It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

AboveTopSecret.com is a Government COINTELPRO Disinformation Operation

page: 16
55
<< 13  14  15    17  18  19 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Dec, 10 2006 @ 10:41 AM
link   
Intelpro Inside®


Originally posted by zeed85
For my view is ATS coinpro or similar.I still think it is possibly run or somebody within the Admin is within the intel IT area.

You're welcome to believe that, of course, but please bear in mind that when you claim as much without knowing one way or another, your own credibility suffers.

Aside from the Three Amigos, there are 44 members of the ATS staff: admins, super moderators and moderators. We represent a cross-section of the ATS membership, and all of us were members long before becoming staff.

We enforce ATS policy, which is spelled out publicly in the AboveTopSecret.com Terms And Conditions Of Use for all the world to see. That's what we go by, and any staff member who takes action that's not firmly grounded in in those terms & conditions is going to be in trouble.

All of us work together as a team and are privy to the inner workings of ATS. All of us know how the site is operated.

And NONE of us thinks ATS is a COINTELPRO operation.

Why? Because there's not a shred of evidence to support that idea.

We Are The World

We are not of one nationality. Yes, we have Americans such as myself on the staff, but we also have several Canadians (a lot of Canadians, in fact), Britons, Australians, New Zealanders, a Norwegian, a cantankerous Scotsman and even an (extremely laid-back) Aruban on the team.

So which government would we be representing? I can assure you the non-American members of the ATS staff owe no loyalty to the U.S. government.

Is it really believable that all 47 members of the ATS are in on some secret government program? And if so, which government?

Read our posts. ATS staff members have widely varying views on pretty much everything. There are no official ATS opinions on any issue.

So what exactly would be the point of a COINTELPRO operation that doesn't have any agenda other than promoting candid, civil, topical discussion of the issues? Isn't that something they would want to suppress?


But hey, believe what you want -- and don't get me wrong, I think it's healthy not to trust us. I recommend skepticism in all things, including ATS.

However, that also includes skepticism toward bogus and self-contradictory claims about ATS.




posted on Dec, 10 2006 @ 12:52 PM
link   

Originally posted by Majic
You're welcome to believe that, of course, but please bear in mind that when you claim as much without knowing one way or another, your own credibility suffers.


Without anybody here knowing myself any credibility before ,during after is zero anyway especially based on your view point.




Aside from the Three Amigos, there are 44 members of the ATS staff: admins, super moderators and moderators. We represent a cross-section of the ATS membership, and all of us were members long before becoming staff.



Back in the day Cointelpro (which has been proven to excist beyond heresay) between 1956 and 1971 employed hundreds of agents infultrating many organisations.The FBI employied many more agents of many various areas of expertise.Much more than the ATS staff.




We enforce ATS policy, which is spelled out publicly in the AboveTopSecret.com Terms And Conditions Of Use for all the world to see. That's what we go by, and any staff member who takes action that's not firmly grounded in in those terms & conditions is going to be in trouble.


Off course for an intel operations all areas of itegrity are covered to protect the operational objectives.



Why? Because there's not a shred of evidence to support that idea.


There was never any evidence at the time until the end of Cointelpro.




We are not of one nationality. Yes, we have Americans such as myself on the staff, but we also have several Canadians (a lot of Canadians, in fact), Britons, Australians, New Zealanders, a Norwegian, a cantankerous Scotsman and even an (extremely laid-back) Aruban on the team.


American NSA operates in all the friendly countries.NSA is used in the UK because it is against UK law to bug people without a judges permission.NSA is free to bug UK citizens on the permission of the UK govt.



So what exactly would be the point of a COINTELPRO operation that doesn't have any agenda other than promoting candid, civil, topical discussion of the issues? Isn't that something they would want to suppress?


Cointelpro targeted the Socialist Workers Party,New Left,Studant Nonviolent Coordinating Commitee,American Indian Movement and the Weather Underground Group.Cointelpro may well have been hidden now if it hadn`t been burglarized at a field office in Media PA by a group of Left Wingers.The Church Comiteedocumenteda history of the FBI being used for purposes of Political repression as far back as World War One.They used Psycological Warefare planting false media stories and published bogus leaflets and other publications in the name of the targeted groups.they set up psuedo movements run by govt agents to trap and identify people.They then used legal methods and but pressure on employers etc etc to ruin that ID persons life in the hope of further Intel gathering.
One controversial incident was Civil Rights worker Vida Luizzo who was shot dead in 1965 by a KKK members from a car caring four members, one member of that car was Cointelpro who manipulated the members of the KKK into Killing her.It was rumoured the other three could have been Cointelpro.
Critics claim that agency programs in the spirit of Cointel-pro target groupslike the Comittee in Solidarity with the people of EL Salvador,Earth First and the Anti Globerization Movement.

I site such as this disscussing people personnel political believes in the open could be used to log and ID people.That would be easy for a Sophisticated Intel group to find people.Its hard to bug people before you know them.It`s even harder to bug the whole world.






[edit on 10-12-2006 by zeed85]



posted on Dec, 11 2006 @ 07:28 AM
link   
As we continue to grow, and expend an effort to provide our members with publication venues beyond this discussion board, these claims about/against us will not go away, and may even intensify for a time.

The "mind space" in which we operate is naturally skeptical of almost anything (hence my chosen name), mistrusts authority, and has deep feelings of paranoia. Combine that with an odd duality of thought about a place such as ATS:
1) One one hand people in our "mind space" have a strong desire to get the word out so that more people are aware of the conspiracies we discuss.
2) One the other hand when we expend an effort to get big so that the word can get out we're criticized as too commercial or capitalist sell-outs.
- go figure -

In the end, if we continue our very basic goals:
1) Provide the most advanced venue for online discussion
2) Ensure the venue is highly search-optimized
3) Protect the integrity of the content our members post
4) Promote superior quality posts (regardless of topic)
We believe that ultimately all will see these claims against us are just grumbles from those who are jealous of our efforts.



posted on Dec, 11 2006 @ 08:09 AM
link   
I think the value of ATS far exceeds any fears that this might be some sort of disinfo area: the friendships, the shared information, the debates, the drive towards creativity, the monkeys, and the sheer magnitude of thought that is generated on an individual basis from what people read on this forum.

There will always be those whom are too paranoid to trust anyone. At that point, the paranoia has become an illness, whereby the paranoiac can only communicate their thoughts to others through some sort of one-way medium that offers no forum for reply (such as the Toynbee Tiles)... but the problem with those kinds of methods is that it reaches so few people, those it does reach are likely to reach the wrong conclusions, and having no recourse to ask their questions or share their input, very little value is gained from the information that is distributed.

On a forum like ATS, people have the ability to share their thoughts, however frickin' nutty or anti-or-pro-whatever, and most importantly, allows a fairly anonymous forum for people to communicate back and forth, so that these thoughts evolve into ideas, and ideas evolve into hypothesis with supporting evidence. People may not agree with each other, but let it not be said that they aren't given their chance at voicing whatever comes into their heads.

And all this packaged in such a professional looking and well-maintained forum. Is it any wonder this site is so often loved, loathed, and envied by the various walks of life across the globe? Keep up the good work, staff, and don't let the overly paranoid libel-spouting naysayers get you down. Just think of them as the digital herpes that occasionally crop up on a forum that sees so many partners.



posted on Dec, 11 2006 @ 12:41 PM
link   
The Recursive Curse

I hope I can be forgiven for being a bit frustrated, but each time this topic comes up, it's always the same thing.

We cannot prove a negative. Folks can assume whatever they want, and there's nothing we can do about it.

That's actually rather reassuring, I suppose, compared to the alternative.


Ultimately, seeing how futile it is to try to prove the truth in cases like this, I find myself left with this opinion of the topic:

    circular argument
    n.
    1. See circular argument.




posted on Dec, 11 2006 @ 02:29 PM
link   

Originally posted by Majic
Ultimately, seeing how futile it is to try to prove the truth in cases like this, I find myself left with this opinion of the topic:

    circular argument
    n.
    1. See circular argument.



Umm... you are aware that SO was the OP and this was PSA about how the whole GPO accusation was BS, right?



posted on Dec, 11 2006 @ 03:24 PM
link   
Public Service Denouncement


Originally posted by thelibra
Umm... you are aware that SO was the OP and this was PSA about how the whole GPO accusation was BS, right?

Yup.


And it never fails: no matter how hard he or any other member of the staff (including me) tries to refute silly claims like these, it just convinces some people that we have something to hide.

The way it works:

1. If you don't deny the allegations, it means they must be true.

2. If you do deny the allegations, it means they must be true.

As tempting as it is to jump (like I did again), I am really coming to see what a pernicious Catch-22 this all is.

I think this thread proves the point well enough.



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 06:18 AM
link   

Originally posted by Majic
And it never fails: no matter how hard he or any other member of the staff (including me) tries to refute silly claims like these, it just convinces some people that we have something to hide.


Ahah! So it IS true! (just kidding)

Nah, man, don't worry about it. Really. The people who count, the people who matter, the ones you already know, the people who regularly contribute to ATS, the people who regularly lurk, and the new blood that likes what they see, those are the ones that matter, those are the ones that stick around.

Don't sweat the casual here-today-gone-tomorrow posters who denounce ATS as a disinfo site. Really. I mean, what do any of us have to lose from their leaving? If they're so paranoid and delusional they can't see ATS as anything other than a disinfo site, then their credibility is pretty much worthless anyway, even if they knew something valuable.

Credibility on ATS is not granted like some participatory ribbon at an elementary school sports event. It is earned, slowly and carefully, through repeatedly good posts that are either well thought out or well supported arguments. Thus, if someone like you, or any of the other myriad of people I respect here post an outrageous (or even a believable claim) I'm a lot more likely to read it and consider it, because you've earned that respect through "good" posts.

However, someone who is convinced that ATS is a disinfo site or a government psy-op can never build that kind of credibility because they'd never haved stuck around long enough to earn it. So really, you don't need to worry about them. And the newer people, whom aren't quite convinced ATS is evil, but maybe suspect it, are always going to ask, rathr than run a search on whether or not the site is a GPO or a DIS, because that's what new people do. Hell, if my customers ever read the owners manual, I'd be out of a job.

So don't sweat it, staff. Seriously. The people who matter already know what a valuable contribution ATS is to the world, and are grateful for your hard work and efforts.



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 09:03 AM
link   

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

2) One the other hand when we expend an effort to get big so that the word can get out we're criticized as too commercial or capitalist sell-outs.
- go figure -


Maybe it is better to stay specialized.Would being mainstream be in the interest of ATS.

I`ve always believed smaller groups less comercialised are more benificial for the membership.



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 09:11 AM
link   

Originally posted by thelibra

There will always be those whom are too paranoid to trust anyone. At that point, the paranoia has become an illness, whereby the paranoiac can only communicate their thoughts to others through some sort of one-way medium that offers no forum for reply (such as the Toynbee Tiles)... but the problem with those kinds of methods is that it reaches so few people, those it does reach are likely to reach the wrong conclusions, and having no recourse to ask their questions or share their input, very little value is gained from the information that is distributed.


So you are mocking every subject on this board that you personnely believe to be impossible.Gosh do you or Majic have the answers to everything.

Maybe the only purpose ATS serves is to allow people a voice when in the reality of everyday life they aren`t given the same opertunities.





On a forum like ATS, people have the ability to share their thoughts, however frickin' nutty or anti-or-pro-whatever, and most importantly, allows a fairly anonymous forum for people to communicate back and forth, so that these thoughts evolve into ideas, and ideas evolve into hypothesis with supporting evidence. People may not agree with each other, but let it not be said that they aren't given their chance at voicing whatever comes into their heads.


But this just allows people such as Majic and some other members to become creative in there responses.



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 09:14 AM
link   

Originally posted by zeed85
Maybe it is better to stay specialized.Would being mainstream be in the interest of ATS.

I`ve always believed smaller groups less comercialised are more benificial for the membership.


Well... I'd have to disagree.

How can a small group with limited exposure/traffic hope to get their points noticed?

How would members with an important message benefit from a low-traffic site that has no search engine exposure?

How would "the public" ever notice what members have to say if the site is small, low-traffic, and low-tech?

And... if the above scenario ever did result in something important, it would die a quick death as the small board is destroyed by unexpected high traffic (resulting in shut-down by their host, or financial demands beyond their means).


As long as I'm part of the team at the helm here... we have no desire to "go mainstream"... however, we have a strong desire to be "noticed by the mainstream." I think those are two very different things.



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 09:36 AM
link   

Originally posted by Majic


I hope I can be forgiven for being a bit frustrated, but each time this topic comes up, it's always the same thing.


Well of course.You do know you belong to a Conspiricy board.You can`t have on one hand disscussions on New World Order, then criticise people for thinking maybe the people organising NWO wouldn`t use the web.



We cannot prove a negative. Folks can assume whatever they want, and there's nothing we can do about it.


You can base this argument on evidence obtained on Cointelpro.It`s not as if the Cointelpro never excisted.

Majic get off ATS do some research on Cointelpro Not just Internet Search then ask is it so unbelievable.

You might then qualify to dissmise/agree it`s possible.

You might also find out that people were unaware that companies they were working for were FBI Cointelpro.

Majic people do lie especially on the net to people they`ve never met.Just because your on the inside dosn`t mean you are aware.

Cointelpro had a reason to excist it still has today.I know people (l know how that sounds) that have a much bigger interest in govt conspricies than me won`t come to this site or for that matter most others due to the govt policing methods of the past and the probability that the govt is using the net as a tool.

Having said that ATS is still an interesting place that hopefully will continue to be used as a disscussion board and not a place to help Tag the problem sheep of the flock when it comes to giving out the Micro chip.

Imagine how bad you would feel Majic that your govt used your membership to this site to restrict your movements and access because you may have been unfairly labelled as a possible Terrorist to the state.

Not possible well govt`s are researching peoples profiles to see if they fall into the same psy make up of murderers,sex offenders etc etc etc before they have committed any crime.



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 10:01 AM
link   

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord


Well... I'd have to disagree.

How can a small group with limited exposure/traffic hope to get their points noticed?


Have you ever driven an Aston Martin,Lotus,Jaguar or TVR before they sold to large International groups.

Sorry the same goes for American Cars but l`ve never driven any so not qualified but I guess the same principle.

Those cars today are built extremely well,new tech etc, but if your a true petrol head they are a world apart.



How would members with an important message benefit from a low-traffic site that has no search engine exposure?


On the subjects listed on this site l would imagine if the user was interested ATS would be found very easily.



How would "the public" ever notice what members have to say if the site is small, low-traffic, and low-tech?


This is a problem with the subject matter here,such as UFO`s they don`t turn up everyday and the same stories that are here excisted in the 1950`s.Having said that you could also argue that alot of the info posted is garbage.ATS had to evolve in other subjects to further exband the membership.Guess that better for you and the admin to sort out.

Do you make a classic or turn it into mass productive garbage (which does sell and make profit)



As long as I'm part of the team at the helm here... we have no desire to "go mainstream"... however, we have a strong desire to be "noticed by the mainstream." I think those are two very different things.


Then l think you need to address the direction your going in.Of course l doubt know what you have planned or what`s in your head.I`m not about to tell you either.And of course l`m probably wrong.All previous attempts of getting lets say Unexplainable info into the Mainstream has resulting in interest but mainly people rejecting it as garbage.
Look at TV covering say paranormal there`s main main interesting facts but most people including Science dismiss it.Tv prog tend to be restricted to smaller channels and small production.Holywood has made it big and probably killed it.

Having said that ATS is still a nice place to hang around and read, but in recent years has become a place for loons and idiots.Would be interesting to compare the percentage of band members when ATS first started and today how many have been band compared to membership growth

[edit on 12-12-2006 by zeed85]



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 10:31 AM
link   
Internet Expertise


Originally posted by zeed85
Majic get off ATS do some research on Cointelpro Not just Internet Search then ask is it so unbelievable.

There was no such thing as an Internet when I started studying "conspiracy theory", so lecturing me like this doesn't make any sense at all.

You might want to assume less and study more yourself.



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 11:00 AM
link   

Originally posted by Majic

There was no such thing as an Internet when I started studying "conspiracy theory", so lecturing me like this doesn't make any sense at all.

You might want to assume less and study more yourself.


Now you showing your age


Same goes for me, but l guess maybe l studied a bit more on this subject than you.




posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 11:31 AM
link   
Pride And Prejudice


Originally posted by zeed85
Same goes for me, but l guess maybe l studied a bit more on this subject than you.

If you had, you'd know better than to say things like that.

I'm not impressed.
:shk:



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 11:43 AM
link   
I find this back-and-forth enlightening and pedantic.

The poster expressing a lengthy experience with Counterintelligence Programs appears to be expressing a limited and recently gained knowledge of the real driving force behind government backed counterintelligence.

History is rife with concrete examples of this type of scandalous activity beyond the easily wikied examples presented in these past few posts. And, while popularized sensationalist articles may point many fingers toward the FBI, said agency was not the only source of this activity, just one of the few discovered. Every intelligence group carried out CI operations both domestic and abroad.

And, we should never speak of these types of programs in past-tense voice as seen in recent posts and other portions of this thread. Currently, we have the DCIIS as the clearing hours for all active CI programs, the FPRG as a quick-response military unit for CI operations, and the JCITA for training new CI operatives deployed across many agencies. All current CI operations function under the management of the office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense to establish a wall of plausible deniability if needed.

With this information in mind, one needs to consider what form current CI operations may take, and if such operations may include infiltration or management of a website such as this.

To engage such conjecture, we must realize the goals of known CI programs both current and historical. Any proposed program is subject to a cost-benefit analysis by analysts working for the Assistant Secretary of Defense. CI programs are expected to have a well-defined result and completion date, with a high priority placed on minimal time and personnel investment. Proposed operations are selected based on the benefit of the result against the time, personnel and material investment required.

How would one present to their superiors the projected result of infiltrating or managing a web-based community? How would the result be measured? What is the time frame? When is it over?

The proposition that this or any web-based community is a sponsored counterintelligence operation belies a fundamental lack of solid information about such operations. It simply would not be.


(grammar correction)

[edit on 12-12-2006 by mister.old.school]



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 12:00 PM
link   
You really think I`m trying to prove l have knowledge on the subject when l`ve only given examples from Wilkipi.

Please if you guys really know anything about intel you know you have to play the grey man.

Please read between the lines guys.Majic l thought you be better at it than the last guy posting here.



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 12:35 PM
link   
Proof By Omission


Originally posted by zeed85
You really think I`m trying to prove l have knowledge on the subject when l`ve only given examples from Wilkipi.

Actually, you're doing a great job of proving the opposite.


Grey Play


Originally posted by zeed85
Please if you guys really know anything about intel you know you have to play the grey man.

The whole point is that we shouldn't have to "play" anything.

This is a conspiracy website, not a drama club -- although sometimes I wonder.


Line Art


Originally posted by zeed85
Please read between the lines guys.Majic l thought you be better at it than the last guy posting here.

Ironically, the lines themselves are telling the story plainly enough, and I invite anyone who's interested to simply review your own posts if there's any doubt regarding what I'm referring to.

I do appreciate your making my case for me, however, so thanks for that, at least.



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 12:57 PM
link   
Have we considered all plausible options in regard to what ATS could really be?


Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
Combine that with an odd duality of thought about a place such as ATS:
1) One one hand people in our "mind space" have a strong desire to get the word out so that more people are aware of the conspiracies we discuss.
2) One the other hand when we expend an effort to get big so that the word can get out we're criticized as too commercial or capitalist sell-outs.
- go figure -

In the end, if we continue our very basic goals:
1) Provide the most advanced venue for online discussion
2) Ensure the venue is highly search-optimized
3) Protect the integrity of the content our members post
4) Promote superior quality posts (regardless of topic)
We believe that ultimately all will see these claims against us are just grumbles from those who are jealous of our efforts.


I would like to offer another possible option which fits nicely into the schematics and the dialogue of this thread:

Perhaps the ATS sight isn't exactly a disinformation sight. Perhaps, just perhaps, it is a sight that governments and other organizations do have an invested interest in, but not as a disinfo project, but rather the promotion of ATS being a means to an effective "Think Tank" which offers freely "Outside of the Box" brand of thinking that offers certain entities a fresh perspective, untainted by the corruption of wanting or needing too much power and control.

In other words:

What if there are government officials or organizations who do have an invested interest in ATS, but not directed towards disinformation, but rather the promotion of dialogue in the quest to find more "truth compatible" ideas and concepts? What if ATS is in fact a sight where members and contributors are unwittingly providing a "think tank" for governments with similiar agendas?



new topics

top topics



 
55
<< 13  14  15    17  18  19 >>

log in

join