criss angel discussion...

reply to post by Arawn



Actually I think David Copperfields "flying" illusion is even better than the Criss Angel's "high Levitations". The passing through the twirling sets of rings is very impressive. Criss Angel does nothing on that scale in regards to going through objects while levitating.

Eyewitness and Paul Richards, please explain how David does this trick with props. You have previously stated that DC does not have the gift and therefore it must be an illusion. I am curious to how you think he does it.

There are many performers that can do very impressive things on a stage or under controled conditions; we call them ' magicians ' or ' illusionists '. Then there are three people, the only three people on earth so far, who go out into the streets and into public and do things that defy explanation since no props are visible or possible under the circumstances.

The stage performers like Copperfield, a great profesional, and others, are not able to go out in public as they depend on lighting and props. Criss and Cyril and David challenge the viewer to discover the props, and so far none has been able to do so. The people who do the most stunning and convincing events are the ones that make the most money and garner the most attention, therefore one could safely assume that new and aspiring performers wanting a career would be doing the same things, if not more and better, to make a name for themselves.

But no one in the ' illusion ' game seems to want to try and emulate Criss, now do they? No one else is walking up walls, and levitating from huge atriums and across golf courses, now are they? Not one. None. What are the odds that we have reahced the state of the art in illusions and there will never be anything new or beyond what we have already seen. Is that right? One would think that from all the competition Criss gets!! No one can even come close, so they do not even try. Why is that? Because the ONLY way that they could replicate the events that Criss does would leave the props evident and in plain view.

No one can recreate the effects unless they expose the props that have never been seen or witnessed or photographed. Since no one can duplicate the events and show us the way it is done WITH props that cannot be seen and duplicate the effects seen on the video's, it is safe to assume that Criss is NOT using props. If he was others would be showing us the same effects and how the props were used. But that has never happened, in all Criss career. Wonder why? Just lucky, I guess, hih?

The only way that performing unique events such as illusions and feats on etherreal ability, among the standard sleight of hand, etc. can survive is byu advancing and moving ahead. And the stage is only able to accomplish so much, quite a bit but not as much as we see when Criss performs. You see what you get, and realizing exactly what it is, is half the fun. The rest of the fun is watching people try to wish and imagine props into existence when they do not in fact exist!! Try as they might, props that are never there to begin with are never going to be seen or photographed or witnessed, and the fact that this reality applies to Criss is abundant evidence of his unique abilities.

Originally posted by pavil
reply to post by Arawn

 

Actually I think David Copperfields "flying" illusion is even better than the Criss Angel's "high Levitations". The passing through the twirling sets of rings is very impressive. Criss Angel does nothing on that scale in regards to going through objects while levitating.

Eyewitness and Paul Richards, please explain how David does this trick with props. You have previously stated that DC does not have the gift and therefore it must be an illusion. I am curious to how you think he does it.

Here's an explanation video of the Copperfield Levitation. Really awesome video.

Once again, as with all great illusionists, he has led you to believe what you see. He's passed through rings and a double ring, however, they never actually pass over him. If you watch closely, you can see the illusion, it's just hard to catch because your brain has convinced you that something else happened in that split second moment. Pretty fascinating, the mechanics of these tricks..

reply to post by eyewitness86



Wow 5 paragraphs and yet you still failed to mention how he did the illusion. Can't you keep it more concise.

reply to post by WeaponsOfMassDistraction



Nice video, How convienent that one of the only places that makes the super strong, super thin wire is in Las Vegas......hmmm.
Nice explaination of the rings. Fools your eye when you see it, as all great illusions do.



[edit on 16-9-2007 by pavil]

I think everybody in this thread (except Eyewitness himself probably) agrees that the "CA-is-just-an-illusionist side" have produced quite some evidence as the posting of Pavil shows, whereas Eyewitness side has not, but mainly have pointed to Youtube videos edited by CAs own production company.

What is fun (or sad if you see it that way, which I more and more am starting to do) is that Eyewitness not only fails to come up with credible evidence to back his PoV, but still manages to write *long* ramblings with very little content about how *his* side in fact *knows* all the answers, whereas the other guys, ie. Pavil, Violet etc. doesnt have a clue and havent produced any evidence at all.

Either Eyewitness is blind to the evidence provided in this thread *or* he has almost everybody in this thread on Ignore, ie. he cannot see the evidence provided for him.

But lets take a step back and see how Eyewitness presents himself on his Profile:

"Stuff I Like
Cannabis - Motorcycles - Dogs - Jewelry - Backgammon - Challenging cops at every opportunity"

Stuff I Don't Like
99% of all pigs ( cops ) - Neocons of all types - Politicians - Liars ( see cops and politicians ! ) - Rappers and other thugs - Ignorant Americans ( 99% ) - Big Brother

I am a witness to a black triangle , seen in 1986. I am liberal and hate the establishment, especially as it is now. I believe that we have a moon that is occupied and a government that is out of control and corrupt. Society is basically so dumbed down that we will be lucky to survive. Aliens visit here all the time and 9-11 was an inside job without question. I support legalizing all drugs and taking our bation back from the criminals now in charge..."

Yeah, that was a really good presentation Eyewitness, made you come out as a really trustworthy guy...

And Paul Richard...

Actually, Paul has respect from my side (and I flagged him as one of my friends, although I really disagree with his views in this thread!) and manages to answer in an intelligent way most of the time.

He seems to have some insight in stuff that I find really interesting which may - or may not - explains his views on this thread.

Paul: What I dont understand is how a guy like you, that describes yourself as

"I have many years of experience in spiritual and metaphysical counseling.

* I have a history degree, graduated with high honors.

* Became a certified hypnotherapist in 1994 and have done past-life regressions and guided visualizations/ meditations with friends and family.

* Have an abundance of experience in dealing with discarnate demonic attack and in counseling people who have had similar experiences.

* My intuitive path started with the Tarot in the late 1970s. In the 1980s I learned how to channel Spirit directly.

* As a spiritual medium, I have more close friends on The Other Side - within the sky blue and white spectrum of discarnate energies - than I have on This Side.

* I have a Gift of Discernment and a Gift of Prophecy that is given to me from discarnate Saints. Our site has examples of this.

* I am also a lay nutritionist, Qigong practitioner, and Jeet Kune Do martial artist. ..."

even wants to be remotely associated with Eyewitness...that really eludes me and IMHO drags you down to his low level.

For those of you that enjoy Monthy Pyton you may remember the Black Knight sketch below...just insert Eyewitness as the Black Knight and you will quite clearly see what this reminds you of...



// k

[edit on 17-9-2007 by kickass]

I don't put people on my ignore list because of typos, nor do I claim victory because of same.

But that is a humorous notion. teeheehee

Originally posted by kickass
And Paul Richard...

Actually, Paul has respect from my side (and I flagged him as one of my friends, although I really disagree with his views in this thread!) and manages to answer in an intelligent way most of the time.

Thanks.

We can just agree to disagree. That is the polite thing to do.

Originally posted by kickass
He seems to have some insight in stuff that I find really interesting which may - or may not - explains his views on this thread.

I try to offer illumination whenever I can.

Originally posted by kickass
Paul: What I dont understand is how a guy like you, that describes yourself as

"I have many years of experience in spiritual and metaphysical counseling.

* I have a history degree, graduated with high honors.

* Became a certified hypnotherapist in 1994... "

even wants to be remotely associated with Eyewitness...that really eludes me and IMHO drags you down to his low level.

Thanks for the bio on me, although I don't think that most appreciated it.

Hey...let's all stop bashing Eyewitness86, okay?

We are all allowed to have our own opinion on whether or not Criss Angel is just an illusionist or if he also has a Gift of Prana/Ki that he uses for his more impressive feats.

Most of the people in this thread just consider Criss Angel to be a magician. As such, it takes a lot of chutzpah to be in the minority of those who have concluded that he also has a Gift, and to state so in here. So Eyewitness86, if for nothing else, gets brownie points for courage in going up against the vast majority.

I like that.

It reminds me of me.

Paul,
I think that Eyewitness gets bashed a lot here since he has a tendency to have a quite bad attitude to everyone disagreeing with him, he talks down and is rude to people instead of addressing the issue at hand...and once again, doesnt seem to be willing to put time and effort into getting more evidence than the usual YouTube videos...but the "other side" is working hard to get evidence into the light...

// k

Know what's funny? If not for the continued resistance of a couple people to the idea that these stage magicians are performing illusions, I don't think that members like Pavil would have taken it so far as to offer proof and dig up explanations of the tricks to the point where none of the CA gags are a mystery.

So, in effect, the very stubbornness is what has caused CA to be so thoroughly 'outed'.

Good job, guys.

reply to post by Badge01


I have to second that. If not for eyewitness86 continued tirades and lack of proof I would have been content to never research CA that much. It's not like I was a CA debunker beforehand and came to prove him for what he is, I just wanted to disprove eyewitness and his logic on this topic. I still enjoy CA but seeing his stunts, tricks and illusions now have taken away much of the "wow" factor. I bet the Cirque show will rock though. All good Illusionists and magicians still amaze me.

Originally posted by pavil
reply to post by Badge01

 

I have to second that. If not for eyewitness86 continued tirades and lack of proof I would have been content to never research CA that much. It's not like I was a CA debunker beforehand and came to prove him for what he is, I just wanted to disprove eyewitness and his logic on this topic. I still enjoy CA but seeing his stunts, tricks and illusions now have taken away much of the "wow" factor. I bet the Cirque show will rock though. All good Illusionists and magicians still amaze me.

That describes how I feel as well.
When I watched his shows this past week, I started to think I wish I didn't know some of the things we've found out in this thread.

I'd love to see the Cirque Show.

Interesting video of Mindfreak's Banachek Bending Forks.
There's more videos of him doing other demonstrations.

Originally posted by pavil
reply to post by Badge01

 

I have to second that. If not for eyewitness86 continued tirades and lack of proof I would have been content to never research CA that much. It's not like I was a CA debunker beforehand and came to prove him for what he is, I just wanted to disprove eyewitness and his logic on this topic. I still enjoy CA but seeing his stunts, tricks and illusions now have taken away much of the "wow" factor. I bet the Cirque show will rock though. All good Illusionists and magicians still amaze me.

Yep, same here. I really don't care all that much for Criss Angel. He's an excellent showman but his show comes on at the same time as other shows which I enjoy more, namely Mythbusters and Dirty Jobs. I just got annoyed with the tone from eyewitness and the way he was talking down to everyone, so I tried to prove our side. It's been fun, haven't found much the last few days new to post, so I've been quiet, content to read everyone else's post.

It's all real entertaining, isn't it? You guys know that's what it's about, right? Entertainment.

I don't think he's killing chickens before the footage to gain mystical voodoo powers, however.

Is this even a serious thread? How are people so disillusioned with reality. No one can fly, nobody can disappear, and nobody can freeze a ring in ice instantly. It's editing and paid observers. You'll believe that some guy that wears "bling" and listens to Korn can fly but his magical ability to hire paid crowds to go "Wooooooah, no way," is completely out of the question. We're in more trouble than I first thought. What a joke.

Paul Richard a Jeet Kune Do martial artist? Sifu Lee would be very disappointed friend..be like water!!


I also find it amusing that a guy advocating legalising all drugs has the cheek to call himself eyewitness. I would not want a drug stupified witness on my team

Originally posted by kickassFor those of you that enjoy Monthy Pyton you may remember the Black Knight sketch below...just insert Eyewitness as the Black Knight and you will quite clearly see what this reminds you of...
[edit on 17-9-2007 by kickass]

Thats this thread

I see a lot of Python parallels with this thread...there is definitely a "Life of Brian", only the real Messiah would say he's not the Messiah vein in it All those props will be Holy Relics in a couple of hundreds years time

reply to post by DeadFlagBlues


I totally agree geezer. I only come here for a laugh these days...and make sure the loonies are busily typing away on ATS to make it safer on the streets. If they ever learn the mobile Internet I'm in trouble

I see no evidence for Qi anything in the dodgy vids. In daily life we do not encounter this QiTK nonsense. On the other hand we know that props and editing exist on the millions of feet of film and vid shot over the years, yet we see very little evidence for it, thats why SFX, editing and creatives get nice bucks for their craft. So as I see it, the onis is on the QITK crowd to prove their case..as they are making claims that are beyond the realms of everyday knowledge. But we are safe from that proof

Lets be sure to focus the discussion on Criss Angel rather than members of this forum...attack the argument not the poster.

Thanks....

Before I ask one more simple question, here is my reply to the personal attacks against me: They illustrate clearly the depth to which some people will go to avoid simple questions . It is quite apparent that since not one of you can actually give us anything more than totally unsupported assertions you must resort to slander and innuendo and lies to veer the attention away from your empty position. The more aware and intelligent people reading this will see the obvious and those already mired in Denial will never see it, so you have been a most effective demonstration of the utter lack that is the basis of your beliefs.

But on to business: Here is my new question, since none of you but Pavil had the gaul to suggest a series of impossible, unproven, unwitnessed, unalleged, never photograhed ( by ANY camera, personal or private) possibilities as to how Criss can perform his high levitations and certain other events:

Please explin to us how Criss Angel manages to make a living, in Las Vegas, with a LIVE show, if he has to pay his witnesses and tricks all the film? He makes the majority of his money from LIVE appearances at the hotel(s) there and has for several years. That is his main source of income. He does NOT get one penny from us watching him on Youtube, and he makes little from TV revenue, which is based on advertisers perceptions of the buying power and likilhood of purchasing their particular products from that age group, financial status, etc. It is fair to say that Criss makes a decent amount from TV, but if it were a pot of gold, he would never work so many nights and do as many performances as he does.

Since the main source of his income is from live shows, he obviously cannot pay people to attend them!! They pay HIM, and they pay him to perform ILLUSIONS, " Body/Mind?Spirit demonstrations " as he calls them( such as levitation and teleportation, etc ) right in front of them, close up. No doubt Criss uses a variety of skills in his acts, that is why he is unique, that is why he is #1 in his business; he can do things that no other performers can do, with very few exceptions.

So, people pay him, and not the reverse. Not ONE person has ever alleged such payment, that HAS to mean something, even to a denier. NOT ONE person attending a LIVE Criss show has EVER seen the ' wires ' and ' props ' that are supposed to be removed from the video, as you allege. How can he fool the paying customer if he is using props and paying off witnesses to be silent forever? Tell us that please.

It makes no sense to me to believe that Criss can make a living if he relies on paid stooges and film deception, and of course total and eternal loyalty, which so far has worked 100% of the time!! Are THESE odds that you accept? I cannot believe that is the likley truth. Are you saying that the paying customers are all as loyal about keeping the secrets as the ' paid off ' ones are? What is the alternative? You cannot just ask us to accept that scenario without some validation.

Here is your chance. Give it your all. Tell us the answer to this one simple question:

How does Criss Angel manage to make money, big money, and remain on the very top of his profession, if his live audiences cannot see many of the same feats, up close, personal, and with every opportunity to see any props, wires, etc. that could be used to duplicate the feats seen on video?

Who would pay to see some guy who is faking all of his events? Some guy who must resort to: Paying off witnesses and expecting total loyalty forever, and relying on video trickery to eliminate the props, wires, etc, that made the event possible? Is THAT within the realm of LIKELIHOOD? Is that the most rational assumption? Do the odds make it feasible? Are these the kind of questions you ask in order to be intellectually honest in any debate? If not, WHY NOT?

So answer the question: Tell us HOW Criss makes money when he is all about deception, lies, payoffs, and a desperate need to trust strangers to the extreme? Why havn't other Vegas types before Criss just hired a gang of corrupt ( albeit loyal!! ) video tape tricksters and computer types if real money can be made from such efforts? Criss the only guy out there that likes money? Seems to be if you are right...

You are basicall alleging that Criss does illusions in his hotel performances, and fakes all the really big ones, like the ones at issue..is that right? If that is true then why would Criss be any more popular than any other skilled illusionist or stage performer if he can only do the same things they do? Criss DOES walk up the walls at his live enets, inside, and the people there are close enough to see that there are NO wires. Thats how close they are. THAT is why he is #1, at least in my humble opinion. I am sure you disagree so tell us all about the reasons why he makes money, and more than any other performer in Vegas.

But don't bother with all those questions I asked , just stick to the one big one: How does he make money if you are correct about him? I cannot wait to hear the sincere, intelligent, LIKELY ways that it can be so.

Originally posted by eyewitness86
Before I ask one more simple question, here is my reply to the personal attacks against me: They illustrate clearly the depth to which some people will go to avoid simple questions . It is quite apparent that since not one of you can actually give us anything more than totally unsupported assertions you must resort to slander and innuendo and lies to veer the attention away from your empty position. The more aware and intelligent people reading this will see the obvious and those already mired in Denial will never see it, so you have been a most effective demonstration of the utter lack that is the basis of your beliefs.

Actually since it's in print, it's libel not slander. Second, it's not innuendo when it's stated flat out. Innuendo is implied. No one is trying to distract from the thread, we are tired of your attacks. So far no one posting other than PR has agreed with you. I guess all of us here at ATS are unaware and unintelligent and mired in Denial.

Please explin to us how Criss Angel manages to make a living, in Las Vegas, with a LIVE show, if he has to pay his witnesses and tricks all the film? He makes the majority of his money from LIVE appearances at the hotel(s) there and has for several years. That is his main source of income. He does NOT get one penny from us watching him on Youtube, and he makes little from TV revenue, which is based on advertisers perceptions of the buying power and likilhood of purchasing their particular products from that age group, financial status, etc. It is fair to say that Criss makes a decent amount from TV, but if it were a pot of gold, he would never work so many nights and do as many performances as he does.

He makes little from tv? I think not. I'm sure he makes hundreds of thousands for each episode. He works those nights because it's his job. It's practice. Each television episode wouldn't take that many days to film. How many performances does he do in Vegas? I can't find any information about seeing him perform anywhere except in the upcoming deal with Cirque de Soleil. Links please.

Also, where are you coming up with any information on how much money he makes? Are you guessing or do you have facts?

Since the main source of his income is from live shows, he obviously cannot pay people to attend them!! They pay HIM, and they pay him to perform ILLUSIONS, " Body/Mind?Spirit demonstrations " as he calls them( such as levitation and teleportation, etc ) right in front of them, close up.

Once again you are guessing. You do not have any idea where the bulk of his income comes from. The Friends cast made $100,000 an episode after season two. Criss Angel is A&E's golden child, with their number one rated program. But I guess thats no pot of gold. The only live demonstrations we've seen have questionable guests, who may be stooges.

So, people pay him, and not the reverse. Not ONE person has ever alleged such payment, that HAS to mean something, even to a denier. NOT ONE person attending a LIVE Criss show has EVER seen the ' wires ' and ' props ' that are supposed to be removed from the video, as you allege. How can he fool the paying customer if he is using props and paying off witnesses to be silent forever? Tell us that please.

Show me one person, just one person, who has seen Criss Angel live. The one person I've found who saw him, saw wires. But you ignore his claims. Everything you've shown for your proof doesn't have people who are paying him to see a show. He performs street magic which you don't charge for. It's supposedly spur of the moment, which would negate the paying customer. Since he has so many live shows from which he makes his living, why is there no footage of his shows other than what is from Mindfreak? Why can I find nowhere to purchase tickets to see Criss Angel perform live. He invites everyone to come see him, but doesn't provide a when.

Here is your chance. Give it your all. Tell us the answer to this one simple question:

How does Criss Angel manage to make money, big money, and remain on the very top of his profession, if his live audiences cannot see many of the same feats, up close, personal, and with every opportunity to see any props, wires, etc. that could be used to duplicate the feats seen on video?

I have yet to see, other than the one at the luxor, him perform any of the difficult levitations in front of a large live audience who is paying him. In fact, during most of the videos you have submitted, and this goes for all the magicians, the crowd just supposedly shows up, all fifteen to twenty of them. That's not a large crowd. They paid no admission. Any show he has performed does not offer the same effects that he has for his television show.

But don't bother with all those questions I asked , just stick to the one big one: How does he make money if you are correct about him? I cannot wait to hear the sincere, intelligent, LIKELY ways that it can be so.

Good idea, I'll skip answering your repeated questions. As I've said before, although you seem inclined to believe otherwise, he does receive a large portion of money from the mindfreak tv show. I would guess, over $100,000 an episode. He has made three seasons of mindfreak; 17 episodes in season 1, 21 episodes in season 2, and 20 episodes in season three. That's 58 episodes. At $100,000 an episode, that would be $5,800,000 just for making the episodes. That doesn't count royalty's from the first two seasons on DVD, his specials on DVD, and other marketing that he is involved in, such as his "sponsorship" by the Luxor hotel. I guess that's not enough to live off of for three years. Considering I live off of less than $20,000 a year, I would imagine he lives very comfortably with anything he could possibly want.

Figuring at $100,000 an episode is probably an understatement considering his popularity. I haven't been able to find anything yet that proves my theory on what he makes. So no, I can't prove it. I am basing my numbers on what other actors and performers are making.

[edit on 9/18/2007 by keymaster]

Originally posted by eyewitness86
He does NOT get one penny from us watching him on Youtube, and he makes little from TV revenue, which is based on advertisers perceptions of the buying power and likilhood of purchasing their particular products from that age group, financial status, etc. It is fair to say that Criss makes a decent amount from TV, but if it were a pot of gold, he would never work so many nights and do as many performances as he does.

I didn't have room above for this. About the advertisers perceptions. Check this link.

A&E has once again landed in among the top five ad supported networks on cable, ending the first quarter of 2007 by posting double-digit gains over the same time period last year among key demographics. Versus the first quarter of 2006, A&E garnered increases of 40 percent among adults 25-54, 41 percent among adults 18-49, 44 percent among adults 18-34 and 44 percent in household rating. These increases represent the best quarterly averages in network history in adults 25-54 (731,000), 18-49 (717,000) and 18-34 (323,000).
Versus all ad-supported networks, A&E ranked fourth in adults 25-54 and fifth in adults 18-49. This marks the network’s best competitive quarterly performance ever in those demos.

Or how about this one?

VALUE TO ADVERTISERS
1. Eight (8) quarters of consecutive growth among Adults 18-49.
2. Dramatically improved younger demo impressions with the launch of successful original series.
3. A&E has an extremely visible programming profile among viewers, critics and trade press, and received the most Emmy nominations for any basic cable network in the history of the Emmy.
4. High net worth – Average viewers assets reaching over $1 million.

A&E’s viewers are....Getting Younger!
Prime Average Median Age 47
Down 14 years from August 2003-August 2005.

Daypart A25-54 VPVH
Mon-Fri 8a – 8p 503
Mon-Sun 8p – 11p 632
Sat-Sun 7a – 8p 615

I'm not going to post the whole page here, but check out the category "NETWORK VIEWER PRODUCT USAGE/LIFESTYLE PROFILE" on page 3.

I guess that means nothing to advertisers, huh? That's pretty good standings. The viewer demographic is getting younger and wealthier. Guess Criss Angel isn't going to see any money because of that, huh?