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Originally posted by saint4God
But the second is the one people have issue with:
God is just - "Yet He does not leave the guilty unpunished". We can accept that He is love in one place, but the fact that He's the God of justice as well isn't right for some reason?
Two hang-ups that will make this difficult to understand. One, if a person doesn't believe we as people make mistakes. Two, is that if a person doesn't accept Christ as the solution to this dilemna. That's it folks, plain and simple as I think it could be. If everyone's on-board, then we can move on to Jesus. Otherwise I think we need to either back-up or discuss in more detail even before approaching Christ's role in the plan.
(1) What advantage, then, does the Jew have, or what value is there in circumcision? (2) There are all kinds of advantages! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the utterances of God. (3) What if some of them were unfaithful? Their unfaithfulness cannot cancel God's faithfulness, can it?
(1) What advantage, then, does the Jew have, or what value is there in circumcision? (2) There are all kinds of advantages! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the utterances of God. (3) What if some of them were unfaithful? Their unfaithfulness cannot cancel God's faithfulness, can it?
(4) Of course not! God is true, even if everyone else is a liar. As it is written, "You are right when you speak, and win your case when you go into court." (5) But if our unrighteousness serves to confirm God's righteousness, what can we say? God is not unrighteous when he vents his wrath on us, is he? (I am talking in human terms.)
(6) Of course not! Otherwise, how could God judge the world? (7) For if through my falsehood God's truthfulness increases to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? (8) Or can we say-as some people slander us by claiming that we say-"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved!
(9) What, then, does this mean? Are we Jews any better off? Not at all! For we have already accused everyone, both Jews and Greeks, of being under the power of sin.
(10) As it is written, "Not even one person is righteous. (11) No one understands. No one searches for God. (12) All have turned away. Together they have become worthless. No one shows kindness, not even one person! (13) Their throats are open graves. With their tongues they practice deception. The venom of poisonous snakes is under their lips. (14) Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. (15) Their feet are swift to shed blood. (16) Ruin and misery mark their ways. (17) They have not learned the path to peace. (18) There is no fear of God before their eyes."
(19) Now we know that whatever the law says applies to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
(20) Therefore, no human being will be justified in God's sight by means of the works prescribed by the law, for through the law comes the full knowledge of sin.
(21) But now, apart from the law, God's righteousness is revealed and is attested by the Law and the Prophets- (22) God's righteousness through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction, (23) since all have sinned and continue to fall short of God's glory.
(24) By his grace they are justified freely through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (25) whom God offered as a place where atonement by Christ's blood could occur through faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because he had waited patiently to deal with sins committed in the past.
(26) He wanted to demonstrate at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the person who has the faithfulness of Jesus.
(27) What, then, is there to boast about? That has been eliminated. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on the principle of faith.
(28) For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works prescribed by the law.
(29) Is God the God of the Jews only? Is he not the God of the gentiles, too? Yes, of the gentiles, too, (30) since there is only one God who will justify the circumcised on the basis of faith and the uncircumcised by that same faith.
(31) Do we, then, abolish the law by this faith? Of course not! Instead, we uphold the law.
Originally posted by queenannie38
But the grave and death will still be sent to non-existence--without a single one of us in there.
Originally posted by saint4God
according to Christianity?
Hmmm... *taptaptap* This one is a real thinker, yes? We know the Bible tells us about how to secure eternal life in this lifetime (U2U me if you'd like details on this), but what about those who reject, never fully hear/understand, or don't hear the good news at all?
Originally posted by dbrandt
For those who hear Gospel and decide to reject it, when they die there are no other chances.
Originally posted by spamandham
Originally posted by dbrandt
For those who hear Gospel and decide to reject it, when they die there are no other chances.
You are a sociopath, just like your god.
You've made yourself as horrifying as he is rather than question your security blanket. You don't bat an eye at the judgment you uncritically repeat.
You'd rather sacrifice your very humanity than give up the self induced insanity you worship by the name of faith.
Does this sound harsh? It's infinitely less harsh than the nonsensical venom I just quoted you saying. You call it love, I call it the greatest hate imaginable. Jackels are more human than the despicable character you praise.
If you could only open your eyes for a moment, you would see the lies that control you and fool you into thinking slavery is freedom, hate is love, and death is life.
Originally posted by apex
Just out of interest, does your views extend to all religions, or do you just happen to not like christians.
Originally posted by apex
If someone is in hell eventually they must see the light, realize they must cxome to God, beg for forgiveness, and be forgiven. It makes sense.
I'm sorry to be giving you trouble understanding me--I was trying to just stick to the facts (according to what I've discovered in studying) rather than put forth my 'opinion' as something definite. I used to have an opinion, no doubt--and it wasn't the same as what I've discovered since then...I had to adjust a great deal, in regard to what I'd always assumed compared to what I learned by delving into languages and the cultures of the eras during which these things were written down. To say my 'beliefs were challenged' is an understatement--a gross understatement.
Originally posted by saint4God
that you're well studied queenannie. It could be that you are so much that I, as layfolk, am having difficulty understanding what you're saying.
What I'd like to stress is that, anymore, I don't 'believe' hell is anything--all I can assert is what I've understood the scriptures to actually say, from translation rather than interpretation. I'm not wanting to interpret anything, either for myself or anyone else--I only want to be as precise as I can in presenting what I currently understand as far as from a linguistic perspective. The rest, we must all decide for ourselves, or even, not decide...I personally have complete confidence in my LORD to do us all right, in the end--He loves us all and is righteous (these points I have never found any reason to doubt)--and since it is in His hands, at least on my part, I cannot worry too much.
Would you be able to simplify for me what you believe hell is, with brevity and conciseness?
And do you believe all are saved?[edit on 4-11-2005 by saint4God]
If God is truly a 'faithful Creator' and full of mercy and righteousness--perfect in His love for His creations--basically, if God is worthy of the title 'Most High'--wouldn't any 'good news' that came on His authority be impossible to reject when heard?
Originally posted by dbrandt
For those who hear Gospel and decide to reject it, when they die there are no other chances.
Actually, those who were 'without excuse' were the angelic host who fell from God's presence. They knew. Man has only guessed, for the most part.
For the debate on those who never hear the gospel, the Bible tells us they are without excuse because creation itself is revelation enough that there is a God. God is fair and just and none of these will enter hell unjustly.
The only 'saved' group is the group who have already departed our earthly existence. Presently, death has not quite gotten a grip on any of us--it is a sure inevitability, but until it happens, we cannot technically be rescued from it.
There are some people who claim to be a christian but really aren't, because they didn't mean it when they accepted Christ(so in actuality they are part of the unsaved group).
We are all born lost.
I don't know whether they thought they could fool God or what, but if they die without Christ they are lost.
Do a study on the word 'accept'--you will find that it is God who does the accepting, not us. 'Accept' is not the same as 'receive'--as in 'who receives a prophet in a prophet's name, etc...'
God tells us that when someone, truly accepts Christ, HE will NEVER LEAVE us nor FORSAKE us. If you accepted Christ and meant it you are saved.
Originally posted by queenannie38
If God is truly a 'faithful Creator' and full of mercy and righteousness--perfect in His love for His creations--basically, if God is worthy of the title 'Most High'--wouldn't any 'good news' that came on His authority be impossible to reject when heard?
Originally posted by dbrandt
For those who hear Gospel and decide to reject it, when they die there are no other chances.
Originally posted by queenannie38
And if so--then we all are equally undeserving of rescue from death--which means if Christ came to rescue even one of us, He came to rescue us all.
To be perfectly fair, we all deserve to die. On the other hand, we all deserve to live. I'm no better or more special, in any way, whatsoever, than anyone else. The same goes for every other soul, regardless. That is fair and just.
Originally posted by queenannie38
Actually, those who were 'without excuse' were the angelic host who fell from God's presence. They knew. Man has only guessed, for the most part.
So, what you are saying is that God's will can be defeated by man's stubbornness/ignorance/pride/blindness? God created beings that could thwart His plans?
Originally posted by dbrandt
God could have let us all go unrescued but He didn't He sent Christ for all who will believe/accept/place their faith in Him.He did come to rescue us all but not all are going to come to Him. People can harden their hearts and refuse.
You are assuming a whole lot about me--not knowing what has led me to this point in time, how can you be sure 'I'm making God into' anything? You say you used to do such a thing--perhaps you still are?
You are making God into who you want Him to be. I used to do the same thing.
It is not just by reading words that we find 'truth.' Only the Spirit of Truth can show us what God wants us to understand.
Originally posted by dbrandt
Alot of people quess what God means that is why we have the Bible. God didn't want us to guess so He tells us in the Bible what is truth.
No doubt--over and over and over. And still there is something to learn every time. Romans is actually one of my favorites.
The whole chapter should be read to understand more.
Originally posted by spamandham
Originally posted by apex
Just out of interest, does your views extend to all religions, or do you just happen to not like christians.
It extends to anyone who's beliefs would place others in eternal torment. I'm not certain, but I think this applies only to Christianity and Islam.
Originally posted by apex
If someone is in hell eventually they must see the light, realize they must cxome to God, beg for forgiveness, and be forgiven. It makes sense.
What you are suggesting is a nonbiblical middle ground sort of like the Hindu view of hell, or the Catholic purgatory - a place of purification where sin is burned off, but not eternal. If your ok with essentially making up your own doctrine, you might as well just dispense with hell altogether.
Originally posted by apex
I wasn't suggesting making up my own doctrine, I think no denomination is perfect, just going straight from the bible would seem best to me.
Originally posted by apex
Also thinking that an all loving god wouldn't allow someone to go to hell forever makes sense to me.
Originally posted by saint4God
"If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hand or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell." - Matthew 18:8
And the border came down to the end of the mountain that lieth before the valley of the son of Hinnom, and which is in the valley of the giants on the north, and descended to the valley of Hinnom, to the side of Jebusi on the south, and descended to En-rogel,