NEWS: US Air Marshal Shoots Passenger on Flight from Columbia

jsobecky - the guy was in South America doing missionary work. He's an all right guy. Authorities stories are contradictory and are not substantiated by witnesses reports.

It stinks. Admit it.


.

Originally posted by loam

Originally posted by jsobecky
Block all you want, loam. You're only fooling yourself.

You're right, jsobecky, I no longer have any interest in disturbing your unfettered confidence in the supremacy of all the government tells you or in its expertise to get the job done "by the books..." :shk:

[edit on 8-12-2005 by loam]

You see what I mean, loam? You can't carry your end of a debate without getting personal.

I don't have "unfettered confidence" blah blah blah. I don't need it. I just need to point out where you were wrong, and your case tumbles down like a house of cards, of it's own accord.

Like....you're still dodging the discrepancies between TV and TIME.

Originally posted by soficrow
jsobecky - the guy was in South America doing missionary work. He's an all right guy. Authorities stories are contradictory and are not substantiated by witnesses reports.

It stinks. Admit it.

.

He's an all right guy? Says who? Did he pull any bi-polar nutties while he was down there?

Just because he is a man of the cloth doesn't mean he isn't human. Ask the Catholic Church. Or some of those UN Peacekeepers over there in Africa.

Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by soficrow
jsobecky - the guy was in South America doing missionary work. He's an all right guy. Authorities stories are contradictory and are not substantiated by witnesses reports.

It stinks. Admit it.

.

He's an all right guy? Says who?

Oh yeah. Sorry. It's not in the memos - just in the papers and out on the street. For example:

Man Shot By Air Marshall Called 'Nice Guy' By Neighbors

"He was a nice guy, always smiling, always talkative," said Louis Gunther, a neighbor who said he was watching Alpizar's home while he and his wife were on a missionary-type trip. "Everybody is talking about a guy I know nothing about."

"This whole neighborhood is shocked. ... Totally uncharacteristic of the guy," said Alex McLeod, 16, who lives three houses down on the opposite side of the street from Alpizar.

***

Wisconsin relatives 'in shock' after man shot by air marshal

Brad Jentsch of Sheboygan, Wis., another brother-in-law, told WITI-TV of Milwaukee that ...

"He was a very warm and loving husband to his wife, Anne,'' he said.

"In the 20 plus years that we've known him there has never been any kind of an aggressive bone in his body.''

Go ahead - rip him apart. He's not just a vulnerable greaser anymore, he's dead too.

No one will try to stop you except us chickens.

Go ahead - rip him apart. He's not just a vulnerable greaser anymore, he's dead too.

No one will try to stop you except us chickens.

Is that what this is all about?

Originally posted by loam
This guy tested positive for explosives and they let him go?????

Do you have ANY idea how many substances, or innocent reasons there are for someone to test positive for explosives? I know what's in TATP, and there are probably 50 reasons it would get a positive hit, not one of which has to do with explosives. Did you know that SUNSCREEN will get a positive hit?

There is also a video link included of additional witness accounts.


[edit on 8-12-2005 by loam]

[edit on 9-12-2005 by Thomas Crowne]

And then we have this:

Miami Bomb Incident Starts to Look Suspicious
Eyewitness says Alpizar never mentioned bomb, passengers were more afraid of Air Marshals putting guns to their heads

Paul Joseph Watson | December 9 2005

The shooting of Rigoberto Alpizar at Miami International Airport stinks like a giant festering rat just two days after it happened. Alpizar never screamed that he had a bomb and passengers relate that they were more frightened of Air Marshals putting guns to their head and threatening them not to look at what was taking place on board American Airlines Flight 924. For those of us who researched the brutal murder of Charles De Menezes in London, striking parallels have begun to emerge.


Tragic indeed.

I knew a couple of people who have had bipolar disorders, and even with medication taken on a regular basis, they can still have manic and depressive episodes, where their medication needs to be adjusted. These people were always afraid of the medication not being in the right balance and took their medications religiously until they started to swing, then they had little control to make sure that their medication was taken properly. Both of them had at various times in their lives had to be readmitted into hospital to have them cared for until the medication balanced out the manic or depressive phase. Some medications require that they have a blood test every month or so to make sure that the levels of medication in the blood are optimal. At least that was how it was explained to me. I can picture the man being away from his regular doctors and knowing he was slipping into an unhealthy state grasping at straws trying to make others understand he was in trouble and not being able to say it the right way. It is a terrible event .

I am a LEO and for those of You that don't know what that is.
But what I would like to know is what YOU guys that down the Air Marshal would do if it was You there! You have the lives of 100s of people on your hands if something goes BOOM or BANG for that matter

Thanks for relating that, SparkietheWonderSnail. It helps to hear from people who have seen first-hand the effects of bipolar.

You have voted Sparkie the Wondersnail for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Marshals', witnesses' accounts differ on jet bomb threat claim

...

Investigators are trying to piece together the final moments before the shooting as questions are rising about whether Alpizar made a bomb threat.

The marshals say Alpizar announced he was carrying a bomb before being killed.

However, no other witness has publicly concurred with that account.

More...

Just to be clear...

BTW, the video link referred to above may be found in this article.

Passengers Didn't Hear Alpizar Say 'Bomb'

The airline passenger shot to death by federal marshals who said he made a bomb threat was agitated even before boarding and later appeared to be desperate to get off the plane, some fellow travelers said. One passenger said he "absolutely never heard the word 'bomb' at all" during the uproar as the Orlando-bound flight prepared to leave Miami on Wednesday...

Alpizar's brother, speaking from Costa Rica, said he would never believe the shooting was necessary.

"I can't conceive that the marshals wouldn't be able to overpower an unarmed, single man, especially knowing he had already cleared every security check," Carlos Alpizar told The Orlando Sentinel.

Some passengers said they noticed Alpizar while waiting to get on the plane. They said he was singing "Go Down Moses" as his wife tried to calm him. Others said they saw him having lunch and described him as restless and anxious, but not dangerous.

"The wife was telling him, 'Calm down. Let other people get on the plane. It will be all right,'" said Alan Tirpak, a passenger.

Some passengers, including John McAlhany, said they believe Alpizar was no threat to anyone.

McAlhany, a 44-year-old construction worker who was returning home from a fishing trip in Key West, said he was sitting in Seat 21C when he noticed a commotion a few rows back.

"I heard him saying to his wife, 'I've got to get off the plane,'" McAlhany said. "He bumped me, bumped a couple of stewardesses. He just wanted to get off the plane."

Alpizar ran up the aisle into the first-class cabin, where marshals chased him onto the jetway, McAlhany said.

McAlhany said he "absolutely never heard the word 'bomb' at all."

"The first time I heard the word 'bomb' was when I was interviewed by the FBI," McAlhany said. "They kept asking if I heard him say the B- word. And I said, 'What is the B-word?' And they were like, 'Bomb.' I said no. They said, 'Are you sure?' And I am."

Added another passenger, Mary Gardner: "I did not hear him say that he had a bomb..."

The more I read about this the angrier I get!

The article continues with a statement from John Amat, a national operations vice president of the Federal Law Enforcement Officers Association, which includes air marshals in its membership, saying that shooting to maim or injure _ rather than kill _ is not an option for federal agents..."The person was screaming, saying he would blow up the plane, reaching into his bag _ they had to react," Amat said.

If he was screaming he had a bomb, as everyone who wants to justify this shooting says, then why have NO passengers come forward to verify that fact?

Wrongful death...no doubt about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Airplane crew and marshals were FULLY aware of his condition before he was shot several times. Precautions should have been taken by the marshal and crew. I'm sure most if not all the passengers wouldn't have mind being inconvenienced if the appropiate actions were taken to control the guy.

Maybe the victim said a word that sounded like 'bomb' and the 'rookie' marshal reacted...thinking he said 'bomb'...the guy had an accent, remember. Or maybe, the marshal overheard someone else say bomb and she reacted. In any case, the marshal panicked and then reacted.

Whoever thinks the marshal was justified seriously needs re-think the situation and image yourself as the vicitim, as the wife, the flight crew, the passengers and the marshal. The marshal basically didn't think before he/she killed that man.

Also think about this....the vicitim wasn't a crimainal.... but he definitely was someone's child, brother, husband. Whether or not
he had a medical condition, he life was unjustly taken from him. I can't even imaging losing someone I love this way.......very sad...

Air marshalls don't "panic" and shoot someone. They have been travelling on planes for decades, and this is one of the only shootings to ever happen. How exactly where they "perfectly aware" of his condition beforehand? Because his wife was shouting "My husband! My husband!" in SPANISH? His own FAMILY didn't know he was bipolar. Yes this appears to have been less than it was made out to be, but that doesn't mean the marshall knew about his condition before hand, or was in a panic when she shot him. Don't forget there were TWO marshalls at the time, are you saying that both of them panicked?

How many passengers where on the runway when he was shot?

Is it not possible that none of the passengers heard his bomb comment because he made it on the runway, where the Marshals chased him after running out of the plane.

Obviously he didn't have a bomb and was troubled by a bipolar disorder that was affecting his actions before he was shot. NONE of these things were known to the Marshals before they chased an anxious, uneasy passenger shoving people out of his way before he ran out of the plane onto the tarmac. If at that point he did mention a bomb and started reaching into his bag, I say it's an unfortunate but justified shooting from the Marshals perspective.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Air marshalls don't "panic" and shoot someone. They have been travelling on planes for decades, and this is one of the only shootings to ever happen. How exactly where they "perfectly aware" of his condition beforehand? Because his wife was shouting "My husband! My husband!" in SPANISH? His own FAMILY didn't know he was bipolar. Yes this appears to have been less than it was made out to be, but that doesn't mean the marshall knew about his condition before hand, or was in a panic when she shot him. Don't forget there were TWO marshalls at the time, are you saying that both of them panicked?

Say what!? Of course they panicked!! Or... they were so nervous they made a bad call which I equate to panicking. From what I read these people were only marshals for a few years not decades. Even if they were marshals for at least a decade..how often do you think they actually fire their gun or even draw it.

When you're in a situation where someone "might" kill you and you have your gun pulled knowing you might have to kill that person your adrenaline will start pumping. Once it starts pumping it becomes very difficult to think straight especially when you feel that you don't have time to consider the pros/cons of any options you might have. In other words, in a situation like this your instinct of self-preservation kicks in. Self-preservation is essentially keeping one’s self alive by 'avoiding' danger...when it comes to instead trying to take control, instead of “avoiding”, the situation becomes even more difficult and almost anything can happen.

People make mistakes...I see it all the time regardless of how much training you have. This situation right here is clearly a mistake on either the marshal's part or a mistake on the way they were trained.

I've read several articles where it said the pilot informed the wife that a marshal on the plane was aware of the situation. Regardless if was bi-polar or not there was plenty of time and options the marshal could have taken to avoid using their gun. Maybe their training didn't cover how to handle this situation....almost every training program imaginable is updated/revised every year, especially when someone loses their life.

Let’s take another stab at why training programs are updated. Several years ago some people being arrested died while in a choke. I remember when this was first being reported some of the reasons given (by police) were laughable. Some examples were like…”Victim died from previously undiagnosed heart condition” or “Victim died because of the drugs in his body which caused respiratory failure during the struggle”.
It was later determined that the choke holds is what was killing the persons being arrested.

Don’t get me wrong…I totally believe in marshals being on planes…and the use of deadly force when needed, and most shootings are justified. However, this is a clear case where a mistake happened either by the marshal or by the training they went though and furthermore the situation could have been avoided.

There have been air marshalls on US flights since the 80s, just it was a very small number only on select flights. Other countries have had air marshalls since the 70s. There have been very very few shootings by air marshalls through all that time. The US program was rapidly expanded after 9/11. They were there BEFORE 9/11 just only on select overseas flights.

[edit on 12/9/2005 by Zaphod58]

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Air marshalls don't "panic" and shoot someone.

Why is it impossible to entertain that this one might have?

They have been travelling on planes for decades,

How long had the Marshal in question been on the job? Moreover, the fact there have been marshals for decades does nothing to address the experience of any one individual. It's not like they are the Borg, sharing some collective experience...

Because his wife was shouting "My husband! My husband!" in SPANISH?

There were plenty of eyewitness accounts that indicate she shouted in ENGLISH.

His own FAMILY didn't know he was bipolar.

Wrong. His brother-in-law did not know. Obviously his wife knew, and I read a reference that his mother-in-law knew. In any event, what significance does that have? In my view, it is irrelevant who knew.

Yes this appears to have been less than it was made out to be,

That sounds like a free "pass" to the feds who IMMEDIATELY asserted an entirely different fact pattern to justify the shooting. I'd call that lying.

Don't forget there were TWO marshalls at the time, are you saying that both of them panicked?

Yup. One spurring the other is not beyond the realm of possibility.

Who knew is VERY important actually, since it has been said the air marshalls knew he was bipolar.

And no, air marshalls aren't the Borg, but the fact that they've been flying on planes for decades, and there have been few if any other shootings, says a lot about their training, and the fact that they AREN'T bloodthirsty animals as soneone else said earlier in the thread.

[edit on 12/9/2005 by Zaphod58]