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NEWS: US Air Marshal Shoots Passenger on Flight from Columbia

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posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 03:01 PM
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Originally posted by dgtempe
Jsobecky, on Fox right now they interviewed a man who was on 24a. He says that he NEVER heard the word bomb, and that the first time he heard of it was when they were taken to a room and asked had they heard the man mention a bomb? He emphasized he did not hear anythhing, nor anyone he came in contact with.

He plainly insinuated that the "bomb" story was something the FBI agents brought up.

There is word that the passen gers in first class heard him say "bomb" however, no one has come forth directly in an interview to claim this. I am sure a patsy will deliver a good verification in first class.

dg, he was 13 rows further back from first class, so that was why his hearing was questioned.

I watched that segment also.


Are there any medical people that can answer the question: can a bi-polar person get so unstable after missing just a single dose of his meds? Everything I've ever heard about psyche meds was that they take some time (weeks) of regular dosage before they begin to affect your system.

Can someone confirm or deny that?

[edit on 8-12-2005 by jsobecky]




posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 03:08 PM
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Still - NO witnmesses said anything about a bomb threat - which they would have done considering the climate of fear we live in. Gardner didn't either, until after she talked to authorities.

The stories really don't wash. I do wonder if this was a case of mistaken identity - or maybe something else connected to anti-AFTA activities in Ecuador, Columbia or Peru.


.



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 03:38 PM
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Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"

A passenger on Flight 924 gives his account of the shooting and says Rigoberto Alpizar never claimed to have a bomb

At least one passenger aboard American Airlines Flight 924 maintains the federal air marshals were a little too quick on the draw when they shot and killed Rigoberto Alpizar as he frantically attempted to run off the airplane shortly before take-off.

"I don't think they needed to use deadly force with the guy," says John McAlhany, a 44-year-old construction worker from Sebastian, Fla. "He was getting off the plane." McAlhany also maintains that Alpizar never mentioned having a bomb.

"I never heard the word 'bomb' on the plane," McAlhany told TIME in a telephone interview. "I never heard the word bomb until the FBI asked me did you hear the word bomb. That is ridiculous." Even the authorities didn't come out and say bomb, McAlhany says. "They asked, 'Did you hear anything about the b-word?'" he says. "That's what they called it."

When the incident began McAlhany was in seat 24C, in the middle of the plane. "[Alpizar] was in the back," McAlhany says, "a few seats from the back bathroom. He sat down." Then, McAlhany says, "I heard an argument with his wife. He was saying 'I have to get off the plane.' She said, 'Calm down.'"

Alpizar took off running down the aisle, with his wife close behind him. "She was running behind him saying, 'He's sick. He's sick. He's ill. He's got a disorder," McAlhany recalls. "I don't know if she said bipolar disorder [as one witness has alleged]. She was trying to explain to the marshals that he was ill. He just wanted to get off the plane."

McAlhany described Alpizar as carrying a big backpack and wearing a fanny pack in front. He says it would have been impossible for Alpizar to lie flat on the floor of the plane, as marshals ordered him to do, with the fanny pack on. "You can't get on the ground with a fanny pack," he says. "You have to move it to the side."

By the time Alpizar made it to the front of the airplane, the crew had ordered the rest of the passengers to get down between the seats. "I didn't see him get shot," he says. "They kept telling me to get down. I heard about five shots."

McAlhany says he tried to see what was happening just in case he needed to take evasive action. "I wanted to make sure if anything was coming toward me and they were killing passengers I would have a chance to break somebody's neck," he says. "I was looking through the seats because I wanted to see what was coming.

"I was on the phone with my brother. Somebody came down the aisle and put a shotgun to the back of my head and said put your hands on the seat in front of you. I got my cell phone karate chopped out of my hand. Then I realized it was an official."

In the ensuing events, many of the passengers began crying in fear, he recalls. "They were pointing the guns directly at us instead of pointing them to the ground," he says "One little girl was crying. There was a lady crying all the way to the hotel."

McAlhany said he saw Alpizar before the flight and is absolutely stunned by what unfolded on the airplane. He says he saw Alpizar eating a sandwich in the boarding area before getting on the plane. He looked normal at that time, McAlhany says. He thinks the whole thing was a mistake: "I don't believe he should be dead right now."




Any comments? Done by the book, eh? Yup...


I love the part about how they treated all the other passengers....


[edit on 8-12-2005 by loam]



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 04:08 PM
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Great find loam.



Originally posted by loam



Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"

A passenger on Flight 924 gives his account of the shooting and says Rigoberto Alpizar never claimed to have a bomb

"I don't think they needed to use deadly force with the guy," says John McAlhany, a 44-year-old construction worker from Sebastian, Fla. "He was getting off the plane." McAlhany also maintains that Alpizar never mentioned having a bomb.

"I never heard the word 'bomb' on the plane," McAlhany told TIME in a telephone interview. "I never heard the word bomb until the FBI asked me did you hear the word bomb. That is ridiculous." Even the authorities didn't come out and say bomb, McAlhany says. "They asked, 'Did you hear anything about the b-word?'" he says. "That's what they called it."



Uh huh. That's what Gardner said too - at first.




When the incident began McAlhany was in seat 24C, in the middle of the plane. "[Alpizar] was in the back," McAlhany says, "a few seats from the back bathroom. He sat down." Then, McAlhany says, "I heard an argument with his wife. He was saying 'I have to get off the plane.' She said, 'Calm down.'"

Alpizar took off running down the aisle, with his wife close behind him. "She was running behind him saying, 'He's sick. He's sick. He's ill. He's got a disorder," McAlhany recalls. "I don't know if she said bipolar disorder [as one witness has alleged]. She was trying to explain to the marshals that he was ill. He just wanted to get off the plane."



I wondered about that. Bipolar was just too convenient. And a bit pat considering the Alpizars speak Spanish.





McAlhany described Alpizar as carrying a big backpack and wearing a fanny pack in front. He says it would have been impossible for Alpizar to lie flat on the floor of the plane, as marshals ordered him to do, with the fanny pack on. "You can't get on the ground with a fanny pack," he says. "You have to move it to the side."



So Alpizar explained to the Marshalls he couldn't comply until he moved his fanny pack out of the way - but they shot him when he tried to do it.




By the time Alpizar made it to the front of the airplane, the crew had ordered the rest of the passengers to get down between the seats. "I didn't see him get shot," he says. "They kept telling me to get down. I heard about five shots."



Sounds like those Marshalls didn't want anybody to see what they were doing.






McAlhany said he saw Alpizar before the flight and is absolutely stunned by what unfolded on the airplane. He says he saw Alpizar eating a sandwich in the boarding area before getting on the plane. He looked normal at that time, McAlhany says. He thinks the whole thing was a mistake: "I don't believe he should be dead right now."



Any comments? Done by the book, eh? Yup...


I love the part about how they treated all the other passengers....



Uh huh.

The more I learn - the more it sounds like a hit. And they got the wrong guy.






posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 04:14 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky

Are there any medical people that can answer the question: can a bi-polar person get so unstable after missing just a single dose of his meds? Everything I've ever heard about psyche meds was that they take some time (weeks) of regular dosage before they begin to affect your system.

Can someone confirm or deny that?

[edit on 8-12-2005 by jsobecky]


Yes, a poster at the begining pointed out that even if he misses a few meds, it doesn't make for a breakdown...

personally... I have seen as bad of breakdowns caused from antidepressants as caused by the lack of them... it is more of a situational thing, and something i came to refer as "spinning out".

This is where one bad thing will happen (i.e. an arguement), and maybe another (i.e. spilling a drink)... but then everything that happens following becomes a conspiracy to ruin their day... (whether bad or good)... and is interpreted negatively...

I can totally see this situation as an arguement gone bad, and then an angry exit, that is inconsiderate of anybody around. (because they think THEY are the "poor" victim at that point)...

and when the marshall told him to stop, he probably felt "i dont have to, my wife just offended me, and my therapist says I can remove myself from any situation that i feel offended/threatened in".
the bipolar mind tends to get illogically selfish when stressed and confronted.

we all have had those feelings at some selfish point... but when a gun is pointed at us, it would change most of our viewpoints...
but perhaps not for some bipolar people.

BTW- anyone notice that most of his family didn't know he was bipolar... and we haven't heard this from a doctor yet either...



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 04:19 PM
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Originally posted by LazarusTheLong

Originally posted by jsobecky

Are there any medical people that can answer the question: can a bi-polar person get so unstable after missing just a single dose of his meds?


BTW- anyone notice that most of his family didn't know he was bipolar... and we haven't heard this from a doctor yet either...


It sounds like this "bipolar" business may be a convenient misunderstanding.

From loam's link above:



When the incident began McAlhany was in seat 24C, in the middle of the plane. "[Alpizar] was in the back," McAlhany says, "a few seats from the back bathroom. He sat down." Then, McAlhany says, "I heard an argument with his wife. He was saying 'I have to get off the plane.' She said, 'Calm down.'"

Alpizar took off running down the aisle, with his wife close behind him. "She was running behind him saying, 'He's sick. He's sick. He's ill. He's got a disorder," McAlhany recalls. "I don't know if she said bipolar disorder [as one witness has alleged]. She was trying to explain to the marshals that he was ill. He just wanted to get off the plane."




.



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 04:19 PM
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The fact that family members were unaware of his medical issues is hardly surprising.... I have significant issues I have NEVER discussed with family... In fact, they would be the last to know.



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 04:20 PM
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This was the person in row 24 of the plane, the guy that dg brought up. He was too far away to be a reliable witness, imo. He wasn't even able to tell what the man and wife were arguing about, and he said he was only a few rows in front of them.

There were first-class passengers who heard the b-word. That trumps a guy in row 24, imo.

We're not going to solve it here with second-hand hearsay. But the guy was at fault when all his actions are taken into account.

Can aybody answer the meds question I had earlier?



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
This was the person in row 24 of the plane, the guy that dg brought up. He was too far away to be a reliable witness, imo. He wasn't even able to tell what the man and wife were arguing about, and he said he was only a few rows in front of them.


...but from where you sit, you are able to discredit his eyewitness assertion?




There were first-class passengers who heard the b-word. That trumps a guy in row 24, imo.


Where are they? I have yet to see them quoted.



We're not going to solve it here with second-hand hearsay. But the guy was at fault when all his actions are taken into account.


What second hand hearsay? These are direct quotes from eyewitnesses on the plane. BUT, you nonetheless still conclude it's the guy's fault?




[edit on 8-12-2005 by loam]



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 04:31 PM
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I am not willing to discredit Time Magazine or McAlhany, even though he's just a construction worker and probably intimidated by TV cameras.

The authorized press releases sound like evidence created after the fact to justify an error.

I am most interested in the circumstances that caused the mistake. The Marshalls obviously were hyped. Why? Why shoot a guy whose wife said clearly he was sick and just wanted to get off the plane? Why make him out to be a freak when his family, neighbors, and employers all said he was nice, and non-aggressive?

.



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 04:33 PM
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LazarusTheLong, that was a good summation of what most likely happened.
It makes a lot of sense.

Back on topic..

Now the bipolar business becomes a convenient misunderstanding, eh?
It would be the exception rather than the rule if a family member knew about it, hmm...?

Well, well, it's a good thing that this story is still warm and malleable..



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 04:39 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky

Well, well, it's a good thing that this story is still warm and malleable..




Yup. Also a good thing that people are too busy and distracted to notice all the backtracking, sidestepping and blamelaying that goes on.

Eyewitness reports say the man was sick and wanted to get off the plane. A witness also reports Alpizar explained he couldn't lie down without moving his fannypack out of the way - so he tried to move it to comply with orders to lie down, and got shot for his efforts.





posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 04:42 PM
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Here is a quote currently appearing on the cnn.com home page.

"Air marshals said Rigoberto Alpizar announced he was carrying a bomb before being killed but so far no passenger has publicly concurred with that account."

Interesting that so far passengers aren't backing up the agent's claim.



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 04:50 PM
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Originally posted by loam

Originally posted by jsobecky
This was the person in row 24 of the plane, the guy that dg brought up. He was too far away to be a reliable witness, imo.


...but from where you sit, you are able to discredit his eyewitness assertion?

Funny, loam.
Sometimes standing back and looking at the big picture is the best idea.



There were first-class passengers who heard the b-word. That trumps a guy in row 24, imo.



Where are they? I have yet to see them quoted.



And you may never hear their direct testimony, loam. You really don't have any legal right to.



We're not going to solve it here with second-hand hearsay. But the guy was at fault when all his actions are taken into account.



What second hand hearsay? These are direct quotes from eyewitnesses on the plane. BUT, you nonetheless still conclude it's the guy's fault?



Yeah, direct quotes. More like chatter. Nothing under oath, or reviewed. Like the guy in 24C - why did he get the cell phone whacked out of his hand?

Well, when I saw him on TV, he said the marshall told him to put his hands on top of the seat. Then he admitted that his hands were not fully on top of the seat - that was when he got the gun in his ear and karate-chopped.
(He was probably concealing his cell phone - another distraction!).

But did your entry above even mention that ? So much for eyewitness testimony!

Some of the most unreliable testimony is eyewitness; ask any good defense lawyer.

[edit on 8-12-2005 by jsobecky]



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 05:01 PM
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Originally posted by soficrow

Eyewitness reports say the man was sick and wanted to get off the plane. A witness also reports Alpizar explained he couldn't lie down without moving his fannypack out of the way - so he tried to move it to comply with orders to lie down, and got shot for his efforts.



Ok, sofi - I must have totally missed that explanation given by Alpizar. Can you point it out to me please?

Because that is an entirely different cat of another color than being something that McAlhany said as an opinion, wouldn't you agree?



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 05:01 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
Funny, loam.
Sometimes standing back and looking at the big picture is the best idea.


There's a scientific method I'm willing to justify someones death on...




And you may never hear their direct testimony, loam. You really don't have any legal right to.


Doesn't even merit a response...




Yeah, direct quotes. More like chatter. Nothing under oath, or reviewed. Like the guy in 24C - why did he get the cell phone whacked out of his hand?


Are you serious??? Yes, I see it now...everyone who was on that plane and disputes the version the feds have proffered to the public is anti-government? All democrats? Terrorist lovers? Irresponsible morons??


Your view of this issue and others who agree with you is the PRECISE reason I believe this stinks.... I am not so willing to allow the death of an innocent man to go unexplained and without justification. I can live with mistakes. I CAN NOT live with the government lying about them.



Well, when I saw him on TV, he said the marshall told him to put his hands on top of the seat. Then he admitted that his hands were not fully on top of the seat - that was when he got the gun in his ear and karate-chopped.
(He was probably concealing his cell phone - another distraction!).

But did your entry above even mention that ? So much for eyewitness testimony!

Some of the most unreliable testimony is eyewitness; ask any good defense lawyer.


I completely fail to get your point...



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 05:27 PM
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Originally posted by loam



And you may never hear their direct testimony, loam. You really don't have any legal right to.


Doesn't even merit a response...




Don't get me wrong, loam - it wasn't meant personally. It is just a fact.


Yeah, direct quotes. More like chatter. Nothing under oath, or reviewed. Like the guy in 24C - why did he get the cell phone whacked out of his hand?



Are you serious??? Yes, I see it now...everyone who was on that plane and disputes the version the feds have proffered to the public is anti-government? All democrats? Terrorist lovers? Irresponsible morons??


Your view of this issue and others who agree with you is the PRECISE reason I believe this stinks.... I am not so willing to allow the death of an innocent man to go unexplained and without justification. I can live with mistakes. I CAN NOT live with the government lying about them.

Well, now you are beginning to get personal and become irrational, loam.

The feds word is only one piece of the puzzle that I'm looking at. I look at all the pieces and try to make sense of the situation. I realize that this is a conspiracy forum, but not everything is a conspiracy.

You tend to come up with a conspiracy, then twist the facts to fit it. As in, the guy ran and the feds chased him becomes, to you. the feds set him up to run so they could chase and execute this guy. You're putting the horse before the cart.


Well, when I saw him on TV, he said the marshall told him to put his hands on top of the seat. Then he admitted that his hands were not fully on top of the seat - that was when he got the gun in his ear and karate-chopped.
(He was probably concealing his cell phone - another distraction!).

But did your entry above even mention that ? So much for eyewitness testimony!

Some of the most unreliable testimony is eyewitness; ask any good defense lawyer.



I completely fail to get your point...

The point is, what this "eyewitness" said and did on TV was significantly different than what your link from TIME reported that he said.

You don't want the truth - you want this to be a federal hit and a coverup. I refuse to enable you any longer.

Btw, sofi must be off researching where she read that Alpizar took the time to explain to someone, with Federal Marshalls breathing down his neck, how those fannypacks can be such a nuisance when you are told to lie down face-first.

Sorry, sofi - that was just the funiest thing! I'm sure you'll be able to provide the quote here any moment now.


[edit on 8-12-2005 by jsobecky]



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 05:28 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
This was the person in row 24 of the plane, the guy that dg brought up. He was too far away to be a reliable witness, imo. He wasn't even able to tell what the man and wife were arguing about, and he said he was only a few rows in front of them.

There were first-class passengers who heard the b-word. That trumps a guy in row 24, imo.


This is the seating layout for that flight, with positions of the victim and witnesses marked.



American Airlines outfits their 757 with a 31.0" seat pitch, meaning that each row occupies 31" of the cabin space, including legroom. (seatguru.com) The victim was seated a few seats up from the rear restrooms according to the witness, so that would be around rows 33-34. That puts John McAlhany around 20 - 23 feet away. Mary Gardner in row 11 was around 20 feet from the front exit.

I don't think anybody on the plane was far enough away not to hear a man shouting "BOMB".

I live in a very modest house and my living room is 24 feet long.



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 05:28 PM
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This is funny. Why is it that some of you are NEVER willing or able to see things like Sofi, myself or Loam and a few others??

I'm beginning to think we are very special people...


Jsobecky, that John guy who spoke, said he stood up, strained to listen, was looking directly at first class, so did other people and No one heard him claim he had a bomb.

I give this guy a lot of credit for actually appearing on tv and basically shocking the press by saying that the whole thing stunk.

NOW there's a great American.



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 05:38 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
Well, now you are beginning to get personal and become irrational, loam.


Nothing personal intended. Regarding irrational...that is what I would call blind faith in the government's version of events when several witnesses claim otherwise.



I realize that this is a conspiracy forum, but not everything is a conspiracy.

You tend to come up with a conspiracy, then twist the facts to fit it. As in, the guy ran and the feds chased him becomes, to you. the feds set him up to run so they could chase and execute this guy. You're putting the horse before the cart.


I said and am doing nothing of the sort. However, in my view it is outrageous to assert that several witness who claim the man did not yell "bomb" somehow are mistaken and that the government's version of the story is correct.

If several witnesses had said that the man DID do so, do you honestly think we would even be having this discussion?



You don't want the truth


WRONG.



- you want this to be a federal hit and a coverup.


WRONG.



I refuse to enable you any longer.





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