The Bible is not the word of god

quote: Originally posted by mytym
The fact that you say it implies this indicates that men, not God wrote this section and "interpreted it" in a way they could understand in their time.


quote: Originally posted in response by saint4God
Or, God gave it to them in a way they would understand the point. Again, not my thinking on it.

mytym:
Understanding the point is not the "word of God" it is the "point of God". Please tell me what your thinking is then?

quote: Originally posted by mytym
If it was truly the word of God wouldn't it be unerstandable by all through all time?

quote: Originally posted in response by saint4God
Why would it be?

mytym:
Because God transcends all through all time. If it was only meant to be understood by people back then why do we refer to the Bible at all in our time?

quote: Originally posted by mytym
As the Bible does indicate that the Earth was created in this time

quote: Originally posted in response by saint4God

Where?

mytym:
In the book of Genesis, with all the begats, remember, I mentioned this already.

quote: Originally posted by mytym
I have a Bible that we used in religious studies at high school and it even has a timeline one of the pages on the back showing that the time the earth was created was 4,600 BC if I recall correctly.

quote: Originally posted in response by saint4God
Is it too late to get a refund?

mytym:
Are you saying that not all Bible's are the word of God, such as the Bible I have? If so, please tell me how I decide which Bibles are to be believed and which aren't?

quote: Originally posted by mytym
In lieu of this you need only trace through each generation from Adam & Eve through all the children (begat this and begat that) to verify this.

quote: Originally posted in response by saint4God
Hardly "verifyable" evidence to the age of the universe. I've heard the theory before and disagree.

mytym:
I don't recall mentioning the Universe, I was talking about Earth. Why would it not be verifiable, seeing as how it is written in the Bible, and the Bible requires no interpretation and is 100% accurate (according to you)?

quote: Originally posted by mytym
Or were the dinosaurs confined to parts of the world that weren't inhabited by humans?

quote: Originally posted in response by saint4God
I don't see why they would be if they existed at the same time...though I don't think they did. Could be wrong.

mytym:
If you don't think dinosaurs existed at the same time as humans then you must believe they were around for the 5? days between the time the world was created and the time Adam was created. Either you don't believe dinosaurs existed, or you don't believe the book of Genesis. Which one is it?

As you seem intent on ducking around the dinosaur issue, perhaps you can explain the following contradiction in the Bible:

In the book of Genesis it states that God put a limit on the maximum lifespan of a human being to 120 years. In the same book it states that Noah lived for 500 odd years! Even the Guiness Book of Records records the oldest person to have lived until the age of 122 last time I checked. Did God make a mistake?

I read up on the Bible and Noah actually lived 950 years, 350 of those after the 120 year statement! However as he was already past 120 at the time perhaps you discount this. The Bible also states many descendants of Abraham living several hundred years. Abraham himself is said to have lived 175 years. The Bible references are as follows:

Genesis 6:3
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with [a] man forever, for he
is mortal ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."

Genesis 25:7
Altogether, Abraham lived a hundred and seventy-five years.

Please explain.



[edit on 27/1/06 by mytym]

Originally posted by gps777

Oh saint4God,that was`nt wasted on someone who would`nt or could`nt appreciate it

Glad you enjoyed. All true though.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Toadmund
The bible is true!?
www.skepticsannotatedbible.com...
Look at this link and tell me what parts are the truth, and what parts I can just ignore.

The parts that are the truth are the verbatim complete books of the Bible. The rest you can ignore.

so pointing out logical conclusions that parts of a text contradict is worthless?

if i were to take any other anthology of books like the bible, written about the same subject, by many different people, over 1000 years, i'd find as many problems with parts of the texts.

but when it's the bible, it's got to be wrong.

you didn't even acknowledge that the website is equal opportunity, offering the skeptics annotated quran and book of mormon.

i highly doubt you read over every single annotation before you made your statement, so please stop spewing out bull, okay?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i highly doubt you read over every single annotation before you made your statement, so please stop spewing out bull, okay?

Thank you for pointing this out to our religious friend here.

Saint4god seems intent on proving the bible is the word of god simply by quoting passages out of it. Which to me seems to be the wrong way to go about proving your point. Especially in a thread entitled "the bible is not the word of god.

I think He/She (sorry not sure at this point) needs to be reminded that just because he/she has strong beliefs, some of us are quite skeptical, and will not accept his/her facts based solely on his/her "Faith."

Im in no position to tell Saint4god whether he/she is wrong or right because at the end of the day, i wasnt around when the bible was written, none of us were. But would like to see some more evidence rather then the usual religious rhetoric.

i]Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i highly doubt you read over every single annotation before you made your statement, so please stop spewing out bull, okay?

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist
Thank you for pointing this out to our religious friend here.

All he has pointed out that he did`nt understand saints reply

Saint4god seems intent on proving the bible is the word of god simply by quoting passages out of it.

No, more correctly Saint4God and other Christains dont need to prove this,they know it is.A lot of Christians (self included)had`nt read the Bible before believing in God first.Once you find God and accept Christ into your life the Bible backs up this experience and one knows its the word of God.

Some can and do read it and find God all so.

Which to me seems to be the wrong way to go about proving your point. Especially in a thread entitled "the bible is not the word of god.

Well boo hoo sorry but,did you only want people to come here that agree with you when your wrong?
If you had any idea at all,you would see what a patient understanding out standing example of a follower of Christ saint4God and many others are here on ATS that their only intent is for the best for you,and these very people are mere pimples on butts compared to the majesty of who and what Christ is for you and i,you would realize that going to some hate site of something we have experienced to be true is wasting your time and ours.
Yet for Christians such as saint4God still gives his time and effort for you and he does this for the love of Christ.Why??? because God proved his ultimate love for us first.

I think He/She (sorry not sure at this point) needs to be reminded that just because he/she has strong beliefs, some of us are quite skeptical, and will not accept his/her facts based solely on his/her "Faith."

So you know he,fine and he`s only telling you from his personal experience and also knowledge of the Bible how you can prove it for yourself.Which isthe only way anyway.

Im in no position to tell Saint4god whether he/she is wrong or right because at the end of the day, i wasnt around when the bible was written, none of us were. But would like to see some more evidence rather then the usual religious rhetoric.

You want evidence first?well believe,knock on Gods door and ask him,but if you are playing with God half heartedly you`ll be knocking and asking till you die.If you do it whole heartedly you will get an answer,if you realize He is real,then confess your a sinner,ask and call Christ to be your Lord,you will be changed in an instant.This is an experience that cannot be denied.

This is the way your going to know for sure,when and if you do,try then to explain your expirence that you know He is real to others such as yourself or the hords here on ATS and you will then also see what Saint4God and and many others have been trying to show and tell you,and good luck with that.

[edit on 27-1-2006 by gps777]

Well I read this, and it made me stop and think about what I was reading here:

You want evidence first?well believe,knock on Gods door and ask him,but if you are playing with God half heartedly you`ll be knocking and asking till you die.If you do it whole heartedly you will get an answer,if you realize He is real,then confess your a sinner,ask and call Christ to be your Lord,you will be changed in an instant.This is an experience that cannot be denied.

And I came to think that if you want to change something about yourself, and you do it wholeheartedly, of course you are going to be changed in an instant, because you committed yourself to it.
And if you fail, it's not because of lack of faith but merely because you did it only half-heartedly.
I don't see how god is responsible for your decisions?
Now, if you actually saw or felt something, well...I can feel stuff inside me as well, and I have experienced strange stuff, was it god, probably not, something else, maybe.

Originally posted by Toadmund
Well I read this, and it made me stop and think about what I was reading here:

Its seems to me you only thought of excuses that this is`nt true dont take that as an attack,if from my post that quote was all you thought about then you had also missed a lot of other hints that was there,and hints from other Christians posts.

Maybe this might explain what you did better,though i dont live in your head so i cant really know but here goes,if and when you started to even entertain the idea in contemplating that quote immediately every time you actually came close to acknowledging Gods existence a thought you made stopped you which was opposite to the original.

This very force or entity which stops you can be seen as Satan Himself as the negative in you,what ever the block is that you allow from seeing God is your choice to not believe.

If you saw your life as worthless compared to Gods Just Authority and Love which i did and do those blocks are easier to remove.

If you saw this to be true Satan is always on your heels and very much real as well.

I don't see how god is responsible for your decisions?

Who said He was responsible for my or your decisions?You and I are.

Now, if you actually saw or felt something, well...I can feel stuff inside me as well, and I have experienced strange stuff, was it god, probably not, something else, maybe.

My experience was stronger than quite a lot of Christians though others were just as strong if not stronger that i have gone to Church with,i can only tell you that from my experience,only when you accept it into your heart God will make Himself known to you,how large or small i guess thats up to God and the individual.

I would be ecstatic if God made himself known to me, in a manner that I can comprehend as meaning that he exists. Heck, I'd settle for ol' Nick for that matter. If Satan is real, then he sure is a sneaky fellow. They both are. I see amazing things on a regular basis, which has convinced me of the reality of a spiritual realm, an afterlife, magic, and miracles. But how does that in any way indicate to me that God, or Satan, are real?
Satan is probably the easier of the two to get a hold of, being so eager to buy souls and such, yet in twenty years of daring him to appear, he has been a no-show. If real, he is a cowardly, and stealthy sort of chap.
I am just about ready to give up on Satan making an appearance, and I am not spending any time cornering God just to see if he's real. If he is, he can set the time of the meeting, when its convenient for him. He would have better things to do than waste time showing me his ID. If he is real, that is.

I have had strange ghost type encounters blackguard and I agree, no indication of god, or satan.
And if anyone assume my beliefs in this because I tend to believe in spirits, well I don't believe god is needed in an 'afterlife' (if there is one) just as much as we can survive without god in the flesh.

I have had experiences that can be seen as a religious awakening, or a touch from god by a religious person, even a bright white light in my head that I can make which if I was religious I could say was god.

But guess what, still no god, no devil, none of that.

Just me playing with my own head, perhaps getting close to communication with spirits. who knows?
There may be evil spirits (satan, demons) and good spirits (god, angels), and god is the Universe, the true creator of us all.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
so pointing out logical conclusions that parts of a text contradict is worthless?

Pointing out someone else's "logical" conclusions is worthless. Only sheeple do that.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i highly doubt you read over every single annotation before you made your statement, so please stop spewing out bull, okay?

I believe I have a working knowledge of the Bible, unlike a web jockey who goes for every quote that can be used to tool others towards his/her own end. I'm not "spewing bull", I'm saying read the book yourself and the answer is in there. Draw your own conclusions instead of depending on someone else's.

[edit on 31-1-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

Thanks for not answering the question...

My thoughts exactly! Please address the points raised in my last post.

Sorry, been busy. I think my time here on ATS will be reduced going forward due to job change and such.

Originally posted by mytym
Understanding the point is not the "word of God" it is the "point of God". Please tell me what your thinking is then?

I don't believe understanding the point of God is good enough. It should be pretty evident what the point is according to Him and/or the Book. I think understanding the word provides much better context surrounding the point....or maybe I'm not understanding your question.

Originally posted by mytym
If it was truly the word of God wouldn't it be unerstandable by all through all time?

Because God transcends all through all time. If it was only meant to be understood by people back then why do we refer to the Bible at all in our time?

It still applies, I'm just uncertain why it must be understandable to all people all througout time. I don't think man's rules apply here.

Originally posted by mytym
In the book of Genesis, with all the begats, remember, I mentioned this already.

I've heard the theory, but disagree. Not very substantial argument in my assessment.

Originally posted by mytym
I have a Bible that we used in religious studies at high school and it even has a timeline one of the pages on the back showing that the time the earth was created was 4,600 BC if I recall correctly.

Are you saying that not all Bible's are the word of God, such as the Bible I have?

No, if you change what it is saying (or anyone for that matter), it is no longer a reliable source. Translating is one thing, changing it is something entirely different.

Originally posted by mytym
If so, please tell me how I decide which Bibles are to be believed and which aren't?

The New International Version is my personal favorite, having been translated from original Hebrew and Greek texts by over 200 scholars who specialize in such. Also, I've spoke to those who have read the original texts, and they confirm. Further, you can always ask God for direction.

Originally posted by mytym
I don't recall mentioning the Universe, I was talking about Earth. Why would it not be verifiable, seeing as how it is written in the Bible,

That timeline you'd mentioned seems to have been added, as in, not in the original.

Originally posted by mytym
and the Bible requires no interpretation and is 100% accurate (according to you)?

Where did I say all books that man meddles with is 100% accurate? As far as the Bible is concerned, as in original text, that's sound stuff. Unsure? Test it.

Originally posted by mytym
If you don't think dinosaurs existed at the same time as humans then you must believe they were around for the 5? days between the time the world was created and the time Adam was created. Either you don't believe dinosaurs existed, or you don't believe the book of Genesis. Which one is it?

Wow, that's a very narrow ultimatum isn't it? It's written to God a day is a thousand years and a thousand years a day. I don't believe we have a proper understanding of how time works. General relativity talks well about it. Can't quite wrap my head around special relativity yet though. Again, don't know exactly how God put things together. If I did, you know what that would make me?

Originally posted by mytym
As you seem intent on ducking around the dinosaur issue, perhaps you can explain the following contradiction in the Bible:

In the book of Genesis it states that God put a limit on the maximum lifespan of a human being to 120 years. In the same book it states that Noah lived for 500 odd years! Even the Guiness Book of Records records the oldest person to have lived until the age of 122 last time I checked. Did God make a mistake?

Obviously your superior thinking is far above God...how did anyone miss this before?

Originally posted by mytym
I read up on the Bible and Noah actually lived 950 years, 350 of those after the 120 year statement! However as he was already past 120 at the time perhaps you discount this. The Bible also states many descendants of Abraham living several hundred years. Abraham himself is said to have lived 175 years. The Bible references are as follows:

Genesis 6:3
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he
is mortal ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."

Genesis 25:7
Altogether, Abraham lived a hundred and seventy-five years.

Please explain.

All I have is a theory about why, not a science...which I'm sure no-one wants to hear.

[edit on 31-1-2006 by saint4God]

saint4God:

Pointing out someone else's "logical" conclusions is worthless. Only sheeple do that.


LCKob:

I would differ with you on this saint4god ... given the situation that few ideas or permutations of ideas are truly new or original, much of what we know or accept on an intellectual and emotional level actually had its roots in past generations. This is not to say that we "plagerize" or intend to "steal" ideas ... or that we must come up with "original" ideas to be of any value ... but that one should not apply a derogatory name to a practice that in essense everyone uses in daily life ... how does a child obtain knowledge ... or how does an adult obtain knowledge in an area beyond career expertise ... in both cases, a valid alternative is to seek knowledge in others.

If you describe people as "sheeple" is it not a barbed commentary or even an insult?

For that matter, why does this thread always fall to name calling and mud slinging?

... and really does it matter who stated it?

... the mere fact that it has been purpetrated by a number of individuals is a testament to the lack of tolerance from all contributing parties.

For the religious ... "Turn the other cheek..."

For the non religious "Walk a mile in anothers shoes ..."


... and for BOTH ... The Golden Rule

"Do unto others as you would have done to you."



LCKob

Originally posted by LCKob
I would differ with you on this saint4god ... given the situation that few ideas or permutations of ideas are truly new or original, much of what we know or accept on an intellectual and emotional level actually had its roots in past generations. This is not to say that we "plagerize" or intend to "steal" ideas ... or that we must come up with "original" ideas to be of any value ... but that one should not apply a derogatory name to a practice that in essense everyone uses in daily life ... how does a child obtain knowledge ... or how does an adult obtain knowledge in an area beyond career expertise ... in both cases, a valid alternative is to seek knowledge in others.

I used the word "sheeple" since it's widely and frequently used here to describe Christians who think what they're told. My encouragement to the reader was to make their own assessments and not rely on other's interpretations. I understand the learning process and you've made a good point, though mine wasn't to ignore all other people, rather to come to one's own conclussions after reviewing many, many source materials and discussions.

Originally posted by LCKob
If you describe people as "sheeple" is it not a barbed commentary or even an insult?

"Sheeple" is the insult hurled at Christians here, but I've never seen a warning about it. Being that mytym is not Christian, and every Christian I know does not believe they think what they're told, the insult really applies to a group of people who do not in reality exist. It was a counter-play and apologize to anyone who took it seriously and/or personally as I thought it was clear that that was not the intent (as capped by the silly-face at the end). I shall "put my serious face" back on and stop playing.

Originally posted by LCKob
For that matter, why does this thread always fall to name calling and mud slinging?

That's a good question. My term was borrowed from it being used to describe me over and over again. More a play on the name given to me than anyone else. I guess sacrastic irony is not enjoyed by others as much as I enjoy it.

Originally posted by LCKob
... and really does it matter who stated it?

Nope, as I said. Funny how there's an oratory when I say it, but not a word when a non-believer does. This my friends, is a double standard. Enjoy.


[edit on 31-1-2006 by saint4God]

Saint4god:

Nope, as I said. Funny how there's an oratory when I say it, but not a word when a non-believer does. This my friends, is a double standard. Enjoy.

LCKob:

Speaking for myself ....

Think of it as an expectation based on our past interactions ... I try to judge people on an individual basis and in all honesty expected better of YOU. In the past, when such appeals to reason were voiced (by myself and others) your responses were positive and thus amenable to reason ... with a consequent (if temporary) change in manner.

Note also that I did bring it up to "those of the other side" on a number of threads (Truthseeka being a case in point) ...and tried to be equally inclusive even in this last post


What is the logic you may ask?

... it is this, I will appeal to reason to those who in past interactions have proven reasonable ... in the hopes that they or others will stop and thus "break the emotional circuit" which perpetuates the cycle of interactive "frictions".

In reality, I don't care which side does it (actually I had hoped both sides would do it)

... but barring that ...

if either side refuses to stoop to less than professional behavior then the resultant one sided onslaught should slow over time (for lack of reinforcement) or be addressed by the mods for the disruptive onesided behavior it is ...

... unlike the present situation of "tit for tat".

LCKob


[edit on 31-1-2006 by LCKob]

quote: Originally posted by saint4God
I don't believe understanding the point of God is good enough. It should be pretty evident what the point is according to Him and/or the Book. I think understanding the word provides much better context surrounding the point....or maybe I'm not understanding your question.

mytym:
No you haven't understood my question. My point is that if the Bible is only portraying the point God was trying to make, then it is not the literal word of God.

quote: Originally posted by saint4God
It still applies, I'm just uncertain why it must be understandable to all people all througout time. I don't think man's rules apply here.

mytym:
If it still applies then why isn't it written in a way that we can all understand in the present day without having to interpret and make assumptions?

quote: Originally posted by saint4God
I've heard the theory, but disagree. Not very substantial argument in my assessment.

mytym:
It's no theory. The Bible clearly indicates the lifespan of each generation enabling one to determine the maximum timespan from creation to present day. If it is the word of God, as you say, it is a substantial an argument as it gets. Furthermore I fail to see why this section in the Bible doesn't qualify for the base of a substantial argument, howewer the section in Exodus(?) you used to prove that there was a 2nd set of commandments, does qualify. Please tell me how I can tell which sections can build the base of a substantial argument and which can't?

quote: Originally posted by saint4God
No, if you change what it is saying (or anyone for that matter), it is no longer a reliable source. Translating is one thing, changing it is something entirely different.

mytym:
The Bible is in the same original state as it was when manufactured. I haven't changed it (or anyone for that matter) since it's production.

quote: Originally posted by saint4God
The New International Version is my personal favorite, having been translated from original Hebrew and Greek texts by over 200 scholars who specialize in such. Also, I've spoke to those who have read the original texts, and they confirm. Further, you can always ask God for direction.

mytym:
Could you please let me know where I can get a copy of the New International Version, seeing as how there are so many "fake" versions out there? I am well aware that I can always ask God for direction, but that is beside the point of this thread. If the Bible is the word of God then there all the direction I need should be contained within.

quote: Originally posted by saint4God
That timeline you'd mentioned seems to have been added, as in, not in the original.

mytym:
Perhaps you're right, nevertheless the dates can be accurately confirmed by the book of Genesis, using the method mentioned above.

quote: Originally posted by saint4God
Where did I say all books that man meddles with is 100% accurate? As far as the Bible is concerned, as in original text, that's sound stuff. Unsure? Test it.

mytym:
I am afraid I don't understand. Are you saying that some of the books in the Bible have been meddled with by man? If so, we are in agreeance! This is exactly the point I am trying to make! It is not the word of God, because man has meddled with them. I have tested the Bible's I have come across and all of them fail miserabley. Once again, please let me know how I can get hold of a copy of the original text so that I can perform these same tests on the "Real" version?

quote: Originally posted by saint4God
Wow, that's a very narrow ultimatum isn't it? It's written to God a day is a thousand years and a thousand years a day. I don't believe we have a proper understanding of how time works. General relativity talks well about it. Can't quite wrap my head around special relativity yet though. Again, don't know exactly how God put things together. If I did, you know what that would make me?

mytym:
I am merely following out the literal word of God written in the Bible, if you have a problem with the narrowness of the Ultimatem perhaps you should raise it with him. I don't believe I have ever seen it mentioned anywhere in the Bible that 1 day equals 1000 years. If that is indeed the case how can we decide where to implement the 1 to 1000 conversion and where to stick to a 1 to 1 conversion? If we are to decide for ourselves, then surely this would classify as an interpretation, thus it is not the literal word of God, is it?

quote: Originally posted by saint4God
Obviously your superior thinking is far above God...how did anyone miss this before?

mytym:
An answer to the question is all that is required here.

quote: Originally posted by saint4God
All I have is a theory about why, not a science...which I'm sure no-one wants to hear.

mytym:
I would like you to explain how it is possible that the following three points can all be true:
1. The Bible is the word of God
2. God doesn't lie.
3. Genesis says God imposed a maximum lifetime limit of 120 years on
man, yet Abraham lived for 175 years after this statement was made.

quote: Originally posted by saint4God
Sorry, been busy. I think my time here on ATS will be reduced going forward due to job change and such.

mytym:
Good luck in the new job, although I am going to miss the frequency of exchange we have had in the recent past on this thread.

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
I would be ecstatic if God made himself known to me, in a manner that I can comprehend as meaning that he exists. Heck, I'd settle for ol' Nick for that matter. If Satan is real, then he sure is a sneaky fellow.

I dont mean this in a disrespectful way I was doing this as i read your whole post,and sometimes this
Its obvious your teetering on the edge without entering in either because of you really dont want to believe or you have some type of block thats stopping you,there are even curses of generations that could be the cause of this on some people and they dont realize it.

Without knowledge of things your family believed or practiced as being against God could very much affect you without you knowing they would and will stop you from entering in,if not delt with and recognised or if you hold something back within yourself basiclly.

God and Satan being sneaky fellow`s was where i was falling about laughing,If you want to see God and Satan in person remember the concentration you made to have those thoughts in your post,whilst looking in a mirror,though my experience was spiritual and physical this is as all as you really should need.They will both be there believe it.

Christ on purpose fasted 40 days to be tempted by Satan and beat Him,other times Satan appears in people,one time in one of Christs own disciples,where Christ noticed the comment from the disciple to Christ was actually Satan talking through Him to get to Christ,it does`nt get any sneakier than that.Though Satan can be blatant as and straight in your face at you.These things never go away but have to when instructed and instructing it in Christs name.

These things may freak some people out but be assured everybody whether you actually believe in God or not experience these things without noticing them,except with demonic possession.Some people are very much demoniacally possessed which when prayed for with laying of hands with Holy Spirit it has to leave,some people you would never guess until prayed for in this manner have possessions, others like meek placid type people accept God and the Holy Spirit very smoothly and comfortably but yeah some have to go through Hell to receive it,and i dont mean grabbing someone off the street and forcing them to be prayed for:lolyeah i know what you were thinking"i`d chuck a fit too kinda thing)
It is ussually easier to accept if your poor weak sick depressed etc and willing to give your life to Christ but deffinetly not exclusive to,Christ states John 12:25 Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.So it does`nt surprise me when the sick poor etc come to God and now should`nt surprise or confuse you either.

Anyway read Christs words understand what and who He is and God is and what He stands for in the NT and you should be able to start to see.I hope this helps in some way.

Originally posted by mytym
If it still applies then why isn't it written in a way that we can all understand in the present day without having to interpret and make assumptions?

I think many of us can without interpretation and assumption and would greatly encourage doing exactly that. I think there is a small group of people (myself used to be included) who was filled with so much rage against God that it was impossible to read the Book with an open heart. Making interpretations and assumptions is inviting error I think and should not be done. It tells us enough word for word, so there's no need for that.

Originally posted by mytym
It's no theory. The Bible clearly indicates the lifespan of each generation enabling one to determine the maximum timespan from creation to present day.

Hehe, okay, whatevah.

Originally posted by mytym
If it is the word of God, as you say, it is a substantial an argument as it gets. Furthermore I fail to see why this section in the Bible doesn't qualify for the base of a substantial argument, howewer the section in Exodus(?) you used to prove that there was a 2nd set of commandments, does qualify. Please tell me how I can tell which sections can build the base of a substantial argument and which can't?

The ones that are clearly written. Not assumed nor interpreted.

Originally posted by mytym
Could you please let me know where I can get a copy of the New International Version, seeing as how there are so many "fake" versions out there?

Sure, I'll mail you mine. Do you have an address you're comfortable with me sending it to? (Please send U2U for confidentiality).

Originally posted by mytym
I am well aware that I can always ask God for direction, but that is beside the point of this thread.

One can verify, as I did, with God whether or not it is His word. For example, "God, is the Bible your word? Should I follow it and accept it as true?" Not that hard really. One should be patient as God responds in the vehicle He finds best to deliver the response.

Originally posted by mytym
If the Bible is the word of God then there all the direction I need should be contained within.

This is true, and many can take this approach. I wasn't one of them, but if you can, by all means and I'll shut up.

Originally posted by mytym
Perhaps you're right, nevertheless the dates can be accurately confirmed by the book of Genesis, using the method mentioned above.

It reminds me of the Bible code. If you can count every 7th letter, in the book of Job, it spells "My shoes are untied" or some such...

Originally posted by mytym
I am afraid I don't understand. Are you saying that some of the books in the Bible have been meddled with by man?

Nope.

Originally posted by mytym
If so, we are in agreeance!

Sorry I disappointed you.

Originally posted by mytym
This is exactly the point I am trying to make! It is not the word of God, because man has meddled with them. I have tested the Bible's I have come across and all of them fail miserabley.

Testing and searching for our perceptions of a flaw are not the same thing.

Originally posted by mytym
Once again, please let me know how I can get hold of a copy of the original text so that I can perform these same tests on the "Real" version?

Sure thing, see above.

Originally posted by mytym
I am merely following out the literal word of God written in the Bible, if you have a problem with the narrowness of the Ultimatem perhaps you should raise it with him.

We've talked. I don't think He and I is where the communication breakdown exists.

Originally posted by mytym
I don't believe I have ever seen it mentioned anywhere in the Bible that 1 day equals 1000 years.

Funny we're talking about it since I'm reading the epistles again and happened across it within the last week:

"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." - II Peter 3:8-10

The Book is chock full of good stuff, but I'd missed this one (or forgot about it) on my first read-through.

Originally posted by mytym
If that is indeed the case how can we decide where to implement the 1 to 1000 conversion and where to stick to a 1 to 1 conversion? If we are to decide for ourselves, then surely this would classify as an interpretation, thus it is not the literal word of God, is it?

It literally says a day is like a thousand years to God.

Originally posted by mytym
An answer to the question is all that is required here.

The answer is our human limitations on what we perceive as a possibility do not exist in this scenario.

Originally posted by mytym
I would like you to explain how it is possible that the following three points can all be true:
1. The Bible is the word of God

If you believe God is a physical "man in the sky" then I can see how this seems unlikely, however, God is. As He said, "I am" also, "the alpha and the omega" and "the beginning and the end". God is huge and exists in any form He wishes. One who has felt/witnessed a small part of His spirit at work should be able to attest to that.

Originally posted by mytym
2. God doesn't lie.

Some humans come close to always telling the truth, but slip now and then. He does not slip.

Originally posted by mytym
3. Genesis says God imposed a maximum lifetime limit of 120 years on
man, yet Abraham lived for 175 years after this statement was made.

Per above, our rules don't apply. It's not our game and we don't own the dice.

Originally posted by mytym
Good luck in the new job, although I am going to miss the frequency of exchange we have had in the recent past on this thread.

Thanks! I'll try, and totally appreciate the compliment. They're rare here and it sounds like there's some honest seeking which is why I certainly don't mind answering. I'll help however I can and hope you receive in abundance all the blessings possible.

[edit on 1-2-2006 by saint4God]

If the Bible tells us enough word for word and there is no need to interpret it then I'm understanding it correctly. In understanding the english language, each word means exactly the same thing regardless of what state my heart is in, therefore if the translation from Hebrew to English hasn't lost anything the contradictions as per the one in Genesis, exist and it is not the word of God as a result. If the translation has lost something then it ceases to be the word of God right there.

Feel free to look at your version of the original text and let me know if it mentions the lifespan of each of the descendants from Adam down. You may also want to let me know if these years have to be converted using the 1 day equals 1000 years rule, making Adam live until the age of 2,925,000 years? If it doesn't need to be enforced please let me know how you determined that it didn't apply in this occasion?

While you're at it, please also tell me how to determine which sections are "clearly written" and which are not so clear? Is this something to do with the ink they are written in, or the handwriting style? I'm not sure how to determine this. It sounds a lot like the unclear sections may need interpretation, thus not the literal word of God?

Never mind mailing me yours, but I appreciate the offer. However, perhaps you could just recite Genesis 6:3 and Genesis 25:7 here on this thread and we can analyse the contradiction, or lack thereof?

Believe it or not, as I mentioned in a much earlier post in this thread, I too believe in God. When I say this I don't mean "there must be something else out there" God, but the one and only God that everything in existence is a part of. I pray to him and speak to him constantly, and he has indicated to me that the Bible has no affiliation with him or Jesus and I should take as much or as little out of it as I see fit. You see I, like you, could not gain all the direction needed solely from the Bible, thus have already turned to God for the answers, thus how I know that the title of this thread rings true.

In regards to the 1 to 1000 conversion, once again I need you to clarify where this rule is to be implemented. For if it is to be implemented everywhere consistently, the contradiction still exists. If it doesn't then I need a reference to the key/legend in the Bible indicating how to decide where to implement it and where not to. If there isn't one, interpretation is needed, thus it is not the word of God. Pretty simple.

quote: Originally posted by saint4God
The answer is our human limitations on what we perceive as a possibility do not exist in this scenario.

mytym:
I agree completey with this statement, and as I mentioned in an earlier post, perhaps these questions are not able to be answered within in the confines of a 3-dimensional world and the logic confined to it. This is the most accurate answer I have read. Unfortunately this points squarely at the need for implementing the interpretation technique, and you know my thoughts on that.

I can attest to the existence of God, as mentioned earlier as I to have been the recipient of his interactions with me on countless occasions. However I don't see what relevance this has to the Bible? I also concur that God does not lie, which is why the Genesis verses don't agree with being the word of God. Once again, interpretation is the only way this book can doesn't violate the first two conditions.

PS: In case you are wondering, I mean no disrespect when I say I speak to God and receive feedback from him constantly. I am not being sarcastic, I really do, and the feedback is not in a conventional verbal sense as I'm sure you can appreciate. I find it most reassuring that God is aware of all my faults and weaknesses and could not bear (bare?) the thought of being without him.

Thankyou for your kind words and I wish you the same.

Yeah, posts are getting long, though you seemed like you wanted me to answer all your questions and don't mind accomodating if it helps.

Originally posted by mytym
If the Bible tells us enough word for word and there is no need to interpret it then I'm understanding it correctly.

Yeah, as long as one is reading the whole chapter...or better still, the book. The more inclusive of the whole picture, the better. I cannot look at a dot and tell you what part of a painting it belongs to.

Originally posted by mytym
Feel free to look at your version of the original text and let me know if it mentions the lifespan of each of the descendants from Adam down.

I've already gone through this exercise and have heard no new information that would encourage me to repeat and expect a different outcome.

Originally posted by mytym
You may also want to let me know if these years have to be converted using the 1 day equals 1000 years rule, making Adam live until the age of 2,925,000 years?

Hehe, I didn't say there was a temporal conversion table in 2 Peter. I said that we don't see time the same way God does.

Originally posted by mytym
If it doesn't need to be enforced please let me know how you determined that it didn't apply in this occasion?

Genesis doesn't date the beginning of the world any way you slice it. Sorry.

Originally posted by mytym
While you're at it, please also tell me how to determine which sections are "clearly written" and which are not so clear?

If it's in there, it's clearly written, if it's not, then it's not. No abstract thinking required for this.

Originally posted by mytym
Is this something to do with the ink they are written in, or the handwriting style? I'm not sure how to determine this. It sounds a lot like the unclear sections may need interpretation, thus not the literal word of God?

It is as it says it is. If it says "God said" then God said. If it says, "God carved out" then God carved out. If it says, "Paul, a servant of our Lord Jesus Christ, said" then Paul, a servant of our Lord Jesus Christ said. The chapters typically begin this way for ease in understanding who, what, when, and where.

Originally posted by mytym
Never mind mailing me yours, but I appreciate the offer. However, perhaps you could just recite Genesis 6:3 and Genesis 25:7 here on this thread and we can analyse the contradiction, or lack thereof?

Genesis 6:3 - Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."

Genesis 25:7 - Altogether, Abraham lived a hundred and seventy-five years.

And...the answer here in Genesis 24 - Abraham was now old and well advanced in years, and the LORD had blessed him in every way.

Interesting thing about blessings. When God provides a blessing, He goes "above and beyond" the normal expectations of man. God set a standard of 120 years, and per above, blessed Abraham beyond that standard. It wasn't the first time God blessed someone and would not be the last.

Originally posted by mytym
Believe it or not, as I mentioned in a much earlier post in this thread, I too believe in God. When I say this I don't mean "there must be something else out there" God, but the one and only God that everything in existence is a part of. I pray to him and speak to him constantly, and he has indicated to me that the Bible has no affiliation with him or Jesus and I should take as much or as little out of it as I see fit. You see I, like you, could not gain all the direction needed solely from the Bible, thus have already turned to God for the answers, thus how I know that the title of this thread rings true.

Your assumptions that you made about me aside, how did God indicate to you the Bible is not affiliated with him?

Originally posted by mytym
In regards to the 1 to 1000 conversion, once again I need you to clarify where this rule is to be implemented.

There was a group of people named the Pharisees who got caught up on the rules instead of understanding the meaning.

Originally posted by mytym
For if it is to be implemented everywhere consistently, the contradiction still exists. If it doesn't then I need a reference to the key/legend in the Bible indicating how to decide where to implement it and where not to. If there isn't one, interpretation is needed, thus it is not the word of God. Pretty simple.

Looks like you got it all figured out. Makes me wonder why we're even talking.

Originally posted by mytym
I agree completey with this statement, and as I mentioned in an earlier post, perhaps these questions are not able to be answered within in the confines of a 3-dimensional world and the logic confined to it. This is the most accurate answer I have read. Unfortunately this points squarely at the need for implementing the interpretation technique, and you know my thoughts on that.

We have to understand that the Bible doesn't say certain things and intentionally so.

Originally posted by mytym
I can attest to the existence of God, as mentioned earlier as I to have been the recipient of his interactions with me on countless occasions.

Excellent.

Originally posted by mytym
PS: In case you are wondering, I mean no disrespect when I say I speak to God and receive feedback from him constantly. I am not being sarcastic, I really do, and the feedback is not in a conventional verbal sense as I'm sure you can appreciate. I find it most reassuring that God is aware of all my faults and weaknesses and could not bear (bare?) the thought of being without him.

Thankyou for your kind words and I wish you the same.

Awesome. I'd like to ask you a question in regards to that relationship if you don't mind. Have you come to the place in your spiritual life where you know for certain if you were to die today you'd go to heaven? It is a topical question.

[edit on 1-2-2006 by saint4God]