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criss angel discussion...

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posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 07:43 AM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard
What is your definition of independent?

I would consider anything without the A&E symbol or the MindFreak symbol to be indepedant of those production groups.

Something that is posted on a personal webpage I would consider if it was valid independant footage.

Its kind of funny that of all the fan pages of CA, and all the claimed independant witnesses, not one of those people putup their own footage of his stunts.

This is the age of technology. Everyone has a cell phone with a camrea, where is the footage from those camereas?
Many people taking vacations (say in Vegas) take camera's wherever they go, where is that footage?




The skyline is clearly visible in the video of CA levitating above a golf course. So visible in fact, that one can see a UFO in the distance. However, there is no wires or crane in sight.

(Anyone can go to my reference page link in my signature to view that and other related videos.)

Care to produce some images for us?



[edit on 10-1-2008 by Paul_Richard]


The "UFO" is odd, but for now its a video anomaly, not necessary aliens flying in the background.

Further, your right, you can see the skyline, I used the wrong wording there. You can see the skyline, but you cant see the space 300 feet above CA. The only time you see the space above him is when he is floating high up, and even that is within the 90-100 foot range.


Xeros showed up something we missed, thank you very much for even more evidence for our side.

To the believers (all 2 of them) You guys tout CA's ability as if its fact, while relying completely on MindFreak production video's. So please, do some of your own research and find us OTHER sources of CA's abilities.




posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 08:07 AM
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Originally posted by InSpiteOf
To the believers (all 2 of them) You guys tout CA's ability as if its fact, while relying completely on MindFreak production video's. So please, do some of your own research and find us OTHER sources of CA's abilities.


That's the most funny part about it! They say it's all 100% factual and truthful because of Mindfreak Production video's edited for television purposes. I'm not alone in thinking that's ludicrous to even think that!

Give us different pieces of evidence, not his own production teams videos. Thanks in advance, as I'd love to see them.



posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 08:44 AM
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So there was a crane taller than 100 feet on the goldf course, right? Unreal..just unreal. Invisible cranes and paid witnesses again....do the Zero People never have any shame?



posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 09:14 AM
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reply to post by eyewitness86
 


What is so hard to believe about a crane being on a golf course? Golf courses have roads in certain sections.

The crane isnt invisible, its just off camera.

What is your explanation of the odd and huge shadow on the ground in the picture Xeros posted? Why is CA's jacket so oddly shaped?"


Edit to add: It would seem that you guys have no shame, now that you hav resorted to calling us "Zero people".

You cant refute the evidence we post, so you resort to personal attacks.

[edit on 11-1-2008 by InSpiteOf]



posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 09:30 AM
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reply to post by Xeros
 

That is certainly an entertaining theory. However, it still doesn't answer the basic questions.

To reiterate:

If the high levitations in the open air can be faked as you say they can, then why don't illusionists much richer and more experienced than Criss Angel do it also?

And why haven't richer and more experienced illusionists done so back in the 1970s and 1980s, before Criss Angel ever entered the public spotlight?


If anyone else would care to chime in with answers to these key questions, feel free to do so.



posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 09:47 AM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Now go find us a site which explains in detail how he does his high aerial acts of 500 feet off the ground and flying around a golf course.

Yeah...good luck with that.


Originally posted by SleightlyDicey
and i suppose that, because David Copperfield can make the statue of liberty disappear, he as well is one of these gifted beings. Hell, i bet i could convince you I was someone with gifts from some "fourth plane" beings if i tried.

David Copperfield has no Gift of Chi-Telekinesis and neither do you.


You would be amazed at what you could learn if you bothered reading the entire thread before showing us how ignorant you are on the subject.

David Copperfield's seeming disappearance of the Statue of Liberty is a well-known illusion. He is just a magician. That is why you don't see Copperfield producing his own Street Magic video. He cannot levitate outside of his specially designed and expensive stage equipment.

Making the Statue of Liberty "vanish" was done simply through misdirection, as the audience was on a rotating stage.


Struggling to believe that?

Do a Net search.



Originally posted by Paul_Richard
This question saved you from being added to my ignore list.


Originally posted by SleightlyDicey
Your arrogance makes you the first on mine.


*eyewitness is soon to follow*

We are trembling in our boots with anticipation



Originally posted by Paul_Richard
The "mastery" of his Chi is really indicative of a sociological achievement - being elected to a position - not one of spiritual attainment.


Originally posted by SleightlyDicey
So, i suppose this occurred with all the traditional Shaolin Warrior Monks that had developed and trained their chi. You have taken that word and totally twisted it's origins. You are not granted chi. You strengthen and cultivate it. Do some research that doesn't involve members.aol.com. ahaha.

I see that you wish to insult Americans in general too


When you feel you have developed your Chi enough, feel free to submit a video demonstration to ATS.

Yeah...good luck with that too.




[edit on 11-1-2008 by Paul_Richard]



posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 09:53 AM
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Originally posted by InSpiteOf

This is the age of technology. Everyone has a cell phone with a camrea, where is the footage from those camereas?
Many people taking vacations (say in Vegas) take camera's wherever they go, where is that footage?

Actually, many still photographs of Criss Angel hovering over the Luxor Hotel were taken independently, and then added to the MindFreak episode.

If they were all paid-off and the pics were faked, then how come no other illusionist is doing it and making the money CA is?



posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 10:18 AM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Actually, many still photographs of Criss Angel hovering over the Luxor Hotel were taken independently, and then added to the MindFreak episode.


Then they went through post production editing and are no longer independant footage.

The minute the shots change hands, they are tainted and must be viewed with skeptisim.




If they were all paid-off and the pics were faked, then how come no other illusionist is doing it and making the money CA is?


You guys constantly use this line as if it instantly refutes the anomolies we have posted.

When you cant counter the evidence we provide, you just drop this line thinking it changes what is in front of you.

CA does his high levitations for TV only, if you have evidence that states otherwise, please present it.

The fact that he only does it for TV should be a big, huge, red flag.

Edit to add: I know why you hold on to this belief in CA, because you state you can see the yellow aura around him and therefore he must have help from some disincarnate community. Its fine that you believe in such things, but you continued flat-out refusal to look at what is in front of you objectively just makes you look like a fool.

Just admit you made a mistake and move on.

[edit on 11-1-2008 by InSpiteOf]



posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 11:44 AM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard
If they were all paid-off and the pics were faked, then how come no other illusionist is doing it and making the money CA is?


Originally posted by InSpiteOf
You guys constantly use this line as if it instantly refutes the anomolies we have posted.

An argument that neither you or any other denier/Zero Person has been able to counter effectively.


In fact, it is so good that I am thinking of adding it to my signature line.



Originally posted by InSpiteOf
Edit to add: I know why you hold on to this belief in CA, because you state you can see the yellow aura around him and therefore he must have help from some disincarnate community. Its fine that you believe in such things, but you continued flat-out refusal to look at what is in front of you objectively just makes you look like a fool.

Coming from a guy who THINKS he had an out of body experience.


You know what they say about those who live in glass houses not throwing stones.

The yellow-energy connection around CA is not the only reason, as there are others who have a Gift of Healing who also have that situation. A number of factors are involved. He fits the bill for the classic case of a telekinetic gift, e.g., acquiring it at an early age, doing it in the open air, going beyond what magicians can do offstage, the hundreds if not thousands of eyewitnesses that no other magician has been able to pay to get, the fact that he is doing better financially than any magician in history, etc. Things like that.


Moreover, I also have the one-hundred odd discarnate Saints - The Society Of Light - to draw upon for higher awareness, which they judge to explain on a case by case basis. (No free readings in here.) Their batting average is much better than that of the Zero People.

For example, in addition to them successfully predicting the last two US presidential winners (among other things), they have also freaked people out on a number of occasions from providing past-life awareness that was then verified on a personal level. They know what they are talking about and they are the highest spiritual source available at the present time - bar none.

So if they say that Criss Angel channels a large discarnate community or Group Entity of yellow-energy angels on the Fourth Plane, then I am likely to accept their eyewitness testimony. Kind of like having good spies in high places. Actually, IT IS having good spies in high places.


Perhaps some are simply jealous of Criss Angel's success and can't handle the idea that he has a Gift too. But when one realizes that that success is artificial and not permanent, it makes it easier to accept.

Like all channelers of large discarnate communities, Criss Angel's glory will end with bodily death. No Group Entity has the power and skill to create a humanoid body. Which is why none of the prophets and magicians of old have ever come back.



Originally posted by InSpiteOf
Just admit you made a mistake and move on.

It isn't a mistake to espouse that Criss Angel is not only an illusionist but that he also has a Gift of Chi-Telekinesis


In fact...it is a service to The Light to do so.


Which is precisely why I and others like EW86 will keep doing it.





posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 11:58 AM
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Originally posted by InSpiteOf

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Actually, many still photographs of Criss Angel hovering over the Luxor Hotel were taken independently, and then added to the MindFreak episode.


Then they went through post production editing and are no longer independant footage.

The minute the shots change hands, they are tainted and must be viewed with skeptisim.





(From EW86): If any of the people who had sent pictures and video in to Criss had seen them misrepresented, they would have howled to the moon until someone noticed. ANY of Criss competitors ( I know you do not believe there are any, and that no one desires to be rich and successful as long as Criss is around ) would be advertising the complaints so that Criss would be outed and vilified, thus opening up a slot for some new turk to step into. NO complaints at all, ever, about Criss changing the pictures to fool people. Since there is ZERO evidence of Criss misusing any evidence sent to him, then it would be ILLOGICAL to do what you say: Viewing it with skepticism....why discount evidence when there is ZERO evidence that it is not accurate? Again, you are IMAGINING and SUPPOSING as opposed to providing some proof grounded in substance and reality. Nothing new there, sad to say.(end EW86)



If they were all paid-off and the pics were faked, then how come no other illusionist is doing it and making the money CA is?


You guys constantly use this line as if it instantly refutes the anomolies we have posted.

(From EW86): And STILL you refuse to address it!! Please just once for God's sake, give us a LIKELY and PLAUSABLE and INTELLIGENT reason that no one, not one other human being on the face of this earth, has either done what Criss has done or better, thus making THEM the top dog in the ' illusion/magic ' industry.Why hasn't some debunker simply duplicated the events USING props, and showing us all on video just how Criss manages to make the props UNSEEN? THAT would prove your case and shut us up forever. But when all your proof is imaginary and relies on others to accept things not seen or attested to in ANY way, you cannot expect people to believe your side at all.

Please tell us WHY no one in Las Vegas, or anywhere, has the ambition needed to top Cris? Are ALL other ' illusionists ' too lazy, stupid or complacent to want to advance their careers? Is that logical? Most people in show business are rather sharky about getting ahead, and will normally use anything they can to get ahead and top the other guy.

But you seem to think that all Vegas ' illusionsts/'magicians " are somehow like a big club that elects a leader and he makes the most money and gets all the glory and the others just leave him alone and never try to outdo him. WHY do you believe that? Is that logical? See why your theory falls apart so easily? it is comprised of broken parts to begin with!! ( End EW86)

CA does his high levitations for TV only, if you have evidence that states otherwise, please present it.

The fact that he only does it for TV should be a big, huge, red flag.

( From EW86): What? Criss should perform events and NOT record them for later use, possible on TV shows? And pray tell us WHY he would omit filming his events? It makes no sense, what you say. The fact that a levitation is captured on film is in NO WAY an indicator of any intent whatsoever; if you can tell us where the intent lies in that please do so. If Criss did the event for a paid audience and did not film it, then would that lower your red flag? If so, WHY? How can you correlate them? Unreal. Have you not seen the high levitation in the atrium of the Luxor? Tell us please where the crane is there!! Or the wires..or anything..

Let me guess, the Atrium levitation was done by paying off all ther guests in the hotel and all others there, right? So sad..it really makes me pity people who will reach this far to deny reality. (end EW86)

Edit to add:" ..., but you continued flat-out refusal to look at what is in front of you objectively just makes you look like a fool."

Just admit you made a mistake and move on.

[edit on 11-1-2008 by InSpiteOf]


From EW86: And WHAT exactly did PR refuse to look at that is right in front of us? What convincing evidence, what concrete proofs, what witness testimony, is it that we are not seeing? Please tell us succinctly and briefly, in one sentence if possible, the elements that make up your case. I hope that they are not the same old billion to one odds sillinesses that you have used as your case in chief so far, because thats really getting boring now. Lets move beyond the things that have ZERO chance of being likley, and stay with the evidence and proof plain and right in front of us: The video and eyewitness testimony have NEVER EVER been refuted, proven hoaxed, or paid off.

You must realize that when you present us with nonsense like the ' angle of the dangle ' or ' caluculating the sway ' you are in fact admitting that your well is empty and the mud you are brining up in the bucket will not pass for clear water except to the blind...and they will figure it out fast when they taste it, thats for sure!! I am tempted to say that you Zero People are like Mozart: Recall in the movie' Amadeus ' when Mozart was asking the King for money and a chance to write an opera for him, the King looked at him and said " You amuse, but you do not convince '. Well, for a while some of the outlandish excuses that the Zero People use over and over were amusing, to a degree. Now they are simply irritating and bordering on disgusting.

People with a modicum of intelligence should be able to recognize a LACK of substance when compared to actual and verified proof. Only an irrational psychological viewpoint and attitude can explain the continued refusal to see that they have NOTHING of substance whatsoever, and must rely, as always, on supposition and imagination to fill in the blanks where they lack evidence. And still, naturally, no reply as to WHY Criss alone does what he does. They will not touch that with a 100 foot pole because the only answers they can give are so unlikley, so farfetched that it embarrasses even them, and that is saying something.

The average Zero Person has little or no shame about bold faced insistence on saying that there is something there when there is absolutely no proof of it. They insist that it exists and claim that their inability to see it, photograph it, or get even ONE witness to attest to it means NOTHING!! Thats the part that aggravates: the insult of someone saying that a total and absolute LACK of evidence means NOTHING to them. TGhey ignore it and plunge right into ther fray...unreal.. Simply staggering to the sound mind. Oh well. Maybe someday one of them will actually give us something to examine and take seriously, some real evidence..until then, on we go.



posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 12:10 PM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard
An argument that neither you or any other denier/Zero Person has been able to counter effectively.



There in lies a huge problem with this thread, there is no objectivity. Pretty much everyone of us on the deniers side have given an answer to this line of questioning, some of the answers mirror other posts, other answers add new possibilities to the mix. But none of them are up to par with your expectations. Frankly, I dont think you would accept any answer we give you. Unless it was inline with your frame of mind.

Theres still the fact that outside of attacking the posters, neither of you have been able to refute any of the evidence presented here. You just brush it off without giving any real reason why it should not be considered a legitimate point.



Coming from a guy who THINKS he had an out of body experience.


You of all people know my story, I dont for a second believe it was anything but an OOBE. That doesnt mean my interpretation of what I saw and experianced couldnt be wrong, and its the same situation with you.

I think your beliefs are pretty out there for most people (some of it i follow, other parts I dont have a clue). But just because you believe them doesnt necessary make it so.

To me it seems, you have more vested in your belief in CA than EW86, mainly because of the claims you have made as to the source of his abilities, and frankly, i think its clouded your judgement.

I think its fine that you believe in something, hell i wish i had a concrete belief, but i think there comes a time when you have to take a step back, and look at your belief from a critical standpoint.

It is more likely that CA is just another illusionist, rather than someone who holds the attention of a disincarnate group entity.



For example, in addition to them successfully predicting the last two US presidential winners (among other things), they have also freaked people out on a number of occasions from providing past-life awareness that was then verified on a personal level. They know what they are talking about and they are the highest spiritual source available at the present time - bar none.


Really? got a prediction as to who wins this time and by what margins?



posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 01:05 PM
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Originally posted by InSpiteOf
...everyone of us on the deniers side have given an answer to this line of questioning, some of the answers mirror other posts, other answers add new possibilities to the mix.

Care to take another crack at it?

Like naming someone who is doing what Criss Angel has done in his high levitations?

You all fail to name anyone. Which is why that old key question keeps popping up again and again


If what all Criss Angel does is paying off witnesses and editing his videos, then how come no one else is doing it?

BECAUSE THEY CAN'T.

TA DA


(Something all you Zero People fail to accept.)

Thank you, thank you...


Originally posted by InSpiteOf
Coming from a guy who THINKS he had an out of body experience.


Originally posted by InSpiteOf
You of all people know my story, I dont for a second believe it was anything but an OOBE. That doesnt mean my interpretation of what I saw and experianced couldnt be wrong, and its the same situation with you.

You don't believe it was anything BUT an OOBE.

Do you realize what you are stating?

How do we know that your judgment wasn't impaired back then or now?

If we are to accept you as an unbiased witness then YOU have to accept others as unbiased witnesses.

Which puts you between a rock and a hard place.

So for you, better to dismiss everyone's testimony...including your own.

Which is a poor approach of getting to the truth.


Originally posted by InSpiteOf
I think your beliefs are pretty out there for most people (some of it i follow, other parts I dont have a clue). But just because you believe them doesnt necessary make it so.

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.



Originally posted by InSpiteOf
To me it seems, you have more vested in your belief in CA than EW86, mainly because of the claims you have made as to the source of his abilities, and frankly, i think its clouded your judgement.

And you have a better source?

What would that be prey tell?

You don't even trust YOUR OWN perceptions and judgment...why should we?


Originally posted by InSpiteOf
I think its fine that you believe in something, hell i wish i had a concrete belief, but i think there comes a time when you have to take a step back, and look at your belief from a critical standpoint.

I did, many times. It always leads me back to the truth. But I can't say that for everyone, as that is simply not the case.


Originally posted by InSpiteOf
It is more likely that CA is just another illusionist, rather than someone who holds the attention of a disincarnate group entity.

Then how come no one else can do his high levitations?

And why hasn't anyone even attempted it in recent times?

And why hasn't anyone attempted it before Criss Angel became Criss Angel?


Originally posted by Paul_Richard
For example, in addition to them successfully predicting the last two US presidential winners (among other things), they have also freaked people out on a number of occasions from providing past-life awareness that was then verified on a personal level. They know what they are talking about and they are the highest spiritual source available at the present time - bar none.


Originally posted by InSpiteOf
Really? got a prediction as to who wins this time and by what margins?

Yes to the first, no to the second. I could care less about margins.

One does not have to look very far to find that. It was in a recent post I made regarding a political topic. TSOL informed me as to who will most likely win the presidential election this year - and they made that prediction back in 2006.

Here's a hint...

The "Warlock of Mexico" recently went public with the same prediction.




posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 01:22 PM
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Originally posted by eyewitness86
(From EW86): If any of the people who had sent pictures and video in to Criss had seen them misrepresented, they would have howled to the moon until someone noticed.


Why didnt they release such footage independant of CA? Put it up on Youtube, google video, Soulseek, Limewire, bit torrent, or whatever other medium.

It could simply mean that they in fact are not independant. Can you find names of such people? How about we all try and get in contact with such people. Considering most of the footage from non crew camera's was taken by CA's audience POV camera, I doubt we will find much footage that remotely resembles independant.



ANY of Criss competitors ( I know you do not believe there are any, and that no one desires to be rich and successful as long as Criss is around )


No, i believe there are competitors, they just dont have the funding that CA does.



would be advertising the complaints so that Criss would be outed and vilified, thus opening up a slot for some new turk to step into.

To be honest, I dont know the inner workings of the magic circle, but from my understanding, its pretty tightknitt. Revealing secrets is against the code.



NO complaints at all, ever, about Criss changing the pictures to fool people. Since there is ZERO evidence of Criss misusing any evidence sent to him, then it would be ILLOGICAL to do what you say: Viewing it with skepticism....


All media should be viewed with skepticism. The fact that we cannot confirm anything we see on CA production footage with independant footage speaks volums to me about a coverup.



If they were all paid-off and the pics were faked, then how come no other illusionist is doing it and making the money CA is?


Funding. How many magicians have that level of funding?



(From EW86): And STILL you refuse to address it!! Please just once for God's sake, give us a LIKELY and PLAUSABLE and INTELLIGENT reason that no one, not one other human being on the face of this earth, has either done what Criss has done or better, thus making THEM the top dog in the ' illusion/magic ' industry.


Asked and answered on a number of posts. Go back in the last few pages and do some reading. You may not like what you see and you may disagree with it, but you have yet to provide any point by point refutation.



Why hasn't some debunker simply duplicated the events USING props, and showing us all on video just how Criss manages to make the props UNSEEN?


Funding. If you want to sponsor A) the engineering costs B) the film and camrea crew costs C) the location costs D) the production costs E) the hundreds of thousands of dollars that I havent allocated into one of the above groups, than please, send a blank cheque right away.



Please tell us WHY no one in Las Vegas, or anywhere, has the ambition needed to top Cris? Are ALL other ' illusionists ' too lazy, stupid or complacent to want to advance their careers? Is that logical? Most people in show business are rather sharky about getting ahead, and will normally use anything they can to get ahead and top the other guy.


Do some research into the magic alliance/circle. its not as cut throat as you think, its a group of tightly knitt magicians who protect their secrets to protect the overall welfare of the group.




But you seem to think that all Vegas ' illusionsts/'magicians " are somehow like a big club that elects a leader and he makes the most money and gets all the glory and the others just leave him alone and never try to outdo him. WHY do you believe that? Is that logical? See why your theory falls apart so easily? it is comprised of broken parts to begin with!! ( End EW86)


So you clearly know nothing about how the magic circle operates. You need to do a lot of reading before I even bother to explain it.



( From EW86): What? Criss should perform events and NOT record them for later use, possible on TV shows? And pray tell us WHY he would omit filming his events? It makes no sense, what you say.


Uhh, I never said he shouldnt, I said he doesnt!

Its the fact that he does not preform high levitations in front of a live paying audience that raises the red flag for me.

if you have evidence to refute this, please present it.



The fact that a levitation is captured on film is in NO WAY an indicator of any intent whatsoever; if you can tell us where the intent lies in that please do so. If Criss did the event for a paid audience and did not film it, then would that lower your red flag?


If he did his high levitation in front of a paying audience it would certainly change my opinion slightly. But he doesnt do it for paying audiences, he only does it for TV



Let me guess, the Atrium levitation was done by paying off all ther guests in the hotel and all others there, right? So sad..it really makes me pity people who will reach this far to deny reality. (end EW86)


Go and count the witnesses in the Atrium levitation, its completely within the scope of possibility that those viewing the scene are either A) paid actors witnessing CA do his thing B) paid actors preforming reactions to something they are not seeing or C) paid actors reacting to something that has nothing to do with his levitation.



From EW86: And WHAT exactly did PR refuse to look at that is right in front of us? What convincing evidence, what concrete proofs, what witness testimony, is it that we are not seeing?


Everything we have presented, you just brush off without offering any critical opinions.

Please tell us succinctly and briefly...

I asked you first, a number of times. And as for you bringing odds back into this, Id love to review you statisitcal data.



posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 01:30 PM
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Originally posted by InSpiteOf
Why didnt they release such footage independant of CA? Put it up on Youtube, google video, Soulseek, Limewire, bit torrent, or whatever other medium.

I have an answer to that question.

It has nothing to do with them being biased or paid-off.


They avoid releasing such pictures and footage independently of Criss Angel's MindFreak show because they wish to avoid the same hostility, the same prejudice, the same ignorance, that is found in this thread from the Zero People


Just like when rape victims and abductees avoid telling anyone, even the police, about their experiences.

They wish to avoid further humiliation and to prevent themselves from being a target of the general public's amusement.

That's why


Some people in here could really use a course in applied critical thinking.


[edit on 11-1-2008 by Paul_Richard]



posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 01:34 PM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard
You all fail to name anyone. Which is why that old key question keeps popping up again and again


There could be any number of factors we (thats both sides of this argument) are not aware of. Assuming you or I to be correct without having direct contact with those in the magicians guild and CA's production team is pointless.



If what all Criss Angel does is paying off witnesses and editing his videos, then how come no one else is doing it?

BECAUSE THEY CAN'T.


Or, other magicians prefer using slieght of hand and other standard magical practises that dont include tv tricks.



(Something all you Zero People fail to accept.)

Thank you, thank you...


Im sure you realize this already, but calling us "Zero People" is very degrading and insulting.




You don't believe it was anything BUT an OOBE.

Do you realize what you are stating?

Ya, that I had an OOBE.



How do we know that your judgment wasn't impaired back then or now?

You dont. Just as we dont know that your judgement isnt impaired at the beginning of this thread or now.



If we are to accept you as an unbiased witness then YOU have to accept others as unbiased witnesses.

Well, Im not offering my experiance for interpretation. The issue here is Criss Angel, not whether I had an OOBE or not. Misdirection much?

Considering the only witness testimony we have is on MindFreak video's, we cant really call it unbaised.


So for you, better to dismiss everyone's testimony...including your own.


This entire thread boils down to belief. I believe CA doesnt fly or levitate, I belive I had an OOBE. You believe CA does levitate or fly, you believe you are in contact with disincarnate entities. neither of the personal points i mentioned here really make an impact on the thread.



You don't even trust YOUR OWN perceptions and judgment...why should we?


How do you figure? I might be confused as to the interpretation of what I saw, but im not confused as to whether it happened or not.



posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 01:40 PM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard
They avoid releasing such pictures and footage independently of Criss Angel's MindFreak show because they wish to avoid the same hostility, the same prejudice, the same ignorance, that is found in this thread from the Zero People


Nice try, but i dont buy it. That footage would go far as to proving one way or another, if CA had abilities.

You really expect us to believe, that the first thing to enter someones mind when about to post such footage is "Oh, wait. People will laugh at me and call me names. I wont bother posting this."

Come one man, people have posted far stupider things on the net than some footage of a magician.

Here's my answer for you:

They dont release any footage because the audiences are carefully picked to include people who wont take pictures and post them elsewhere. Any footage provided by those in the audience are from camera's CA's production team has given them.




Some people in here could really use a course in applied critical thinking.

[edit on 11-1-2008 by Paul_Richard]


Yourself included.



posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 01:43 PM
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reply to post by eyewitness86
 


Obviously you have not been to a golf course during a televised Pro tourney. Actually they are everywhere during those, though you don't believe me because you haven't seen it.



posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 01:45 PM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard
You all fail to name anyone. Which is why that old key question keeps popping up again and again


Originally posted by InSpiteOf
There could be any number of factors we (thats both sides of this argument) are not aware of. Assuming you or I to be correct without having direct contact with those in the magicians guild and CA's production team is pointless.

At this point in the discussion, I would be pleased to even read the testimony of someone who has seen someone other than CA do a high levitation in the open air in recent months


But I hardly think that you or any of the other Zero People have that to offer either.



If what all Criss Angel does is paying off witnesses and editing his videos, then how come no one else is doing it?

BECAUSE THEY CAN'T.


Originally posted by InSpiteOf
Or, other magicians prefer using slieght of hand and other standard magical practises that dont include tv tricks.

Care to show us an example of a high levitation with props - and to show those props?



Originally posted by InSpiteOf
Im sure you realize this already, but calling us "Zero People" is very degrading and insulting.

I didn't come up with that term. But I do note that it is not as insulting as a number of words that were thrown in my direction in this thread.


Originally posted by InSpiteOf
Well, Im not offering my experiance for interpretation. The issue here is Criss Angel, not whether I had an OOBE or not. Misdirection much?

My judgment was challenged. So I countered by questioning your own, which you have admitted to doing. You don't trust your own perceptions, so why should we?

As in determining the true cause behind CA's high levitations and teleportations.



Originally posted by InSpiteOf
This entire thread boils down to belief. I believe CA doesnt fly or levitate, I belive I had an OOBE. You believe CA does levitate or fly, you believe you are in contact with disincarnate entities. neither of the personal points i mentioned here really make an impact on the thread.

Oh my... you aren't giving up now are you?


You don't even trust YOUR OWN perceptions and judgment...why should we?


Originally posted by InSpiteOf
How do you figure? I might be confused as to the interpretation of what I saw, but im not confused as to whether it happened or not.

Whether your OOBE happened or not is also a judgment and/or a perception.



posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard
They avoid releasing such pictures and footage independently of Criss Angel's MindFreak show because they wish to avoid the same hostility, the same prejudice, the same ignorance, that is found in this thread from the Zero People


Originally posted by InSpiteOf
Nice try, but i dont buy it. That footage would go far as to proving one way or another, if CA had abilities.

They understandably are not motivated to care to prove it. What is their motivation? To put up with people like you? Now THAT I DON'T BUY.


Originally posted by InSpiteOf
They dont release any footage because the audiences are carefully picked to include people who wont take pictures and post them elsewhere. Any footage provided by those in the audience are from camera's CA's production team has given them.

Then why hasn't any other illusionist on the entire planet done the same?

Back to that same old unanswerable question.



posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 01:52 PM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Some people in here could really use a course in applied critical thinking.


That quite possibly is the truest and yet funniest thing I have heard on this thread. You left me absolutely speechless on this one.

So someone who has proven to con people in the past, multiple times, and who even shows such manipulations on his show, is some how beyond reproach when it comes to his staged "high levitations" for what exact reason? Because it doesnt show the levitating device on his own show and he carefully stages those high levitations to not have large crowds near him.

Unbelievable, your critical thinking skills need some work in their application, IMO.


Critical thinkers gather information from all senses, verbal and/or written expressions, reflection, observation, experience and reasoning. Critical thinking has its basis in intellectual criteria that go beyond subject-matter divisions and which include: clarity, credibility, accuracy, precision, relevance, depth, breadth, logic, significance and fairness.
en.wikipedia.org...


Too bad neither of you will see this as you ignore me.




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