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NEWS: US Air Marshal Shoots Passenger on Flight from Columbia

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posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 09:31 PM
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The reason I don't think that the air marshalls panicked in this situation is because to be hired for an air marshall position, you have to transfer from a previous law enforcement job, go through a rigorous screening process, and then attend months of training before being allowed to fly with a weapon on the plane. If someone was prone to panicking, then it should have come out at some point during their training.




posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 09:36 PM
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Originally posted by Zaphod58
Who knew is VERY important actually, since it has been said the air marshalls knew he was bipolar.


Yet, there is the point to made that several passengers report the wife having yelled her husband was sick while he exited the plane (something the marshals would have presumably heard), but that no passenger heard the man claim he had a bomb (something the Marshal's claim they did hear).




And no, air marshalls aren't the Borg, but the fact that they've been flying on planes for decades, and there have been few if any other shootings, says a lot about their training, and the fact that they AREN'T bloodthirsty animals as soneone else said earlier in the thread.


Just to be clear. I do not think the marshals are bloodthirsty animals. They are on those planes to protect us. BUT, what I do have a problem with is that they LIED about this incident, which in this case makes me think they are currently far more interested in protecting themselves...



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 09:50 PM
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It seems to me the they TCB.I mean "Who" (in their right mind)would say he/she had a bomb?Unless he wanted to "test" the powers that be.
Well guess what happened?Its not that I believe in government taking our "Rights " away( like chipping at a flint rock)but,this guy was ready to leave this plano,audios.It did tighten the belt of security a little tighter though.Now, we will have to be checked(literally our DNA)sized up and profiled before whe enter an airplane...Wow!
Just a thought...
Gavin6



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 10:01 PM
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Adding just one more point...

For them to have assumed he had a bomb (or some other weapon)- even in the face of the wife's clear real time indications that he was ill- doesn't bode well for their sense of how effective security checks are at the airport.

Food for thought...



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 10:05 PM
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I could tell you stories that would convince you to never get on a plane again for the rest of your life. Our airport was the #2 airport in the nation when it was private screening, then the government rigged the tests to keep the incumbent screeners from getting hired, and it plummeted. I watched four screeners and a supervisor arguing over what was the threat in the bag, after a test, for five minutes. I walked up and looked at the bag for less than a second, and found every component of the IED. On CBT tests I could do 20 bags, in 12 seconds with 100%. My lowest score was two wrong. Now that it's federal, I bet they can't do 20 bags in five minutes with 100%. Their "training" is the biggest farce I've ever seen.



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 11:36 PM
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There's a problem with this story. It's not being told correctly.

That HS Officer is a real HERO, responsible for saving hundreds of lives.

We're too used to seeing expensive really well made MOVIES with great special effects, and TV that make these "situations" look like a cakewalk for "the cops" and make the "bad guys" look like REAL "bad" guys. 9 times out of 10 it really isn't though, and cops don't have it as cool and easy going as the guys on NYPD blue or whatever the heck they call it these days. Their job is really tough as hell and they're WAY too underpaid for what they do.

I have friends who are cops and believe me when I tell you- they are NOT jack booted thugs, ignorant cowboys, and they are NOT against us. They are really out there busting their butts trying to "protect and serve" the people of this Nation, and to be frank, they catch a lot of crap for it from everyone from the top down. (the working cops, cops on the beat, like the plainclothes guy in this story)

He'll be on leave for no telling how long while an investigation is done, and that means no work, no guns, period. He'll get to fill out a mountain of paperwork, and then a mountain of paperwork for every paper inside that report. He may stand trial if some liberal wild-eyed snot nosed punk fresh out of law school US Atty grabs hold of it and wants to make a name for himself. It'll be on his permanent record he shot someone, and also, believe it or not, he will endure trauma from the shooting. He will need counselling, maybe medication to help him sleep, he may have nightmares, reliving the incident over and over again for years to come. it won't be easy for him, it's HARD on these cops. He'll have to live with this for the rest of his life. This wasn't something that he wanted to do, he HAD to do it, it was his job, he was protecting others. He had no choice. If he had to do it over again, he would think of 1,000 different scenario's before shooting, then probably shoot. There's just no alternative when you're placed in a tense defensive situation with that many people and your job is to protect them.

Point is, guys, I can identify with the man on the plane because I am bi-polar, but I find myself agreeing totally 100% with the Homeland Security Officers. When the man tells you to shut up, sit down, and be quiet, and he has a gun in his hand, YOU BETTER BY-GOD COMPLY OR HE'S GOING TO BLOW YOUR SORRY MANIC STUPID @$$ AWAY. I can say that 'cause I'm manic-depressive. Or bi-polar whichever you want to call it. Still, it's NO excuse for getting on a plane load of people and yelling "I HAVE A BOMB!". That's like going to the crowded theatre and yelling "THE BUILDING IS ON FIRE!" - right? No brainer. I hated to put it in such harsh seemingly over reactive terms given the "tragedy" but think what if it were a real bomb? How was he supposed to know?

Have you ever heard of a fellow named Ted Nugent? Go look at his website tednugent.com... - Uncle Teddy can very well explain why cops are good and we need to support 'em. (warning label, if you think I got outrageous? Uncle Teddy breaks the barrier, you have been forewarned...)

Lithium or no, I feel really sorry for the guy who got shot, I really do and I hope he prayed to Jesus before the officer snuffed him, but you don't get on a plane and start acting all nervous and stuff and start yelling you have a bomb and start running from cops- post 9-11. Hell my dog even knows that, and she's even a yellow dog (Sorry to all my democrat friends out there, I am a Republican though my dog is a democrat) Knowing what I know about bi-polar, I've had it since 1991, and been "on medication" and "off" a couple times, (and hospitalized) I really doubt that bi-polar was all that was wrong with him. I think there must have been something more to this. Paranoid Schitzophrenia (sp) or something perhaps, a misdiagnosed mental patient maybe? Who knows. He seemed delusional or paranoid, perhaps he was on some form of drugs? I just can't see someone who's manic going THAT far, but then again, I've done some crazy %$#@ (or so they tell me


BUT still, I don't think it boils down to whether the officer had a "right" to do it, of course he had a right to or he wouldn't have been on a plane with a handgun in plain clothes to begin with. Bottom line, he had to make a decision on a plane full of passengers, with a guy acting like me when I get all weirded out on my manic phase, and yelling he has a bomb, and reaching into his sack, and running... tick tock tick tock... what would you do? 200-300 people vs. 1 obvious lunatic or worse with a bomb within reach with no telling what kind of destructive capability? ALL OF THIS INFORMATION POURING thru the officers mind, in just a few split seconds. Can you imagine the strain? The headache? That kind of data processing would put the average person into a coma or a psychotic episode, but cops are trained to process it all very thouroughly, very efficiently, very quickly, and they allow their training to take over, and they operate like a well oiled machine, if you've seen them in action you have to admire them. They do what they do and they do it well. Sure there are "bad cops", and I am not even going to get into that, but there are way many more good ones, and great ones, and HEROES, like this one who probably may have saved a whole plane full or more of people IF that WERE a real bomb.

He did the RIGHT thing. No argument. He's a real American HERO in my book, and he's to be commended with full honors. Although, the world may not be any safer, because the guy probably wasn't any real threat, maybe we all may learn something from this. I know I sure have, that I am DAMN SURE going to take ALL of my medications, on time, every day, and also am going to be a good little boy when I get on airplanes. A VERY GOOD Boy. An ANGEL in fact... and my carry on's will be tucked away neatly in the overheads where they're supposed to be, and I will not argue with flight attendants.

Matthew...



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 08:05 AM
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Originally posted by webbtexas
There's a problem with this story. It's not being told correctly.

That HS Officer is a real HERO, responsible for saving hundreds of lives.




Hmmm. That's exactly what all the press releases and media are saying.

Some of us just think there obviously is more to the story - and want the contradictions and misrepresentations cleared up. Honestly.

Damage control and media manipulation are taking us straight to a place where we do NOT want to go:


Man accused of killing U.S. nun in Brazil claims self-defense

BELEM, Brazil — The man accused of killing American nun and rain forest defender Dorothy Stang told a jury Friday that he acted in self-defense after mistaking her Bible for a gun.

Rayfran das Neves Sales is accused of killing Stang, 73, with six shots from a .38-caliber revolver on Feb. 12 on a muddy road deep in the heart of the Amazon rain forest.

Stang was killed in Para state, which is notorious across Brazil for corruption and land-related violence that in the past 20 years has claimed the lives of some 534 people. Only eight killers ever have been convicted, and many see the trial as a test of whether Brazil is serious about prosecuting land-related killings.








posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 01:10 PM
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Originally posted by webbtexas
There's a problem with this story. It's not being told correctly.

That HS Officer is a real HERO, responsible for saving hundreds of lives.

We're too used to seeing expensive really well made MOVIES with great special effects, and TV that make these "situations" look like a cakewalk for "the cops" and make the "bad guys" look like REAL "bad" guys.


You actually think that marshal is a hero!? That's pretty damn funny. You don't even leave a door open the idea that the marshal made ia mistake. Mistakes happen all the time in all professions with even years of experience. I've seen engineers make mistakes doing something as routine as update a database. For a marshal facing a not so routine and not so common 'terrorist' hijacking/suicide bomber situation, training will only get you so far before you start making decisions you THINK are right. This is clearly a case where the marshal made the wrong decision because the situation could have been avoided earlier.

I'm not saying the marshal was all "shoot first asking questions later" aka cowboy, I'm sure the marshal had good intentions but in the end they made
a really bad call because they panicked or were nervous. It's as simple...and as clear....as that.



[edit on 12/11/05 by FredT]



posted on Dec, 11 2005 @ 03:05 AM
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I posted this in another thread, but thought I should post here as well...

I was just watching the video link found within this article:

White House backs air marshals' actions


The link is entitled (Watch video surveillance tape of the man in the Ecuador airport -- 1:34)

What I find fascinating is look at those camera angles. In some portions, the shots even appear to pan, as if he was being followed by the camera...


Look how comprehensive this video is!

At the end, there also seems to be some problem he is having with the person in the white hat...

Very odd.

[edit on 11-12-2005 by loam]



posted on Dec, 11 2005 @ 03:13 AM
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Originally posted by j619pinoy
I'm sure the marshal had good intentions but in the end they made
a really bad call because they panicked or were nervous. It's as simple...and as clear....as that.


Bad call? Please.......... Number one who are you to judge the actions of someone in that situation. I for one am glad that if a passanger is making "threats" that he has a bomb, would you want to be on that plane hoping that the guy does not have a bomb
.

No the Air Marshall is a here is a hero. In this day and age who want to take the chance
Do me a favor and NOT provide security for any air travel I do



posted on Dec, 11 2005 @ 03:15 AM
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Originally posted by j619pinoy
I'm not saying the marshal was all "shoot first asking questions later" aka cowboy, I'm sure the marshal had good intentions but in the end they made
a really bad call because they panicked or were nervous. It's as simple...and as clear....as that.

[edit on 12/11/05 by FredT]


There is nothing I love more than armchair quarterbacks who will sit back and say how some guy screwed up. Especially when it is the shooter who will be having sleepless nights and might eventually smoke his .40 cal, not you.
The guy did just fine, he did it by the book, there was no reason forthe guy to think he wasn't stopping someone from killing a boatload of innocent people.

Quick, pop a top while you feel the need to throw rocks at someone who is feeling lower than whale crap right now, even though he did right and nobody sitting in their recliner has a right to say otherwise.



posted on Dec, 11 2005 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by j619pinoy
I'm sure the marshal had good intentions but in the end they made
a really bad call because they panicked or were nervous. It's as simple...and as clear....as that.


Bad call? Please.......... Number one who are you to judge the actions of someone in that situation. I for one am glad that if a passanger is making "threats" that he has a bomb, would you want to be on that plane hoping that the guy does not have a bomb
.

No the Air Marshall is a here is a hero. In this day and age who want to take the chance
Do me a favor and NOT provide security for any air travel I do




It is nice to see that some people still know how the real would works out there.

1, I ask once more. What would YOU have done if you were the Officer? Keep in mind that The person in front you will not put down a bag that might have a some kind of weapon in it. That not only your life might be in danger but all the lives of the people on the plane.
What would you have done? Sorry to say from just what I have seen and read and not being there, I would have done the some thing. I would not put the lives of others on the line over someone that was very upset and to have said he has a wepon in his bag and WILL NOT DROP IT.
Don't forget that the Air Marshal life has now chaged for the rest of her life to. She had to take a life to save others. She has to live with that. Do you people know how that feels? For the some that do know where I come from and for the ones that don't....... There are no words to say how one feels.



posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by j619pinoy
I'm sure the marshal had good intentions but in the end they made
a really bad call because they panicked or were nervous. It's as simple...and as clear....as that.


Bad call? Please.......... Number one who are you to judge the actions of someone in that situation. I for one am glad that if a passanger is making "threats" that he has a bomb, would you want to be on that plane hoping that the guy does not have a bomb
.

No the Air Marshall is a here is a hero. In this day and age who want to take the chance
Do me a favor and NOT provide security for any air travel I do


Hellz freakin yeah it was a bad call. You think the marshal made a good decision? That's 100% bunk! I'm judging no more than anyone else who says the marshal made the right decision. An innocent/possibly mentally ill man was killed and you think that's okay? What if your brother, father, or son was in that situation? Wouldn't you prefer the marshal to take precautions rather than simply wait for a possible situation to arise?

Look.......if the several newpapers I read are even a bit accurate then the pilots and marshal knew that the passenger was sick or potentially a threat early on. They could have simply handcuffed the passenger for the remainder of the flight or even checked whatever carry on luggage he may have taken. Besides, as far as everyone else is saying only the marshal said the word 'bomb'. Everyone else, including the passengers never heard the victim say 'bomb'.

You idea of 'security' is pretty damn scary because basically you're saying the security was in the right to shoot when they had plenty of time to diffuse the situation to prevent a shooting.

Edit: Censor circumvention.

[edit on 12-12-2005 by intrepid]



posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 03:07 AM
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So in this case we must believe that EVERYONE is guilty till proved innocent ?

What a joke, stupid metality.
Another innocent man was murdered for nothing, exactly like the poor brazilian in UK.

And instead of wasting money in killer agents, why not invest money in some really usefull equipment to check explosives during the checkin ?

Prevention is the solution, any other way to control situations like that will end in tragedy.

[edit on 13/12/05 by Krpano]



posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 03:18 AM
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Because if someone REALLY wants to get something on a plane, they're going to. You can have the best equipment in the world, but if I REALLY want to get something onto a plane, I'll find a way to.



posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 04:00 AM
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Hmm... Well, sure, an ounce of prevention is certainly worth a pound of cure, but it is also true that:

- things will often be smuggled into places where they shouldn't
- things will often go wrong, regardless of policy or procedure
- tragedies will occur without malice, forethought, or intent
- the rights of the many will be weighed in favour of the collatoral damage of the few

Welcome to inescapable life certainties.

Zip



posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 04:22 AM
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Jeeze, after reading this entire thread through, I thought that I would add a few more things, but I'm sleepy, so I'll just say this ---

WOW, you are SOOOOO quick to call someone a hero. You have no idea what a "hero" is. Hah!

Hero... *Laugh*

HERO! Hehehehe... Hero, they say...

Hero...

HERO. Yep.

I dunno, when I think of heroes, I think of seventeen year old medics storming Normandy beach and stopping to help the wounded, after defecating in their pants from fear of machine gun fire... I guess times have changed.

Zip



posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 04:52 AM
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Thoughts From The Peanut Gallery

1. These are not the best times to scare people on airplanes.

2. I'm not qualified to pass judgment on people I don't know who acted in situations for which I don't have all the facts.

3. As best I can tell, no one else is, either.

4. That doesn't seem to stop any of us from habitually doing it anyway.

5. In fact, that's basically all we do around here.





posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 05:13 AM
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I think Alex Jones Nailed it, when he said:

Public Executions make you feel SAFE!

Shoot a Man from time to time, and the People will belive that they are Safe and Secure and that the Goverment is "Protecting" them against the Evils of Terrorism.

And it's nice to test the skills of Marshals and Police Officers.



posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 05:41 AM
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If you see someone suspicious, shoot them in the head and become an instant hero; make up story about a bomb, etc and people will pat you on the back and say: "Job well done, that's another terrorist suspect dealt with in the only way possible".



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