criss angel discussion...

Originally posted by pavil
C'mon Eyewitness.

You just said Copperfield has never been able to perform like CA. Right away I show you them doing the same Illusion and suddenly you get all silent on me. At least you could say it means NOTHING, as you so often do. Is your last name Schultz as in Sgt. Schultz from Hogan's Hero's?

I See NOTHING. C'mon lets here your rationale for this.

I NEVER said that Copperfield has never been able to perform the same illusions as Criss. Go back and READ my words. I said, and you know this but ignored it in the interest on dishonest quoting, that Copperfield cannot do the same EVENTS as Criss MEANING the HIGH LEVITATIONS !! We are TALKING ABOUT HIGH LEVITATIONS!! NOT any other gimmick, trick, stunt, illusion, etc. ONLY high levitations...OK Got that? Clear enough this time? Thank you.

Copperfield CANNOT go into the public and into the streets, or on top of building, and do what Criss does ...NO ONE CAN. Or they would!! Copperfield cannot and has not ever attempted an open air levitation; he cannot because he cannot actually levitate; he is JUST an illusionist; Criss is ALSO an illusionist, a difference most deniers simply cannot comprehend, for some reason.

Once again, so you do not waste any more of our time, we are talking about HIGH LEVITATIONS and we are NOT talking about comparing Criss feats in illusion to those of his fellow professionals...that is NOT the issue.

The issue is high levitations in the open air, in public, with NO props evidence, witnessed, photographed or alleged.....Copperfield cannot do those, now can he? If you say yes, then go find a video of it and show us...otherwise please do not attempt to alter the nature of the debate by more obfuscatory nonsense.

I would rather be seen as Sgt . Schultz, who always said " I know NOTHING ", rather than get involved than to be seen like you, as Commandant Clink, clueless and obviously so and outwitted on all sides thus confiming the fact that it was really HE all along that was the one deceived. So, Commandant, got any proof of anyone else doing high levitations with no props seen, etc.? No??!! I thought not.

In order to educate the posters here who are operating with little or no knowledge of the subject, here are some links and info that will expalin the differences between levitation types and the history of such, including some famous examples, verified historically. Take a look before making any more assumptions:

en.wikipedia.org...

Here is some info on Daniel Dungas Home :

en.wikipedia.org...

From that link:

"
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle stated that Home was unusual in that he had four different types of mediumship: direct voice (the ability to let spirits audibly speak); trance speaker (the ability to let spirits speak through oneself); clairvoyant (ability to see things that are out of view); and physical medium (moving objects at a distance, levitation, etc., which was the type of mediumship had no equal).[50] Home was suspicious of any medium who claimed powers he himself did not possess, particularly the materializing mediums (such as the Eddy Brothers), who claimed the ability to produce solid spirit forms, and he marked these as fraudulent.[50] Since materializing mediums always work in darkened places, Home urged that all séances be held in the light.[50] Home, in his 1877 book Lights and Shadows of Spiritualism, detailed the conjuring tricks employed by false mediums.[51]

Lord Adare stated that Home "swung out and in" of a window in a horizontal position.[52] "He [Home] came in [through the window] again, feet foremost, and we returned to the other room. It was so dark I could not see clearly how he was supported" [outside of the three story window]. [53] Podmore recorded that Home had a constant companion that sat opposite of him during his séances.[54] Between 1870 and 1873, Crookes conducted experiments to determine the validity of the phenomena produced by three mediums: Florence Cook, Kate Fox, and Home. Crookes' final report in 1874 concluded that the phenomena produced by all three mediums were genuine, a result which was roundly derided by the scientific establishment.[55] Crookes recorded that he controlled and secured Home by placing his feet on the top of Home's feet.[56

Also: Levitation associated with lifting other than humans:

paranormal.about.com...

Here is an interesting site that teaches ' ascencion ' ( levitation) by means of deep trance practice:

www.deeptrancenow.com...

Here is a SCHOOL that teaches levitation!! This suprised even me:

home.cfl.rr.com...

Fron the school site: "
Feel Lighter
Feel Better
Put the Bounce back into your life


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Classes are starting soon.
Write for our Free Course Catalog
Send e-mail


Classes include:
Levitation 101. Introduction to feeling light.
Levitation 102a. Controlling where your body droops (for men).
Levitation 102b. Controlling where your body droops (for women).
Levitation 201. Becoming lighter.
Levitation 202. Leaving the floor.
Levitation 301. The view from the ceiling.
Levitation 302. History of Levitation.
Levitation 401. Introduction to personal flight.
Levitation 449. Practical seminar on levitation.
Levitation 469. How to take your pickup truck.
Levitation 470. How to take your dog.
Levitation 471. Raising money.
Levitation 472. Where to find a six-pack.
Levitation 473. Flying when you're really flying.
Levitation 499. Visiting other planets (with an instructor).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


All of our instructors have been Certified by the
International Institute of Levitation and Personal Flight.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't be without Gravity Insurance!



Ok now all you DENIERS out there, time to do some homework and place your personal and very limited assumptions about reality on a shelf and pay attention to what is in these links. Then come back and discuss this with more authority than " Dude!! He's an illusionist!!" OK?

Originally posted by eyewitness86

I NEVER said that Copperfield has never been able to perform the same illusions as Criss. Go back and READ my words. I said, and you know this but ignored it in the interest on dishonest quoting, that Copperfield cannot do the same EVENTS as Criss MEANING the HIGH LEVITATIONS !! We are TALKING ABOUT HIGH LEVITATIONS!! NOT any other gimmick, trick, stunt, illusion, etc. ONLY high levitations...OK Got that? Clear enough this time? Thank you.

Ha! touched a nerve there eh? See the problem you have with all of this is that you consider CA's video performances as the gospel truth till someone shows you otherwise then you fall back on the "high Levitations" as being real since no one see's any trickery in CA's quick cut, edited videos by him and his production team. We have shown you multiple instances of CA's videos being majorly edited, yet you refuse to believe that he has applied these same techniques to the "high Levitation" video.

Copperfield CANNOT go into the public and into the streets, or on top of building, and do what Criss does ...NO ONE CAN. Or they would!! Copperfield cannot and has not ever attempted an open air levitation;

I would venture to guess that David Copperfield could perform a very similar illusion if he chose to do what CA has. That is stage it in a place with very few onlookers, might as well be a closed set for all intents, pay people to be an "audience", film multiple takes of said levitations and then edit the videos so as not to show any tell tale evidence of how he did it.

Most magicians do not have the resorces of a CA or DC, that is why they cannot perfrom the trick. It's a money issue, not a skill issue. I had more to say but each time I preview it gets erased.

reply to post by eyewitness86



That's the best you can do?

Someone who said:

It was so dark I could not see clearly how he was supported"

and another who said:

Podmore recorded that Home had a constant companion that sat opposite of him during his séances.

No warning flag there eh?

Here is an opposing view of Home

www.randi.org...

I especially like the one where the spirit of the dead husband tried to convince his widow to adopt Home as her son and give him large sums of money.

Yeah, he's the real deal. LOL

Originally posted by pavil
I would venture to guess that David Copperfield could perform a very similar illusion if he chose to do what CA has. That is stage it in a place with very few onlookers, might as well be a closed set for all intents, pay people to be an "audience", film multiple takes of said levitations and then edit the videos so as not to show any tell tale evidence of how he did it.

Not just David. Any ilusionist could create a video like that of himself levitating and some people "being amazed". And anyone could say "There were no camera tricks used. What you see is what you get....."


But i think most of them are too proud of themselves, to do that.
They wouldn't want to loose all the respect from their fellow ilusionists by lying and making ilusions appear better than they really are with video editing and paid "witnesses".

I'm pretty sure many of them look down on him for "cheating".


So i guess, Criss' biggest "power" is not caring what other ilusionists think about him, but just the money instead..

[edit on 23/1/08 by deezee]

reply to post by deezee



Now THERE is a typical denier excuse: Criss must be low on pride because he resorts to doing what all the other performers won't, is that right? Youn really believe that? Unreal..just unreal. Criss was the first and ONLY illusionist to use faked films and paid actors as witnesses and props so he can make all the money and have all the fame and a TV show.....and all the other guys are not willing to do it because they have more class...is that your belief? Thats a howl, friend.

The other people in Criss profession simply would rather stay far below Criss in money and fame due to not wanting to promote faked videos..is that right? Have you HEARD of any of them complaining that Criss is faking his videos and such? No? Thought not. Silent as well as moral, huh? Typical attributes for a vegas performer, right? jeeeeesh.

So no one wants money and fame..so they ignore the method Criss uses because he is one of a kind and a bad guy fopr doing that and all the others know all about it and stay quiet and never complain..but they will not do the same thing because it is wrong!! Thats a hell of an excuse, I give you credit for that. Pavil pay attention, here is real imagination.

The real reason is not because Criss can levitate and the others cannot...no, that would be too simple..too Occams Razorish..right? So better make it really complex and rely on multiple assumptions, all totally unfounded, unlikley and unproven. Congratulations for actually presenting the WORST denier excuse ever!! This beats Pavils excuse for Cyril Takayama's underwater window card event; Pavil suggested that maybe a skin diver was secretly swimming along with the glass bottomed boat to somehow quickly do the dirty work when we weren't looking!!

This takes the cake: Vegas performers unwilling to use any method at their disposal to promote their own career....supposedly because they are too moral to use such dastardly tricks..but for some reason they never talk about it or complain about it!! Imagine that!!

reply to post by eyewitness86


That wasn't even a post to you. And again you didn't understand it at all.


You're still ignoring ALL of my questions and then call me a denier..
The only time you "answer" you just repeat the same things over and over again. If it's a logical question you ignore it completely. And you always try to be condescending, every chance you think you get.

Why are you afraid of answering my questions? And why can't you refrain from always trying to insult?

You don't want to discuss anything, you just want to spread your beliefs on us. Otherwise you would be answering questions instead of avoiding them and answering them directly instead of using distractions.


There must be at least four of my posts with questions for you by now, that you have completely ignored.

That is very unusual for someone, who knows everything....

Again I ask you Eyewitness, please explain the obvious editing by CA and his production team on the video I posted up.

You seem to think there is nothing wrong with it but it's glaring you right in the face, is it not? Something is amiss with that video, with the shadows, with people there in one shot and not in the next, the 2 totally different landings! Come on now you can't be that hard headed to not even admit that the landings are totally different, right?

It's not the end of the world that CA is JUST an illusionist. He never said to be anything else.

Why is the film I posted edited?

Originally posted by eyewitness86


Congratulations for actually presenting the WORST denier excuse ever!! This beats Pavils excuse for Cyril Takayama's underwater window card event; Pavil suggested that maybe a skin diver was secretly swimming along with the glass bottomed boat to somehow quickly do the dirty work when we weren't looking!!

Pray tell, what exactly occured there then? Explain to me using straightforward logic how exactly Cyril transmutated the Glass so he could pass the card through it with hardly any water coming in even thought the pressure on that glass had to be great.

I won't hold my breath waiting for your answer.

Just another mystic stumbling around as a magician eh? But all other magicans are shams. And you call us the illogical ones?!?!

Originally posted by eyewitness86

Here is a SCHOOL that teaches levitation!! This suprised even me:

home.cfl.rr.com...

Fron the school site: "
Feel Lighter
Feel Better
Put the Bounce back into your life

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Classes include:
Levitation 101. Introduction to feeling light.
Levitation 102a. Controlling where your body droops (for men).
Levitation 102b. Controlling where your body droops (for women).
Levitation 201. Becoming lighter.
Levitation 202. Leaving the floor.
Levitation 301. The view from the ceiling.
Levitation 302. History of Levitation.
Levitation 401. Introduction to personal flight.
Levitation 449. Practical seminar on levitation.
Levitation 469. How to take your pickup truck.
Levitation 470. How to take your dog.
Levitation 471. Raising money.
Levitation 472. Where to find a six-pack.
Levitation 473. Flying when you're really flying.
Levitation 499. Visiting other planets (with an instructor).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All of our instructors have been Certified by the
International Institute of Levitation and Personal Flight.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't be without Gravity Insurance!

You do know that the site is a really obvious spoof dont' you? "Where to find a six-pack."?

Did you check out their gravity insurance:

What would happen to you? Would you fly off the face of the Earth? Develop an unsightly rash? Meet Elvis face to face? Who knows?

and they will even insure you against falling into a black hole:

Double Indemnity: North American Gravity Insurance Co. will pay you twice the face amount of this policy (at the rate of $2.00 per year) if you should die due to falling or being pushed into a Black Hole (Proof of loss will be required).

I'm afraid if you think that is a real school of levitation then it reflects poorly on your judgement with relation to Angel.

As to the rest of you: you are all arguing with someone who thinks that the popular entertainer and illusionist, Chris Angel, is a sorcerer. You really need to step away from the keyboard.

YES, I knew it was a spoof...thats why I did not refer to it seriously..I am NOT as thick as a den...I mean, as a brick.

A little levity might help shake off the depression the deniers feel when they realize that they still have no evidence that Criss uses props in the high levitations...nice of me, wasn't it? Always thinking of you guys!!

reply to post by eyewitness86


UTTER TWADDLE , stop back peddling - you posted that spoof with the same seriousness as all your other arguments

you wrote :

Ok now all you DENIERS out there, time to do some homework and place your personal and very limited assumptions about reality on a shelf and pay attention to what is in these links. Then come back and discuss this with more authority than " Dude!! He's an illusionist!!" OK?

( emphesis added )

your " critical reasoning " as PR would put it has failed - once again

Originally posted by eyewitness86
YES, I knew it was a spoof...

You did refer to it seriously.

A little levity might help shake off the depression the deniers feel when they realize that they still have no evidence that Criss uses props in the high levitations

Depression? I, along with most other people, would think it fantastic if someone could actually fly. However I would be most disappointed if Angel didn't submit himself to scientific study immediately. Most of what we know about science would go out the window, but entire new areas of research and development would open up. We would live in exciting times.

...nice of me, wasn't it? Always thinking of you guys!!

When you say "you guys" do you mean the rest of the world apart from that other guy who thinks that the popular entertainer Mr Angel is a sorcerer?

Do you think sorcerers in the "old days" needed 11 full time editors? Do you think that when King Arthur asked Merlin to bring forth the Dragon's Breath that he said "Fine, just give me a few weeks to get all the kit set up first and post production might take a while to sort out. I can get a tape over to you in a month."

Gah, after berating you guys for arguing with someone who believes in flying sorcerers I've been drawn in! Damn the internet and it's pernicious ways.

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
You did refer to it seriously.

He was completelly serious, he even said this:

Originally posted by Eyewitness86
Here is a SCHOOL that teaches levitation!! This suprised even me:

It just shows how gullible new-agers really are. You can sell them anything, as long as it contains mystic vibrations.
I bet that email from "Levitation school" is getting many applications...

Now we have Eyewitness lying to himself, saying it was a joke.. He probably even believes himself.. Wouldn't surprise me.


And then he blames all the others of not doing their homework...

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
Depression? I, along with most other people, would think it fantastic if someone could actually fly. We would live in exciting times.

I've been trying to tell him that at least 10 times by now, but he ignores it.
He would prefer believing we don't want that to be possible, so he can think he is special. Well, he is.. In a way...

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
As to the rest of you: you are all arguing with someone who thinks that the popular entertainer and illusionist, Chris Angel, is a sorcerer. You really need to step away from the keyboard.

After being indirectly related to a mentally ill person, i became very interested in how such beliefs work. When that person had outbreaks, i tried using logic and common sense to help, but it didn't do any good.

When people cling to beliefs as hard as that, they usually need them for comforting reasons, so there is no way they would ever give them up.

Our Eyewitness here of course isn't really mentaly ill. He's just a new ager. The clinging is very similiar tho.

One difference is, that delusional people are completelly convinced of their beliefs. New agers just want to believe. That's why they are so defensive and hurt, when their beliefs are challenged. A delusional person often doesn't even care if others don't agree.

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
Gah, after berating you guys for arguing with someone who believes in flying sorcerers I've been drawn in! Damn the internet and it's pernicious ways.

Many have been drawn in only to give up later, after seeing he completely ignores logic and prefers to use insults when pushed in a corner.

You should see examples coming up any moment now..

Shouldn't take too long.

Wait for it..

Any moment now....

unreal..you know me inside and out and all I think and write...unreal. What SUPRISED me was the fact that there was enough interest in the subject to ghet lampooned to that degree...does anyone really think that the material is serious? Give me a break..what is apparent is that you always attack the messenger but NEVER the evidence. How telling.

More concerned with my intentions than the substance of the thread..typical tactic to delay and deny. Always misquoting me..typical. I never said anyone can ' fly ' or is a ' sorcerer '. Those are words used by people who assume that sorcery in needed for levitation ( so you believe in sorcery? ) and all the rest of the nonsense.

Criss can levitate. The best excuse I heard lately as to why he is the only one doing it is because' all the other performers are too honest' !! Get that? All the other illusionists are content to make less money and have less fame, and all because they too will not make ' altered ' video's. They have too much class and too high a set or morals, don't you know?

Yeah, those Vegas performers are well known for being shy and reticent about advancing their careers..yeah, right. Thats what the deniers think..amazingly. See what levels they stoop to? To believe that all the other competitors of Criss the the profession do not do the events he does is because they are all too honest ( while NEVER complianing about it! ) shows the depths of the deniers despair in trying to find a way out.

But they will not discuss this, or any of the other main issues; always some comment about something OTHER than evidence..proof. LOGIC dictates that Criss could NOT be the only person who would use any given method to make money. Thats human nature Thats show business. Thats survival. If anyone could simply make faked videos and make a ton of money that way..WHY IN THE HELL AREN"T THEY DOING IT???

Answer that, deniers. Do you really expect anyone with a shred of intelligence to believe that not ONE other person would take advantage of the phenomenon and also make money and get fame also? Why not out do Criss if it is all staged? If it is all props that canot be seen, then why only him? If anyone with some money behind them could make a fortune making altered videos and fooling people, why have NONE done it?

Oh, they haven't done it because they are all Boy Scouts and think Criss is a bad guy..right? Thats the excuse given above, and it stinks. the TRUTH is that NO ONE can replicate Criss events, no matter what they do because there ARE NO PROPS in the high levitations. If any other performer could trick film and get rich, they damned well would, and you know it. It is NOT trick film that makes Criss unique and rich: it is the FACT that he does basically the same type events in front of so many people, live, up close, that people are amazed. Thats what makes them buy tickets to his Vegas shows..thats what makes people buy his DVD's.

You think that people are buying DVD's of Criss events because they like seeing altered and fake film? No way!! Sure, Criss ALSO does illusions and ' magic ' and the normal fare he learned from a young age. But..BUT, and this is where the deniers need to pay attention: BUT, he can ALSO perform levitations for brief periods. It is NOT ' flying ', it is NOT wires hanging from invisible sky hooks or cloaked and silent helicopters, and it is NOT tricked film and paid witnesses. It is simply the ability to levitate..rare buit not unheard of. The proof is staring you in the face and all you can do is flip and twist and deny and argue and imagine and suppose...ANYTHING but OPEN YOUR MINDS.

I KNOW that is asking too much in advance, but at least I am being honest: ONLY a closed mind can continue to insist that they have some concrete reason to believe that Criss uses props in the high levitations. All you have is supposition and a very limited and pinched paradigm of experience in the subject and related matters. Here is the basic reason you believe that Criss uses props:

Because you cannot IMAGINE that a human being can levitate!! Thats it! There is no other answer. You CAN imagine wires and props and pay offs and altered film and loyal witnesses and all the other crap you have NO proof of...but you CANNOT imagine the obvious and true answer. That says a LOT about you, but nothing about me, or Criss.

Sorry to be so blunt, but that is the gospel truth: you have the wrong kind of imagination.

Originally posted by deezee
Many have been drawn in only to give up later, after seeing he completely ignores logic and prefers to use insults when pushed in a corner.

You should see examples coming up any moment now..

Shouldn't take too long.

Wait for it..

Any moment now....

Man, he still did it, even after that lead in. Simply Amazing. Its funny that Eyewitness considers doctored/edited videos to be proof of human levitation. I still notice he prefers not to answer questions directed to him.

I think Ian McKellen has the "gift" too. Didn't you see him in the X-men movies? He floats just like CA. I saw the video, it must be true, prove it otherwise. All you Ian deniers can't believe that he can.


BTW, eyewitness, how did Cyril do that trick?

I've watched his shows on televised programmings and those illusions look real to me from the card tricks to manifesting objects from within his body, etc. But once again, until I actually witness first hand how the heck he levitates and all that, I won't believe anything coming out of a boob tube.

reply to post by eyewitness86



Eyewitness, (funny you name is "eyewitness" and you argue for CA being able to levitate but have you ever been an "eyewitness"???)

OK, once again, for the third time now, I'm asking you is that video Iposted up edited or not?

If it is edited then why is it edited? Can you explain why the landings he performed are different?

Can you explain why the shadows are there in one shot but not in another, the person in one shot but absent from the next?

Again, please explain why we should not trust that video I posted?

Originally posted by pavil
Man, he still did it, even after that lead in. Simply Amazing.

Yeah, i thought (i was hoping) he wouldn't do it, simply to proove me wrong..
But i guess i was wrong, so in a way, he did proove me wrong..

Originally posted by pavil
Its funny that Eyewitness considers doctored/edited videos to be proof of human levitation. I still notice he prefers not to answer questions directed to him.

What is even more amazing is, that he thinks no one else is capable of producing a video of himself flying over a golf course or something, with some people cheering..

I mean, i could do it myself.. I would need to pay for a crane, the friends would cheer for free, the video editing can be done on my computer.

And yet the fact that no one else is doing it somehow prooves something to Eyewitness..

It just couldn't be, that other ilusionists prefer to do real ilusions without camera tricks, no.. Also it couldn't be, that people don't like to imitate..
It also couldn't be, that no one would pay too much for seeing an imitation. Especially one done with camera tricks...

So i guess Criss really must be flying.

Originally posted by pavil
I think Ian McKellen has the "gift" too. Didn't you see him in the X-men movies? He floats just like CA. I saw the video, it must be true, prove it otherwise. All you Ian deniers can't believe that he can.

What about Keanu Reeves in Matrix? He could do much more than just fly. He must be the new messiah!

Originally posted by pavil
BTW, eyewitness, how did Cyril do that trick?

You really expect him to answer?
He doesn't even want to answer to the fact that the sawing video must have been edited to cover up the hiding of the body, because he would then have to admit that Criss IS lying..
He also ignores the fact that the building to building levitation was heavily edited and put together from at least two preformances, most likely with the same tiny audience..

He doesn't want to answer anything anymore, unless if he imagines he has a chance to insult someone.

And then he blaims us of attacking the messenger.

His projection abilities are just amazing!


Eyewitness: Could this projection perhaps be modified to astral projection? Then you could levitate, walk through walls and fly around, pinching us for revenge..

Just a thought...



Oh and just a friendly reminder.. You STILL haven't answered even a single one of my questions. All you do is try to insult people and be condescending every chance you imagine you get..

So much for discussing the message instead of attacking the messenger...

Or in your own words: "Unreal.. Just unreal...."

[edit on 25/1/08 by deezee]

Error

Deleted...

[edit on 25/1/08 by deezee]