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NEWS: Chinese Beauty Products Made From the Skins of Chinese Executed Prisoners

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posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 08:15 AM
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Just a thought, but remembering WWII and all those stories about NAZIs eating babies, and making soap out of dead bodies, whether true or not, there is a lesson here.

I think if war time propaganda was not true, and if that follows a rule of thumb that "the first casualty of war is truth," then yesterday's war time propaganda is tommorrow's reality. In this case "tommorrow," is today. It looks like a vicious bodyguard of lies too often eventuates into our worst nightmare.

To top it off too many people go back to sleep and go shopping, after all it is just another day of double think. Maybe vanity and an arrogant sense of power of buying new organs as if on a firesale, in all this context, creates the prospect of a barf-o-thon, but only if you have not lost your conscience yet. If western governments persistently do nothing, then they are just as criminal, and just as evil. Possibly our governments are even more evil, since the Chinese appear not to know any better as it is their "tradition," and they have been double thinking in granite for far too long. At the same time, we claim to know better but buy these things, looking the other way.

All of this is the reason capital punishment should be outlawed world wide constitutionally and in an enforced matter of priority, since governments cannot be trusted. Perhaps the only viable and sustainable polity is an as yet to be known one, keeping government in check and leaving people who are doing nothing wrong alone.

[edit on 16-9-2005 by SkipShipman]




posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 12:57 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
I am not demonizing and entire country, i am demonizing the Communist party of China, the government of China.

But according to you im anti-American when I criticise the Bush administration, right? Dont get me wrong, I agree with you on China's government being evil and it honestly does disgust me.


Originally posted by Muaddib
Since when has this thread turned into a topic about me?.......

You started this thread and you also jump at any opportunity to hold China up as an excuse or some kind of yard stick when criticism of the United States is brought up. I thought I'd get my point across that you should look inward to your own country before demonzing others. Before you ask, yes I am fully aware and vocal about the evil and dispicable acts commited by the British government.


Originally posted by Muaddib
Have there been some human right abuses done by the US? yes, of course there have been, but when there has been these abuses, a full investigation is done, and something is done about it, unlike what happens in China, which is the subject of this thread.

I can show you many a thread that you have brought up China in to highlight your stance. Why is it unacceptable for me to reply in kind? I think its a bit naieve of you to assume that every human rights abuse is prosecuted in the United States. You only know what your government allows you to know. Remember the highly critical report published by Amnesty International? Why is it that that report was dismissed by the Bush administration? Why is it that you accept their abrupt rebuff of a report that comes from a highly respected human rights group?


Originally posted by Muaddib
The human abuses of the US you are so willing to point out, do not include killing innocent people so they can profit from selling the organs and skin of those innocent people..... and remember this is about China and the willingness of that government to use their people as cattle for products....which include organs and skin.....

No it doesnt include selling organs and skin, but is that the limit of your moral radar? Do you find the killing of thousands of innocent civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq by U.S forces acceptable? Or can you not compare one evil act of a government to another evil act of another government?


Originally posted by Muaddib
Similar American practices?..... You are calling similar American practices to the detention of Iraqi people, many if not most who were caught fighting against the coalition. Those that were found innocent were released. Have some military personnel been involved in the death of some prisoners? yes, and they have been prosecuted something that does not happen in China.....

Ive seen American soldiers scape-goated for carrying out orders that came from the Defence Secretary himself.


Originally posted by Muaddib
Then I guess you better detach yourself from reality and try to find a place where no government does any wrongs at all....

So we're to accept wrong-doing because its the way of the World? Well gee thats a great philosophy, why do you care what the CCP gets up to? After all thats reality for you.


Originally posted by Muaddib
I don't think you will find any government in this planet capable of doing that.....because people make mistakes, still something like what keeps happening in CHina, are beyond "human mistakes," and beyond the actions of some corrupted and perverted people. It is a whole government whose sole purpose is to tag a crime they deem acceptable to innocent people, so they can harvest their organs and their skin for profit.

Hmmm again, why do you think you need to keep telling me this? I've never agreed with, or condoned the actions of the Chinese government here.


Originally posted by Muaddib
We don't deal in rumors here last time I checked...well i guess it has changed a bit. Anyways, if you want to prove something, present proof that these people are facing the death penalty, and present proof that they are innocent, instead of just making claims.

Rumors? Well I guess I shouldnt of assumed this was public knowledge.


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Bush administration has promised not to seek the death penalty against two British nationals being detained at the U.S. base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, the British attorney general and a senior Bush administration official have said.

A senior administration official confirmed the decision, and suggested the promise not to seek the death penalty was made "on a case-by case basis," and did not constitute a blanket immunity from the death penalty for British detainees in general.

www.cnn.com...


Even so, European alarm persists: Britain's foreign secretary Jack Straw said Thursday that his government would press for the British subjects held at Guantanamo to be returned to the U.K. to stand trial there, rather than before a U.S. military tribunal. An American diplomat had further inflamed European tempers by telling the British media that British subjects held at Guantanamo would face the death penalty if tried by U.S. military courts — capital punishment is forbidden in the European Union, and most EU countries won't extradite prisoners who may face the death penalty elsewhere.

www.time.com...

Do you want any more proof that those detained at Guantanamo Bay could be executed if found guilty?


Originally posted by Muaddib
So first your claim they face the death penalty, and then you say so far they are not being charged?........

No, if you can read I said that there are people in Guantanamo Bay that have been there for over 3 years and have still not been charged with a crime.


Originally posted by Muaddib
BTW, this is about CHINA stay on topic please.....

I'll remember that one Muaddib, you know when you bring up Iraq or China in any thread that criticizes the United States.


Originally posted by Muaddib
First of, yes, you are condoning what the chinese government is doing, because you see innocent civilians in the same light as murderers/rapers/etc, etc.....

Ha! Sure and im a baby-killing seal-clubber as well. Just where did I say I condone the execution of ANY ONE?


Originally posted by Muaddib
Second of all, I doubt that people who are innocent are going to agree to donate their organs.....since they want to live and they have not done anything wrong....

Innocent according to you. If the government says that such and such is a crime with the death penalty and a citizen breaks that law then really I cant see what YOUR beef is. My beef would be that no one should be executed INCLUDING those 60 odd executed in the United States annually. Understand?


Originally posted by Muaddib
Then if we follow that line of reasoning and let's say, a police officer is watching as a man is about to kill another innocent man\woman\child in cold blood, according to you it is "callous" to kill that criminal.......

No because that would PREVENT a murder. Killing some one after the fact wont stop the murder from occuring will it? It wont bring the deceased person back will it? And before you write some thing else on your hypothetical, jail them for life.


Originally posted by Muaddib
Subz, you still don't seem to understand that in societies there are rules. If you commit a crime, like raping and murdering a child, or murdering anyone without it being self defense, you have to pay for that crime.

There are also rules in Communist China. If you break them you will be executed. Your beef is that you dont think those crimes warrant a death penalty whereas I dont think any crime warrants the death penalty. Understand? I think you're callous for supported executions of murderers.


Originally posted by Muaddib
You seem to be unwilling to accept that people are accountable for their actions, for whatever reason/s it is that you are unable to accept this fact, it is still a fact. You shoplift an electronic product, and you will go to jail for that, unless it is your first crime.

I buy into the whole "preventing the execution of 1 innocent man is worth allowing any number of truly guilty murderers to remain in jail for the rest of their life" argument. I just cant accept that there are innocent people that are accidently/willfully executed in the United States (or any where) that are completely innocent. Remember the thread where we were shown how its actually cheaper to jail an American murderer for life than it is to execute them? So there is no financial incentive to execute some one. So why do it? If you find evidence post-execution that some one didnt "do it" then you cant exactly bring them back, apologize and send them on their way.


Originally posted by Muaddib
But killing people because they are pro-democratic or because the government deems it a necessity to keep the peace when the people being executed have no done any crimes....that is wrong.

Preaching to the choir there. Killing any one is wrong in my books.

Its your pick-n-mix moral stances that I take issue with.

[edit on 16/9/05 by subz]



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 09:47 PM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

you call that proof? u think im going to take his figures without any sources

Its the The Epoch Times

that is not from a netural site. that site is anti-communist anti-chinese.

do you know how much trash this site makes


I gave many other neutral sites with evidence... with proof.... You just don't want to accept the truth about communism....



Originally posted by chinawhite
I do know who Wang Guoqi is..............


And you think you knowing him discredits him or the other statements made by doctors and Chinese-Americans who have gotten medical help in the states because of complications from those organs they are recieving from executed people in China?........

Nice try, but it is not working.


Originally posted by chinawhite
And i respect FredT because? his a anti-chinese anti-communist


Wether or not he agrees with the communist dogma doesn't mean his expertise in the medical field is less reliable.



Originally posted by chinawhite

what is your edvidence that the majority gets their organs removed?


You claimed you read the links but with this question you are showing me you did not read the links....

Let me show you once again.


a Chinese government document explains the procedures used in the extraction of executed prisoners organs generates between 2,000 and 3,000 human organs sold per year out of an estimated 4,500 executed prisoners.8 Amnesty International reports that, “China put more than 1,200 individuals to death in 1999.”


Excerpted from.
www.american.edu...



Originally posted by chinawhite
the falun gong use to burn themselves on the street.


And there has been some Buddhist student monks who have also burned themselves to death...it doesn't mean Buddhism or in this case Falun Gong condone or incite people to burn themselves...or to kill themselves.

There is a very high rate of suicide in China, and that includes people who are not followers of Falun Gong, or Buddhists.....


Suicide blights China's young adults

Survey reveals main cause of death of people under 35

Jonathan Watts in Xining
Tuesday July 26, 2005
The Guardian

Suicide is the main cause of death among young adults in China, the state media said yesterday in a report that highlights the growing pressures to succeed in love, work and education in one of the world's fastest changing societies.
Increasing stress, loneliness and a lack of medical support for depression are thought to have contributed to an annual suicide toll that is estimated at 250,000 people a year.

According to the China Daily, an additional 2.5 million to 3.5 million make unsuccessful attempts to kill themselves each year.


Excerpted from.
www.guardian.co.uk...


China’s suicide rate has increased to 2.3 times the global average in recent years. Figures report 287,000 deaths per year in China are the result of suicide. An additional two million attempts are unsuccessfully made across the nation in the same amount of time. USA Today reports, “Suicide is the leading cause of death among the Chinese people ages 15 to 34.”

These figures rank China’s suicide rate as ten times that of the United States, and twice as likely based on population alone. Inhabitants of rural areas are three times more likely to commit suicide than urban dwellers.


Excerpted from.
www.msum.org...

The rate of suicide in China has nothing to do with religion....




Originally posted by chinawhite
It is. lifted 300million people out of poverty and managed a average of 10% growth for 25years


Right....while killing mostly innocent people to harvest their organs and skin.....


Originally posted by chinawhite
My government? im australian-chinese. are they trying to overthrow the australian governmnet


You seemed to be regarding this issue too lightly, despite what the facts show, so I believed you must be living in China, or you are a communist.


Originally posted by chinawhite
Any examples (excluding tianmmen square)


First off....why excluding Tiannanmen Square?...... so, it is alright according to you for the Chinese government to shoot and kill disarmed people who were not violent?....

Second of all, we can see by the facts that every year they kill many innocent people just so they can harvest their organs and skin....



Originally posted by chinawhite
Because its for the people. Chinese people like to see results. if someone steals 10million RMB and only gets 20years there will be riots.


Riiight....I wonder why there are no riots for the executions of up to 15,000 Chinese 69% of them not having comitted serious crimes and many of those just for being pro-democratic, religious, or just because their organs match the blood type of someone rich.....


Originally posted by chinawhite
Known? how do you know. through western reports


Through the reports of human right organizations...through the reports of former Chinese military doctors, and other doctors who have done these procedures or saw what was being done, etc....

I trust those reports more than what the CCP propaganda would try to sell to the world.





Originally posted by chinawhite
I read the links


Riiight.....


Originally posted by chinawhite
Keep on quoting from AI articles


I don't see you providing any evidence at all to refute these facts..... I just see you reciting the CCP (Communis) propaganda...



Originally posted by chinawhite
Exactly your comparing china to a western country.......................

THese are not comparable


How in the freaking world is it normal and alright to murder people for their organs and skin, many of them for making misdemeanor crimes and others being innocent of any crime?......



Originally posted by chinawhite
but you ban being a communist


Ban being a communist?....
In what world are you living? Is that what the CCP is telling you or the crap the Communist agenda is now trying to propagate?.... There is at least one Communist Party in the US, and they are a legal institution even though they propagate lies and even incite the violent overthrow of the US government.....

IMO they should be banned since I come from a communist country, I have seen and know what Communism really does to the people and a country, and I still have family living under that evil doctrine......



[edit on 16-9-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 09:47 PM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

you call that proof? u think im going to take his figures without any sources

Its the The Epoch Times

that is not from a netural site. that site is anti-communist anti-chinese.

do you know how much trash this site makes


I gave many other neutral sites with evidence... with proof.... You just don't want to accept the truth about communism and your country....



Originally posted by chinawhite
I do know who Wang Guoqi is..............


And you think you knowing him discredits him or the other statements made by doctors and Chinese-Americans who have gotten medical help in the states because of complications from those organs they are recieving from executed people in China?........

Nice try, but it is not working.


Originally posted by chinawhite
And i respect FredT because? his a anti-chinese anti-communist


Wether or not he agrees with your communist dogma doesn't mean his expertise in the medical field is less reliable.



Originally posted by chinawhite

what is your edvidence that the majority gets their organs removed?


You claimed you read the links but with this question you are showing me you did not read the links....

Let me show you once again.


a Chinese government document explains the procedures used in the extraction of executed prisoners organs generates between 2,000 and 3,000 human organs sold per year out of an estimated 4,500 executed prisoners.8 Amnesty International reports that, “China put more than 1,200 individuals to death in 1999.”


Excerpted from.
www.american.edu...



Originally posted by chinawhite
the falun gong use to burn themselves on the street.


And there has been some Buddhist student monks who have also burned themselves to death...it doesn't mean Buddhism or in this case Falun Gong condone or incite people to burn themselves...or to kill themselves.

There is a very high rate of suicide in China, and that includes people who are not followers of Falun Gong, or Buddhists.....


Suicide blights China's young adults

Survey reveals main cause of death of people under 35

Jonathan Watts in Xining
Tuesday July 26, 2005
The Guardian

Suicide is the main cause of death among young adults in China, the state media said yesterday in a report that highlights the growing pressures to succeed in love, work and education in one of the world's fastest changing societies.
Increasing stress, loneliness and a lack of medical support for depression are thought to have contributed to an annual suicide toll that is estimated at 250,000 people a year.

According to the China Daily, an additional 2.5 million to 3.5 million make unsuccessful attempts to kill themselves each year.


Excerpted from.
www.guardian.co.uk...


China’s suicide rate has increased to 2.3 times the global average in recent years. Figures report 287,000 deaths per year in China are the result of suicide. An additional two million attempts are unsuccessfully made across the nation in the same amount of time. USA Today reports, “Suicide is the leading cause of death among the Chinese people ages 15 to 34.”

These figures rank China’s suicide rate as ten times that of the United States, and twice as likely based on population alone. Inhabitants of rural areas are three times more likely to commit suicide than urban dwellers.


Excerpted from.
www.msum.org...

The rate of suicide in China has nothing to do with religion....




Originally posted by chinawhite
It is. lifted 300million people out of poverty and managed a average of 10% growth for 25years


Right....while killing mostly innocent people to harvest their organs and skin.....


Originally posted by chinawhite
My government? im australian-chinese. are they trying to overthrow the australian governmnet


You seemed to be regarding this issue too lightly, despite what the facts show, so I believed you must be living in China, or you are a communist.


Originally posted by chinawhite
Any examples (excluding tianmmen square)


First off....why excluding Tiannanmen Square?...... so, it is alright according to you for the Chinese government to shoot and kill disarmed people who were not violent?....

Second of all, we can see by the factsthat every year they kill many innocent people just so they can harvest their organs as skin....



Originally posted by chinawhite
Because its for the people. Chinese people like to see results. if someone steals 10million RMB and only gets 20years there will be riots.


Riiight....I wonder why there are no riots for the executions of up to 15,000 Chinese 69% of them not having comitted serious crimes and many of those just for being pro-democratic, religious, or just because their organs match the blood type of someone rich.....


Originally posted by chinawhite
Known? how do you know. through western reports


Through the reports of human right organizations...through the reports of former Chinese military doctors, and other doctors who have done these procedures or saw what was being done, etc....

I trust those reports more than what the CCP propaganda would try to sell to the world.





Originally posted by chinawhite
I read the links


Riiight.....


Originally posted by chinawhite
Keep on quoting from AI articles


I don't see you providing any evidence at all to refute these facts..... I just see you reciting the CCP (Communis) propaganda...



Originally posted by chinawhite
Exactly your comparing china to a western country.......................

THese are not comparable


How in the freaking world is it normal and alright to murder people for their organs and skin, many of them for making misdemeanor crimes and others being innocent of any crime?......



Originally posted by chinawhite
but you ban being a communist


Ban being a communist?....
In what world are you living? Is that what the CCP is telling you or the crap the Communist agenda is now trying to propagate?.... There is at least one Communist Party in the US, and they are a legal institution even though they propagate lies and even incite the violent overthrow of the US government.....

IMO they should be banned since I come from a communist country, I have seen and know what Communism really does to the people and a country, and I still have family living under that evil doctrine......



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 09:55 PM
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Originally posted by soficrow

The illegal trade in organs is HUGE - world wide. Why suddenly demonize China?


i see....so now you want to defend the Chinese government for killing people for their organs and skin..... 69% of them having committed small crimes and among those 69% many being innocent from any real crimes?......

Your priorities are really messed up Soficrow.... You claim the US government is more evil for lesser things....


Originally posted by soficrow

...Just as illegal organ harvesting is a HUGE capitalistic venture, we can imagine farms for harvesting human embryonic stem cells, ala Nichan's publicly advertised techniques used on cow, sheep, and shark embryos. It's not a big stretch, and nothing is impossible - or morally repugnant - to those with sufficient cash reserves, and what they might perceive as "need."


Wait...so you are saying that it is alright to treat humans as if they were cattle?......



Originally posted by soficrow
Again, why demonize China for endeavors that are the backbone of privatized capitalistic, albeit underground, medical industry?


Errr....because the Chinese government condones and incites this practice...

Because it is inhuman to kill people so their organs and skin can be sold to rich people....

Because that I know of most Western countries condone such practice....yet the Chinese government does not....

You need more reasons?.......



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 10:06 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
I gave many other neutral sites with evidence... with proof.... You just don't want to accept the truth about communism and your country....


AI and epoch times netural...............hahaha




And you think you knowing him discredits him or the other statements made by doctors and Chinese-Americans who have gotten medical help in the states because of complications from those organs they are recieving from executed people in China?........
Nice try, but it is not working.


what statements.

they come out when its necessary




You claimed you read the links but with this question you are showing me you did not read the links....
Let me show you once again.


and it also says this

The explanation for the elevated number of executed prisoners is directly related to the current Chinese Communist Party leaders' decisions to eliminate crime in China. A South China Morning Post article claims that "The executions come after leading law enforcer Luo Gan urged police to strike hard to smash blackness and wipe out evil







And there has been some Buddhist student monks who have also burned themselves to death...it doesn't mean Buddhism or in this case Falun Gong condone or incite people to burn themselves...or to kill themselves.


But in these cases fulan gong made them give themselves to the cause



There is a very high rate of suicide in China, and that includes people who are not followers of Falun Gong, or Buddhists.....


And people comminting suicide is the governmetns fault because?





You seemed to be regarding this issue too lightly, despite what the facts show, so I believed you must be living in China, or you are a communist.


I am neither.
the problem i have is that when i challenged your ""facts"" i am always condemed as a chinese spy or im brainwashed.................




First off....why excluding Tiannanmen Square?...... so, it is alright according to you for the Chinese government to shoot and kill disarmed people who were not violent?....


Non-violent?????

they killed bloody police and soldiers in beijing.




Riiight....I wonder why there are no riots for the executions of up to 15,000 Chinese 69% of them not having comitted serious crimes and many of those just for being pro-democratic, religious, or just because their organs match the blood type of someone rich.....


whats your source on this 15,000 figure?

is it this

According to one estimate based upon internal Chinese Communist Party (CCP) documents, 60,000 people were executed in the four years from 1997-2001, an average of 15,000 people per year, although this figure includes extra-judicial killings, such as those killed during police operations including pursuit and apprehension.



you like changing "facts" dont you



Through the reports of human right organizations...through the reports of former Chinese military doctors, and other doctors who have done these procedures or saw what was being done, etc....


what did they get for revealing these secrets?

A american visa




Riiight.....


i just check who their written by. If there not netural there is no point



I don't see you providing any evidence at all to refute these facts..... I just see you reciting the CCP (Communis) propaganda...


As in how?

How can i provide edvidence if none of these things happened?





Ban being a communist?....
In what world are you living? Is that what the CCP is telling you or the crap the Communist agenda is now trying to propagate?.... There is at least one Communist Party in the US, and they are a legal institution even though they propagate lies and even incite the violent overthrow of the US government.....


I know they banned communism in australia



IMO they should be banned since I come from a communist country, I have seen and know what Communism really does to the people and a country, and I still have family living under that evil doctrine......


So this is why you have a hate for communism.


go figure



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 10:09 PM
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i see....so now you want to defend the Chinese government for killing people for their organs and skin..... 69% of them having committed small crimes and among those 69% many being innocent from any real crimes?......


69% as in non-violent crimes...............

Tax-evasion is a crime in china. when you steal more than 10million US dollars in china you get the firing squad




Errr....because the Chinese government condones and incites this practice...


Is any of this profit going to the party or a few indiviuals wanting to make money?



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 10:37 PM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

69% as in non-violent crimes...............

Tax-evasion is a crime in china. when you steal more than 10million US dollars in china you get the firing squad


Including being pro-democratic, being religious and just having the right blood type or organ for a rich person........




Originally posted by chinawhite
Is any of this profit going to the party or a few indiviuals wanting to make money?


In a Communist regime the money nelongs pretty much to the Communist Party..... Hospitals are also controlled by the CCP and they are not private.... So, yes, the government is the one reaping the profits from selling human organs and skin...



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 10:47 PM
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Originally posted by subz
.............
I can show you many a thread that you have brought up China in to highlight your stance. Why is it unacceptable for me to reply in kind? I think its a bit naieve of you to assume that every human rights abuse is prosecuted in the United States.


First of if i dragged in the past China into the issue, or any other country it is because they have done equal or worse human right abuses.

This thread deals with The CHinese government killing people to harvest organs and skin so they can get a profit. Does the US do that?.... NO....so bringing the US in this thread is just trying to derail the subject.....


Originally posted by subz
You only know what your government allows you to know. Remember the highly critical report published by Amnesty International? Why is it that that report was dismissed by the Bush administration? Why is it that you accept their abrupt rebuff of a report that comes from a highly respected human rights group?


Were the US military in Guantanamo or anywhere else killing people so they can harvest organs and skins from people?..... No.......so your point, whatever it is, is mute and out of context.....



Originally posted by subz
No it doesnt include selling organs and skin, but is that the limit of your moral radar?


Thank you....then if selling organs is not part of what the US does it is not relevant to this discussion... As for moral radar...please....don't even go there when you have been saying that violent criminals who murder and rape people should be treated and viewed as innocent civilians......


Originally posted by subz
Do you find the killing of thousands of innocent civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq by U.S forces acceptable? Or can you not compare one evil act of a government to another evil act of another government?


We are not discussing the war in Iraq, and exagerating your points does not help you at all. Please stay on topic or stay out of the topic...thank you....



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 11:31 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
Including being pro-democratic, being religious and


If they know that they will be killed then why dont they hide it.?



just having the right blood type or organ for a rich person........


They get kidnapped just to test their blood type.? sounds pausable




In a Communist regime the money nelongs pretty much to the Communist Party..... Hospitals are also controlled by the CCP and they are not private.... So, yes, the government is the one reaping the profits from selling human organs and skin...


They are going to kill people for the benefit of the people. thats what your saying

[edit on 16-9-2005 by chinawhite]



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 11:55 PM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

If they know that they will be killed then why dont they hide it.?


Because there is always a percentage of people that will fight for their rights, but the majority stay quiet and "try" to remain annonymous, if that is possible.



Originally posted by chinawhite
They get kidnapped just to test their blood type.? sounds pausable


Perhaps you don't know it but in China there is a depopulation doctrine, limiting the number of kids the Chinese can have. Not only that but in an article not so long ago, evidence was presented that the Chinese government was keeping a database from every citizen of another country...Taiwan.... so there should be little doubt that the Chinese government has database on every chinese citizen, and they could use this database to find likely candidates fo harvest organs among the Chinese people.



Originally posted by chinawhite
They are going to kill people for the benefit of the people. thats what your saying

[edit on 16-9-2005 by chinawhite]


No...for the benefit of the Communist Party...how can it be the benefit of the people when they are being killed for harvesting their organs and skin?...



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 12:59 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

AI and epoch times netural...............hahaha


Have any evidence or just empty and false claims?.....



Originally posted by chinawhite
what statements.

they come out when its necessary


the ones i keep providing and you keep ignoring....those are the ones...



Originally posted by chinawhite
and it also says this

The explanation for the elevated number of executed prisoners is directly related to the current Chinese Communist Party leaders' decisions to eliminate crime in China. A South China Morning Post article claims that "The executions come after leading law enforcer Luo Gan urged police to strike hard to smash blackness and wipe out evil


Riiight...and that still gives the right to the CCP to kill people for harvesting organs....



Originally posted by chinawhite
And people comminting suicide is the governmetns fault because?


I was pointing out that suicide in China is one of the highest if not the highest in the world....



Originally posted by chinawhite
I am neither.
the problem i have is that when i challenged your ""facts"" i am always condemed as a chinese spy or im brainwashed.................


The problem is that you are not presenting evidence to refute the evidence i have given. You refuse to accept it as evidence even thou this issue has been brought up by many nations.

Did i say you are a chinese spy?....no

Are you brainwashed? You seem to want to believe only what the communist regime in China says, and not what the facts say.



Originally posted by chinawhite
Non-violent?????

they killed bloody police and soldiers in beijing.


Riiight....and this comes from whom?....the CCP?.....




Originally posted by chinawhite
whats your source on this 15,000 figure?

is it this

According to one estimate based upon internal Chinese Communist Party (CCP) documents, 60,000 people were executed in the four years from 1997-2001, an average of 15,000 people per year, although this figure includes extra-judicial killings, such as those killed during police operations including pursuit and apprehension.



you like changing "facts" dont you


No, but you seem to like to avoid the truth about facts.... i have to wonder why the Chinese police are killing 13,000 people a year during pursuit and apprehension...... not during gun battles, not during violent confrontation but while those people are running or when they are apprehended....



Originally posted by chinawhite
what did they get for revealing these secrets?

A american visa


And your proof again?.....

What about the reports from human right groups, American doctors who had to check Chinese-Americans for problems with their cheap organ transplants etc etc?.....




Originally posted by chinawhite
i just check who their written by. If there not netural there is no point


Riiight.... and on the meanwhile you trust only the CCP which according to you is obviously not biased and is telling the whole truth?......




Originally posted by chinawhite
As in how?

How can i provide edvidence if none of these things happened?


You keep saying the same, but the facts say differently....




Originally posted by chinawhite
I know they banned communism in australia


If that is true, they are very wise in Australia. There is not one thing that Communism has done for the good of the people or the good of any country.


Originally posted by chinawhite
So this is why you have a hate for communism.


go figure


Oh... i see your point.... So people who have lived through Communism and know the truth of it are not reliable sources of information?....


You need to wake up and smell the coffee.....which means, you need to face reality and stop believing what the CCP keeps saying, while the rest of the world, and the evidence shows that the CCP is killing people so they can harvest organs and skin, among some of the other things they do....

[edit on 17-9-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 01:10 AM
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Im am appalled that anybody would have the personal ethics or lack thereof to even try to defend this type of practice. From trying to say its okay cause they are criminals to its okay cause the government sanctions it, to trying to strawman the argument by pointing fingers at other governments :shk:



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 01:33 AM
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Communism is not banned in Australia. It died because of declining popularity when people realized that communism is a pestilence and a deception to enslave the people rather than free them. The communist mantle was taken up by the Socialist Party of Australia which still exists today, but they have virtually zero membership and zero political influence. The extent of their influence is handing out pamphlets on the sidewalk. And thank God for that.



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 02:39 AM
link   

Originally posted by Muaddib
Have any evidence or just empty and false claims?.....


do i even need edvidence.

just read anything they write.




the ones i keep providing and you keep ignoring....those are the ones...


ignoring..? give me netural sources. Even Times or CNN



Riiight...and that still gives the right to the CCP to kill people for harvesting organs....


And organ transplant organisations havest their patients



The problem is that you are not presenting evidence to refute the evidence i have given. You refuse to accept it as evidence even thou this issue has been brought up by many nations.


how can i present edvidence for something that never happened.



Are you brainwashed? You seem to want to believe only what the communist regime in China says, and not what the facts say.


Have i posted CCP documents have i quoted what they said?



Riiight....and this comes from whom?....the CCP?.....


Take your pick.



Two days later, Yuan Mu, the speaker of the State Council, estimated that 300 soldiers and citizens died, as well as 5,000 soldiers and 2,000 citizens injured, 400 soldiers lost contact

en.wikipedia.org...

www.alternativeinsight.com...
www.sinomania.com...



Clutching iron pipes and stones, groups of students periodically advanced toward the soldiers. Some threw bricks and firebombs at the lines of soldiers, apparently wounding many of them.

Many of those killed were throwing bricks at the soldiers, but others were simply watching passively or standing at barricades when soldiers fired directly at them.

www.mtholyoke.edu...]






No, but you seem to like to avoid the truth about facts.... i have to wonder why the Chinese police are killing 13,000 people a year during pursuit and apprehension...... not during gun battles, not during violent confrontation but while those people are running or when they are apprehended....


like me guess. they catch them then check the blood type to use to find a customer?




And your proof again?.....
What about the reports from human right groups, American doctors who had to check Chinese-Americans for problems with their cheap organ transplants etc etc?.....


I dont doubt that this doesn't happen. i just dont agree with your amount




Riiight.... and on the meanwhile you trust only the CCP which according to you is obviously not biased and is telling the whole truth?......


CNN TIMES. anything alone them lines.

epoch times or human rights groups are way to bias



Oh... i see your point.... So people who have lived through Communism and know the truth of it are not reliable sources of information?....


As in eastern european type of communism. that was botched.



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 05:00 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
do i even need edvidence.


YES.......


Originally posted by chinawhite
just read anything they write.


I have, and your point is?......



Originally posted by chinawhite
ignoring..? give me netural sources. Even Times or CNN


*Yawn*.......


Oppression and infringement
Because of their beliefs and convictions, these people face oppression and serious infringement upon their basic human rights.

At the core of such human rights abuses in China today lies a systemized mechanism known as the Laogai that exists for the purpose of crushing human beings physically, psychologically and spiritually.

This system of at least 1,100 known forced-labor camps is driven by hard-line ideology, Communist Party directives and the whims of local cadres. It is designed as a repressive mechanism to control and, in effect, eliminate anyone whose political, religious or societal views differ from those of the Communist Party.
.........................

Organ harvesting
As the Laogai crushes the human spirit and often tortures the human body, it also becomes an integral part of the Chinese economy through the sale and even export of products made in forced labor camps.


Prisoners who receive the death sentence in China also become potential resources of government profit through a policy of organ harvesting known as the "provisional regulation on the use of executed prisoners' corpses and organs," which was passed on October 9, 1984.

Chinese officials admit that by 1996 around 20,000 kidneys already had been harvested from executed prisoners. The party, judicial and penal officials and even doctors perpetuate these inexcusable crimes through propaganda claiming "concern for the welfare of patients needing transplants" and "productive use of an otherwise wasted resource."


Excerpted from.
www.cnn.com...


There are reports of a growing trend in which the organs of prisoners executed in China are used for transplants. As many as 5,000 organs might be available this year alone, and many will go to Americans. The practice raises serious ethical questions about whether the prisoners actually give consent for the donation of their organs and, if so, whether the decision could possibly be free and not coerced.

There are even reports that some of the donors were innocent and were pressured into a confession and subsequent execution.
It is unclear whether such donations would meet the standards for consent in the United States and elsewhere -- U.S. prisoners who are executed are not offered the option to donate their organs after they die.


Excerpted from.
archives.cnn.com...


Originally posted by chinawhite
And organ transplant organisations havest their patients


No, again you show you haven't read the excerpts. The practice is allowed by the government, in fact it was the Chinese government who in 1984 passed a law making it legal to harvest organs and skin from executed prisoners.



Originally posted by chinawhite
how can i present edvidence for something that never happened.


You keep saying the same, i keep giving more information and you keep trying to make excuses for the inhuman actions of the Chinese government.....



Originally posted by chinawhite
Have i posted CCP documents have i quoted what they said?


You keep saying that everyone else is wrong, while accept what the CCP says as nothing but the truth....



Riiight....and this comes from whom?....the CCP?.....


Take your pick.
en.wikipedia.org...

And you forget to add the following part............


Estimates of civilian deaths which resulted vary: 400-800 (New York Times [1]), 1,000 (NSA), and 2,600 (Chinese Red Cross). Student protesters maintained that over 7,000 were killed. Injuries are generally held to have numbered between 7,000 to 10,000, including casualties among PLA troops. The government silenced doctors who attempted to give figures of how many dead and wounded lay in their clinics and hospitals. Following the violence, the government conducted widespread arrests to suppress the remaining supporters of the movement, limited access for the foreign press and controlled coverage of the events in the mainland Chinese press. The belief in the west of a violent suppression of the Tiananmen Square protest caused widespread international condemnation of the PRC government.


Excerpted from.
en.wikipedia.org...

But the CCP is not lying right?....there is no reason for them to silence doctors and those who were there.... I guess they couldn't have exagerated what happened there right?.....



Originally posted by chinawhite
I dont doubt that this doesn't happen. i just dont agree with your amount


I just gave you an amount from CNN...the only source you trust....appart from the CCP....



Originally posted by chinawhite

As in eastern european type of communism. that was botched.


Riiight....along with every other communist country that has existed, or exists in the world?...Vietnam, Cuba, Angola.....etc, etc?...... All of them were botched according to you?.... Riiiight.....that's the same excuse the new communists give to try to revive their propaganda and incite people to accept their lies...

[edit on 17-9-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 05:07 AM
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Another link from CNN, the one you trust so much relying information on how the Chinese government lied, and continues to lie....with some other interesting information...


BEIJING (CNN) -- Chinese authorities on Tuesday said they knew nothing about two men charged in the United States with allegedly trying to sell organs from executed Chinese prisoners, and said such trafficking would not be tolerated.

"The relevant departments of the People's Republic of China have repeatedly indicated clearly that such incidents would never happen in China. Should it occur, the Chinese law will punish the culprits," said Foreign Ministry spokesman Zhu Bangzao.
....................
The men -- Cheng Yong Wang, 41, and Xingqi Fu, 35, both living in Flushing, New York -- were arrested Friday. The complaints alleged they tried to sell corneas, kidneys, livers, skin, pancreases and lungs for transplant.

Prosecutors said an informant showed them papers indicating that Wang had been a prosecutor in southern China's island province of Hainan and that he participated in the execution of Chinese prisoners.
.....................
According to the complaint, Fu asked the agent how old skin could be to be sold, and promised that lungs would come from nonsmokers.

Wang signed a contract February 13 with the informant -- identified in court papers only as "Person A" -- saying he coordinated with Chinese government agencies and hospitals to get organs for transplant, prosecutors said. The transplants would be performed in China for non-Chinese, the complaint said.


Excerpted from.
www2.cnn.com...





[edit on 17-9-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 05:43 AM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
I have, and your point is?......


NVM.




Excerpted from.
www.cnn.com...


This is a opinion not written by a journalist



archives.cnn.com...
There are reports of a growing trend in which the organs of prisoners executed in China are used for transplants. As many as 5,000 organs might be available this year alone, and many will go to Americans. The practice raises serious ethical questions about whether the prisoners actually give consent for the donation of their organs and, if so, whether the decision could possibly be free and not coerced.


It said might as in a possible number not the number.






No, again you show you haven't read the excerpts. The practice is allowed by the government, in fact it was the Chinese government who in 1984 passed a law making it legal to harvest organs and skin from executed prisoners.


The law that was passed allowed prisoners on death row to give there body after they die.

Talk about exaggerate




You keep saying the same, i keep giving more information and you keep trying to make excuses for the inhuman actions of the Chinese government.....


What edvidence.

you gave me some western BS. what edvidence





You keep saying that everyone else is wrong, while accept what the CCP says as nothing but the truth....


Huh. can you quote me on this..............




But the CCP is not lying right?....there is no reason for them to silence doctors and those who were there.... I guess they couldn't have exagerated what happened there right?.....


you mean the US government estimate?


However, it is important to note that NSA documents declassified in 1999 show that their intelligence gives an estimate of 180-500 killed.

en.wikipedia.org...


And you forget to add the following part............


No i didn't because we weren't talking about the death toll but the death of the troops





All of them were botched according to you?.... Riiiight.....that's the same excuse the new communists give to try to revive their propaganda and incite people to accept their lies...


Do you know the difference between socialism and communism.

the difference between Maxist-Leninest. and stalinism. Maoism.

You confuse communism with cruder forms of socialism.

communism is more closer to demoracy than you think.


China is a one party dictorship with a market economy. People are free to invest their money move around.


Riiight....along with every other communist country that has existed, or exists in the world?...Vietnam, Cuba, Angola.....etc, etc?......


Communism was not forced on these people but they joined the communist. people in Eastern europe got forced to accept communism



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 05:47 AM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
Another link from CNN, the one you trust so much relying information on how the Chinese government lied, and continues to lie....with some other interesting information...


I trust CNN so much because of their good information







BEIJING (CNN) -- Chinese authorities on Tuesday said they knew nothing about two men charged in the United States with allegedly trying to sell organs from executed Chinese prisoners, and said such trafficking would not be tolerated.

"The relevant departments of the People's Republic of China have repeatedly indicated clearly that such incidents would never happen in China. Should it occur, the Chinese law will punish the culprits," said Foreign Ministry spokesman Zhu Bangzao.
....................
The men -- Cheng Yong Wang, 41, and Xingqi Fu, 35, both living in Flushing, New York -- were arrested Friday. The complaints alleged they tried to sell corneas, kidneys, livers, skin, pancreases and lungs for transplant.

Prosecutors said an informant showed them papers indicating that Wang had been a prosecutor in southern China's island province of Hainan and that he participated in the execution of Chinese prisoners.
.....................
According to the complaint, Fu asked the agent how old skin could be to be sold, and promised that lungs would come from nonsmokers.

Wang signed a contract February 13 with the informant -- identified in court papers only as "Person A" -- saying he coordinated with Chinese government agencies and hospitals to get organs for transplant, prosecutors said. The transplants would be performed in China for non-Chinese, the complaint said.



This proves what i am saying. this is carried out by indiviual people. not government co-ordinated.



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 05:57 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
...................
This proves what i am saying. this is carried out by indiviual people. not government co-ordinated.


What in the world is wrong with you?....didn't you read the rest of the information i gave?.... of course the Chinese government is going to claim it was not them.... They lied and claimed back in the 1990s that they weren't doing this, when the facts proved otherwise, then they said it was true but that all their prisoners agree to their organs being harvested.... yeah right....

You are a lost case.... you believe only what the CCP tells you...you don't even believe CNN....



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