criss angel discussion...

Originally posted by GoToTheLight
Paul Richard a Jeet Kune Do martial artist? Sifu Lee would be very disappointed friend..be like water!!

Somehow I'm skeptical of this claim.

Tell you what. Go ask Paul to explain the JKD 'Hammer Principle'.

If he's JKD he'll be able to do it. If not, he'll evade the question.

But back to the topic.

I actually like Criss Angel. Only a very few of his stunts have not worked very well, and a couple of them have been really good.

I'd much rather watch him than to listen to Derek Brown. Now, I like Derek, find his accent and britishism quaint, but after a while it gets tiring. I'd really like to see him do a lot more of pure mentalism than to rely so much on plants and tricky wording (Don't use 'stooges', he says, giving himself plausible denial).

But how long do these guys last? Isn't David Blaine pretty much passe?

reply to post by keymaster



I would have to second Keymasters breakdown of how CA earns his money.

Eyewitness's logic falls apart yet again. He claims CA makes most of his money from live shows yet his most impressive "high Levitation", on top of the Luxor, was free? hmmmm. All of his other levitations he has a maxiimum of twenty people witnessesing any of them. Would it not make sense from him to do those levitations in front of the masses and make the $$$$ if live shows are where he makes his money?

I'm pretty sure from judging from the 'witnesses" to the high levitations that they weren't paying $5,000 a pop to see him do them. Otherwise that Asian looking girl that is at the walk on water and the building to building levitation sure spent a lot of money to see CA levitate for all of maybe a minute combined.

Sorry about the taking you to task Eyewitness for your comments, your writing style is very combative as I am sure you know. The demeaning comments and the lack of evidence you claim to have but never produce. It justs gets kinda old. Just being honest.

For starters hoping you will provide proof for your claims, how many live shows does CA actually do in Vegas and how is he compensated for them? You have made the claim that the bulk of his income is from these live shows. You can't use the Cirque show numbers as proof as those haven't even happened. Use the past three years the Mindfreak series has been on.

Just a funny thought, now that CA wll be doing an elborate stage show, with props, smoke and lighting, will both of you think less of him, given how much creed you put into his "street performances". I mean "anyone" can levitate on a stage, right?


[edit on 18-9-2007 by pavil]

I have not read any replys, except for a few on the last page......I work in TV and movies (art department) currently on FOX's Hells kitchen shooting back to back season 4 and 5...Anywho! I know a guy that worked/works on Mindfreak (I worken with him on "Fight Girls" that was shooting in Vegas for a month.

It all boils down to the copius amount of papers you sign......He said he know severla of the "tricks" Chris is doing..........

Case in point: If I reveal anything about hell's kitchen........They can sue me for upwards of $5 million dollars.............How do I know that? I sign those papers all the time....So why would I NOT spill the beans and potentially make a boatload of money?

Because, you get paid VERY well, and and It's a very tightknot small community!

DONT BURN YOUR BRIDGES!

Originally posted by eyewitness86
Before I ask one more simple question, here is my reply to the personal attacks against me: They illustrate clearly the depth to which some people will go to avoid simple questions . It is quite apparent that since not one of you can actually give us anything more than totally unsupported assertions you must resort to slander and innuendo and lies to veer the attention away from your empty position. The more aware and intelligent people reading this will see the obvious and those already mired in Denial will never see it, so you have been a most effective demonstration of the utter lack that is the basis of your beliefs.

I actually left this thread because of the constant attacks you threw at us. You skillfully avoided singling out one of us specifically by using blanket statements, even after being asked repeatedly by myself and others.

So far, everyone that has joined this thread has sided with us deniers, i guess they are all intellectually dishonest, spiritually inept, and devoid of all reason and logic.

But on to business: Here is my new question, since none of you but Pavil had the gaul to suggest a series of impossible, unproven, unwitnessed, unalleged, never photograhed ( by ANY camera, personal or private) possibilities as to how Criss can perform his high levitations and certain other events:

Please explin to us how Criss Angel manages to make a living, in Las Vegas, with a LIVE show, if he has to pay his witnesses and tricks all the film? He makes the majority of his money from LIVE appearances at the hotel(s) there and has for several years.

keymaster did a good job at solving your little puzzle. But seeing as you rehash your statements at least 3 times within a post, i figured you wouldnt mind a little rehash of the answer.

CA makes his cash off his TV appearences, DVD's, royalties, and ad shares. Seeing as no one is able to provide any evidence of how much he is making for his live preformances, they should be left out of the discussion.

My question to you: Can you show us, using video evidence, his live, on stage preformances?

Who would pay to see some guy who is faking all of his events?

Uhh, your kidding right? How about all those people that pay to go and see stage magicians?


Im still waiting for your point by point critique of our position, with cited evidence to back up your refutations, as well as, your statistical analysis and statistical data to back up your claims that the odds are in your favor.

if people would not pay to watch a " faker " , can believers explain the polularity / wealth of :

seigfried and roy

penn & teller

david copperfield

well ?

P&T unreservedly declare that its all fake , but still thier shows sell out

Originally posted by keymaster
Show me one person, just one person, who has seen Criss Angel live. The one person I've found who saw him, saw wires. But you ignore his claims. Everything you've shown for your proof doesn't have people who are paying him to see a show. He performs street magic which you don't charge for. It's supposedly spur of the moment, which would negate the paying customer. Since he has so many live shows from which he makes his living, why is there no footage of his shows other than what is from Mindfreak? Why can I find nowhere to purchase tickets to see Criss Angel perform live. He invites everyone to come see him, but doesn't provide a when.

I think this is the most telling thing in this whole debate. The supporters of CA refer to the throngs of people who have witnessed these events yet never do we see evidence of them other than CA's own videos and website. I can very easily contend that CA's image is totally controlled by CA and that he gives the "illusion" of performing impromteau street magic to the masses when in reality he does very limited public demonstrations that are highly controlled and filmed. So far no one has presented evidence to the contrary.

From Parade Magazine.

Criss Angel about his mind and body demonstrations.

P: Everybody's teasing. If you can do all these illusions, how come you can't fix all your own problems? How come you can't fix all the problems in the world?

CA: I never claim that anything I do is real because I don't believe that anybody has any supernatural abilities that can't be explained or reproduced as tricks. I've been somebody who's been able to both blur the lines between illusions and reality by using these demonstrations of the mind and body and to show what's possible when you put your mind to something. But by no means am I perfect. I never asked to be a role model to anybody [laughs].

This is a good point.

I was watching 'The Manitou' with Tony Curtis the other night.

In it, he's a bit of a huckster and a 'fake' tarot card reader.

When his friend comes down with a supernatural problem he goes to a local expert for help. The expert makes some comment about the problem and Tony (Harry Erskine) says (about the paranormal)

"Doc, I'm a Seller, not a Buyer".

IOW, those that are in the trade are frequently even more skeptical of claims of the paranormal, partly because they've been around and seen it all.

Now I'm all for Magic and Illusion. What I don't like are acts like John Edwards, where he has people believing he's actually channelling their dead relatives. This is preying on the people and it's despicable.

Anyway, good point on that quote.

reply to post by eyewitness86



Out of curiousity do believe any other magicians have real magic powers.
David Blaine rips his heart out,Copperfield gets cut in half etc.
What makes Angel any different?

IMO he's a very poor magician and just because he's popular it doesnt make him good.
I find his stuff rather vulgar and slap dash.
Just because Britneys has had no 1s in the charts it doesnt make her a good singer,just reflects on how many people have bad taste.
Are those two still dating? says it all really.
I guess its good you have a sense of wonder but i'de advise more research into tricks and Illusions before claiming they are real,otherwise you just look gullible and leaves you open to be exploited.

Psst,wanna buy some magic beans.

reply to post by eyewitness86

The "attacks" are coming from you.
We've been called unintelligent, Rabid, inept, blind, closed-minded and more from you. Every post you make is paragraph after paragraph about how stupid WE are!

You've asked for proof on alot of things and alot has been provided to you, but you discredit all these, because they were the "wrong answer".

Back on topic ..
Anyways, I watched the Luxor Light Float this week. I had only seen that one on youtube. He was shown going up the steps to the top of the building towards the light, but I didn't catch him exiting the building to the outside and positioning himself above the Luxor. Perhaps I sneezed and missed it? His feet looked too flat, like he is standing on a base. he looked like a Hologram to me. Not to say it was that, it's just a comment I'm making that's how he looked.

Where I have a problem "believing" is when those spectators sound so fake. They sound like Infomercials. It's ok when some of them do actually sound legit, but quite often they just don't. Irregardless, I love watching him!

[edit on 21-9-2007 by violet]

reply to post by GoToTheLight


I'm 21.. Not 87.. But yeah, I see where you're coming from.

This will be the last post for a while from me on this matter; it is getting repititious and aggrvating and no longer any fun. Deniers talk about everything EXCEPT the odds required to believe that massive fakery and conspiracies among scores of people to remain silent forever, and that props that cannot be seen or photographed or witnesed even at close range. The odds alone tell the tale; anything else we talk about is side issues: The odds say that it is more LIKELY, a word that Deniers flee from like a vampire from a cross, that Criss can levitate than it is that Criss is able to pull off the massive undertaking required to stage the events as seen.

It insults the intelligence of any reasonable and open minded person to be asked to believe odds like that. No one can rise to the level of prominence that Criss and David and Cyril have by paying people to lie and trusting them to stay quiet about it, that beyond reason. Or to risk an entire career on video editing to edit out cranes and wires and whatever alleged props are needed to stage the events, with all involved remaining silent forever also, of course. What are the odds? Or are we to believe that when Criss levitated the lady on Fremont Street that the entire crowd was in on some hoax and reacted the way they did as a favor to Criss? What are the odds?

There is enough historical evidence that proves beyond any doubt that human levitation has occurred and been documented, as has been shown by Paul Richard in the Home stories. Through history, in certain situations, men have levitated. Its a fact. Is it such a stretch to believe that one guy out of every billion or so can practice and hone the ability or realize the ability or whatever manifestation it takes in their concience mind? Why is that concept so hard to accept? Especially when solid historical evidence exists.

The fact that no proof or evidence or witness has ever alleged the necessary elements of the Deniers case in chief should be a further impetus for belief in a proven phenomenon. One should lean toward belief as a logical matter, seeing that the prepondrance of actual evidence points to that quite clearly. Not one witness ever squeals. Not one employee ever becomes disgruntled. No film editor lets it slip to a loose lipped friend. No film showing the props, despite the protestations that they " must ' be there from the Deniers. What are the odds? Beyond astronomical and you know it.

Any HONEST appraisal would point to acceptance of the phenomenon until and unless some reliable evidence was shown that proved beyond a doubt that props are used in the high levitstaions and certain other events. That is logical, given the weight of all available evidence. At least to a fiar minded and logical person, that is. There are many unfair minded and illogical thinkers out there and they are always adamant that they must be right but for some reason the proof, the real proof, always eludes them. The main issues always haunt them, they must imagine and speculate in order to formulate their opinions, as no evidence exists that supports such views.

I am not insulting anyone, all I have said is that people in a state of chronic denial cannot be relied on for rational and fair minded appraisals, thats obvious to anyone, I am certain. People who cling to belief in things that have no basis in reality are showing ' blind faith ', which is conforting to them, it gives them certainty in an uncertain world, it established firm parameters for security; it feels good to be right about something, even if others do not agree. See the psychology of it? It stands out like a sore thumb: Denial is a condition that is so deeply seated that nothing but direct confrontation with absolute proof will suffice to convince them of anything, and when presented with that evidence, they will deny the veracity of value of it and dismiss it. under no conditions will denier ever admit to one single element despite the proofs, because they know to do so would mean the whole house of cards would come tumbling down, and reality would crash in like a tsunami.

I believe we have reached a nadir in our efforts to examine and enlighten a few fellow travelers on this road, but we have reached the end, at least for me. The only people left now are the ones repeating the same old things, never changing, nothing new, always odds beyond the stars, no proof, fantastic assumptions..it is now becoming boring, and I do not have time for that. I will check in now and then and see if any Deniers ever actualy come up with something solid to prove their allegations of trickery, so far none have done so.

[aulRichard has links on his posts that have a great deal of info on them; I have not reached any definite conclusions on some matters he espouses, but anm reviewing them. That is the way that open minded people discover new horizons and new perspectives.

That is the whole key to all of this, really: PERSPECTIVE .It says it all. If you had a slightly different perspective believing the obvious would be no problem for you. But some of you are caught in that very common denial state and need to break free of those constraints; they arte keeping you from moving on in knowledge.

At least examine the odds, if nothing else, if you are too lazy to research and learn, at least do that. look at those odds. If you can take odds like those, you are the dream of every gambler and con man in the world.

Enjoy yourselves being very sure that you are right and that Criss just pays them all off and gets lucky all the time..go ahead. But some day when lots more people start doing it, remember this time when you were so sure of yourself, and recall that I was right after all. That is if denial has not got such a grip on you that you ignore even more evidence..pity.

Hopefull the thread will not just degrade into a self assured boasting of victory by the Deniers; they have proven nothing and are beyond reasoning with, and as such should have no pride in their performance to date. No hard feelings, just disappointment that people still canot see the denial that grips them; typical but sad nonetheless.

Originally posted by eyewitness86
Deniers talk about everything EXCEPT the odds required to believe that massive fakery and conspiracies among scores of people to remain silent forever, and that props that cannot be seen or photographed or witnesed even at close range. The odds alone tell the tale; anything else we talk about is side issues: The odds say that it is more LIKELY, a word that Deniers flee from like a vampire from a cross,

First off once again it is repetitive but the props aren't as you describe them. You make them sound non existent since we have no video evidence. Here's a little hint, magician that actually allow their props to be photographed don't do too well commercially, kinda ruins the whole "magic"" aspect of their performance. CA just carefully shoots his events so we don't see the props. However that lack of shooting the props is evidence in of itself as for the example of never seeing the area 100-300 feet above him when he high levitates. We have provided ample means of his many illusions even to the point of knowing there is a company in Las Vegas that is one of a handful that specialize in ultra thin, ultra strong wire that is used in movies and illusions. We have showed you the exact same trick in some instances yet you just swat that away as cheap imitation.

You quote supposed odds yet never give figures or facts. What exactly is the odds of something that has never been scientifically proven in the modern age, human levitation, is actually a skill that Criss Angel a known Illusionist, possess? I'll give you a hint, 1,000,000,000 times zero (actual scientifically proved human levitations) is ZERO probability.

It insults the intelligence of any reasonable and open minded person to be asked to believe odds like that. No one can rise to the level of prominence that Criss and David and Cyril have by paying people to lie and trusting them to stay quiet about it, that beyond reason. Or to risk an entire career on video editing to edit out cranes and wires and whatever alleged props are needed to stage the events, with all involved remaining silent forever also, of course. What are the odds? Or are we to believe that when Criss levitated the lady on Fremont Street that the entire crowd was in on some hoax and reacted the way they did as a favor to Criss? What are the odds?

We have the testimony of a crew member of the "Hell's Kitchen" reality series telling us that he regularaly signs non disclosure agreements in the millions of dollars range if he talks about it and you still don't believe? The Freemont street levitation was done in front of a small crowd, I have been to Freemont street and it has never been that empty when I was there as when CA did his trick. Also, lest you forget, that girl is the same girl levitated years earlier in NY, it is a staged "street magic" performance. I know that shocks you, but we have provided the evidence.

There is enough historical evidence that proves beyond any doubt that human levitation has occurred and been documented, as has been shown by Paul Richard in the Home stories.

Actually history is resplendent with tales of levitation, yet very short on any scientifically proven examples. I will give you Home's story is intriguiing, but even that still does not warrant a scientifically proved example. Other than that we have second hand accounts or no actual clear cut evidence of human levitation.

Any HONEST appraisal would point to acceptance of the phenomenon until and unless some reliable evidence was shown that proved beyond a doubt that props are used in the high levitations and certain other events. That is logical, given the weight of all available evidence .

No offense intended here but that logic is not logic, it is belief. Logic and the scientific method demand that you question things until you can state with a certainty that you hypothesis is correct. Belief without proof is akin to religion in this sense. Physical manifestations such as human levitation can easily be documented and proven in a scientifically agreed on manner/method. That it has never be documented that way would point to continued investigation till your results yielded information one way or the other. You have provided no such documentation, while we have provided plausible scenarios for many of CA illusions. On that basis, we have provided more evidence to support our hypothesis than you have for yours. More proof will be needed to confirm our beliefs but enough proof has been gathered to call into question your hypothesis to say the least.

Originally posted by eyewitness86
The odds say that it is more LIKELY, a word that Deniers flee from like a vampire from a cross, that Criss can levitate than it is that Criss is able to pull off the massive undertaking required to stage the events as seen.

Ahh, the odds again. How is it more likely that he is levitating? I still have yet to see any scientifical proof of a man levitating. How is it beyond belief that an illusionist can pull off illusions? How is this such a MASSIVE undertaking?

There is enough historical evidence that proves beyond any doubt that human levitation has occurred and been documented, as has been shown by Paul Richard in the Home stories. Through history, in certain situations, men have levitated. Its a fact. Is it such a stretch to believe that one guy out of every billion or so can practice and hone the ability or realize the ability or whatever manifestation it takes in their concience mind? Why is that concept so hard to accept? Especially when solid historical evidence exists.

Like the historical evidence of mermaids and alchemy and wizards and sea monsters? Men levitating is not a fact. To call it a fact is an outright lie. The stretch is that three men, all of the sudden, can all do the exact same thing. They can all mysteriously levitate or alter the properties of glass, etc. Show me solid evidence. You have shown zero evidence of anything. PR has given the only links to anything and they're not exactly solid historical evidence.

The fact that no proof or evidence or witness has ever alleged the necessary elements of the Deniers case in chief should be a further impetus for belief in a proven phenomenon. Not one witness ever squeals.

Except the one witness I found, who you always ignore. You keep saying no witness, yet I have found one and repeatedly announced it.

At least examine the odds, if nothing else, if you are too lazy to research and learn, at least do that. look at those odds. If you can take odds like those, you are the dream of every gambler and con man in the world.

The odds again. WE have researched. You have not. Where is your research? What have you shown other than YouTube links? Where is your links backing up your claims. That's right, the only links were from PR.

Enjoy yourselves being very sure that you are right and that Criss just pays them all off and gets lucky all the time..go ahead. But some day when lots more people start doing it, remember this time when you were so sure of yourself, and recall that I was right after all. That is if denial has not got such a grip on you that you ignore even more evidence..pity.

I'm sure that day will not come anytime in the inevitable future. The only people levitating will be illusionists as it is today. If there was evidence, I wouldn't ignore it.

Hopefull the thread will not just degrade into a self assured boasting of victory by the Deniers; they have proven nothing and are beyond reasoning with, and as such should have no pride in their performance to date. No hard feelings, just disappointment that people still canot see the denial that grips them; typical but sad nonetheless.

We have proven much, much more than you have. The need for proof lied with you and you showed us none. The only one denying anything is you. By carefully ignoring certain facts we post and repeating yourself again and again, what have you proven?

Originally posted by Djarums
The only explanation I can think of is Hollywood effects with a "street audience" that is also in on it.

Other than that, there is simply no explanation.

I agree totally, BUT...
Where does he find sooo many people capable of falsely displaying such emotion? And we think Hollywood actors are good..
The "genuine" reaction of these people is the only thing that makes him so good.



[edit on 24/9/07 by NuclearPaul]

Originally posted by they see ALL
i have just seen criss angel's (a magician) tv show: "mindfreak"...

i tried to be a skeptic during the show but it was very difficult...

he was amazing

so, is there any logical explanations for his stunts (for those who have seen the show or heard about him)???

lets analyze this "magic" in this thread...

most of it is all scripted irekon nothing is really its all about money thats what i rekon maybe its tru maybe not but everything has an explanation to it

Originally posted by Vector J
Due, i'm getting sick of saying this, IT'S ALL AN ILLUSION. IF it was real, donlt you think he'd be shocking the entire woorld with his power?

The answer to that is no.
Let's ASSUME that everything he does is real "magic power", just to prove a point.
So let's ASSUME he REALLY walked on water, using "magic powers".
Shock the entire world, of course not.
Because it would look EXACTLY like it does in his show.
Then people, who won't "believe it until I see it", won't believe it anyway, would they? They would say "he's using wires". You know I'm right.
He WOULD shock the world ONLY when the government came forward on TV and said it was real.
I don't know how he does it, so as an open minded person, I say "I don't know how he does it".
Does he use wires? If you believe so, prove it.
The problem being no one has, and no one probably ever will.
Strange things DO happen in this world...

Originally posted by NuclearPaul

Originally posted by Vector J
Due, i'm getting sick of saying this, IT'S ALL AN ILLUSION. IF it was real, donlt you think he'd be shocking the entire woorld with his power?

The answer to that is no.
Let's ASSUME that everything he does is real "magic power", just to prove a point.
So let's ASSUME he REALLY walked on water, using "magic powers".
Shock the entire world, of course not.
Because it would look EXACTLY like it does in his show.
Then people, who won't "believe it until I see it", won't believe it anyway, would they? They would say "he's using wires". You know I'm right.
He WOULD shock the world ONLY when the government came forward on TV and said it was real.
I don't know how he does it, so as an open minded person, I say "I don't know how he does it".
Does he use wires? If you believe so, prove it.
The problem being no one has, and no one probably ever will.
Strange things DO happen in this world...

Oh no, another one with the lame line "If he uses wires or props and you believe so, prove it. "

Man, have you not been reading these postings at all??
If you have not, please dont post this kind of comments, before you read up on things!

Really, I mean no offense, but if you *had* read all postings you would have seen that this has been proven again and again and again...

The problem has been that a certain individual (hmmmm....who can that be??) still states that this is not the case, despite the mounting evidence...

Before you demand an answer, please read up on the thread...if you dont have the time and will to browse 82 pages full of postings, then at least read the last 10 or so...and you will see the proofs you are asking for...

// k

For some reason my posting disappeared so for every ones enjoyment here it is again!:

---

Oh no, another one with the lame line "If he uses wires or props and you believe so, prove it. "

Man, have you not been reading these postings at all??
If you have not, please dont post this kind of comments, before you read up on things!

Really, I mean no offense, but if you *had* read all postings you would have seen that this has been proven again and again and again...

The problem has been that a certain individual (hmmmm....who can that be??) still states that this is not the case, despite the mounting evidence...

Before you demand an answer, please read up on the thread...if you dont have the time and will to browse 82 pages full of postings, then at least read the last 10 or so...and you will see the proofs you are asking for...

// k

This is from a thread in skunk works:

I'm really good friends, with one of chris angels consultants. he is also a great illusionist himself. and trust me guys. its all an illusion. Theres alot of stuff they will never tell me but I assure you he is no jesus. Im actually trying to turn them onto this thread so they can get a kick out of these things u say. What I can tell you is this, Like david blain all the endurance stunts are mostly real exept the escapes of course. Chris angel has alot more money and when u have money to invest in illusions provided by private companies u can do the near impossible. Chris has the resources and the funds to do alot of things that even david copperfield can do. He is also close friends with some of the best magicians in the world. But unlike copperfield he has taken it to the streets.
However on the other hand Remote veiwing is probably his second best talent besides slight of hand and illusions.
please trust me on this! even though he blows my mind, ive seen alot of the stuff done "behind the scenes" and I'm like noway! thats way to easy! just like any other magic trick exposed,, soon u will all know but by the time the publc knows any of these tricks there will be new ones. Its for our entertainment. No conspiracy here..

Source


Just another witness to add to our side. There are a few vids on page one of the thread i havent had a chance to check out just yet. But if their new, i think we should add it to our side of the debate.