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criss angel discussion...

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posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 09:26 AM

Originally posted by eyewitness86
I have listed the primary points over and over again, but each time I do all we hear is some silly, ridiculous and totally UNlikley excuses for what is seen.

No, you havent, i have asked repeatedly for your list and you have ignored my request.

SHADOW of a crane? Where? There are no shadows of cranes on the golf course!!

So what do you suppose this giant shadow is? The disincarnate community holding him up?

There are however many witnesses flabbergasted at what they saw...but wait..of course you will say they are all paid off and loyal forever, right?

There are very few witnesses actually present on the golf course (something that should raise suspicion concidering its a public place and criss angel is flying) so yes it is within the relm of possibility that they are paid actors.

In a little while, I am going, ONCE AGAIN, to list the primary reason that deniers have zero evidence and we have plenty.

Why bother retyping it when you can simply link to the list you provided us over and over again before? Ill bet you dollars to doughnuts you wont find it.

Naturally, many deniers will prefer the outlandish and odds defying silliness to take the place of hard cold fact but thats their problem, not mine. Hopefully there are a few souls out there with the abilioty to discern the facts and not the imaginings.

Seeing as pretty much everyone that joins this thread is on our side, I guess your hope is falling short.

posted on Jan, 16 2008 @ 06:48 AM
Happy New Year everyone!
I see not much has changed.

LA Times Interview with Criss - Jan 15th 08

CA - "Season one for me was overwhelming. I was trying to figure out how to make a successful series that incorporates illusions, escapes, performance art with demonstrations of mind and body and spirit ......Then, season two and three, people wanted to know more about me. I still did nutty stuff like float in the Luxor light, which took me many years to figure out"

Q: There is also editing. Have you become as familiar with the mechanics of television as you are with magic?

A: I've been incredibly familiar with directing and editing since I was in my teens, because I didn't have the money to hire people to do that stuff for me. Some of my first music videos I directed and edited and did for $2,500 and favors to get edit rooms on off times. I was always familiar with that. In my first three TV specials I would spend on average 18-20 hours a day editing with the editor doing that. Now, we have gathered six or seven editors who are great and who have been with the show for a while and know how I think. So, I just go to my warehouse here in Las Vegas, and I have a facility where I am able to communicate in California and Las Vegas at the same time, and we do editing. That saves a lot of time, and I am able to oversee it but yet not be there.


posted on Jan, 16 2008 @ 07:13 AM
reply to post by eyewitness86

It's very silly that you say we have ZERO evidence simply because we are not able to show you props being used in footage from an entertainment themed television show starring a self-editing ILLUSIONIST. You can't seriously believe he woud perform these levitations with all the trickery on display? But we have a shadow of a crane and STILL you deny there is a shred of evidence.

You claim NOT seeing props is absolute proof none were used. That's enough for you and you investigate it no further because to do that would dismantle your own beliefs of which are really only based on feelings not facts.

posted on Jan, 16 2008 @ 08:03 AM
And there you have it, Criss Angel HIMSELF admitting he edits his footage and has a facility to do it!

I wonder what the believers have to say about that. Great find Violet

posted on Jan, 16 2008 @ 04:20 PM
reply to post by violet

Great find.

Nutty stuff, I like that. Still you know they will say Criss is just fooling us still. Just wait.

posted on Jan, 16 2008 @ 05:34 PM
On Larry King's website, he had a web extra "king's Cribs". Angel shows off his Luxor suite. Not sure if the vid is still available on CNN. Could be on youtube, haven't checked. It was an extended version of what was shown on Larry King Live.

You can see this warehouse and the vast collection of monitors & cameras in his Luxor suite he has trained on it. At ALL times, anytime he can control everything. This is what he talks about in the interview, how he can connect to his entire staff & prop warehouse! He talked about it on this king cribs film.

As for saying there's no evidence he uses props, why then does he sell invisble thread & other items on his site? But we've discussed this and it was denied by the believers. And again in the Halloween special he talked about visiting magic shops to buy props & also invented and manufactured his own. He talked how a small stupid little glass trick would later becme the walk thru glass illusion.

I've read his book now, and he is obsessed with keeping his brain working on how he can make the imposible possible. To be able to have something come off as supernatural, when in reality it was a carefully orchestrated illusion is a huge "fix" for him.

A bt more info ...

I've now talked with fans who've gone to his demos. I aksed if what he did was just as amazing as it comes across on MF and the answer was "yes". That it was hard to figure out how he did an illusion, even when veiwing up close.

I also learned that he apparantly tells the audience (just as he has done in interviews regarding his denial of the paranormal) that what he did was an illusion and reminds them he isn't supernatural etc. Basically it seemed that most of the spectators / fans know he's an ilusionist and watch him with that in mind, but there are a few in the crowds that believe as EW & PR do, that he is performing real magic. He must be good!

Regarding spectators who appear on his shows more than once. It really does seem that these fans just keep going down to Vegas to be near him & end up being on the shows and we keep seeing the same people. Anyone can go to his tapings, the dates & locations are posted on his site (he's filming season 4 right now until April). These fans are very obsessed with this need to get as close to him as they can, at every chance they can! They plan meet-ups with other fans and stay for a few days going to all the demos etc.

Having said that, in the case of levitating the same girl twice and other examples we've found, obviously not all the spectators are a bunch of obsessed fans.

posted on Jan, 17 2008 @ 04:19 AM
Here's another speech by Angel with King:

KING: I don't know if you know Dunninger.

ANGEL: Oh, I know of him. I have never seen him perform.

KING: The famed mentalist. He could read minds.

ANGEL: Sure. Fantastic.

KING: Is that a trick?

ANGEL: That -- put it this way, no one has the ability, that I'm aware of, to do anything supernatural, psychic, talk to the dead. And that was what I said I was going to do with "Phenomenon." If somebody goes on that show and claims to have supernatural psychic ability, I'm going to bust them live and on television. That's what Houdini did for more than half of his life, because those people prey on the vulnerable.

posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 08:37 AM
Criss does not believe that he is doing anything ' supernatural ' or ' psychic '; what he does is NATURAL for all humans similarly disposed.

There is a CLUBHOUSE structure near the golf course shoot and that is the shadow. That shadow does not EVEN look like a crane!! Maybe you have never seen a crane, but they do not look like that!! Bad call on your part. There goes your ' crane '.

Every single one of the ' examples ' posted above say NOTHING about the main facts:

Criss uses EDITING, like ALL TV you people know what EDITING is? EDITING is NOT changing the film to trick people into thinking that something filmed was not in fact what was filmed. EDITING is a totally NORMAL way to make lots of film fit into specific time frmaes..I worked in TV long ago and it all is split second timing;editing just makes the most pertinent pieces fit smoothly into the flow of the program.

OF COURSE Criss edits, everyone does!! But he NEVER EVER implied or stated that he uses TRICKERY to deceive, which is what YOU deniers read into his words, and that is NOT correct. Criss is NOT saying that he fools people by manuipulating film..that is NOT what he is saying, and if you think he is you need to learn what editing means to film production.

When Criss says he is doing his ' mind/body /SPIRIT events, what do you think he means? Why use SPIRIT if it is all just props? He said it took him years to be able to do the Luxor event;that does NOT mean that he used props, now does it? No, of course not. He does not say that or imply it. He means that it took years to work up the abilities to be able to levitate at those heights.

The golf course stands alone as the premiere levitation event ever captured on film: Broad daylight, NO PROPS whatsoever, witnesses NOT paid in any way to lie and act ' awed ', and no proof of that ever. There is NO crane, there is no tricking the videos to make it look different than what the people saw that day....I guess you deniers must believe that Criss is paying off the world and still makes sad. All the above posts are just repeats of the past million pages of this thread, and nothing new. Still no proof of props, still no witnesses claiming payoffs, still no other person on earth duplicating the events..still the deniers have ZERO.

posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 09:23 AM

Originally posted by eyewitness86

There is a CLUBHOUSE structure near the golf course shoot and that is the shadow. That shadow does not EVEN look like a crane!! Maybe you have never seen a crane, but they do not look like that!! Bad call on your part. There goes your ' crane '.

Why would the club house shadow compress itself into a long and tall structure? Would there be shadows of the windows that surround the cabin of a crane in the shadow? Why does the club house shadow extent so far across the road and lawn? Are you saying they have a huge flag pole on top of the club house?

If CA was levitating close to the golf course club house, where are all the course employee's? Wouldnt they like to witness CA fly across the golf course?

The rest of your post is bull. Nothing but the same brush off and tirade.

[edit on 18-1-2008 by InSpiteOf]

posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 10:16 AM
Tell you what. I will call the Golf Course after looking at the video agaion and getting the name of it..and I will call them today or tomorrow as my schedule permits, and ask them ( and I will get names ) about the filming of the event, and if there is a structure there that made the shadown or if there was any equipment hauled in that day for the event. I will NOT ask any questions in a leading way: In fact, I will try and make sure that I do not prejudice the answer by asking questions that are totally neutral and only meant to ascertain the truth.

After doing that, if you still claim that all the people are loyal and liars forever, I am giving up on you. If you cannot determine odds any better than that, you are useless for this discussion because you cannot determine reality with any certainty.

In the meantime, I am compiling the list I promised and will post it soon: A comparison of our beliefs and reasons why.

What more can I do?

posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 10:19 AM
reply to post by eyewitness86

I believe its the Las Vegas Golf Club. Dont quote me on that, but its a place to start.

Frankly, asking questions isnt what we need. What we need is a picture of the club house.

I probably wont be responding to this thread for the better part of the week (starting saturday 19th) as Im not going to be in the country.

Edit to add: I guess you cant really answer any of the questions i posed to you in the above post?

[edit on 18-1-2008 by InSpiteOf]

posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 10:45 AM
the golf course is allegedly on the :

stallion mountain country club


i have just looked at the course map and viewed the site with GE and all buildings are very low and set well back from the fairways

` eyewitness ` is just clutching straws now - he does not know where the course is , what hole the stunt was filmed on - but is convinced that the shadow " must be " the club house - that is blind faith

having just reviewed the video of ths stunt - another issue pops up which supports the crane theory

when mr angel is pissing about in a golf cart - he sets off across a fairway - but to do the stunt he has ` miraculously` returned to a point right next to a paved road way

posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 11:02 AM
I just spoke to Anthony, a very nice man at Stallion Mtn. He told me that thje club has changed hands several times in the last year or two, and he doubts if anyone there now was there for the event. However, I gave him my number and name and asked him to ask around and see if anyone remembers anything about it and to call me if so.

If a Google Earth shows ( not some few ads for the club ) that there are no buildings close to the course at all, and that has NOT been proven, then perhaps the shadow was caused by the van Criss uses for his equipment..who knows? But I know for sure it is no crane!! I have seen too many cranes at work to believe that.

If it turns out that there is no way to verify with any employees there what happened, then we are still stuck with the deniers asking us to believe the following:

Criss brought in a crane and invisible wires. Criss bussed in hired actors to lie and act amazed. criss knows that none of these paid witnesses will EVER tell anyone about the event, and that these people will remain loyal and silent forever, just like all the rest over the years. Criss then managed to silence everyone else involved and the loyalty extends to all his employees also.

Now, people. Is it MORE LIKELY that the above paragraph is true, or that Criss can levitate without props and paid off witnesses? If you say that it is more likely that Criss pulled off all of the above, yet again for the umteenth time, then you are not eligible for any more rational discourse, because you simply are unable to weigh odds intelligently. It is HOPELESS to try and convince people who are unable, or unwilling, to see the odds involved in every equation.

What are the ODDS that Criss ALONE, of all humanity, could get away with what he does? What are the ODDS that not ONE other performer has ever, or would, duplicate or actually surpass Criss events? What are the ODDS that Criss can engender total and permaent loyalty from not only his employees, but from the public as well!! What are the ODDS that Criss is the ONLY illusionist on earth that has access to props that cannot be seen or witnessed or alleged? What are the ODDS that NO ONE, not any other person in the ' profession 'of illusion , has any interest in topping Criss?

I could go on and on but the intelligent person can see immediately that when you start compounding these odds, it gets to the point where youi run out of zeroes at the end and it becomes stupid. It is STUPID to think that odds in the trillions of trillions could be the MOST LIKELY answer when the plain and simple truth is staring you in the face: Criss uses no props, no one has ever shown or even alleged that the props exist, and you CANNOT show us even ONE example of anyone doing the same events WITH props!!

How can you look in the mirror? You KNOW that is NOT ONE person can duplicate or surpass Criss events, then the reason for it is NOT that they are lazy, or disinterested in making money and having the fame...the reason is that no one else CAN do what Criss does. If they could, they WOULD, and you damn well know it. To imagine otherwise illustrates better than I ever could exactly how far out the odds are for the deniers.

More soon.

posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 11:10 AM
reply to post by violet

Any WHY do you call it a ' shadow of a crane"? just because some poster guessed that in another post? See how easy it is to spread nonsense? One person makes a totally uneducated guess, and another picks it up and repeats it as if it were a proven fact!! Amazing.

Violet, do you have any reason to believe there is a crane there except for the imaginings of someone el;se? Or do you actually have some proof or evidence to offer? I thought not..try something original or at least please do not merely parrot the guesses of someone else...there is NO crane. there are NO wires. there are NO paid off witnesses. If you have any proof of such, bring it on!! No one has yet: maybe you will be the first!!

posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 11:23 AM
reply to post by eyewitness86

Too bad about the dead end.

But really, a van? You expect us to believe that a vans shadow got so streched out as to spread itself across most of the field of view? what are the ODDS that such a thing could happen.

By the way, I worked contruction for a while, it does look like a crane's shadow. Show me another vehical thats shadow streches so long.

posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 11:36 AM
reply to post by eyewitness86

if there was no collusion between mr angel , staff and the " witnesses " at the stallion mountain club does it not strike you as odd that such a " miracle " has been totally forgotten about ? and that no one there staff or members even recalls it happening ??

yup - its those independant witnesses who never utter a word about what they saw again

lastly - do not take my word for it - look at the course maps for the stallion mt club and the GE view and tell me which hole the stunt was preformed at , and which building cast that shadow

time to do some resarach ` eyewiness `

posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 02:52 PM
reply to post by ignorant_ape

Like I said already, the man said that NO ONE had been there long enough to have seen the event. The staff has turned over entirely. Can you understand that? Good, now you know why no one remembered.

The rest is all just nonsese..cranes on a golf course. Look at the edge of the thimng, square up top, and sun angle can ELONGATE shadows to make them lengthen..right? On we go.

posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 02:55 PM
Oh, by the way, I noticed that you guys NEVER touch the parts about the ODDS and what Criss would have to do. Please answer my paragraphs that request comment and stop ignoring it. The ODDS kill you right off the bat, and you know it.

In order to believe like you do, the foillowing must be accepted:

( Now go back and read and answer my last post of ;ength and answer it).

posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 04:14 PM

Originally posted by eyewitness86
Oh, by the way, I noticed that you guys NEVER touch the parts about the ODDS and what Criss would have to do. Please answer my paragraphs that request comment and stop ignoring it. The ODDS kill you right off the bat, and you know it.

By now i know you seriously believe that, but...

How? How can you really believe the odds are in favour of CA really being able to fly?

Yeah, i know.. Now you're gonna repeat all that about witnesses...

But you just don't seem to be able to comprehend how horrible the reverse "logic" you are using really is.

Originally posted by eyewitness86
In order to believe like you do, the foillowing must be accepted:

It is you who believes. We just prefer to decide what to believe based on facts. Not new agey wishfull thinking.

I am amazed again and again, how you are capable of blaiming us of all the logical fallacies you yourself are doing.

In fact, the best description of your way of thinking so far, was delivered by you. Only that you were projecting it onto everyone else.

This is exactly why many people simply give up trying to reason with you.

posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 04:50 PM
reply to post by eyewitness86

If your are going to get prissy about us " ugnoring the odds " lets hear the maths - what are the odds ?

PS - you have ignored countless questions - as we are discussing the golf course stunt :

what is the object that tracks above mr angels head ?

come on - you claim that the vid is al you need to see exactly what transpires - so what is that object ?

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