NEWS: Chinese Beauty Products Made From the Skins of Chinese Executed Prisoners

Originally posted by FredT
THis is truly the "Evil Empire" that Reagan spoke of during his presidency :shk: So where are all the pro Chinese propaganda agents that populate other threads?

Because i didn't know about this. i thought it was anti-terror news

Its one thing to donate your organs willingly, its another to be executed by the state then have your parts sold off to the higest bidder. No doubt this is something Dr. Mengela would have approved of

The articles dont say if they agreed or disagreed.

And says that this is not un-common in china

1) How would you like it if you had a family member that did not want to donate and yet you found out they had gone ahead when he/she had been in an accident without the permission from them or the family.

and what is the percentage of these excutions do people get their organs taken out.

They have permission to take the organs out. your bending the truth to fit your needs

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
That's capitalism and the value-added chain for you.

I have a question. Who owns the body of a homo sapiens in China when it is alive? Who owns it when it is dead?

That's communism using capitalism to make money and stay afloat, but it is not capitalism Masked....

As to your second question the CCP owns people in China as we can see by the evidence.

Originally posted by chinawhite

Because i didn't know about this. i thought it was anti-terror news.

I think many Chinese are trully terrorized about this, and this is a conspiracy forum, which of course you have to back up with facts.

Originally posted by chinawhite
The articles dont say if they agreed or disagreed.

I pretty much think that noone is going to agree to being tortured to death and then their organs being removed while they are alive.....

Originally posted by chinawhite
And says that this is not un-common in china

What it says is that it is not uncommon in China is to use the organs/skin of executed people for profit. Many of those people being innocent and a mayority of those people never committed a serious crime. People have been/are executed for being religious, for being pro-democratic, evading taxes, ect.

[edit on 16-9-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by chinawhite
and what is the percentage of these excutions do people get their organs taken out.

Originally posted by chinawhite
They have permission to take the organs out. your bending the truth to fit your needs

In one of the links I gave, from Amnesty international I believe, it says that families have tried to sue the Chinese government because they did not have permission to remove the organs, so there is no "bending of truth to fit your needs....."

Originally posted by Muaddib
I think many Chinese are trully terrorized about this, and this is a conspiracy forum, which of course you have to back up with facts.

Read again. i didn't know about this thread

I pretty much think that noone is going to agree to being tortured to death and then their organs being removed while they are alive.....

i said agreed to give up their organs. chinese dont torture them before they get excuted two bullets in the head.

and their is not reliabe proof that anyone is excuted alive

What it says is that it is not uncommon in China is to use the organs/skin of executed people for profit. Many of those people being innocent and a mayority of those people never committed a serious crime.

In china there is different laws and you need to respect them. you dont copare laws of different countries

People have been/are executed for being religious,

for being what. burning themselves in public?

for being pro-democratic,

calling for the end of the PRC

evading taxes, ect.

that is a offence in any country. only people that commit a very large crime do they get the death penalty

Originally posted by Muaddib
In one of the links I gave, from Amnesty international I believe, it says that families have tried to sue the Chinese government because they did not have permission to remove the organs, so there is no "bending of truth to fit your needs....."

It said one family sued because they didn't give their concent.

Last time i checked if you are over 18 you dont need mummy and daddy to hold your hand

Originally posted by Muaddib
I think many Chinese are trully terrorized about this, and this is a conspiracy forum, which of course you have to back up with facts.

your amazing facts.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All posted by you in the page before

A recent report alleges that organs from some of these dead Falun Gong practitioners had been removed.

www.asianresearch.org...

According to one estimate based upon internal Chinese Communist Party (CCP) documents, 60,000 people were executed in the four years from 1997-2001, an average of 15,000 people per year, although this figure includes extra-judicial killings, such as those killed during police operations including pursuit and apprehension

web.amnesty.org...




[edit on 16-9-2005 by chinawhite]

Originally posted by Muaddib
Unlike some of your own posts subz, I don't exagerate, I report the facts.

you just report estimates and accusations.

Same difference?... so in your opinion it is exactly the same to execute civilians who have never murdered anyone or done any other serious crimes just for their body parts and the death penalty for people that have commited hienous crimes like raping and killing a child? I feel pity for you subz if you can't see the difference....

any estimates or accusations of the percentage of Crimmials that give up their organs.

Any names of these people?

I have stated several times that I am not a religious person, so your point is mute.

but do you have a religion

The difference is that in the one hand you have the Chinese government killing people just to harvest organs, most of those people being innocent and never having done any serious crimes, like raping and killing a child, while the Chinese kill people just for harvesting organs. There is a difference subz....

harvesting? i like your exaggeration

When organs are taken for transplantation (Either with consent or int eh case of the Chinese Gulags without) the term used is "Harvesting"

Originally posted by FredT
When organs are taken for transplantation (Either with consent or int eh case of the Chinese Gulags without) the term used is "Harvesting"

Show me a report where it states that a chinese crimmial does not give their consent to give up their organs

Public executions in china are public events and are not hiden from the public.

here is a good article from wikipedia about Capital punishment in china

Originally posted by chinawhite

i said agreed to give up their organs. chinese dont torture them before they get excuted two bullets in the head.

You obviously either did not read the links and excerpts I gave, and the responses from FredT, or you are just choosing to ignoring them.

I also think it is highly unlikely that people who are being executed for lesser crimes, including being pro-democratic, are going to agree to give up their organs.... They do not want to die in the first place.....

Anyways.... let me help you once again with some proof.

Between July 20, 1999 and July 1, 2004, at least 1,000 Falun Gong practitioners were tortured to death in China. These practitioners, 52 percent of whom were female, had an average age of 44 years. A recent report alleges that organs from some of these dead Falun Gong practitioners had been removed.

Excerpted from.
www.asianresearch.org...

Please do note the part that says they were tortured to death....

Let's see an article from Amnesty international, again...

There were at least 650 executions reported in local media in the months of December
and January alone. Both months are considered to be ‘normal’, without the peaks seen around certain
public holidays, although the true figure is certainly much higher, as China refuses to publish full details of
all the people it executes.
"There is a huge gap between policy and practice with regard to the death penalty in
China," said Catherine Baber, Deputy Asia Director at Amnesty International. "While the government
claims that the death penalty is applied cautiously, the ritual peak in executions we’re witnessing at the
moment completely undermines any pretence of ‘caution’."
"Moreover, there is the very real concern that a number of those executed may have been innocent: China’s justice system is simply not sound enough to guarantee a fair trial."

Many reports of recent executions in China have justified the execution of ten or more people at a time as a way to 'protect social stability, and ensure that people can have a safe, joyful and happy new year'.

Excerpted from.
news.amnesty.org...$FILE/newsrelease.pdf

Originally posted by chinawhite
and their is not reliabe proof that anyone is excuted alive

I don't understand what you are trying to say with the above. No reliable proof anyone is executed alive? People have to be alive to be executed.

If you are trying to say there is no proof noone is being tortured to death, or that noone was alive when they were removing their organs check again the excerpts i gave and links....and check again the responses from FredT also on the procedures for transplanting organs.

Originally posted by chinawhite
In china there is different laws and you need to respect them. you dont copare laws of different countries

And that makes it alright for the Chinese government to execute large amounts of people, a mayority who are innocent of any real crimes, just so the CCP can harvest their organs and skin?.....

Originally posted by chinawhite
for being what. burning themselves in public?

Are you telling us the police in China burn people also on the streets?...

Originally posted by chinawhite
calling for the end of the PRC

So then the Chinese government is not working for the people?

First of, you are exagerating, these people are reported being executed for being pro-democratic, not for trying to violently overthrow your government.

Second, why is it called The People's Republic, when it obviously executing more people than anyone else, including known innocent people who just happen to have an organ a rich person is paying for?....

Perhaps they should change the name from The People's Republic of China, to The Dictator's Republic of China.

Originally posted by chinawhite
that is a offence in any country. only people that commit a very large crime do they get the death penalty

Again, either you did not read the excerpts and links I gave, or you are choosing to ignore them altogether.

Amnesty International and other human right groups have ben reporting for a long time that people in China are being executed for evading taxes, along with those who are pro-democratic, etc. Or even just because the government of China thought that "they needed to protect the social stability" and needed to kill people....

Evasion of taxes does not merit the death penalty in any western countries, and neither does the other crimes the Chinese keep claiming their people are commiting, such as being pro-democratic (We don't kill people in the west for being Communists) etc, etc....


[edit on 16-9-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by FredT
Okay then. I think I have put forth more anti China articles than Muaddib so I will wade into this one. This story like others I have put forth has been backed up by 1) China's frequent efforts to show that they have a brutal government and commit crimes against humanity on an almost routine basis.

To which I didnt question any of that, I merely stated that if you want to demonize an entire country then you'll have to accept that your're being purely subjective. It also applies to other countries which the likes of Muaddib doesnt accept. He rejects the notion of America being a regular human rights abusing country yet he wants to portray China's dirty deeds on a regular basis. I think I made it quite clear that I find the death penalty abhorrant so I dont think I was making any excuses for China here. I was merely saying that Muaddib should bear in mind that he is making subjective judgements as any ethical judgments of his are canceled out by his support of similar American practices.

Originally posted by FredT
As he has pointed out in the Communist paradise, the death penalty is and can be applied to the Falun Gong, Tibetan Monks, Pro Democracy supporters, political dissidents, etc etc etc.

That's neither here nor there to me, as I have said. I believe that any execution is wrong including what you might deem acceptable cases. To me, I think executing dissidents is wrong and so is executing murderers. Hence my posting that its a subjective argument and a shaky one at best if you allow for executions in other circumstances.

Take Guantanamo Bay for example, the detainees there are likely to face the death penalty. So far they have not been charged but held for 3+ years. Why is it that this is acceptable to Mr.Morality-Muaddib but when China abuses people he's on them like flies round poo? Thats my point, not that what China is doing is in any way shape or form acceptable to me.

Originally posted by FredT
In regards to taking the organs:

1) How would you like it if you had a family member that did not want to donate and yet you found out they had gone ahead when he/she had been in an accident without the permission from them or the family.

Remember, I didnt condone what the Chinese did. But in all honesty if I knew my family member was going to die I wouldnt complain in the slightest if their organs were taken to save some one elses live. I really wouldnt mind, and I dont think any good-hearted person would begrudge saving some ones so they can have their vital organs rot alongside their corpse.

Originally posted by FredT
2) How long till we have "Oooops sorry fella, you have the right blood type, a nd your kidneys fetch a high price, see ya next life) or worse, living donor banks. What a kidney, liver lobe, some small intestine, a lung among imprisoned friends no?

I dont know.

Originally posted by FredT
Ethical issues you bet HUGE ones. I am surprised by the callous replies, Eh? They are prisoners, that okay. I'm sure Dr. mengela thought EXACTLY the same way :shk:

How was it callous? I think executing any one is callous. That you can accept the execution of one criminal (who maybe innocent lets not forget) and then say China doesnt have the right to execute who they deem appropriate is a shaky argument.

Originally posted by FredT
Religious issues? Nope, I'm an atheist

Ask a Jehovas Witness what they think about organ donation, I think you'll find they would see it as a religious issue. I also didnt direct that at any one as it is a religious issue.

[edit on 16/9/05 by subz]

Originally posted by subz
Remember, I didnt condone what the Chinese did. But in all honesty if I knew my family member was going to die I wouldnt complain in the slightest if their organs were taken to save some one elses live. I really wouldnt mind, and I dont think any good-hearted person would begrudge saving some ones life so they can have their vital organs rot alongside their corpse.

Would you still feel this way if the person recieving your family member's organs was rich, powerful, and and your family member was executed specifically to provide organs for them?

Come on, subz. Do you honestly think this isn't going on?

Just for the record, I also believe that there are rich and powerful people in the West who would do the exact same thing (and maybe already are) if they could get away with it.

Human nature. Hope for the best, but expect the worst.

[Edit Added]
Oh yeah, lets remember that the original topic is about Beauty Products made from skin. Hardly a lifesaving gift from the poor executed serf.
[Edit End]


[edit on 16-9-2005 by Ambient Sound]

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
Would you still feel this way if the person recieving your family member's organs was rich, powerful, and and your family member was executed specifically to provide organs for them?

Come on, subz. Do you honestly think this isn't going on?

Thats not what I was asked. Obviously I wouldnt accept the hypothetical you described. Again, I never condoned what the Chinese are doing. How many times do I have to say that?

Originally posted by subz

To which I didnt question any of that, I merely stated that if you want to demonize an entire country then you'll have to accept that your're being purely subjective.

I am not demonizing and entire country, i am demonizing the Communist party of China, the government of China.

Originally posted by subz
It also applies to other countries which the likes of Muaddib doesnt accept.

Since when has this thread turned into a topic about me?.......

Originally posted by subz
He rejects the notion of America being a regular human rights abusing country yet he wants to portray China's dirty deeds on a regular basis.

Have there been some human right abuses done by the US? yes, of course there have been, but when there has been these abuses, a full investigation is done, and something is done about it, unlike what happens in China, which is the subject of this thread. The human abuses of the US you are so willing to point out, do not include killing innocent people so they can profit from selling the organs and skin of those innocent people..... and remember this is about China and the willingness of that government to use their people as cattle for products....which include organs and skin.....

Originally posted by subz
I was merely saying that Muaddib should bear in mind that he is making subjective judgements as any ethical judgments of his are canceled out by his support of similar American practices.

Similar American practices?..... You are calling similar American practices to the detention of Iraqi people, many if not most who were caught fighting against the coalition. Those that were found innocent were released. Have some military personnel been involved in the death of some prisoners? yes, and they have been prosecuted something that does not happen in China.....

Originally posted by subz
That's neither here nor there to me, as I have said. I believe that any execution is wrong including what you might deem acceptable cases.

Then I guess you better detach yourself from reality and try to find a place where no government does any wrongs at all.... I don't think you will find any government in this planet capable of doing that.....because people make mistakes, still something like what keeps happening in CHina, are beyond "human mistakes," and beyond the actions of some corrupted and perverted people. It is a whole government whose sole purpose is to tag a crime they deem acceptable to innocent people, so they can harvest their organs and their skin for profit.

Originally posted by subz
To me, I think executing dissidents is wrong and so is executing murderers. Hence my posting that its a subjective argument and a shaky one at best if you allow for executions in other circumstances.

Originally posted by subz
Take Guantanamo Bay for example, the detainees there are likely to face the death penalty.

We don't deal in rumors here last time I checked...well i guess it has changed a bit. Anyways, if you want to prove something, present proof that these people are facing the death penalty, and present proof that they are innocent, instead of just making claims.

Originally posted by subz
So far they have not been charged but held for 3+ years. Why is it that this is acceptable to Mr.Morality-Muaddib but when China abuses people he's on them like flies round poo? Thats my point, not that what China is doing is in any way shape or form acceptable to me.

So first your claim they face the death penalty, and then you say so far they are not being charged?........

BTW, this is about CHINA stay on topic please.....

Originally posted by subz
Remember, I didnt condone what the Chinese did. But in all honesty if I knew my family member was going to die I wouldnt complain in the slightest if their organs were taken to save some one elses live. I really wouldnt mind, and I dont think any good-hearted person would begrudge saving some ones so they can have their vital organs rot alongside their corpse.

First of, yes, you are condoning what the chinese government is doing, because you see innocent civilians in the same light as murderers/rapers/etc, etc.....

Second of all, I doubt that people who are innocent are going to agree to donate their organs.....since they want to live and they have not done anything wrong....

Originally posted by FredT
2) How long till we have "Oooops sorry fella, you have the right blood type, a nd your kidneys fetch a high price, see ya next life) or worse, living donor banks. What a kidney, liver lobe, some small intestine, a lung among imprisoned friends no?

It is already happening, and it seems to have been happening for a while.

Originally posted by subz
How was it callous? I think executing any one is callous. That you can accept the execution of one criminal (who maybe innocent lets not forget) and then say China doesnt have the right to execute who they deem appropriate is a shaky argument.

Then if we follow that line of reasoning and let's say, a police officer is watching as a man is about to kill another innocent man\woman\child in cold blood, according to you it is "callous" to kill that criminal.......

Subz, you still don't seem to understand that in societies there are rules. If you commit a crime, like raping and murdering a child, or murdering anyone without it being self defense, you have to pay for that crime. You seem to be unwilling to accept that people are accountable for their actions, for whatever reason/s it is that you are unable to accept this fact, it is still a fact. You shoplift an electronic product, and you will go to jail for that, unless it is your first crime.

But killing people because they are pro-democratic or because the government deems it a necessity to keep the peace when the people being executed have no done any crimes....that is wrong.

Originally posted by Muaddib
You obviously either did not read the links and excerpts I gave, and the responses from FredT, or you are just choosing to ignoring them.
I also think it is highly unlikely that people who are being executed for lesser crimes, including being pro-democratic, are going to agree to give up their organs.... They do not want to die in the first place.....
Anyways.... let me help you once again with some proof.

you call that proof? u think im going to take his figures without any sources

Its the The Epoch Times

that is not from a netural site. that site is anti-communist anti-chinese.

do you know how much trash this site makes

I don't understand what you are trying to say with the above. No reliable proof anyone is executed alive? People have to be alive to be executed.

If you are trying to say there is no proof noone is being tortured to death, or that noone was alive when they were removing their organs check again the excerpts i gave and links....and check again the responses from FredT also on the procedures for transplanting organs.

I do know who Wang Guoqi is..............

And i respect FredT because? his a anti-chinese anti-communist

And that makes it alright for the Chinese government to execute large amounts of people, a mayority who are innocent of any real crimes, just so the CCP can harvest their organs and skin?.....

what is your edvidence that the majority gets their organs removed?

Are you telling us the police in China burn people also on the streets?...

the falun gong use to burn themselves on the street.

So then the Chinese government is not working for the people?

It is. lifted 300million people out of poverty and managed a average of 10% growth for 25years

First of, you are exagerating, these people are reported being executed for being pro-democratic, not for trying to violently overthrow your government.

My government? im australian-chinese. are they trying to overthrow the australian governmnet

Any examples (excluding tianmmen square)

Second, why is it called The People's Republic, when it obviously executing more people than anyone else,

Because its for the people. Chinese people like to see results. if someone steals 10million RMB and only gets 20years there will be riots.

including known innocent people who just happen to have an organ a rich person is paying for?....

Known? how do you know. through western reports

Again, either you did not read the excerpts and links I gave, or you are choosing to ignore them altogether.

I read the links

Amnesty International and other human right groups have ben reporting for a long time that people in China are being executed for evading taxes, along with those who are pro-democratic, etc. Or even just because the government of China thought that "they needed to protect the social stability" and needed to kill people....

Keep on quoting from AI articles

Evasion of taxes does not merit the death penalty in any western countries, and neither does the other crimes the Chinese keep claiming their people are commiting,

Exactly your comparing china to a western country.......................

THese are not comparable

such as being pro-democratic (We don't kill people in the west for being Communists) etc, etc....

but you ban being a communist

China carried out almost 90 per cent of the world's executions last year, putting at least 5,000 people to death, according to an activist group campaigning to end capital punishment.

China is one of 60 countries that still have the death penalty, the Rome-based group Hands Off Cain said in a report issued yesterday. It said other governments carried out more than 500 executions.


China's government relies heavily on the death penalty in an effort to reassure the public that it is taking action against corruption and rising crime. People are executed for crimes ranging from murder and rape to tax fraud, petty theft and other nonviolent offences.

www.smh.com.au...

Notice i quote from western sites.

.


The illegal trade in organs is HUGE - world wide. Why suddenly demonize China?

*Search "Gordon Thomas" "organ hunters" etc.


"Pure" cells have been used in folk medicines for eons. Filthy rich folks have been getting "live cell therapy" using human embryonic cells since 1912 at least.

* Search +Kuettner +"live cell therapy"


Not so rich but very wealthy people have been getting non-human embryonic live cell therapy since 1931, at least.

* Search +"Nichans, P" OR "Paul Nichans" +"live cell therapy" OR "embryonic" OR cellular


...Just as illegal organ harvesting is a HUGE capitalistic venture, we can imagine farms for harvesting human embryonic stem cells, ala Nichan's publicly advertised techniques used on cow, sheep, and shark embryos. It's not a big stretch, and nothing is impossible - or morally repugnant - to those with sufficient cash reserves, and what they might perceive as "need."

Again, why demonize China for endeavors that are the backbone of privatized capitalistic, albeit underground, medical industry?


.

[edit on 16-9-2005 by soficrow]