Atheism vs. christianty

Thanks for your post,


Definitions are very relevant in everything as it determines meanings. Many modern definitions from what I have been able to determine make things unclear. Often to understand a concept I have gone to the etymology of a word. Modern definitions are used for wiggle room and not always to make a idea clear.

I have to disagree with you about Jesus nurturing humanity. If this were so his Hebrew bretheren would not have plotted to kill him and get the Romans to carry this out for them. This is obvious. If Jesus were nurturing humanity he would have been up on the groves and high places like much of the Hebrew leadership...the bunny clubs of the day.


Oh by the way ..I agree with you about the catholic sex houses stocked with prostitutes particularly for servicing the priesthood. I was quite taken back when I first read of this in a history book. Right there in Rome. I was not converted when I first read of this history and I was still shocked. This is clear evidence that the Catholic Church is not Christian. There is no such instruction for the priesthood or Church to carry on in this manner. If they did this they were operating outside the instructions for the manner in which a church is to operate. They want to appear to be Christain but they operate outside the instructions for a New Testament Church. This is called a counterfit.

As to the inquesition and crusades..I have posted this before in earlier posts. just like the buisness above this paragraph..there is no such instructions for a New Testament Church to operate in the manner of a inquesition or a crusade..for God. This meaning again that they are operating outside of the instructions for a New Testament Church and they have in like manner as the Hebrews ...left Gods Word...disobedient. They are not Gods Church but disobedient or serving another god than the one they claim.

OH and yes ..I know about the volcanos..my fathers side of the family are Hawaiians. Intresting the stories the olde folks still tell.

As to the worship of the sex principle...sex and sexuality is what we see on the surface. In most pagan systems it is the variations of the worship of life..which brings about the sex principle as a intregal part of the worship ceremony. Whether moon worship or sun worship..it is still there. Some would call this Panthiesm..nature worship. Just another variation.
The worship of life...the life principal. One can read variations of this in books like "Morals and Dogma" by Albert Pike...begining on page one and continuing to the end. That is ...if you can even find a copy of this book.

As to the schools. I am condeming them. So many in our pubic schools know more about sex and sexuality than they do about making or earning a living. I think we have so much backwards here. They know enough to celebrate life and the life principal and be good consumers..just not enought to keep it up..past thier consumption levels. Not all of them mind you but this is noticable among many. This accelerated rapidly under the Clinton Administration...and the choices they put in public offices. This became quite alarming among many Americans when they could see what was happening. However this continues today..even with this administration. It is as if the education system works seperately of who or what is in office. It seems to be a office/power unto itself.

Thanks again for your post,
Orangetom

Orangetom: I think you have somehow mistaken our school system as ever having had the intention of TEACHING children.

I bring this book up time and time again in a VARIETY of different situations, but it applies to so much of how we are taught to think and how we learn to understand...

"Ishamael" by Daniel Quinn explores the philosophy of faith and comes from a more rational point of view. The Author uses a plot device that seems rather silly at first, but I urge you to read on past your own incredulity... because the plot device itself works into the story as well as makes you reconsider things by the time you put the book down.

"My Ishamael" By Daniel Quinn... this book deals heavily in how we are taught to think, how we are indoctrinated in the school system, and WHY we are indoctrinated into the method of thinking we are taught. This is a seperate book, it is the sequel to the first book I have mentioned.

and... here is a very intriguing website which deals with the breakdown of the Bicameral Mind... which again, provides provocative and intriguing angles on our understanding of God and Self.

The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind

I urge people, go and spend the money to pick up copies of the books I've mentioned. These books are significant worldview changers, and damn good reads to boot.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Definitions are very relevant in everything as it determines meanings. Many modern definitions from what I have been able to determine make things unclear.

I am an "I don't believe in a creator god or gods" kind of atheist.

I have to disagree with you about Jesus nurturing humanity. If this were so his Hebrew bretheren would not have plotted to kill him and get the Romans to carry this out for them. This is obvious. If Jesus were nurturing humanity he would have been up on the groves and high places like much of the Hebrew leadership...the bunny clubs of the day.

He preached love, forgiveness and humility.. he would've been a political threat. Also.. putting himself into a more powerful position would have isolated him from his followers [power corrupts].

Oh by the way ..I agree with you about the catholic sex houses stocked with prostitutes particularly for servicing the priesthood. I was quite taken back when I first read of this in a history book.

Actually I think it was not unlike a noble's right to new brides.. it wasn't just prositutes.

This is clear evidence that the Catholic Church is not Christian. There is no such instruction for the priesthood or Church to carry on in this manner. If they did this they were operating outside the instructions for the manner in which a church is to operate.

It's hard to say what was legal and not.. if the pope thought something was a good idea it would become part of the instruction. Much like if a woman was found guilty of infanticide she'd get put into a hesham sack with ten black snakes and thrown in water.

As to the inquesition and crusades..I have posted this before in earlier posts. just like the buisness above this paragraph..there is no such instructions for a New Testament Church to operate in the manner of a inquesition or a crusade..for God. This meaning again that they are operating outside of the instructions for a New Testament Church and they have in like manner as the Hebrews ...left Gods Word...disobedient. They are not Gods Church but disobedient or serving another god than the one they claim.

"Spread the word" can be interprited in many ways.. the crusades are quite probably why christianty survived and became as powerful as it is.. most denominations [espcially protestants] wouldn't have ever come into being if it weren't for the Catholic Church. What is 'true christianity' is also open to individual interpritation.

OH and yes ..I know about the volcanos..my fathers side of the family are Hawaiians. Intresting the stories the olde folks still tell.

Do many of the stories involve sex?

As to the worship of the sex principle...sex and sexuality is what we see on the surface. In most pagan systems it is the variations of the worship of life..which brings about the sex principle as a intregal part of the worship ceremony. Whether moon worship or sun worship..it is still there. Some would call this Panthiesm..nature worship. Just another variation.

I still don't know how you've concluded that paganism revolves around sex. Earth, air, fire, water, day, night.. wild orgies? Life is created by sex.. ommiting i completely would also make no sense. Sex is not dirty of evil. I see many people carrying on about [concentual] sex rituals in various religions yet they are completley unfased with the amount of sadism, blood sacrificing and death that has occured throughout history.. as though sex is the ultimate evil. These priorities seem immoral to me.. kind of like when sex scenes get cencored on TV yet the news has no problems running pics of REAL people dieing brutal and bloody deaths.

As to the schools. I am condeming them. So many in our pubic schools know more about sex and sexuality than they do about making or earning a living. I think we have so much backwards here. They know enough to celebrate life and the life principal and be good consumers..just not enought to keep it up..past thier consumption levels. Not all of them mind you but this is noticable among many.

They are forced into the responsibilty of teaching about sex, sexuality and 'safer sex' because the media is saturated with it and someone has to deal with the fallout.. otherwise parents would complain about all the unwanted pregnancies and terminal STDs. Doomed if they do or don't.

This accelerated rapidly under the Clinton Administration...and the choices they put in public offices. This became quite alarming among many Americans when they could see what was happening. However this continues today..even with this administration.

True.. teen pregnancy has apparently gone up under the 'absintence only' programs. I'm unsure how Clinton handled things but I think he would've had more sense than to pretend that teens could be told "Don't".

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
1) Mm. Of course there will be people who are wise in the eyes of the Lord. This doesn't say convert, it says you will have believers. As for Matthew 10... it also mentions in several different sections that one should be peaceful if you are turned away. If they will not hear your words, let peace return unto you.

2) That means, do not flog people for being unbelievers with your rhetoric. If they so choose to be unbelievers, LEAVE THEM BE.

3) Again, saying the Gospel will be preached does not insinuate anything about conversion, only that there WILL be believers. Hopefully converted of their own choice, and for the love of god, not out of fear of his wrath.

4) Okay, this does in some way support the idea of conversion. However, I argue the stipulations I just made... that unwelcome pressure is anti-christian, and pushing others to believe is anti-christian.

5) Yes, by all means, preach the good news. Not that people are going to hell.

Col 1:28-29 "We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. To this end I labor, struggling with all his energy, which so powerfully works in me."

6) In order to teach, your student must be willing to learn. In that sense, you have not converted them, they were open to Christ always. Those who are not open to the message, you must LEAVE BE.

1) By using the word convert you are making the assumption that a Christian pounding them in the head with a bible. I in no way said anything of the sort. Freewill is ever present and is completely covered in the Word. However, I think that it is completely logical that is you had no preachers or people telling others you would have no converts, no? It is illogical to assume that an osmotic effect from the Bible in a book store.

2) 2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

3) And how would you expect to get believers unless someone showed them?

4) Respectfully, I think I have shown that you are wrong.

5) The good news is not just that Christ died. Too many Christians want to keep Him on the cross ever dying. He beat death and lives. Not only that but has shown us the way to beat it too. Repent (turn away from your sin and tell God you're sorry=death to self and sin), just as Jesus was buried you too must be buried (spiritually) to have it die with the old man, you must have that sin washed away (there is only one way to do this, emmersion baptism and specifically in one name Jesus "for there is none other name under heaven whereby men must be saved"), and you need to raise again as Jesus did (a spiritual rebirth), when a newborn is born they cry out and you will too with another tongue as the spirit gives utterance.


6) Are you serious?

On a final thought in closing I submit this scripture and take it how you will:
2 Peter 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

Call me a dumb ass is you will but on the other hand if it saves you as it did the prophet from be destroyed then so be it.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But people who aren't Christians can't understand these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them because only those who have the Spirit can understand what the Spirit means.

1 Corinthians 1:
18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord

Seems pretty obviouos that the wisdom and puffed up imaginations of some will lead them to their destruction,no?

Crystal Sword..No I have not mistaken our school systems as intending to teach children. Not at all. This may have been true prior to the 1960s or so. I dont think so today...not much at all. What they intend to do is program a bunch of kids to mostly stay where they are. Just enough to function in a role but not go to far from it. Not to think outside the authorized blocks. Yet amazingly some do in fact manage to do this. I think that these gifted children are able to analyze outside the normal programing. They have somehow escaped the control mechanism. Often these children who excape the regimen are marked for special programs. In otherwords they are specially identified...marked.
My first clue about this was years ago when I was dating a older woman who loved to go frequent flea markets and yard sales. We found ourselves in a flea market stall with lots of books. The book I picked up out of a series like a set of encyclopedias were called Mcguffey Readers. This was like a 5th or 6th grade reading level. I think it was printed about the years 1890 or so. I was astonished. This is like college level reading today. Freshman level. What happened???
I quizzed the old man across the street from me about this. He is in his 80s and still going strong for his age. He was the first person to ever tell me that people about a hundred years ago who could read and knew about their language ...were diciplined in thier language..had a vocabulary of some 4000 to 4500 words..and knew what they meant..the limits of them..definitions...what they meant and didnt mean. He further elaborated that today ..most people even college graduates have a vocabulary of some 1000 to 1200 words and most of them 4 letter words.
Now I will admit Crystal Sword...that at the time this took me quite by surprise as up to then I had no reason even to consider this line of tact...thinking. I have since then experienced numerous opportunities to have this reinforced. Now mind you everyone you meet does not fall into this arena..but it is noticable when one looks around.
Many of us our reading and thinking levels are almost histronic and at a newspaper level or lower.
Education is not just teaching you things/facts..it is also teaching you a logical reasonable ..sensible manner of putting these things or facts into a coherent pattern so that you can extract something useful out of these facts for your purposes...your goals. It is teaching you how to think....not just experience..emotionally. Understand what I am alluding to Crystal Sword.

Along the same pattern this same woman had a son who was taking Latin in high school. He knew that I did not celebrate Christmas. During the course of his Latin class he learned about the Roman holiday called Saturnalia.
He was trying to explain to me that the Romans had a holiday corresponding to the time Christians celebrate Christmas. Right away I blurted out Saturnalia. He seemed astonished that someone else not taking Latin would know this.
I just happened to know this because I have read several books on the origins of many of our holy days ...including Alexander Hislops "The Two Babylons" which I consider to be a excellent work on this type of subject.
This is just a area which intrests me along with historical events and facts.
Occasionally you do find that these are not isolated events but connected along the lines of history...not necessarily by time per se...they still apply today..to how we think or dont think.
This is one area I dont think they teach much about in school.
Oh by the way Crystal Sword..thanks for that site on bicameral thinking. I have bookmarked it for later reading when more time allows. Thanks again.


Riley,
Yes I know what kind of athiest you are...no problem there.


Yes Jesus did preach love, humility, and forgiveness. I agree..The woman caught in adultery is textbook about this love , forgiveness, and humility. He taught much more however which is often overlooked..ironically by many preachers. He did not put himself in a more powerful position...the power was always His. His problem or threat was never with Rome..this is obvious from the begining when he entered Jerusalem ..he went not to the Romans but His Fathers House. The problem was that the Hebrew leadership had hijacked His Fathers Word and substituted another doctrine for what they were supposed to be doing. They had counterfitted. Jesus always called them on it ..to show they were in error..as had so many prophets who came before Him. This is why they hated him...and plotted to kill him. Just as He is hated today..as is His Fathers Word. Nothing new here at all. The power was always His.

As to what is legal or not..the Pope is not the authority on that. This priesthhood and sex houses buisness and then the crusades clears this up in simplicity.
As to the crusades surviving so long because of the crusades..I disagree...the church spreading through Europe was not along the catholic line. It spread along the byzantine areas up through Constantinople and the what became the Eastern Orthadox areas..to survive also in the high alps..in Eastern Europe and on through the mountains of France and among different groups not affilliated with Rome. This is known history of the Church.
The crusades were a miserable flop.
One thing is definitely known by Believers...the Faith is not spread by the physical Sword...ever. This knowlege..alone clears up what I have posted about the popes and rome..in previous postings. Not Christian. I dont have to know only that. All I have to do is see the via..in rome leading up to the Vatican the via of collums and then in the Circle..the Oblelisk of Jupiter.

The stories from my fathers side about the volcanos ...most of them do not involve sex...or sexuality ..the involve the volcanos ..tradegy and human sacrafice to appease the goddess Pele.

I must make haste now ..to get some things done but before I go ..I agree with you about so much sex in the media..also in selling junk to our kids and of course us adults. I dont agree with this either and I think it is taking advantage of the lack of sophistication of many peoples...in otherwords their ignorance about many things. It is immoral to me.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Orange: You should also pick up the two books I mentioned, excellent literature with mind-expanding material.

OneGodJesus: I could respond to everything you have said... but I will instead tell you that your views are the reason people hate christians. You can take that opinion or you can leave it, but you aren't likely to help many people in your life if you feel that forcing your belief on them is the will of god.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Orange: You should also pick up the two books I mentioned, excellent literature with mind-expanding material.

OneGodJesus: I could respond to everything you have said... but I will instead tell you that your views are the reason people hate christians. You can take that opinion or you can leave it, but you aren't likely to help many people in your life if you feel that forcing your belief on them is the will of god.

The people who I have helped and the ones who have "converted" would disagree. My views are irrelevant in light of what the Word says Crystal. If you don't have that down and call yourself a "Christian" you deceive yourself. I have said before and will say it again, PEOPLE ARE LAZY AND DO NOT READ FOR THEMSELVES, BUT ONLY GO ON WHAT OTHERS SAY.

So do yourself a favor and use that "high intelligence" that almost everyone proclaims to have in these forums and read for yourself with an open mind and heart. You may just end up smarter in the process (oh my wouldn't that be a shame...

Since this thread is still going on, I figured I'd bring this in here.

Why is the most common religious debate atheism vs. Christianity? This is a false dilemma... there are lots of other choices, and frankly the fact that they don't involve themselves in these petty squabbles very often increases their credibility to some degree.

What about Judaism, Taoism, Islam, Hindu, Shintoism, Paganism, Ba'Hai, Discordianism, agnosticism, Gnosticism, or Satanism? What makes you so sure that there is either no god or one that precisely resembles that posited by the Christians?

The Christian faith is one of the most exoteric I have ever seen; it proclaims to have no mystery beyond the very thinnest trappings of Jewish mysticism. The Bible is a thorough and complete sourcebook for all things Christian. Christianity, therefore, maintains that the cosmology it supports is entirely literal-- there is a physical Heaven somewhere, and a physical Hell, and a big angry bearded bastard up in the sky just waiting to pin you in the arse with a lightning bolt. I don't understand what in this makes for an effective or even popular religion; metaphysics barely even come into Christianity any more!

How can one hope to adhere to a worldview that is so patently false? It is quite clear that the events in the Bible did not take place as they are described. However, Christianity is the only religion that proclaims such literalness on the part of its holy book; no other faith will tell you that the earth really was created in six days, six thousand years ago, or that all life on it was destroyed in a deluge brought about by our (kind and merciful?) father.

So how is it that Christianity gets #2 billing in all of these debates? What is it about this particular faith that makes its followers so sure of themselves, even though the world in which they believe is a cheap mockery of true reality? And why doesn't anybody pay attention to Christian Gnosticism, or one of the other branches of the faith with some real metaphysical fiber? Instead, the only debate I see is "there is a big bearded fellow in the sky" or "everything is reducible to causality, and there is no meaning anywhere"... nobody seems interested in exploring other avenues of eventuality, despite the overwhelming probability that neither of these two are entirely true.

I'm just hoping for an explanation, either from a Christian or from an atheist. Neither one has managed to impress me thus far.


[edit on 1-3-2006 by The Parallelogram]

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
So do yourself a favor and use that "high intelligence" that almost everyone proclaims to have in these forums and read for yourself with an open mind and heart. You may just end up smarter in the process (oh my wouldn't that be a shame...

I have a copy of the KJV of the bible. I also have a copy of the Book of Mormon. I spend leisure time learning of religions both old and new, and your comment is an underhanded way of saying you think that nobody who believes as you do actually reads.

You are both insulting, rude, and conceited. I do not see any reason that anyone should listen to you except the mentally and morally weak people which you may have converted. And that's my take on it.

I am a Theologian by hobby if not by trade, so insinuating that I don't bother to read the bible is about as sure a kick in the face as anything. So I will just repeat what I said before, you are the EXACT reason why people on these forums and elsewhere hate christianity, and that does ME a disservice as a christian. It makes my job harder.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
So do yourself a favor and use that "high intelligence" that almost everyone proclaims to have in these forums and read for yourself with an open mind and heart. You may just end up smarter in the process (oh my wouldn't that be a shame...

I have a copy of the KJV of the bible. I also have a copy of the Book of Mormon. I spend leisure time learning of religions both old and new, and your comment is an underhanded way of saying you think that nobody who believes as you do actually reads.

You are both insulting, rude, and conceited. I do not see any reason that anyone should listen to you except the mentally and morally weak people which you may have converted. And that's my take on it.

I am a Theologian by hobby if not by trade, so insinuating that I don't bother to read the bible is about as sure a kick in the face as anything. So I will just repeat what I said before, you are the EXACT reason why people on these forums and elsewhere hate christianity, and that does ME a disservice as a christian. It makes my job harder.

Since we are apparently "taking the gloves off". I do not consider you a "christian" at all. That would imply a "follower of christ" which you clearly are not. As to the "theologian" part...anyone can be a theologian, all it means is a thinker on God. Not rocket science there pal.

The reason I do not think you are a christian is because you do not obey the gospel. Jesus said "if you love me you will OBEY". I don't see a lot of obeying in your philosophy. What I do see is a lot of taking what others have written about and cut and pasting them into these forums and calling them your own and also those links are empty words and dead mans bones filled with deception from people who proclaim to not believe in God in the first place, (and these are the founders of your version of Christianity...hmmm). What I do on the other hand is take a look at the Word directly and quote it so everyone can see what it says, not adding my "take on it" unless it is to point out something important, I have no need to interpret its meaning, people can read if pointed in the right direction. If you want to get into, what I think your take is, has been stated previously "a mish-mash of many things" but mostly not "Christian" by my definition, so it does indeed make ME sick to see you flapping your proverbial gums about how you label yourself as such. This is me dusting my shoes off with you as testemony that you were told the correct way. I'm done with debating with you about why you think I am everything that is wrong with Christianity.

Tell that to Paul. Was he not more radical than I? Did he not turn Rome on its ear? I have done nothing so glorious as that. I contend it is the wrong headed misleading watered down "Christianity" of today that is in error. I contend that "wide is the way and many there be that follow it and narrow is the path and few there be that find it" You, my nemesis, are solidly on the broad way, enjoy the trip, it will be the only fun you're going to have in this life or the next.




[edit on 1/3/06 by OneGodJesus]

Originally posted by The Parallelogram

So how is it that Christianity gets #2 billing in all of these debates? What is it about this particular faith that makes its followers so sure of themselves, even though the world in which they believe is a cheap mockery of true reality?

-snip-

I'm just hoping for an explanation, either from a Christian or from an atheist. Neither one has managed to impress me thus far.

Well, I'm an agnostic, but I can give an answer to your question.

Christianity lets you off the hook. You get forgiven. There is no spiritial retribution or punishment after you die, provided you've jumped through the proper hoops (ie: followed the rules, accepted the dogma, professed delusional belief, etc...).

In what other religion does another human being theoretically have the power to wipe your slate clean on behalf of "God"? Buy your way to Heaven if you want. As might be expected given human nature, at the very bottom of it is human selfishness and the desire, conscious or unconscious, to avoid the possible consequences of the moraly questionable things done in life.

Anyway, I think that is why it's so popular. I think many Christians don't actually think very deeply about what they profess to believe. I think many of them operate in a "just in case it's true" mode, not really understanding the origins of the myths they think they are worshiping, just going along with the crowd.

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
Since we are apparently "taking the gloves off". I do not consider you a "christian" at all. That would imply a "follower of christ" which you clearly are not. As to the "theologian" part...anyone can be a theologian, all it means is a thinker on God. Not rocket science there pal.
[edit on 1/3/06 by OneGodJesus]

And this whole post is rife with claims that only have the basis of "I SAID SO".

You seem to think you speak directly for god, you presumptuous fool.

'Anyway, I think that is why it's so popular. I think many Christians don't actually think very deeply about what they profess to believe. I think many of them operate in a "just in case it's true" mode, not really understanding the origins of the myths they think they are worshiping, just going along with the crowd. ' ambient sound

I agree, it is herd mentality, go with the crowd, don't make waves, don't ask questions, just follow along. It really must be much easier.... I would imagine. I have met many who are what I would call 'turn or burn' type believers, they are going along just in case.
The nail that sticks out gets pounded down. It is my experience that when one does ask the questions, the answers aren't what I would have hoped. I have had to find my own answers, however wrong they may be. At least I can say I never just accepted what I was taught, so if I am wrong I won't be upset.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
Since we are apparently "taking the gloves off". I do not consider you a "christian" at all. That would imply a "follower of christ" which you clearly are not. As to the "theologian" part...anyone can be a theologian, all it means is a thinker on God. Not rocket science there pal.
[edit on 1/3/06 by OneGodJesus]

And this whole post is rife with claims that only have the basis of "I SAID SO".

You seem to think you speak directly for god, you presumptuous fool.

Another rocket science question here. Have you actually hear the audible voice of God? Since you obviously have no scripture to back up what you say then how do you suppose that the truth of things is delivered? I know osmosis! :bnghd: Who is the fool now?

I'd rather be labeled a presumptuous fool than a shallow minded, confused about what I believe (or at least how to present it), run with the pack (on its way to the nether and separated from the one true God: Jesus), rediculous, ignorant psuedo-christian.

What have you got? You have a hodgepodge, rebellious , I'll do my own thing belief system "loosely" based on a Christianity (your words here). In my estimate something is either on or off, right or wrong and an answer can always be found with a willing open heart, lack of pride or ego, hard work using prayer, fasting and reading the Bible. If you flick the switch the light comes on or it doesn't. In your case no one can flick the switch because no one is home...because of your closed mindedness regarding direct scriptural answers to the challenges you posted previously. Thus I wiped my feet in testemony against you before God.

you have a very intresting post ..concerning exoteric nature in Christianity.
I am musing on it between my labors around the house.
Also intresting is the response of some of the others including the one God Jesus.
I will muse on this more and post later.

Thanks to all for thier input,
Orangetom

Originally posted by Ambient Sound

Christianity lets you off the hook. You get forgiven. There is no spiritial retribution or punishment after you die, provided you've jumped through the proper hoops (ie: followed the rules, accepted the dogma, professed delusional belief, etc...).

This is a really good point, Ambient. Christianity certainly does offer an attractive package of benefits... it also interests me how the faith makes such effective use of guilt, against prospective converts as much as those that already believe. With this offer of a clean slate only a few dogmatic hoop-jumpings away, many Christians are more than happy to mock or even persecute others for declining this seemingly simple offer.

Anyway, I think that is why it's so popular. I think many Christians don't actually think very deeply about what they profess to believe. I think many of them operate in a "just in case it's true" mode, not really understanding the origins of the myths they think they are worshiping, just going along with the crowd.

I certainly agree with this as well... Christianity is like a security camera. Whether or not there is actually somebody watching on the other end, a majority of people will act differently when they think they're being watched. This, as you say above, is reducible to self-interest, like most human motives.

It shocks me, though, how many people are willing to accept a worldview with such vast implications on nothing more than the word of their parents and an old man in some silly robes. It seems to me a religion for the modern masses, who appreciate cheap, fast, and simple more than profound, beautiful, or true.

Originally posted by The Parallelogram
1) This is a really good point, Ambient. Christianity certainly does offer an attractive package of benefits... it also interests me how the faith makes such effective use of guilt, against prospective converts as much as those that already believe. With this offer of a clean slate only a few dogmatic hoop-jumpings away, many Christians are more than happy to mock or even persecute others for declining this seemingly simple offer.

2) I certainly agree with this as well... Christianity is like a security camera. Whether or not there is actually somebody watching on the other end, a majority of people will act differently when they think they're being watched. This, as you say above, is reducible to self-interest, like most human motives.

3) It shocks me, though, how many people are willing to accept a worldview with such vast implications on nothing more than the word of their parents and an old man in some silly robes. It seems to me a religion for the modern masses, who appreciate cheap, fast, and simple more than profound, beautiful, or true.

1) How in the world can you possibly come to that conclusion? You have never met this ambient sound yet you are already subscribing to his thought pattern and beliefs in the way others should conduct themselves. How is this any different that what we as followers of Christ do? You tell me, who is the more foolish the fool or the fool who follows him?

2) Why should it not be. Human nature if left to its own natural motivations will invariably lead to decadence and deprivation. You need only look to the jungles of Africa and the natives that have come out into the modern age to tell the stories of life inside the tribes. They are vicous towards one another, tribe to tribe. It may have started as competition in food or ariable land etc, but ended in headhunting and murder. They had zero contact with "organized" religion, yet the are 100% carnally minded and ended where they were murdering each other. So if they had a system that influenced the behavior to "act right" is that so bad of a thing?

3) Seems as if you have bought into something that is cheap, fast, and simple, it is called humanism.

[edit on 2/3/06 by OneGodJesus]

Originally posted by OneGodJesus

Originally posted by The Parallelogram
1) This is a really good point, Ambient. Christianity certainly does offer an attractive package of benefits... it also interests me how the faith makes such effective use of guilt, against prospective converts as much as those that already believe. With this offer of a clean slate only a few dogmatic hoop-jumpings away, many Christians are more than happy to mock or even persecute others for declining this seemingly simple offer.

2) I certainly agree with this as well... Christianity is like a security camera. Whether or not there is actually somebody watching on the other end, a majority of people will act differently when they think they're being watched. This, as you say above, is reducible to self-interest, like most human motives.

3) It shocks me, though, how many people are willing to accept a worldview with such vast implications on nothing more than the word of their parents and an old man in some silly robes. It seems to me a religion for the modern masses, who appreciate cheap, fast, and simple more than profound, beautiful, or true.

1) How in the world can you possibly come to that conclusion? You have never met this ambient sound yet you are already subscribing to his thought pattern and beliefs in the way others should conduct themselves. How is this any different that what we as followers of Christ do? You tell me, who is the more foolish the fool or the fool who follows him?

2) Why should it not be. Human nature if left to its own natural motivations will invariably lead to decadence and deprivation. You need only look to the jungles of Africa and the natives that have come out into the modern age to tell the stories of life inside the tribes. They are vicous towards one another, tribe to tribe. It may have started as competition in food or ariable land etc, but ended in headhunting and murder. They had zero contact with "organized" religion, yet the are 100% carnally minded and ended where they were murdering each other. So if they had a system that influenced the behavior to "act right" is that so bad of a thing?

3) Seems as if you have bought into something that is cheap, fast, and simple, it is called humanism.

[edit on 2/3/06 by OneGodJesus]

1) No, that's not true at all, I was agreeing with him.
2) That's ridiculous. Are you saying that humans need to be yoked with the fear of a nonexistant deity? that we are incapable of ruling ourselves? Or is it just Africans you think are inferior? There's a word for that.
3) Nope, not true either. I'm an agnostic, who enjoys researching, questioning, and learning from religious and esoteric traditions of all sorts. I'm only defaming Christianity here because you're doing the same to all other faiths, and I want to make it clear to you that yours is neither the first, the greatest, or the apotheosis of religious traditions.

I would advise you to stop attributing beliefs to others without their input. Saying all non-Christians are ignorant and all Africans are savages is about as unfounded and impersonable as one could hope to be.

very intresting posts on here.


Parallelogram,
What makes me so sure of Christianity is history. The history written by men and continuing to be written by men for men. It is obvious what is missing from it ...more and more as time goes by and the pattern in which it is written. The Glorification of men and mens values.Human values.
Mostly this is written from the perspective that all religions are the same religion. I dont agree with this dogma and know from whence it comes.
It is the pattern of this history which is so telling. Christians are told to observe the pattern of things occuring or happening around them. They can be very indicative of the source of many events. Yet many Christians are very unawares of this kind of thinking ..very ignorant even.

As to Christianity being exoteric vs esoteric. I agree..there is nothing hidden in Christianity..though I would debate with you about Jewish Mysticism because it is obvious the Hebrews of olde got caught up in things and patterns for which they were clearly told not to do or observe. This meaning they went after other gods and thier abominations...exactly what many Christians are doing today. The Christians are ,many of them, repeating the pattern of operation which befell the Hebrews in Olde Testament times. Falling away. This meaning they were joining the way of all religions are the same religion when they were told specifically not to do or be like the nations surrounding them.
This is a very stark pattern of operation once one becomes aware of it and what it means. I will admit..most Christians today do not have a clue. There is much ignorance about many things Christian especially among Christians. Astonishing but true. Also many of the preachers today are guilty in this ignorance just as were the Hebrew leadership of olde testament times.
Also the stark difference in many of those other religions of which you post is that there are levels of indoctrination or initiation ...you dont learn certain things until you make the grade or are promoted to new degrees or levels. There are often secrets even from other members of the group.
This is not so in Christianity..anything that claims so is not Christian but a counterfit. Christians can even be difficult to get them to shut up at times.They will tell you anything you want to know. It is not secret or done in a corner.
One more thing...Christianity is not advanced or promoted by the sword. This is a very sore point by many unbelievers as well as believers. Believers are often so dumb they dont know how to answer or respond to certain charges thusly. Any group which promotes Christian conversion by the sword is not Christian but a counterfit masquerading as Christian as they have no such instructions for a New Testament church to operate thusly.

One more thing Parallelogram...historically Christians are a sect..meaning seperated from. As I recall the pattern is to come out from amongst them and be ye seperate. This was also the pattern of operation of the Hebrews of the Olde Tesatment. They were not to be like the nations surrounding them. They were in fact a nation ..a small nation.. a minority..surrounded by the wildlife of this world. This is very plain to see when one reads history. The Hebrews were a small nation surrounded by other nations which did not like them. This is the same with Christians today..though most Christians seem to be so dumb today they cannot grasp this concept.

I will not waste your time or mind debating such silly causes as the created in 6 days arguments ..primarily because we as believers or unbelievers have nothing to do with it obviously and cannot do anything about it..period. We are not the controllers of this debate...since we were obviously not around when it was done.

What the debate does to is govern to whom we credit with our allegances. This is the purpose of this kind of debate...I know to whom I credit my allegance.

I also dont waste my time throwing out alot of bible verses..among unbelievers..and even many believers. Unbelievers becasue they are not intrested in it...and believers because most of them have stock phrases shoveled out by many preachers and dont check up on them.

As to Christian Gnosticism...I dont go along with this position because I know enough history to understand that Gnosticism and the Gnostic pattern is to glorify men and mens traditions by logic and reason..not by Faith. This now enters into occult arenas...under the cover of Gnosticism. Another word for this is Sophisim..or the wisdom religions. Also the Religions of the East. I dont travel to the East but I know what it means...historically. Most Christians havent a clue.

One more thing Parallelogram...and this is a concept even most Christians dont believe. I actually get more flack from my brother and sister Chrisitians than I do from non believers about this.

The God I know ...operates in what is called Soverignty. This is a important historical word as it turns up over and over in Feudal system and never explained next to the importance of it.

I know a Soverign God..not a subject God. No amount of putting money in the box, prayer, or other concepts like "I deserve, I am rightious, etc etc..will save me from hell and damnation. Why is this...because to a Soverign God...as a Christian..I deserve Hell and Damnation and The God I know would be perfectly just and rightious in sending me there. I deserve nothing better than Hell and Damnation.
Going to Heaven or Hell is totally under the Soverignt of God ..not me or anyone else. Furthermore..Parallelogram..I cannot send anyone else to Hell or Heaven. I dont save anyone...ever. Not my job.
I get more flack from Christians with this than I do from others. Many of my brother and sister Christians have some kind of concept that they are going to save someone...not going to happen. They dont save or lose anyone ..ever.
Any Christian who knows Christian doctrine knows that if Hell is merited it is about them particularly. If they are saved it is not by anything that they do ..but by the will of Our God. Most Christians today do not know a Soverign God..but a subject god...just as did the Hebrews of the Olde Testament...who made a change ..in the instruction given to them by Moses...and did this secretly ..prively...

You dont have to buy into any of this ..I merely point this out ...about what passes for Christianity so often today. I dont expect you to believe this.

By the way ...Parallelogram..that is what it means to be a "Believer"
It means to "be...living" not just to be breathing and our hearts
pumping. It means to be living ..not in ourselves.
This is how one tells a believer from a non believer...for what do they
live. Knowlegable believers can see this in others quickly.

I can see this clearly in the postings in here.

Thanks for your post.




The One God Jesus,

You do not ever let others drag you into the morass or dogma they are in. You seperate yourself from them if you do not approve of the way in which they express themselves. When you let them do this to you they laugh at your lack of dicipline..or knowlege ..they delight in it. History is replete with this.

I have to agree with Crystal Sword...on this ...it is why many hate Christianity ..though it is not the only reason nor the number one reason.

I do not have to be told that Crystal Sword or others are not Christian..I can tell with most people within about ten minutes of conversation. That is their buisness if they are Christian or not.

WE are not here to "Take the Gloves off " in our strength. This is not our job. We are the Salt of the earth...capital S used here ..not our salt..not our gloves either...got the point??

I agree with the point you are trying to make and from whence it comes. ..but not particulary your method. That is what I am trying to say. I think you can do better. Also Crystal Sword..you too ..dont let others drag you into the gutter..this is a debating forum...not histronics..or gutter technques. I am thinking the mods must be asleep here.

Both of you can do better than this.


Ambient sound,
Christians do not get off the hook. They like anyone else get punnished here on this earth for disobedience. They dont get something for nothing. See the first part of my post. I dont agree with Christians who try to post thusly ..nor unbelievers.


Thanks to All,
Orangetom

Orangetom

Point taken. Carnality coming out again from the old man. Forgive me all.