sunday.


    Yes, you have indeed changed no opinions. My stance regarding the west and Africa's downwards spirals has, in fact, not changed. But if it makes you feel better, sit on top of your mountain of questionable sources and evasions. Nothing has changed, except you keep getting madder and madder.


    Read the info and see who its run by again plz. I'm glad your cranium absorbed something now all you have to do is realize that its the same with the arms trade and that the documnt both myself and ace used backs up myself and souljahs argument.... Oxfam and other charities are calling for the arms industry to be brought into touch just as they too call for free trade.


    It's all in the interpretation. You scream that the west imports all sorts of weapons into 'third world countries'. They included of course Israel in that category, so much of your argument seems to fall flat on its face. Russia ships the most guns, tanks, and bombs into the 'third world', but it's simply convinient to blame the US.


    You are right... they steal it to add their jumped up prices to it all.... or refine it to make it cheaper... or make Khemical subsitutes so they don't have to import it, poisioning their own for a quick profit.

    Half the fruit juice in the west isn't even real its more like 20% actual fruit and the rest is artificial khemicals and refined sugar.


    It's almost like you care about us. Almost. The way you play it out to be, every third African is white, and we're stealing everything not nailed down. But then again, what does fruit juice and chemicals have to do with the diamonds and gold supposedly being stolen?


    Nah, most of you have just been tricked by your own people. It makes it tough when the truth about things are told, they then get confused and think their way of life is under threat when people talk about justice for those in poorer nations and so they fall into supporting those that have been tricking them for so long... some of teh'm can't even spell correctly as I've highlighted quite a few times in this thread. Break down a few english words and its actually there.


    Oh yes. Indeed, I once felt sympathy for poor Africa. But then, I looked a little deeper, and realized that the primary reason Africa continues to be the toilet it is are internal problems. Leaders buy arms instead of food. Steal from the people. Just flat out can't manage a country. And then, I realized that this was entirely not my fault. I realized my family had never owned slaves. I haven't commited genocide, I haven't stolen from Africa. I won a roll of the cosmic dice, and ended up being a have instead of a have not. Both will always exist. Sure, I try to alliviate the suffering in other countries- five bucks here or there to charity- but that's what it is, charity. Giving because I'm a kind human soul. I'm not trying to pawn off all my problems on 'the system' or 'whitey' or the United States.


    There is significant evidence that AIDs is a man made virus, the blame is passed onto poor nations cause they can't defend themselves. Most people from poor nations don't trust anything the west puts out and its all scrutinized, as said, we see things from the outside where as others are too busy making mortgage repayments to even check for things.


    Show me, and maybe I'll believe you. But unless you can prove that someone had the know-how to make it in 1959, I'm pretty skeptical. The three earliest cases of HIV are as follows:

    1. A plasma sample taken in 1959 from an adult male living in what is now the Democratic Republic of Congo [64].
    2. HIV found in tissue samples from an American teenager who died in St. Louis in 1969.
    3. HIV found in tissue samples from a Norwegian sailor who died around 1976.

    From en.wikipedia.org... .


    You say you're from Mexico?

    Shall I get out some information on you guys as well. Its not as though you dont suffer under imperial rule either. I watch US tv... they use the same put down tactics on you as they do on us Af'ricans.


    No, I don't. Check the bar to the left, it clearly says Canada. I don't suffer from imperial rule. As a colony founded during an imperial age, we actually DID have an imperial overlord or two.

    When did I ever say I'm from Mexico?

    Anyways, once you get your civility back, I'm willing to debate this.

    DE



    posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 05:16 PM
    link   

    I won't be jailed or shot for criticizing the government, or big industry, or just about anything else for that matter.


    The US government along with others even go abroad and kill people who talk too much. I could go through a list of people who've said/done too much and ended up dead at the hands of the state for it.

    Its said that,

    ''In America they shoot you, in England they assasinate your character''

    I'm not sure which is worse.

    Tabs are even kept on libary take outs so people don't get too deep. Either that or you get dubbed anti America for not allowing them to commit crimes in your name... i won't go into the arms industry and distubing their sales in the Carribean like Garnett Silk or Bob Marley did... Could post a list... they even killed that scientist over here in the UK, forget his character! The man even left a note saying he'd be found dead in the woods and voila! He was found dead in the woods at the back of his house... Princess Diana?

    I really wont go on.


    Speaking of which, because a person says that Africa is the root of all good things, and that the west is the home of devils in men's skin doesn't make it true.


    This is an example of you people feeling threatened and standing up for something ie; a system, you don't understand.

    I'm Jamaican... if my people heard me talking about how, ''we're all African'' they'd jump me. Those Af' Ricans sold us out and got played by the Europeans afterward. Most of us still don't like them for it. I know what Af' Rica has given to the world and its a whole heap belive me but I'm not on here saying its all good, I just don't stand for it when I see an injustice being commited and look around to notice how I'm surrounded by people who'd rather deny that injustice and play ignorant to it... watching ''my'' people (I haven't traced my heritage yet) starve rather than give them a fair chance.. Ie; Fair Trade. Amongst other things.


    The first westerners on North America were Vikings, led by Leif Ericson. They settled briefly in Anse-aux-Meadows, but soon left. The first permenant settlers from the West were French.


    Yes I know that, The Olmecs were there before that and shared knowledge with the Incas and Amer-indians. A people we consider to be our brothers. Back then it was about Knowledge, they shared, it wasn't about money and materialism. The Pagans are another bunch who would agree. Which is why theres so many theories as to what changed in the world. David icke and what not... not that I belive in his stuff.


    Yeah, Africans were enslaving each other before Europeans arrived, then sold each other to Europeans, and continue to enslave each other. Yep, all at no profit to whitey, whaddya know.


    Again, you're talking to a Jamaican here.

    You feel threatened and with my readings into psycology i can tell its you thats getting hairy. I have a reason to. I only took your quote as my sig to piss you off, its all part of the debate man. You're on here talking abut a topic you dont know about... about people that are starving, people that are dying for no damn reason except peoples ignorance be it that of a fustrated Af'Rican dictator or the governments of the major nations who'd rather those people die than let go of their hold on their economy.

    You haven't even read what I've been typing...

    I'm pro 3rd world and as my roots are in Af' Rica thats what I fight for the most. The Irish are still fighting for their north back from the English and us Jamaicans and Irish get along quite a bit, we both share quite a few personality traits. I don't have this whole whitey thing going... I've got white people in my family! I even respect the rich Engish folk (the toffs) for their wit and essentrisms belive it or not.

    (I was born & raised by the Ghettos but had a private education, I love the people I've known and met that are struggling, some could even be dead by now, including a few family members but I can't do anything but chat on websites and sit with groups who are watched by government agents and messed up at every turning by both their own and by outsiders. Jewlers who wouldnt want to pay any more for the blood diamonds they get etc etc)

    Its the government policies that I don't stand for... its the fact that I am treated as though I am poor or as a criminal when if Af'rica was given back its status, if the media would stop portaying it as some crappy continent that hasn't contributed to society everything would be fine. I think you're kinda messing with Karma when you just bounce things off in the way you do man, i'd like to bring you to a meeting so you can see some of the people there and let you have the floor for a minute. You'd have a rethink belive me.

    I'm part of a group, a freedom group that does its part for those people, you're on here trying to tell me whats going on when I've sat with those people, my friends wont even talk about half the stuff on here

    (I actually asked them to join in but they haven't)

    they break down and cry when they try and talk about it its that bad. lol. This is no free world if you're one of us my friend trust me, we're persecuted something you can't understand. Police stopping me with my old man outside my house... being jumped in the street by drunk English people with nothing else to do... Drug dealers (turkish and others) that think cause my family isn't poor we must deal drugs and feel to shoot me because they don't like Af'Ricans and think bad of us.

    Its no blame game when you know whats going on and its not your fault, back to my talk about guilt, YOU haven't gone to Af'Rica/the 3rd world and signed contracts with terrible people to export diamonds for weapons have you? Its the GOVERNMENTS of the major nations playing power ball with peoples lives and holding down YOU with the rubbish they put up in the media/schools.

    Canada is a liberal country I've been there, I've got family there, even you guys don't like it when you're dragged into war with the US. It does you no good, eh? (sorry) I was out in CA when 9/11 happened. I was talking to my US cousin abuot what we are now and she hit me back with a whole heap about the Civil war and how England this and England that... woha man... I wouldn't even call myself English but it was the same thing,

    ''we do this'' and ''we do that! why should america police the world?!''

    As though I was commenting on HER. Those people at the top are a seperate class. At least here in the UK, their feet aren't on the ground man. Its their actions, ones that the pubilc don't vote for, that myself and other are against. Not ''whitey''.

    lol.

    My ''half aunty'' Suzy (blonde hair blue eyes) had to get that one cause she felt uncomfortable about coming round a house full of Jamaicans, she had to bring her friend incase we delved into the problems in our country, something the English play a part in... we're not just a bunch of gun weilding fools, the problems are political, we'd have a Rasta'fari as PM if we could but it'll never happen due to interferance in our ways. We are how ever fed up of our situation, fed up of being mistreated and belive me, when I and I get pissed off we express it we've been fighting for a good 600+ years now i could even explain why we use machine guns and not just pistols... I also belive that we still carry our tribal beliefs in life and death. We're so close that we don't understand it when some of us are rich and others are poor, its as though you've traitored your own (which is true on part) if you're puching a lexus like mine and your family is back a' yard and hungry... same with the muslems.. problem is that we can't go back there cause theres nothing we can do for all of them like they'd want us to. So humble they'd come round our house (those that make it to england) and steal rather than ask for something, they don't wanna keep asking for hand outs, they're too strong for that... even though I still want my earphones back and don't see the point in my cousin taking two end weights and not the whole set.

    Some nations and peoples don't live in the way the west does they just don't click with the capitalism and the money is power thing, they don't get it, they'd rather not bother, they live off/with the land and don't see why they should pay mortgage rates and insurance when they don't need it... along with other things. This extends to the Arabs as well in a way, and the East/Southern indians... those in the tropics of the far east. They don't want to play power ball but are pushed around by these bullies, some are even wiped out for their land. Robins Bay in Jamaica is an example of that... hope they don't kill the Rastas there, they want hotels on the bay but the local have been there for years and don't want to move.

    I think you've got me wrong, like I'm some totalitarian (sp) that dosen't see the internal problems in Af'Rica that imply to most in the 3rd world. Heck, i like quite a few aspects of the west, I'm not stupid.. not as though I'd want to live in a country where a religion is forced on me to be honest. I just don't want to see or hear abut my people dying when its unessary... and there are some aspects of capitalism that I don't see as nessary, just as my people don't.

    Water and a roof over your head shouldn't be something you pay for. With the price of somethings out here in the UK its obvious why people resort to crime.

    The focus needs changing here, as said, I know whats going on in politics etc.. heck amongst other things I'm self employed and get monthly updates on world trade (import/export) and the stock markets. making the money to send home/to Af'rica to help those out there... not money but the things they need and don't have to keep asking for. I'm not posting about geopolitics and all that again its been done and dusted.

    Tear apart this post and ask questions if you want.





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