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Atheism vs. christianty

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posted on Feb, 24 2006 @ 07:18 AM
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Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
1) What problems, per se, are you saying they face?
2)And also, giving freely of yourself when it isn't asked can be just as insulting as not when you are.
3)I am guessing you believe it is a christian's responsibility to spread the gospel and save everyone.


1) Life in general. Problems pop up all the time that need fixing. Maybe for instance they are having a hard time with some illness or maybe they are in need of a financial blessing or maybe they are in need of a shoulder to cry on. All of these things can helped by either a good ear and some prayer or simple intervention. God puts people in your path when you follow Him that you can attend to. The story of the samaritan wasn't just a cute story, it was a template for the Christian character showing the fruits of the Spirit in a tangible way.

2) If someone is insulted because you are trying to help them, that help can just as easily be withdrawn to make the situation more palatable for the one in need. It has been my experience that as long as you are non-judgemental of the situation and LISTEN (this is one factor that MANY forget) most people are more than willing to tell their story (like Jesus did when they brought the naked lady who got caught in the very act of adultry). It is at the end of that story you can help formulate a plan to resolve the issues at hand or just ask if you can pray with them. Most people are not going to beat you over the head of they are in real need of help and you ask to intervein in prayer on their behalf.

3) Absolutely, it is the primary mission of ALL who follow Christ to take up His cross and tell others about the Gospel and let them make the choice of following after or not (I mean did Jesus when He called to His desciples say "follow me right now or I'll make you all chickens with three heads"). I truely think that God is pro-choice (I know there will be some Christians who are going to flame me for this) but if free will isn't pro-choice then what is? If Jesus in His benevolence didn't want to have us follow out of LOVE and not compulsion then why lay the foundation for others to follow and make salvation soooo easy IF we open our eyes to truth and "come see and taste of the waters of life"? It is our duty out of that love that compels us to tell others that "all have sinned and come short" (including me) that He made a way of escape (just like He always does in times of His judgement falling on humanity) and it truely includes all in my signature if you really read the scriptures with an open mind. What we must come to the conclusion of is that nothing in this life is going into eternity with us as we step off into the void. With that in mind why concentrate our efforts on things that are going to rust or melt or get put into a landfill? It has been said the only thing you can take into eternity is your children, IF you teach them to way to get where you're going and they follow in your footsteps.

Not a serman just a thought (or so I've heard on the radio).




posted on Feb, 24 2006 @ 03:37 PM
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Originally posted by OneGodJesus

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
1) What problems, per se, are you saying they face?
2)And also, giving freely of yourself when it isn't asked can be just as insulting as not when you are.
3)I am guessing you believe it is a christian's responsibility to spread the gospel and save everyone.


1) Life in general. Problems pop up all the time that need fixing. Maybe for instance they are having a hard time with some illness or maybe they are in need of a financial blessing or maybe they are in need of a shoulder to cry on. All of these things can helped by either a good ear and some prayer or simple intervention. God puts people in your path when you follow Him that you can attend to. The story of the samaritan wasn't just a cute story, it was a template for the Christian character showing the fruits of the Spirit in a tangible way.


So your argument is without god, they face problems, and they should convert because it would make their life easier.



2) If someone is insulted because you are trying to help them, that help can just as easily be withdrawn to make the situation more palatable for the one in need. It has been my experience that as long as you are non-judgemental of the situation and LISTEN (this is one factor that MANY forget) most people are more than willing to tell their story (like Jesus did when they brought the naked lady who got caught in the very act of adultry). It is at the end of that story you can help formulate a plan to resolve the issues at hand or just ask if you can pray with them. Most people are not going to beat you over the head of they are in real need of help and you ask to intervein in prayer on their behalf.


And if they do not want to explain themselves to you, nor desire any help from you despite their problems, what then? Force your help on them?



3) Absolutely, it is the primary mission of ALL who follow Christ to take up His cross and tell others about the Gospel and let them make the choice of following after or not (I mean did Jesus when He called to His desciples say "follow me right now or I'll make you all chickens with three heads"). I truely think that God is pro-choice (I know there will be some Christians who are going to flame me for this) but if free will isn't pro-choice then what is? If Jesus in His benevolence didn't want to have us follow out of LOVE and not compulsion then why lay the foundation for others to follow and make salvation soooo easy IF we open our eyes to truth and "come see and taste of the waters of life"? It is our duty out of that love that compels us to tell others that "all have sinned and come short" (including me) that He made a way of escape (just like He always does in times of His judgement falling on humanity) and it truely includes all in my signature if you really read the scriptures with an open mind. What we must come to the conclusion of is that nothing in this life is going into eternity with us as we step off into the void. With that in mind why concentrate our efforts on things that are going to rust or melt or get put into a landfill? It has been said the only thing you can take into eternity is your children, IF you teach them to way to get where you're going and they follow in your footsteps.


I see. I do not seem to recall anywhere in the bible where Christ says the Christians duty is to both spread the gospel and convert people. I do recall Christ mentioning it was personal choice whether anyone came to the father through him, but that it was the only way they were going to get there.

So you feel that conversion is the primary purpose of any good Christian. Interesting... I am going to side with Atheism if that is the case.



posted on Feb, 25 2006 @ 01:32 AM
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Page 1 of this thread..Bob Lao Tse posted:

"That's really why religion and politics are both notoriously contentious issues-- it's easier to demonstrate that the other side is wrong than it is to demonstrate that one's own side is right, so that becomes the focus."


I chuckled to myself when reading this part of your post...Bob. You write well and great opinions the times I have read your posts.

To comment further on this posting of yours I quote here....the reason Religion and Politics are such contentions issues is because Politics is in fact a religion with undefined parameters to most people. The real issues and methods of politics are mostlly hidden from the public. Most of us never think of Politics as a religious belief system but as time goes on it becomes obvious the fervor and devoutness of the participants to this religion of Politics. Hard to argue with the point that there are zealots in politics.
By the way Bob..go back historically and find out what religions had the secret doctrine ...a doctrine for the public and another for those in power...what or how were these religions defined?? What name were they catalogued under??

It is intresting what you learn when you realize that inspite of our logic and reason...the beliefs of "reasonable men" ...that in certain arenas little has changed in thousands of years.

Keep up the great posts Bob,
Orangetom



posted on Feb, 25 2006 @ 08:01 AM
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Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
1) So your argument is without god, they face problems, and they should convert because it would make their life easier.

2) And if they do not want to explain themselves to you, nor desire any help from you despite their problems, what then? Force your help on them?

3) I see. I do not seem to recall anywhere in the bible where Christ says the Christians duty is to both spread the gospel and convert people. I do recall Christ mentioning it was personal choice whether anyone came to the father through him, but that it was the only way they were going to get there.

4) So you feel that conversion is the primary purpose of any good Christian. Interesting... I am going to side with Atheism if that is the case.


1) No I didn't say it was always going to be a rose garden, what I am saying is that without God life is much harder. It's that my burden is easy my yoke is light thing. Apparently we are not reading out of the same Bible as ref you #3 comment.

2) Where did I say I'd force them? I do seem to remember that if they need a shoulder to cry upon I'd offer mine though. If you think that is being forceful perhaps we also need to find you a good dictionary in addition to a good bible.

3) Are we reading the same bible, I can show you a great many places where it directly states that we are to spead the good news of the gospel. Didn't you argue earlier here or in another thread for your version of Christianity? I am beginning to wonder if in fact you are what you stated you were then and not just another person playing at it or maybe a fence walker.

4) See above



posted on Feb, 25 2006 @ 04:22 PM
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I refer you, 1gj, to Gnosticism. Gnosticism is drastically different from the Christian faiths which evolved from the orthodox or catholic church, it precedes the formation of the church by Constantine.

As such, I don't believe in hell. I am something of both a Gnostic as well as a Dualistic Theist. A mixture of my own philosophy as well as gnostic tradition, something moderately supported by Gnosticism.

If you would, kindly supply quotes where Christ said the primary responsibility was Conversion.



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 08:51 PM
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Christians, I am tired of hearing about them. I dont no of one christian that lives there life the way they believe. What do you call that? Hypocrite I say. I know someone will say thats just the people you met or know. Well I work in an international field where the employees are from all over the world. And located in the heart of the bible belt in the U.S.A., good old NC. And trust me these people are hypocrites.

Christianity is something the majority are born into and just follow and stay with there whole lives. Thinking they have become part of some big picture or plan from there GOD. But when reality strikes it is going to hurt. People this is it there is nothing else, live your life now and enjoy yourself. It a god created your soul than why cant you remember where you were before here. Or is this the starting place? You tell me?

Why ever even be here?, why ever be created?, why not just go strait to heaven. If God created you like him than you must be worthy, so then why be judged? Does your god have some bad complex with himself. I guess your god just wanted to be amused. Something to do so why not create the universe and put all your attention on one small group of beings, on one small planet out of millions. Funny dont you think?

Atheism hmmm The new American Webster Dictionary defines this word as the doctrine that there is no God.

I also looked the definition in several other dictionaries and all said it is the dibelief in the existence of God.

Hmmm the only God I know of is the christian and jewish one. Most other religions believe in some type of god but not God.
people have taken the word atheism out of text in saying atheists believe in nothing, well your wrong!
I am an atheist that believes there is some higher power or being out there. Not a god but something that made us humans begin this belief in gods in the first place.

The universe is huge, we dont even know everything that is on this planet so how can we come up with an explanation for everything. It is just crazy to assume that one god created everything

believe in the truth not the faith.




[edit on 26-2-2006 by ncbrian211]



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 10:34 PM
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I wonder what it would be like to live in nations with basically athiestic backgrounds...where the government is the highest authority.

Like Communist China. HOw about The Soviet Union in the olde days. I dont put much stock in their value on human life even today. To many hardliners still in power. Amazing that athiests never seem wont to paint this picture. You hardly ever see this view on postings or threads like this one.

Hypocrites come in all types ..Christian and non Christian. I even know a few devout athiests whe adhere to this behavior. Obviously I dont have much to do with them than necessary. I seldome hear this view posted here in many of these boards either. It is as if Christians have the monopoly on Hypocritical behavior. Amazing.

Watch this:

"Why ever even be here?, why ever be created?, why not just go strait to heaven. If God created you like him than you must be worthy, so then why be judged? Does your god have some bad complex with himself. I guess your god just wanted to be amused. Something to do so why not create the universe and put all your attention on one small group of beings, on one small planet out of millions. Funny dont you think? "

Always viewing from human standards and behaviors...nothing else exists.
And it is not funny. This is the epitome of human logic and reason..funny ..it is not. Observe the human disposability and expendability...by human reasoning. Why ever be created??? Its logical and reasonable.
Human history is replete with the fruits of this kind of behavior.
It is intresting that the one book which does not condone this type of behavior...human logic and reasoning dispises....openly. Why is this??


Amazing what one find out when one stops Amusing and starts Musing.
Nothing funny about it at all

Ever wonder why in olde pictures ..tintypes or studio pictures taken before the box cameras became popular ..why people seldome ever clowned around or smiled when getting their picture taken?? Think on this one ..seriously!! Dont Amuse....Muse!!!

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 10:59 PM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
I wonder what it would be like to live in nations with basically athiestic backgrounds...where the government is the highest authority.

Like Communist China. HOw about The Soviet Union in the olde days. I dont put much stock in their value on human life even today. To many hardliners still in power. Amazing that athiests never seem wont to paint this picture. You hardly ever see this view on postings or threads like this one.

Actually communism just has very strict regulations on religion.. whatever is 'for the good of the community'.. religion has been branded divisive so is oppressed and heavily controlled. I don't think there are any laws to say you aren't allowed to believe in god.. you just have to do it the sanctioned way.



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 12:24 AM
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the sanctioned way???

the sanctioned way ..is that seperation of church and state or is that like Hegel..the state is god?? and were back to non seperation!!

By the way..that seems to be the direction we are headed here in the states..just like Hegel.


Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 12:46 AM
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Who's winning?

*looks around in a confused manner*

Crap, I thought this was a football game, Athiests -v- Christians.
Clearly, the athiets would win aas they wouldn't have the HolySpirit to stop them from cheating.

Of course, if the Christian team is comprised of Southern Baptists, we would have a chance. We don't mind a little back sliding!



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 03:18 AM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
the sanctioned way???

You made this statement:

athiesm...the religion of men...

I wonder what it would be like to live in nations with basically athiestic backgrounds...where the government is the highest authority.

I corrected you.. whats the problem? Atheism is not a religion.. and communism is not atheistic. They like to keep religion in check as there is a fine line between 'belief' and political movements that could pose a threat or distabilise the ruling government. Also.. if communism was atheist.. they wouldn't have such restrictions on buddhism as that is indeed an athiest religion.. nor would they lock up or murder their holy leaders like they do.

the sanctioned way ..is that seperation of church and state or is that like Hegel..the state is god?? and were back to non seperation!!

By the way..that seems to be the direction we are headed here in the states..just like Hegel.

[Apologies in advance if I've misunderstood your point.]
How do you figure you have seperation of church and state in a country that was trying to get 'ID' and christian abstinence programes taught in public schools? The country where politicians cover the breasts of statues because they're offensive.. and where the president announces he has two way converations with god? Where many of your international policies revolve around religious convictions? I agree that 'the state is god' in your country.. but it's definently not lack of god that is creating the problem.



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 03:19 AM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne[/]
Clearly, the athiets would win aas they wouldn't have the HolySpirit to stop them from cheating.


I see.

So, you Christians need some outside force to make you not do things like cheat? I'm no atheist, but I got more respect for an atheist that doesn't do things like that because of their own will than for a Christian who has to have some spirit make them be good. Seriously, doesn't it say more about "morals" if you do something yourself instead of needing an outside force?

Looks to me like Christians use the amoral label on atheists because some atheists strangely show moral character without the threat of a bitch slap from God...I'd say that shows more moral character, but that's just me.



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 03:22 AM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Who's winning?

Christianity 33 & Atheists 3 , Christianity is kicking butt, statistically anyway.
I even rounded the Atheist number up, and the Christianity one down. Maybe the atheists are winning in some other stat?

www.odci.gov...

Christians 33.03% (of which Roman Catholics 17.33%, Protestants 5.8%, Orthodox 3.42%, Anglicans 1.23%), Muslims 20.12%, Hindus 13.34%, Buddhists 5.89%, Sikhs 0.39%, Jews 0.23%, other religions 12.61%, non-religious 12.03%, atheists 2.36% (2004 est.)



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 08:09 AM
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Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
If you would, kindly supply quotes where Christ said the primary responsibility was Conversion.


I submit that there are a bunch of scriptures.

Matt 10: the whole first half

Matthew 23:34 "Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town." (meaning they were observing the commission and were punished because of it notice the "will kill" future tense)

Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." (can't reach the world if no one is spreading the gospel)


Matt 28:19-20 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Mark 16:15 "He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation."

Col 1:28-29 "We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. To this end I labor, struggling with all his energy, which so powerfully works in me."


I could easily get more but you should see the point now.



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 08:16 AM
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Intresting posts:

Riley,
Yes I did post athiesm ...the religion of men. The word translates..a-without Theos-god. Without God. Particularly and especially the God of the Bible.

Athiesm does and particularly glorify men and mens values. The religion is actually Humanism. The worship of men and mens values. Man and mans values/thinking is the ulitimate reality in the universe. This is why reason and logic are so popular with many athiests and humanists.
And athiesm is definitely a religion just like humanism.
The ultimate expression of humanism/athiesm in this country is politics ..another religion with devout zealous adherents. The difference being that the rules and guidelines of the religion of politics are mostly hidden from the public and assumed..but behind the scenes something entirely different is going on from what is advertised. In otherwords you have a counterfit operating here.

The intresting thing about men and the history of men..particularly logical reasonable men..is that left to go their natural course they tend always twords debauchery and total depravity. You can see this in the Romans, The Greeks, and many mid eastern cultures also into Asia.

A intresting facet of this debauchery is the sex principle in religion. In many cultures the sex principle or the big G for god can only be realized through the expression of sex. This amounts to the concept that at the moment of Climax man is closest to God. This can be found in certain books if one reads carefully.
This is what is being taught in our schools and colleges in variations but always twords this same goal. To define ones self by ones sex principle.
We have children and young adults here who can barely make a living for themselvs but can have sex and children. To those who can think outside of what passes for human greatness this is called putting the cart before the horse. YOu can also tell this by how many empty heads there are on many postings without internal development..all emotions..and consumption levels. Amusement!!
By the way ..intrestingly enough this sex principle is also exactly what was taught for millineums in the pagan nations. You do know this dont you??? Take the sex away from certain variations of pagansim and you have zero. Nothing.
The other variation of this of course is " the state is God"..which is Hegel..which is communist governments. They cant stand the competition of ideas. They must have the controls of men. Back to humanism except in this one is only certain particular humans at the top of the pyramid. Wow...there is that pyramid again..Paganism. Reason and logic.

I submit to you Riley that the attempt here in this country and others in variations for culture is to return by logic and reason to what was before the Hebrew God ..before the Flood...the dominant system which has always been in this world as recorded by history. Paganism. The open worship of the sex principle. The greatness of men.

This is obvious when one observes movies and programming on televisions. Even in the advertisements.

As to not a lack of God causing the problem. I suggest one take a close look at what was happening in the last administration. Not at the press levels..but deeper where things were more controlled and hidden from the general public. It was quite pagan... but remember ..this is not religious??
It was human values being promoted here!!

The problem going on here is that the bulk of Americans dont want this system foisted off on them. They are not buying into it as fast as social engineers want to enforce it. This system of brainwashing can only survive in a cloistered enviornment like public schools and colleges where challanges can not arise and they can be controlled. This is why Government and the courts are the other cloistered tool to force this on a unawares public. YOu are back to feudalism/royalty, and the ancient systems. Including the religion used to support feudalism and Royalty.
The basic nature of the American people has always been a thorn in the side of these types of progressive thinkers. Americans are not that eager to change to the worlds poor standards. This system must be forced unawares on a people through their children and coming generations.

Truthseeka,
A christian who has to cheat to get things done or accomplished is not a christian as they are now operating outiside christian instructions. This is called a counterfit and is quite popular in history of nations and peoples if one looks closely.

Thanks to both you and Riley for your posts,
Orangetom



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 08:51 AM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
Intresting posts:

Riley,
Yes I did post athiesm ...the religion of men. The word translates..a-without Theos-god. Without God. Particularly and especially the God of the Bible.

The dictionary definition is a disbelief in god/s.. the translation is fairly irrelevent to the modern definition.

Athiesm does and particularly glorify men and mens values. The religion is actually Humanism. The worship of men and mens values.

Atheism is NOT humanism.. and humanism is more about respecting and nurturing humanity. So whats wrong with it? Jesus was a humanist. Atheism itself is merely a definition of disbelief without any moral commentary like religion.. mainly because it is NOT a religion. This does not mean atheists are not moral.. it just means that it is an unrelated issue.

You can see this in the Romans, The Greeks, and many mid eastern cultures also into Asia.

No religion or region is free from the corruption of man.. all power corrupts with or without religion [though religion can provide a powerful tool in it's progression].

This amounts to the concept that at the moment of Climax man is closest to God. This can be found in certain books if one reads carefully.

I think thats 'tantric'? I can't remember which culture it's most prevelent in. For the record the Catholic Church had 'sex houses' in the dark ages. Sex with a priest guarenteed salvation.

By the way ..intrestingly enough this sex principle is also exactly what was taught for millineums in the pagan nations. You do know this dont you???

Yeah I do. This is consistent in most religions whether it's out of sight or not.

Back to humanism except in this one is only certain particular humans at the top of the pyramid. Wow...there is that pyramid again..Paganism. Reason and logic.

Please spare me your moral soap box about the evils of paganism. One of my ancestors was burned as a witch at the hands of people doing 'gods duty'.. how is this NOT evil? How were the crusades and inquisitions; torchering and genocide somehow less evil than paganism? I'm also confused as to why you are labelling all paganism as sex religions. Most of them over the millenias have been very diverse and complex in how and what they worshiped. Some worshiped volcanoes and genuinely thought sacrificing would appease the angry gods.. how can you conclude that they were worshiping themselves or sex?

The basic nature of the American people has always been a thorn in the side of these types of progressive thinkers. Americans are not that eager to change to the worlds poor standards. This system must be forced unawares on a people through their children and coming generations.

I'm not sure if you are trying to defend or condemn christianity being snuck into schools. You also mentioned Clinton's evil pagen ways. I don't recall him invading any countries killing people. Murder is apparently more moral than sex.

[edit on 27-2-2006 by riley]



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 10:15 AM
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Lets see the truth, Christians take up 33% of the world hmmm....




Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Who's winning?


originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Christianity 33 & Atheists 3 , Christianity is kicking butt, statistically anyway.


www.odci.gov...

Christians 33.03% (of which Roman Catholics 17.33%, Protestants 5.8%, Orthodox 3.42%, Anglicans 1.23%), Muslims 20.12%, Hindus 13.34%, Buddhists 5.89%, Sikhs 0.39%, Jews 0.23%, other religions 12.61%, non-religious 12.03%, atheists 2.36% (2004 est.)


This does not make sense...
I researched this since this was posted and found several different websites agreeing to this. BUT I dont understand how they got these numbers.

CHINA pop. is 1306313812, 5 to 6% of this is other than christian, and a very low percentage is atheist.
If you do the math that leaves you with a minimum of 1250000000, yes thats 1.25 billion people. That is 19% of the world population. Right there that makes these websites wrong!
The world population stands at 6446131400 almost 6.5 billion people

Now lets see India: pop. is 1080264388
hindus are 80.5% of it that equals 864211510
so thats 13% of the world population.
so then now the rest of the world can not have any hindus!

Should I go on, you tell me do the math, those websites do not make sense.

China alone makes these stats wrong, when I started reading them it just made me shiver and ache knowing some christian probably wrote it.



[edit on 27-2-2006 by ncbrian211]

[edit on 27-2-2006 by ncbrian211]



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 11:46 AM
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These sites basically echo the numbers of the first site. I agree with you but as you say it seems most sites agree on the general figures.

www.religioustolerance.org...

www.infoplease.com...

www.bbc.co.uk...



[edit on 03 22 2005 by BlackGuardXIII]



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 12:14 PM
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truthseeka, I suggest you get a sense of humor. I was pretty sure that was TOTALLY apparent that the humor was slathered on it, but I suppose people will see what they want to see.



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 03:27 PM
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Originally posted by OneGodJesus

Matt 10: the whole first half

Matthew 23:34 "Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town." (meaning they were observing the commission and were punished because of it notice the "will kill" future tense)



Mm. Of course there will be people who are wise in the eyes of the Lord. This doesn't say convert, it says you will have believers. As for Matthew 10... it also mentions in several different sections that one should be peaceful if you are turned away. If they will not hear your words, let peace return unto you.

That means, do not flog people for being unbelievers with your rhetoric. If they so choose to be unbelievers, LEAVE THEM BE.



Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." (can't reach the world if no one is spreading the gospel)


Again, saying the Gospel will be preached does not insinuate anything about conversion, only that there WILL be believers. Hopefully converted of their own choice, and for the love of god, not out of fear of his wrath.



Matt 28:19-20 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."


Okay, this does in some way support the idea of conversion. However, I argue the stipulations I just made... that unwelcome pressure is anti-christian, and pushing others to believe is anti-christian.



Mark 16:15 "He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation."


Yes, by all means, preach the good news. Not that people are going to hell.



Col 1:28-29 "We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. To this end I labor, struggling with all his energy, which so powerfully works in me."


In order to teach, your student must be willing to learn. In that sense, you have not converted them, they were open to Christ always. Those who are not open to the message, you must LEAVE BE.




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