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Australian Freemasons win lawsuit against 'whistleblowers' site

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Cug

posted on May, 11 2006 @ 10:30 AM
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Could you guys take it to U2U's or something?

So in what probably is a hopeless attempt to get back on topic.

Pick something that you feel is substantial evidence on the GG site, post why you feel it is so, and lets talk about it. Pretty please?




posted on May, 11 2006 @ 12:08 PM
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Originally posted by Cug
Pick something that you feel is substantial evidence on the GG site, post why you feel it is so, and lets talk about it. Pretty please?


Sure, lets get back on topic.

Here's what I presume, the beginning of the accusations against the O.T.O. emmanating from the Gaiaguys website.
www.gaiaguys.net...



posted on May, 12 2006 @ 10:08 AM
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Originally posted by TerraX


Here's what I presume, the beginning of the accusations against the O.T.O. emmanating from the Gaiaguys website.
www.gaiaguys.net...


All quotes following are taken from the above link.


Mick was introduced to the satanic cult as a very young child by an extended relative. Mick informed me of many experiences he was subjected to as a child in this cult. From everything that I have been told by Mick, the cult appears to be the Order Templis Orientus (Illuminati), operating in Australia. Mick now suffers from MPD/DID but has survived his experiences remarkably well considering the traumas he has been through.


This claims that "Mick" (there is a disclaimer that all names have supposedly been changed, if they really exist at all) was introduced to a "satanic cult" that "appears to be" Ordo Templi Orientis, as a child. To begin with, O.T.O. is a religious fraternal society, not a "satanic cult". Secondly, O.T.O. admits only men and women of their own free will, who have attained at least the age of 18. Children cannot be initiated into the O.T.O.

Thirdly, it mentions "MPD" or "Multiple Personality Disorder", as if it were a fact. But the real fact is that no serious psychiatrists even believe in MPD. It has been pointed out time and time again that only people with certain "therapists" ever develop this phenomenon, and the therapists constantly reinforce it. It has also been shown that when such people end this "therapy", the "MPD" fades away. There is a general consensus among experts that MPD is the result of bad therapy and even worse psychology, not the result of satanic abuse. It is also generally agreed that these so-called "therapists" are the ones who instill false memories of satanic abuse.


As a child Mick was forced to attend blood-rituals, where animals and small children were sacrificed and their blood and organs consumed.


Anyone familiar with O.T.O. rituals can see how obviously ridiculous this claim is. The public rituals of O.T.O., of which the Gnostic Mass is the most important, can be read at practically any Thelemic website in the world. The O.T.O.'s private rituals, which are their degree initiation ceremonies, can be read in Francis King's "The Secret Rituals of the O.T.O.", first published in the 1970's. These are the Crowley revisions.


Mick was required to clean up the blood after these rituals. The children and babies were street children or were taken from orphanages, so that they could not be traced and no-one would know, or care, if they went missing.


Another ludicrous statement which makes ridiculous assumptions. It assumes just because a kid is in an orphanage, he couldn't be traced and nobody cares about him. Obviously, the opposite is true.


The rituals were spoken in Latin and were clearly satanic.


How could an orphan, presumably lacking education, understand Latin "clearly"? I took three years of Latin, and still struggle with it.



posted on May, 13 2006 @ 03:10 AM
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One of the first things that strikes me concerning this article;
www.gaiaguys.net...
is that all names are changed, that automatically makes it hard to corroborate and the list is so extensive with quilty parties which makes it rather unbelievable.

"The members of the network include senior management and executives from a major television network, media celebrities, high-ranking politicians, police officers in charge of pedophile and child pornography investigations, senior management representatives from the Department of Education, directors of "child-focused" service clubs, wealthy businessmen, and others. I have tried to keep the account as brief as possible while trying to include all relevant information. The description covers events from 1995 until present. Names have been changed."



posted on May, 13 2006 @ 10:51 PM
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To Terrax

I was under the impression that if you name names in such articles as those your actions would constitute defamation against those who you name thereby why wouldn't anyone not be cautious.
And obviously to protect those victims and their families, I gather their name was also changed out of human decency.
It seems like your concerted campaign to undermine dyson (gaiaguys) and settle old scores by the cunning sophistry you deploy in first putting doubt in the minds of the participants here what amounts to nothing but a selfless act on the part of gaiaguys in exposing rotten elements of society, you paint a darker picture of.
Since its clear what your intent and motives are against dyson, your actions on many other forums along with this one would centre around insidiously undermining all his honest efforts.
As they say the best form of defence is offence and so you may have heeded this advice by accusing us of having some sort of agenda barging in here to defend dyson by attacking you.
But of course you brought this upon yourself, the negative karma you created for yourself with your dirty deeds is the cause in which our consternance will be the full fledged effect you will have to deal with. Sorry but I am here to stay till the end.
So in closing, by undermining dyson, your action amounts nothing less than condoning the abuses, rape, torture, murder, exploitation and slavery of those innocent victims and if you had children of your own, will you derive satisfaction at seeing me rape, sodomise and torture one of your children while you look on?



posted on May, 14 2006 @ 06:57 AM
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Originally posted by newinitiation
To Terrax
I was under the impression that if you name names in such articles as those your actions would constitute defamation against those who you name thereby why wouldn't anyone not be cautious.
And obviously to protect those victims and their families, I gather their name was also changed out of human decency.

I can fully fathom why people should be kept anonymous for protective reasons. However if you present a case as fact and every participant remains anonymous then you don't have a clear case, just an abstraction of it. That's the point I'm trying to make. Besides, the full story with every name included could be kept at several locations ready to be disclosed if something would happen to the people involved. Yet the story itself seems almost to end up in a stalemate, but you probably noticed that, right? And btw Newinitiation, Gaiaguys seems to have no problem listing the private addresses of O.T.O. members. www.lashtal.com... (page 3) Is that decent?



It seems like your concerted campaign to undermine dyson (gaiaguys) and settle old scores by the cunning sophistry you deploy in first putting doubt in the minds of the participants here what amounts to nothing but a selfless act on the part of gaiaguys in exposing rotten elements of society, you paint a darker picture of.

Lets go back to the beginning Newinitiation. I started this thread on 20-12-2005 just after I became aware of the lawsuit and its verdict. I was already a member here for some time (check the register date) and thought it was 'news' for this section of the ATS board. At the time I hadn't corresponded with Dyson for some time, in fact Dyson came to look me up on the P4C board a few months later. Later on you came after Dyson enlisted for help on the FIGU board and you showed up on P4C and later on here. Am I correct so far? Now, go back to the first page of this thread which I suspect you haven't read since I kept my position rather neutral and didn't put Dyson on the forefront of any personal criticism. In balancing matters I said this on 21-12-2005, postnumber 1872951.;

"When I first read the stories on the gaiaguys website I recognized that these were serious accusations. Let me say that if it's true then those involved in criminal acts should be severely punished. However, despite of the accusations no direct involvement of the O.T.O. is proven in relation to pedophilia cases and it becomes somewhat like a conspiracy theory where powerful figures cover eachothers backs. As the website-owner found out, if you can't proof your accusations then it's slander and defamation.
The O.T.O. like other groups is a mysterious organisation and therefore lends itself to theories being applied to it. In a way they themselves create (negative) controversy. I must also point out that their handling of the witness and labeling the witness as mentally unbalanced is somewhat of a cheap shot."

Does this sound as a personal vendetta or as discussing the material? If you think I'm defending the O.T.O. material and the man who inspires them (Alistair Crowley) then you are mistaken once again. This is what I said on 24-12-2005, postnumber 1877799.;
"In all fairness sometimes things are written in a particular context, for example in satire. But if look at a number of quotes then I'm left with the impression that Alistair Crowley is a couple of cans short of a six-pack. Some statements are just plain rude and extremely excentric. No wonder some people see "evil"."

What concentrated campaign are you talking about Newinitiation? While it's true that I don't have much respect for that man and disapprove of his methods, he seems to get himself more in to trouble then I do here on this board.



Since its clear what your intent and motives are against dyson, your actions on many other forums along with this one would centre around insidiously undermining all his honest efforts.

Intent and motives you so easily slap on me are not quite clear when you consider the above. But have you analised Dyson's 'honest efforts' yet? Those 'efforts' where he tries to discredit Michael Salla, Randy Winters and many others by taking some of their quotes and totally ripping them out of context so that he has a negative angle on the person. That's what Dyson is good at yet not a word from you on that huh?

Continued in part 2.



posted on May, 14 2006 @ 07:28 AM
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Originally posted by newinitiation
As they say the best form of defence is offence and so you may have heeded this advice by accusing us of having some sort of agenda barging in here to defend dyson by attacking you.

The fact of the matter remains that he enlisted for help on the FIGU board which I happend to read and where you and Vestri are a member. First you show up on the P4C board with messages airing the Meier phylosofy but when I ruffed your feathers a little you aimed your sights on me. That's ok in a sense but don't play innocent. By the messages posted on the FIGU board I can tell that some people have respect for Dyson's work, naturally those same people would come to his aid.



But of course you brought this upon yourself, the negative karma you created for yourself with your dirty deeds is the cause in which our consternance will be the full fledged effect you will have to deal with.

And you seem to be oblivious not only as to what I am doing but what you yourself are doing or the matters you promote. That's called 'cause and effect'. When I started this thread I was fully aware that I could receive reactions from people like you. Negative karma and dirty deeds? You're using that selectively thus showing your own shortcomings.



Sorry but I am here to stay till the end.

Are you going to hold my hand to? Just kidding. You staying, good. Afteral the real members of the Freemasons and O.T.O. are in fact on this board. You can show them what you as FIGU members have in stall for them. Oops.



So in closing, by undermining dyson, your action amounts nothing less than condoning the abuses, rape, torture, murder, exploitation and slavery of those innocent victims and if you had children of your own, will you derive satisfaction at seeing me rape, sodomise and torture one of your children while you look on?


As I said in the beginning of this thread on page 1, people involved in phedophilia crimes should be severely punished. No excuses for that whatsoever. A couple of years back I corresponded with Dyson and mentioned to him (feel free to check this up) that if I was aware of child-abuse crimes being comitted in my own country by secret societies I would storm in their buildings myself. My point was then as it is now, that you have to be precise, you have to have conclusive evidence. I don't condone the abuse of children in any way. Children are our greatest treasures, if you hurt them while they are young you bruise them for life. So in closing Newinitiation, keep your delusional verdicts on this matter directed at my person to yourself and pray we never meet face to face because I would surely knock you the **** out.



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 07:46 AM
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Originally posted by newinitiation

So in closing, by undermining dyson, your action amounts nothing less than condoning the abuses, rape, torture, murder, exploitation and slavery of those innocent victims and if you had children of your own, will you derive satisfaction at seeing me rape, sodomise and torture one of your children while you look on?


Jeez, where do these people come from?

Is this Dyson guy some kind of god or messiah to you and Vestri or something? On that other forum that was linked, Vestri is practically drooling all over himself by practically worshiping that guy and his "high I.Q.".

You're saying that by "undermining Dyson", i.e., by pointing out the fact that gaiaguys are quacks, we are in effect condoning rape and torture. The more I read about Gaiaguys, the more I'm reminded of Jonestown.



posted on May, 16 2006 @ 01:35 AM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light
You're saying that by "undermining Dyson", i.e., by pointing out the fact that gaiaguys are quacks, we are in effect condoning rape and torture. The more I read about Gaiaguys, the more I'm reminded of Jonestown.

Well Masonic Light. You made it on the Gaiaguys website with your quote.
www.gaiaguys.net...
"The more I read about Gaiaguys, the more I'm reminded of Jonestown." - "Masonic Light", May, 2006, on the "Above Top Secret" Discussion Board.

Told you the person was good at using quotes.


Cug

posted on May, 16 2006 @ 03:21 AM
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Oh man, I haven't checked out their site in quite some time.

Looks like they are all worked up over Liber Oz now. Going so far as to post a screenshot of it on OTO-Australia's old website, because from what I can tell, they think the O.T.O. is trying to hide it or something.
All it takes is a quick look at google to see that it's not being hidden in any way.

In fact one of the obligations of a degree (2nd?) in the O.T.O. is to post a copy of Liber Oz, Signed by your real name and address. Not only are members of the O.T.O. not hiding this document, they are quite proud of it, viewing it up there with (and above) the English Bill of rights, the French Rites of Man, and the United States Bill of rights.

The part they seem to be wigged out over is "5. Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights." Which is nothing less than the right of self defense. It can also include the right to protect others who are having their rights violated (WWII anyone?), and even overthrowing a tyrannical government.

To claim that it provides for the wholesale murder of whoever you wish is, well, asinine. If everyone has these rights then you can't infringe upon the rights of others. And murder would most definitely be an infringement on someones right to "to live in the way that he wills to do:"

Just because you have the right to do something, it doesn't mean you wont have to suffer any repercussions from acting on that right.

Man has a right to eat as he will, but if I choose to eat bucket after bucket of lard, my right will not protect me heart decease.

Man has the right to drink as he will, but if I choose to down a case of wine, it does not give me the right to jump in the car.

Crowley's idea behind writing Liber Oz is to put in writing the basic rights of man and by using words of only one syllable make it understandable to the most idiotic of people... In this, it seems, he has failed.



posted on May, 16 2006 @ 09:16 AM
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terrarubicon

I can fully fathom why people should be kept anonymous for protective reasons. However if you present a case as fact and every participant remains anonymous then you don't have a clear case, just an abstraction of it. That's the point I'm trying to make. Besides, the full story with every name included could be kept at several locations ready to be disclosed if something would happen to the people involved. Yet the story itself seems almost to end up in a stalemate, but you probably noticed that, right? And btw Newinitiation, Gaiaguys seems to have no problem listing the private addresses of O.T.O. members. www.lashtal.com... (page 3) Is that decent?

###Why don't you ask Dyson personally what their real names are?



Lets go back to the beginning Newinitiation. I started this thread on 20-12-2005 just after I became aware of the lawsuit and its verdict. I was already a member here for some time (check the register date) and thought it was 'news' for this section of the ATS board. At the time I hadn't corresponded with Dyson for some time, in fact Dyson came to look me up on the P4C board a few months later. Later on you came after Dyson enlisted for help on the FIGU board and you showed up on P4C and later on here. Am I correct so far? Now, go back to the first page of this thread which I suspect you haven't read since I kept my position rather neutral and didn't put Dyson on the forefront of any personal criticism. In balancing matters I said this on 21-12-2005, postnumber 1872951.;

### When the f**k are you going to continue cowardly hiding behind your twisted idea of what honesty is to continue your theatrics of playing the innocent self impressed genius in thinking that others can't see through your cunning sophistry? engaging in your subtle prodding of suggestions in a manner worthy of a snake.
Balancing matters??? My f**king arse, the fact alone in your focus on Dysons case, of all the other cases in the world suggests to me that billy is definitiely a threat to your desire to become the forefront henchman for exopolitics. Do you understand me????Have you got that so far or do I have to ram it through your thick skull.

Intent and motives you so easily slap on me are not quite clear when you consider the above. But have you analised Dyson's 'honest efforts' yet? Those 'efforts' where he tries to discredit Michael Salla, Randy Winters and many others by taking some of their quotes and totally ripping them out of context so that he has a negative angle on the person. That's what Dyson is good at yet not a word from you on that huh?

###Is there a f**king law stating that I have to read every f**king word written by Dr salla or Dyson???
You seem to miss the fact that first of all, Not only until you mentioned that Dyson made an appeal on the FIGU forum that I became aware of it which you project my intention of entering the p4c forum for those reasons which is hogwash, when did we ever discuss anything directly about dyson on any forum???enlighten me with a link.


So in closing Newinitiation, keep your delusional verdicts on this matter directed at my person to yourself and pray we never meet face to face because I would surely knock you the **** out.

###If you happen to be at the other end of me that was prior to billy, I woulda scoured every nook and cranny of this world to hunt you down like a feral animal Mr E.Visser and gladly taken up with open arms what seem to be an invitation from you. You really don't want to know about my past.
So get this through your f**king small little head and I mean every word of it, don't press the wrong button.
So in closing, you don't register one little heart beat so get this through your head and I mean really quickly, you aren't worth a spittle and besides to degrade myself as low as you have will not reflect well even for my own standards. You waste of breath.



posted on May, 16 2006 @ 10:20 AM
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posted on May, 16 2006 @ 12:02 PM
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Originally posted by TerraX

Well Masonic Light. You made it on the Gaiaguys website with your quote.
www.gaiaguys.net...


Interesting that they would quote that; it isn't very flattering to them.


Anyway, does anyone have any updates on the case?


Cug

posted on May, 16 2006 @ 12:41 PM
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The last update was in Dec. www.lashtal.com...
I have a few automated google searches, but so far nothing has turned up from any news sources.


The O.T.O. Australia was recently chartered as a Grand Lodge so they might of been busy for the last few months.



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 01:16 PM
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Hey TerraX, how many of these other people who are also posting here in this thread that are also tyring to debunk gaiaguysnet website here, like you are, are you also aliasing as too? Also how many of these same sort of opinionated people as you, who are posting here in this thread are some of your freemason mates who you brought along from your masonic lodge?? I already figured out long ago that 'masonic light' must be one of them, who else here is too????

[edit on 17-5-2006 by vestri]



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 02:24 PM
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Originally posted by vestri
Hey TerraX, how many of these other people who are also posting here in this thread that are also tyring to debunk gaiaguysnet website here, like you are, are you also aliasing as too? Also how many of these same sort of opinionated people as you, who are posting here in this thread are some of your freemason mates who you brought along from your masonic lodge?? I already figured out long ago that 'masonic light' must be one of them, who else here is too????
[edit on 17-5-2006 by vestri]

Everyone follows my orders here Vestri. I put Masonic Light in charge of the cold beers. Cug arranges the crispies and ice cream and Nygdan I put in charge of the entertainment. *Burp*, excuse me.



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 04:14 PM
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Originally posted by TerraX
Everyone follows my orders here Vestri. I put Masonic Light in charge of the cold beers. Cug arranges the crispies and ice cream and Nygdan I put in charge of the entertainment. *Burp*, excuse me.


You forgot me, TX!! You said I was supposed to bring the party hats.



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 04:44 PM
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Now then, we really do deal with issues, too.

Finding the gaiaguys website difficult to navigate, I nonetheless spent some time trying to get to the heart of some matters discussed here, but I'm still unable to locate the "original document" that appeared on Dr. Reina Michaelson's website and that is referenced in the December 4, 2005 Press Release.

I found this remark very telling, as I also didn't understand how the O.T.O. became targeted by whistleblowers in the first place: "Just why these people fastened onto the O.T.O and Thelema (they used selective quotes from The Book of Law and other Thelemic texts to justify their positions) was at first a mystery to us. Later we discovered the world of conspiracy theorists."

Michaleson's initial letter to Premier Bracks dated September 16, 2003 is about "the protection of pedophiles by members of Victoria Police and the Department of Education."

How is it, then, that the Australia O.T.O. become accused of being a pedophile cult?

Gaiaguys offers a simple explanation:

"The gaiaguys.net campaign has been launched in the light of substantial evidence that the Victorian Police and Victorian state government are refusing to investigate and bring to justice an identified pedophile/child pornography network operating in Victoria, whose victims claim being subject to rituals which fit the description laid out in the Ordo Templi Orientis Book of the Law."

Two things are important here:
1) Substantial evidence of refusal to investigate a pedophile network
2)Victims describe rituals which "fit the description..."

As I understand it, "substantial evidence is still forthcoming, and "fitting the description of..." does not sufficiently identify the perpetrator(s) of these heinous acts.

O.T.O. solicitor Jan Merkeke has this to say:

"...with total rejection of any proof, there's been no attempts at research,...they've just come out with blanket statements that have damaged ordinary people and an organisation which is primarily there to serve a religious function, it's a religious organization recognised under the Taxation Act."





[edit on 17-5-2006 by vogelfire]


Cug

posted on May, 17 2006 @ 05:29 PM
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Originally posted by vogelfire

Finding the gaiaguys website difficult to navigate, I nonetheless spent some time trying to get to the heart of some matters discussed here, but I'm still unable to locate the "original document" that appeared on Dr. Reina Michaelson's website and that is referenced in the December 4, 2005 Press Release.


I'm going off memory here, but I believe Dr. Michaelson took down the article in question quite some time ago. Before the case was even filed in fact.



"The gaiaguys.net campaign has been launched in the light of substantial evidence that the Victorian Police and Victorian state government are refusing to investigate and bring to justice an identified pedophile/child pornography network operating in Victoria, whose victims claim being subject to rituals which fit the description laid out in the Ordo Templi Orientis Book of the Law."


The problem with that is there really are no rituals in the Book Of the Law. But it takes no great effort to guess what they are talking about



Source: The Book of the Law
III,12: Sacrifice cattle, little and big: after a child.
III,13: But not now.
III,14: Ye shall see that hour, o blessèd Beast, and thou the Scarlet Concubine of his desire!
III,15: Ye shall be sad thereof.


But this is not a command or a ritual... it is a prophecy. Rose and Aleister Crowley lost their child to illness 2 years after this was written.

Crowley's comments of those verses follows



Source: Crowleys comments on the BotL

The Old Comment
12-15. This, ill-understood at the time, is now too terribly clear. The 15th verse, apparently an impossible sequel, has justified itself.
The New Comment
12-15. This, read in connexion with verse 43, was then fulfilled May 1, 1906, o.s. The tragedy was also part of mine initiation, as described in The Temple of Solomon the King. It is yet so bitter that I care not to write of it.



posted on May, 18 2006 @ 01:32 PM
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Another succinct statement from the Australia O.T.O.



The actions we are taking issue with -- the making of claims of the vilest criminality against entire groups on the basis of their beliefs, the publishing of these untested claims on the internet, the particularization of the claims when individual members of religious groups are named -- pose clear threats to the religious pluralism that we previously considered part of the nature of our country.


In other words the Australia O.T.O. is defending not just itself but "entire groups,"just as the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States guarantees "freedom of assembly, speech, religion, etc."

If I now understand the gist of the thread here, the entire legal defense from Michaelson and gaiaguys seems to rest on the claim that some people report being subjected to rituals that bear a resemblance to O.T.O. literature, using selective quotes from The Book of Law and other Thelemic texts to justify their position.

If it is true that the O.T.O. does not have rituals, but its literature does contain "suggestions of rituals," does it necessarily follow that O.T.O. is involved in a paedophile and pornographic network? No, it does not.

I don't think anyone here disagrees with the egregious nature of child abuse in any form. That paedophile networks exist world wide -- and now more than ever on the internet -- is also a given that I think everyone agrees with. What we don't seem to agree with is the importance of catching the real predator.



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