10 Myths About Islam

Frosty-quote]Originally posted by Frosty
Again, can you answers the man's question and name one prominent Islamic school or Islamic hospital, research center, or non-religous library? Islamic nations still do not allow for the practice of any religion other than Islam. Christian nations have outgrown their past.

Do not forget the fact that it was Muslims who started the Crusades in 711 with the invasion of the Iberian Peninsula, but were driven back across the Pyrenes by Charles Martel in 734. Why was this not in my high school text books?

Once again I am not going to try to procliam that islam is progressive and understanding, but I will continue to argue that christianity, when held in the same reguards as islam, is just as bloodthirsty, and mysogynistic, as any other repressive philosophy, so to try to hold christianity or its actions in another light is nothing less than revisionism.

As for names of islamic schools that can compare to western thought...that I can not do. I can however state with full assuredness that it was those of the muslim persuasion that introduced the European savages to the idea of the compass, and gunpwder, and map making , and other relevant technologies. Whilst we can all agree that it was the Europeans that mastered their applications, in reguard to exploitation of another nation, none who know history will try to calim that the technologies themselves were of european origin.

I only menation this as a counter to your argument that Muslims, and their belief, or ideology is somehow inferior to the ideology of that which you are familiar with

You seem to metnion Muslim conquest's as proof of your theory, when in fact, they only prove my (and many others )point that there is always more than one side to every story.

If you can prove me wrong then by all means do so.

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
Frosty-quote]Originally posted by Frosty I can however state with full assuredness that it was those of the muslim persuasion that introduced the European savages to the idea of the compass, and gunpwder, and map making , and other relevant technologies.

No, compass was introduced by the Chinese as well as gun powder. Arabs gave us suggar and the ancient Greeks were making maps before Christ was born.

Remember ...first and foremost people..Islam is a religion of peace.

Someone please tell me what the Haddith tells about the "Sword of Islam and what it means. The verses of the Sword.

Also please tell me how a person is subject to death if you leave islam. You are now a infidel if you leave the faith.

Also ..yes you can keep your religion and not convert ..but you must pay a heavy tax ...to maintain your religion. If not you can be killed as a infidel.

The goal of Islam is world conquest for Islam..nothing less. This doesnt seem to be stated in most of the posts. A religion of peace?????


The standard reply of hate speach is very olde and wolfie..it smacks of college and high school training. It also smacks of the standard political technique of trying to neuter any opposition by guilt tactics and allowing one to play through unhindered. This poor non debating technique has already been worn out by politicians and social workers here in the United States.

I am particulary intrested for someone else to explain to the rest the verses of the "Sword" or the " Sword of Islam".

Thanks to all for their posts,
Orangetom

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Remember ...first and foremost people..Islam is a religion of peace.

Nope...First and foremost, Islam is a religion of God.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Someone please tell me what the Haddith tells about the "Sword of Islam and what it means. The verses of the Sword.

Please clarify. Verses of the Sword?

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Also please tell me how a person is subject to death if you leave islam. You are now a infidel if you leave the faith.

There are numerous occasions where Muhammad just let the guy go who left Islam. There is no justification for their death.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Also ..yes you can keep your religion and not convert ..but you must pay a heavy tax ...to maintain your religion. If not you can be killed as a infidel.

Heavy nothing. Muslims have to pay zakat (charity) as well.

Frosty-Whilst the INVENTION of the compass might be reserved for the chinese, the introduction, as understood by history was done by the arabs. Not trying to split hairs, but we must understand what was truly introduced by the muslims, in that age that is otherwise known as the "dark-Ages"

The origin of the compass is shrouded in mystery. Certainly the Greeks knew about the attractive properties of magnetism in ancient times. Similarly, the Chinese were probably aware that an iron bar stroked with a lodestone acquired a directional north-south property as long as 2000 years ago. However, the precise date at which this knowledge was used to create the first magnetic compass is unknown. By the 10th century, the idea had been brought to Europe, probably from China, by Arab traders.

www.solarnavigator.net...

Originally posted by Frosty
1. Still question to debate. I believe the Moon-god basis in Islam is true and is deeper than Pagan traditions in Christianity.

2. Complete BS or just a misinterpretation. Muslims may believe in Jesus, but not Jesus Christ. That's for damn sure.

3. Never heard of that one.
... etc. etc. etc ...

All of what he said ....Agreed

and if that makes me a troll... well so be it .. at least im a dam good looking one !

Originally posted by hatchedcross

Originally posted by Frosty
Humbug.

Why not try to dispell the myth that in Islam when a marriage is failing the women must sleep with a man other than her husband before the couple can get back together? Oh, that is right, it is not a myth. Called halala.

It says that if a man and woman divorce, before they get back together after its final, she has to be married to and divorced by another before they can get back. 2:224-237 is where general divorce rules are found.

If a man and a woman divorced 3 times , then he can't remarry her before she marries another man . This is a jurisprudent ruling .

I think it aims for not taking marriage and divorce as an habitude . If he cares for her then he don't have to divorce her 3 times , and he will think millions of time before taking the divorce decision . They must clear their hesitation in marrying or divorcing . If he divorced her 10 times , he can't marry her after that forever .

Originally posted by hatchedcross

No mention of women being abused in Quran:
YUSUFALI: "And take in thy hand a little grass, and strike therewith: and break not (thy oath)." Truly We found him full of patience and constancy. How excellent in Our service! ever did he turn (to Us)!
PICKTHAL: And (it was said unto him): Take in thine hand a branch and smite therewith, and break not thine oath. Lo! We found him steadfast, how excellent a slave! Lo! he was ever turning in repentance (to his Lord).
SHAKIR: And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with It and do not break your oath; surely We found him patient; most excellent the servant! Surely he was frequent m returning (to Allah).

Where did you find this part at? I would like to see why they are being beaten. Is it for being unfaithful to their husband? Stealing? What?

This is the verse : 38:44

This is a simple explanation of the verse from this site

(And We said to him) "Stamp your foot on the ground. This stream is for you to wash with, (and) a cool and (refreshing) drink." And we gave him his family and more like them; a mercy from Us and a reminder for those with understanding. And it was said to him, "Take in your hand a bunch of (thin) sticks (like fibre) and strike (your wife) with it, so as not to break your oath." Verily, We found him steadfast, an excellent servant. Verily, he turned to Us often. (Quran 38:42-44)

Prophet Ayyub was happy at seeing his wife but after a time, he remembered his vow to punish her. But Allah revealed to him that he should strike her with a soft lash so as to literally fulfil his vow, but not to hurt her at all because she had faithfully served him in his time of trial . Allah then restored Prophet Ayyub to his former prosperity. He was blessed with many children and more followers than he had before.

Prophet Job (pbuh) vowed to punish his wife , after he was told that she did adultury and gave a piece of her hair to some people . When she returned to him he saw that she had cut a piece of her hair , so he directly vowed to punish her . But his wife told him that some people make a condition that she gave them a piece of her hair in exchange for food . He was sorrow for taking this vow [Verily, he turned to Us often.- in the verse] , so God revealed on him this verse as a solution for not breaking his oath after it was clear that his wife is innocent .

This was a lesson close the lesson from this verse :

O you who believe! if an evil-doer comes to you with a report, look carefully into it, lest you harm a people in ignorance, then be sorry for what you have done. [49:6]

And it contains something about the fiqh of vows , like if it is taken by mistake , it can be fulfilled literally like in the story .


The meaning of the exact arabic terms are :
Wa Khuth BiYadika Dighthan WaDrub Bih ...

"Dighthan" had been translated to "green branch" . But it means an amount of herbs and branches that fit in a hand's palm .

"UDrub" is translated to beat . Beat in arabic language does not necessary show hate , revenge or implying physical pain . From the rules of beating that the skin don't change color , even to red , whatever is the reason . So it is shown that the act of beating is recommended as a moral discipline (by those who are disciplined on those who need it) and not as a physical punition .


Frosty you have quoted this verse to show that Quran order to beat women , but if you have taked your time to read its explanation , you would have discovered that it doesn't relate to women beating , as much as it relates on checking about the truth before vowing .

Originally posted by Frosty
This must be one of those local, non Islamic traditions of beating Hindu passer bys to death and having mullahs chant: Kill the Kafir. So you say it is totally seperate from what Islam preaches?
[url=http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/BangaliHindu.jpg]img[url]

These are Nasibi/Deobandi/Wahabis crimes , how are you relating them to islam ?
Do I need to remember you , which people backed up and organised them ?
I'll give you a hint :

You speak of terror and Al-Qaeda. Have you forgotten who the mother and father of Al-Qaeda are? America is its father, and Israel its mother. It is the illegitimate child of these powers. You yourselves have brought it about, and you have done so in the name of Islam. Thus, the child, whose father is the arrogance of the White House, and whose mother is the executioners of Israel, and who you have named "Islam" – is known to all. The reason he was named this way is clear , as is your true nature. You brought (Al-Qaeda) about in order to bring calamity to our lives, but, thank God, it has brought calamity to yours.
memritv.org...

These same people who attacked that hindu guy , are the same who are graduating suicide bombers , that attacks muslims as well as non muslims , from their filthy religional schools . They are the same people who meet with Syed Qutb's ideology who , with Rumsfelds , belongs to the same school of thought of Leo Strauss , the spiritual leader of the neocons evil bashers .
(Review The Power of Nightmares part 1) .




[edit on 17-7-2005 by XLEGIONS]

Heh...I knew there was something suspicious when the verse number of 38:44 wasn't provided. You found it before me though...s up to you.
Frosty...guess which part of my signature applies to this situation

Originally posted by XLEGIONS

Prophet Job (pbuh) vowed to punish his wife , after he was told that she did adultury and gave a piece of her hair to some people .

This was not mentioned at all in the Quran, and in fact it was the prophet who said to his wife that he would 'flog her 100 times' for having simply talked to Shaitan. In the second to last paragraph of the link you gave it says that Allah told the prophet that she had remained faithful to him. So he beat her because Shaitan approached her and because she was faithful you say?

At the beginning of that verse it says to fight those who gird them:
Gird: To jeer or jeer at
Jeer: showing your contempt by derision
Derision: 1. Contemptuous or jeering laughter; ridicule.
A state of being derided
2. An object of ridicule; a laughingstock.

Sounds to me like it is saying that you should fight those who make-fun of you, not for just unbelieving.

That particular definition of gird did not come about until the Middle Ages. Gird during the time of the Quran being written was more akin to those who surround you and live amongst you.
www.m-w.com...

Originally posted by Frosty
So he beat her because Shaitan approached her and because she was faithful you say?

No, he beat her because he vowed to beat her. Although when he found out she had done nothing wrong, so the beating was more symbollic (using grass).

Originally posted by Frosty
That particular definition of gird did not come about until the Middle Ages. Gird during the time of the Quran being written was more akin to those who surround you and live amongst you.
www.m-w.com...

Hahahhahahahahah...
I am sure that the time that the definition came out is very relevant, specially considering that the Quran was written in english, long before the Middle ages

May the Sword of Islam rest upon the neck of the Infidel

That verse!

Orangetom.

Post Script.

Paying moneys to charity is not the same thing as being coerced into paying a tax on penalty of death. That technique is one that politicians and liberals here in the United States have already worn out ...beyond repair.

Originally posted by babloyi
No, he beat her because he vowed to beat her. Although when he found out she had done nothing wrong, so the beating was more symbollic (using grass).

That is the point. She did nothing wrong, but yet he still beat her. The only thing it is symbolic of is Islams brutality towards women.

Hahahhahahahahah...
I am sure that the time that the definition came out is very relevant, specially considering that the Quran was written in english, long before the Middle ages

Are you mocking what I wrote, as I am confused. The Middle Ages is a time period, not a place in Europe. Gird is an old Persian word -kart which is akin to 'create from the earth'. In fact, this word is used primarily in place names which is why I stated the definition more akin to "live amongst" as opposed to its older English definition of heckle. In short, it's Arabic definition is 'surround'. Gird meaning to jeer is an English word that came about in the MA. Jeer is more than likely a derivitive of gird.

Originally posted by Frosty

Are you mocking what I wrote, as I am confused. The Middle Ages is a time period, not a place in Europe. Gird is an old Persian word -kart which is akin to 'create from the earth'. In fact, this word is used primarily in place names which is why I stated the definition more akin to "live amongst" as opposed to its older English definition of heckle. In short, it's Arabic definition is 'surround'. Gird meaning to jeer is an English word that came about in the MA. Jeer is more than likely a derivitive of gird.

What you wrote was just so funny. "Gird during the time of the Quran being written was more akin to those who surround you and live amongst you". I have some interesting information for you: The Quran wasn't written in English. The time period that the word "gird" came into use in English has no relevance to the ACTUAL words used in the Quran in arabic.
Whether you take the meaning of gird to be "near you" or "jeer at you", you can't deny that those verses quoted relate to a very special scenario- when the people are at war. It doesn't apply to everyday situations

Orangetom...I was asking WHERE you got the quote from, not what the quote was.

[edit on 18-7-2005 by babloyi]

Originally posted by babloyi

What you wrote was just so funny. "Gird during the time of the Quran being written was more akin to those who surround you and live amongst you". I have some interesting information for you: The Quran wasn't written in English. The time period that the word "gird" came into use in English has no relevance to the ACTUAL words used in the Quran in arabic.
Whether you take the meaning of gird to be "near you" or "jeer at you", you can't deny that those verses quoted relate to a very special scenario- when the people are at war. It doesn't apply to everyday situations

Orangetom...I was asking WHERE you got the quote from, not what the quote was.

[edit on 18-7-2005 by babloyi]

Sorry for your ignorance but I just stated what you just typed. and I shall reiterate it again.

Gird(-gird, -jird): The origin of the word comes from an ancient Persian word -kart, meaning 'created from earth'. Gird is a suffix as well and is AN ARABIC WORD. It was introduced into the English language during the Middle Ages, but the word gird when used in the Quran does not have the same diction as its English counterpart which came into play later.

What does this mean you say? Gird is AN ARABIC WORD. It was used long before the English. In fact, when used as a suffix it is used to describe a place name: Hamishgird, Sasanjird, Farkhadhjird, etc. These names are all villages. I state again: this is why in the Quran the interpretation of the word gird is to mean 'those who live amongst you or around you'. It does not mean those who jeer you as this is an English definition which WAS NOT USED WHEN THE QURAN WAS WRITTEN.

Frosty, gird is not being used as a suffix here. It is used as a seperate word. Besides, we're not reading it in Arabic, we are reading it in English written during the Middle Ages. I would take it being used with the English definintion and not the the Arabic meaning. I'm not the best in linguistics, but this is how I see it.

I recently researched another version of the Quran with a translation of their own of gird in the text:

"[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil)."

Well, what do you know. No mention of heckling. IF you read the verses preceeding 9:123, you will se plenty of mention of 'those around you' and 'those amongst you', and never those who torment or heckle you.

3.151 Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!

The innocent Arabs must have been girded.


Islam tolerant of other religions?

5.51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors

More on jihad: hindutva.org...

2:191, And slay them wherever ye catch them
2:193, And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression
3:28, Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah.
4:84, Then fight in Allah’s cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.
4:141, And never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way (to triumph) over the believers
5:33, The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
8:12, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their fingertips off them
8:15-16, O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)!
8:60, Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
8:65, O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers
9:5, But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem.
9:3, And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage, - that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.
9:14, Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,
9:23, O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.
9:28, O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque.
9:29, Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya* with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
9:39, Unless ye go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least.
9:73, O Prophet! Strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell, - an evil refuge indeed.
9:111, Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel and the Quran
9:123, O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
22:9, (Disdainfully) bending his side, in order to lead (men) astray from the Path of Allah: for him there is disgrace in this life, and on the Day of Judgment We shall make him taste the Penalty of burning (Fire).
22:19-22; These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord), - for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water. With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins. In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them. Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), “Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!”
25:52, So obey not the disbelievers, but strive against them herewith with a great endeavor.
47:4, Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens.
48:13, And if any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!
48:29, Mohammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.
69:30-37 (The stern command will say): “Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin.”

So where does it state that all the unbelievers were girding them? No where, gird simply means 'those who live amongst you'. Deny it all you wish, you only add to your own ignorance, not mine.

No, Frosty, it doesn't say "Those who live among you". It says (as you quoted) "Those who gird you" or "Those who are near you". HOWEVER, it is (as I also mentioned) talking about a specific scenario- When the people are at war.

I never disputed the meaning of gird as what you said. It's just that your explaination was ridiculous. It's even funnier that you still don't seem to get it. The word "gird" isn't used in the Quran. I don't care what the etymology is. The word "gird" was used in a translation of the Quran. NOT in the Quran itself. The Quran was written in ARABIC. The word "gird" is in ENGLISH.

I am not the one in ignorance on this topic, Frosty. I have read the Quran. I don't collect my information from Islam-hate sites. Here's a little exercise Frosty-
Why don't you look up those verses you quoted in an online version of the Quran translation. Read the WHOLE verse, not just the part you cut and paste. Read the few lines before and after. Then you can see how much the meanings have been distorted.

Here, I'll give you an example. Frosty, are you familiar with the Bible? Here is a lil quote I got:

Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

That seems pretty damning evidence for Christianity, no? However, I know, and you (I am assuming you are Christian) know, that I took that quote out of context. Likewise with EVERY QUOTE you posted. Incredible, isn't it?

beh... apparently you are not Christian. Anyhow, I am sure you understood my example.

No, gird is an Arabic word. It has been an Arabic word since it was taken from old Farsi/Persian. It did not become an English word until 12th century and did not become to be known as 'jeer' until the 16th century in English. I will kindly put it again, gird is an Arabic word. That is how it was translated. IT was taken from Arabic and introduced into the English language, much the same way the Chinese(mandarian) word for yes pronounced sure, was taken and introduced into the English language as sure, to mean confident.

I will post this website for you to better understand and if you do not get it, so be it (translate those three!).
www.cais-soas.com...

Babloyi,
My apologies as I missed this part of your previous question.

"Orangetom...I was asking WHERE you got the quote from, not what the quote was."

I have heard this phrase for a good portion of my life and in different readings. The Sword of Islam " Ignorantly I thought it was just a slogan of some type.
Reading a book by Mark Gabriel ..he explains the meaning and history of parts of Islam and its being a religion of peace etc.

It was quite a revelation when compared to the sanitized version of what passes for news and information here in America.

Thanks for your question
Orangetom