At least one known homeworld of the aliens...

Ok, I started a new thread so that anyone who wants to talk about the Roshaniyya can do so:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

OK, where were we? Nuking the alien invaders or something, right?
Lemme see, where'd I put those coordinates....

Dammit look at all the poblems those aliens have caused.

People get laughed at who see them
They are the topic of crappy scifi shows and we have to endure plastic models on strings as special effects.
They have appalling flying skills always crashing into our planet. (If they were always crashing into your car how long would you tolerate it?) Forget "road rage" how about "planet rage!!"
They stole elvis
They look plug ugly
They have no redeaming characteristics at all

Now we know where they live nuke them all and eat the survivors!



[edit on 2-11-2005 by Netchicken]

Where is Zeta Reticuli located exacty? I just need the approximate distance.

Bow to your new god! bow to the wiki!

Wikipedia pwnz j00 411!!111

it should say how far it is away and some other misceleneous information, enjoy.

Originally posted by nukunuku
Dogons knew about it way before modern science, they told the researchers about it back when modern science didnt have a clue.

The dogon's didn't know anything. They had a rock with a drawing of a cirlce and a dot in the center. The guy who did the study on them knew about sirius A and B, and he 'infected' the myth with his own ideas about it. Notice, for example, that the Dogon information didn't lead anyone to the discovery of Sirius C, for example. Thats because the information is not there.

riiight mr.moderator, only i read the info about them from many different authors.

Do you have proof of your claim or is this one of those "i cant handle it thus ill trash it" denial responses of yours.

What if its US that dont know "anything"

Let's assume, just as an astronomical exercise, that the map does show the sun and the star that is "the sun" to the humanoids. We'll take the Hill encounter at face value, and see where it leads.

Since the aliens were described as "humanoid" and seemed reasonably comfortable on this planet, their home planet should be basically like ours. Their atmosphere must be similar because the Hills breathed without trouble while inside the ship, and the aliens did not appear to wear any protective apparatus. And since we assume their biology is similar to ours, their planet should have the same temperature regime as Earth (Betty and Barney did say it was uncomfortably cold in the ship). In essence, then, we assume their home planet must be very Earthlike. Based on what we discussed earlier it follows that their sun would be on our list if it were within 55 light-years of us.

The lines on the map, according to Betty Hill, were described by the alien as "trade routes" or "places visited occasionally" with the dotted lines as "expeditions". Any interpretation of the Betty Hill map must retain the logic of these routes (i.e. the lines would link stars that would be worth visiting).

Keeping all this in mind, Marjorie Fish constructed several three-dimensional models of the solar neighborhood in hopes of detecting the pattern in the Hill map. Using beads dangling on threads, she painstakingly recreated our stellar environment. Between Aug. 1968 and Feb. 1973, she strung beads, checked data, searched and checked again. A suspicious alignment, detected in late 1968, turned out to be almost a perfect match once new data from the detailed 1969 edition of the Catalog of Nearby Stars became available. (This catalog is often called the "Gliese catalog" -- pronounced "glee-see" -- after its principal author, Wilhelm Gliese.)

www.ramtops.demon.co.uk...

[Griaule's] methodology with its declared intent to redeem African thought, its formal interviews with a single informant through an interpreter, and the absence of texts in the Dogon language have been criticized for years

Recently, a Belgian anthropologist, Walter van Beek, who has spent 11 years among the Dogon, pointed out that Griaule's data is unique: "Is Sirius a double star? The ethnographic facts are quite straightforward. The Dogon of course, know Sirius as a star [it is after all the brightest star in the sky]... Knowledge of the stars is not important either in daily life or in ritual. The position of the sun and the phases of the moon are more pertinent for Dogon reckoning. No Dogon outside of the circle of Griaule's informants had ever heard of sigu tolo or po tolo... Most important, no one, even within the circle of Griaule informants, had ever heard or understood that Sirius was a double star [or according to Renard Pále,(6) even a triple one, with B and C orbiting A]. Consequently, the purported knowledge of the mass of Sirius B or the orbiting time was absent (van Beek 1991).

Also, importantly

Van Beek points out that Griaule's data was developed in long intense sessions with one primary informant, Ambara. In this process, Griaule probably reinterpreted statements from his informant in the light of his own knowledge about Sirius and its heavy companion, which had been much in the news at the time he began his field work. In turn, the Dogon, because Griaule was extremely respected and liked and because the Dogon culture places enormous importance on consensus and in avoiding contradictions, would have accepted his analysis as if it were theirs (van Beek 1991: 152-155). As an example of the process, van Beek points out a Dogon tale which explains the differences between white people and the Dogon, but which, in fact, is taken from the Bible. "Thus the story of the drunken Noah [Genesis 9: 21-27] has found its way into the stories of the se Dogon, who emphatically denied that this was a 'white' story." Traditionalists and Christians unanimously declared it to be Dogon: it belonged to the tem. In many other instances the process was discernible: foreign elements were adopted and in a single generation became "traditional."

Another field researcher with 10 years of experience with the dogons

[Jacky Boujou] is in complete agreement with van Beek, "I am struck by the degree to which van Beek's analyses coincide with those I have gradually arrived at... The third period is represented by the Renard Pále,(7) which remains altogether strange and entirely unverifiable in the field, whatever Dogon region investigated." And also, "I would underline the obvious desire of the Dogon for collective harmony and consensus that is striking to the participant observer (Boujou 1991)."

And yet another:

Another anthropologist with fieldwork among the Dogon, Paul Lane, agrees, "Many of van Beek's substantive claims come to me as no surprise. Thus, for instance, although the objectives of my research in the Sanga region in the early 1980s were quite different, along with van Beek I found little evidence for the complex but nonetheless allegedly unified symbolic ordering of daily life described by Griaule

Also, why is the idea that aliens told the dogon about sirius more plausible than that a european researcher told them about it, since Sirius as a double system was known to them? And, again, why is it that the discovery of Sirius C had nothing to do with the Dogon, and infact that information doesn't even appear in the story until after its discovered??

or is this one of those "i cant handle it thus ill trash it" denial responses of yours.

What the deuce are you talking about man!?

tnx for the link Nyg

i find it interesting they supposedly claim jupiter has 4 moons, which is also debunked for not being true in this article you provided. But how exactly did they know about jupiter at all, let alone that it has moons. No telescopes and all.

Antropologists are a weird bunch IMO.

"Adams does not provide any explanation for Dogon knowledge although one is current among the Afrocentric circles in which he runs.(8) Frances Welsing (1987, 1991), as well as Adams (1987, 1988), argue that melanin has the ability to pick up all kinds of energy frequencies. Welsing (1987) further claims that the Dogon by virtue of their melanin are able to pick up vibrations from Sirius B just as if they possessed infra-red telescopes.(9) Welsing also claims that melanin gives ancient Egyptians and other Blacks extra-sensory perception, psi and the ability to foretell the future. This explanation of an extraordinary claim is also not supported by any evidence (Ortiz de Montellano 1993)."

So if it wasnt "the fish people" that told them about Sirius stars, somebody else had to.

There is mention of "fish people" in Popol Vuh as well i belive.

Cripes, before I forget, here is a site I found with the Dogon Revisited Paper, the other ones I couldn't find (and the originals are in frenchy anyway)

www.savefile.com... (this site will delete a file after 14 days of inactivity)

But how exactly did they know about jupiter at all

Jupiter is visibile tho, and I doubt that they said 'it has moons', rather there were several levels of interpretation involved. Take, for example, the Saturn myth. The god saturn is, as a punishmnet, chained and bound. The Planet Saturn has a ring. Did the greeks know about the ring and thats why saturn is bound? Probably not, being bound was a humiliating punishment, about the only thing you can do to an immortal and indestructible god, so lots of gods are actually bound or threatened to be bound.

So if it wasnt "the fish people" that told them about Sirius stars, somebody else had to.

Thats the thing, no one told them about it. Even the idea that another european explorer told them about it isn't necessary. Griaule interpreted it into their myths, and they 'agreed', because their society values agreement, apparently. It was never there at all. Griaule probably didn't even do it with malintent, he probably didn't even realize that he was doing it.

There is mention of "fish people" in Popol Vuh as well i belive.

A fish man often teaches civilizations to become civilized. The Sumerians were taught by the fishman god Oannes


(an assyrian representation, probably of a preist as the fish god tho)


But is this because of a race of fishmen from the stars that visited earth and taugh some groups of people to make cities? Or is it because the water, the abyss, represents human conciousness and a fishman comming out of the water represents the awakening of that conciousness? Or something else?

[edit on 3-11-2005 by Nygdan]

As I recall, Betty Hill is the sole source on the Zeta Reticuli story, and she never actually identified the star. It was a "close match" by someone named Marjorie Fish, who used the drawing to search a sky map. and the stars don't ACTUALLY fit her drawing. They're "sorta close."

Betty Hill actually once identified an area that included a constellation far from Zeta Reticuli -- the constellation of Pegasus. Atterberg, another researcher, found an area that was an even better match.

But the Zeta Reticuli name got published in "The Zeta Reticuli Incident" and the book caught popular imagination. It was taken to be true, although there wer other matches and better matches:
www.gravitywarpdrive.com...

The match I saw was pretty much dead on, and the added fact of considering the COLOR of the stars. Most who claim they find other matches completely ignore the colors as indicated by Betty. The fact of a matching constellation of YELLOW suns, is the most compelling... Not to mention, that this was a drawing from recall...so there's bound to be some inaccuracy... There are other sources than Betty, though some are dubious...like Mr. Lazar, etc. Still, this forum is about such wacky connections...(and this thread is solely about Zeti-Reticuli...) Discussion about Sirius and others pretty much warrant their own threads....otherwise this just gets muddy....

Originally posted by Nygdan
But is this because of a race of fishmen from the stars that visited earth and taugh some groups of people to make cities? Or is it because the water, the abyss, represents human conciousness and a fishman comming out of the water represents the awakening of that conciousness? Or something else?

I'm sorry Nygdan, but your pseudo-scientific idea is just as unbelievable as alien contact with the Dogons/Sumerians/whatever.

[edit on 7/11/05 by Yazman]

Originally posted by Yazman
I'm sorry Nygdan, but your pseudo-scientific idea is just as unbelievable as alien contact with the Dogons/Sumerians/whatever.

[edit on 7/11/05 by Yazman]

This is ATS Skunk Works, created so people can discuss so-called pseudo-scientific ideas without criticism from "skeptics". At least that's the idea I got.

Nygdan, I think you're not alone in this view. The possiblity of an amphibious race coming to earth and being worshiped as gods has been discussed in several books, the most prominent being "The Sirius Connection" by Robert Temple. Hell, I think there was a Stargate SG-1 Episode with the Oannes in it. This subject warrants it's own thread though.

Gazrok,
I think you may want to remake this thread, it was one of the more interesting ones I've seen for a long time, before it was thrown off track....

That being said, who besides Lazar and Hill/Fish point to Zeta R. as the origin of the Greys? Oh...I forgot Zeta Talk.
www.zetatalk.com...




[edit on 11/7/2005 by Flinx]

r is it because the water, the abyss, represents human conciousness and a fishman comming out of the water represents the awakening of that conciousness? Or something else?

I was referring to this, Flinx.

I was not criticising anybody, I had noticed that his idea of such extreme allegory is, to me, not a viable explanation.

I suppose there will be loads of links to the idea that the egyptians and aliens had some kind of connection. The old theory that the shafts point to home planets of dead aliens. Anyway :

'According to one early theory, the Great Pyramid could have been built around 3400 BC or 2170 BC because at these epochs the descending passage would have been aligned with the then polestar, Thuban (Alpha Draconis), at its lower culmination. An alternative, more elaborate theory has been developed by Robert Bauval. He shows that the relative positions of the three main Giza pyramids match those of the three stars of Orion's Belt, and that the match would have been most precise around 10,500 BC'

Source: ourworld.compuserve.com...

Alpha Draconis - not them again.

Maybe something in it maybe not just throwing it in.

Originally posted by Gazrok

As I recall, Betty Hill is the sole source on the Zeta Reticuli story, and she never actually identified the star. It was a "close match" by someone named Marjorie Fish, who used the drawing to search a sky map. and the stars don't ACTUALLY fit her drawing. They're "sorta close."

Betty Hill actually once identified an area that included a constellation far from Zeta Reticuli -- the constellation of Pegasus. Atterberg, another researcher, found an area that was an even better match.

But the Zeta Reticuli name got published in "The Zeta Reticuli Incident" and the book caught popular imagination. It was taken to be true, although there wer other matches and better matches:
www.gravitywarpdrive.com...

The match I saw was pretty much dead on, and the added fact of considering the COLOR of the stars. Most who claim they find other matches completely ignore the colors as indicated by Betty. The fact of a matching constellation of YELLOW suns, is the most compelling... Not to mention, that this was a drawing from recall...so there's bound to be some inaccuracy...

I was watching a show about this and the lady that found the Zeta Reticuli match of Betty Hill's star map said that it wasnt until years after betty drew the map when a new star was discovered that she was able to match it. Before the star was discovered she couldnt find a match.

The Zeta Reticuli systems is pretty interesting Binary suns billion of years older then our sun SOL and only 39 light years away from earth thats pretty close. Thanks to time dilation without even going faster then light say 99.9% LS the trip could be made in what would be a a few day perhaps for the crew, but for everyone eles alittle over 39 years would have passed.

No sense in dabating Nygdan.
I wonder how for the last who knows how many centuries have the Dogon had the 50-60 year celebration for the orbit of Sirius and know exactly when it is?
Usually a Dogon can only attend one of these in their lifetime..so they make it special, unless one live to be 130 yo.
Guess the EU taught them that?

From a skeptic site for you Ny.
Enjoy, seems thses folks say EU had to be time travelers..



skepdic.com...

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by nukunuku
Dogons knew about it way before modern science, they told the researchers about it back when modern science didnt have a clue.

The dogon's didn't know anything. They had a rock with a drawing of a cirlce and a dot in the center. The guy who did the study on them knew about sirius A and B, and he 'infected' the myth with his own ideas about it. Notice, for example, that the Dogon information didn't lead anyone to the discovery of Sirius C, for example. Thats because the information is not there.

The Dogon have a year long celebration every fifty years for the orbital patterns of Sirius. They also have the earliest history use of cannabis, and all species and strains of the plant can be traced back to Mali. Here is a link... the Dogon and Cannabis

If you don't believe me, take the Greek traveler and chronicler Herodotus' word for it. He was there in 300BCE.

Also, what about Sirius C? Astronomers have claimed to have found it before.