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10 Myths About Islam

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posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 02:09 AM
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Originally posted by Frosty
"[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil)."


God ordered the believers to fight the unbelievers that are near to them , then the further then furthest and this show that muslims must defend themselves if they are afraid on the existance of islam * , if there isn't a fair Imam .
It is allowed by God to fight them for calling them to the right ** , and not for prohibiting them from being infidels . Because prohibiting contradicts Taklif (responsability) . - Tafsir al Tebyan Al Jame' li 'Ulum Al Quran by Al Tusy .


* Existance of islam is the existance of muslims , so if they are afraid on islam then they are afraid on their lifes . That means they are threatened by the unbelievers .

** Calling them to the right , that is to not transgress .


It wouldn't be logical to fight farthest enemies and leaving the nearest enemy at the borders and second the nearest enemy knows what is islam and fight it but the farthest enemy may be under illusions about islam because the person is the enemy of what he don't know .


Frosty , you quoted a verse to show that Quran encourage hostility towards unbelievers for just they are unbelievers , but if you have taked your time to read its explanation , you would have discovered that it talks about fighting the unbelievers who threatens the muslims by beginning from the nearest to the farthest , and to don't fight them because they unbelieve but to call them for not transgressing on muslims and fighting them another time .



[edit on 20-7-2005 by XLEGIONS]




posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 02:12 AM
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Originally posted by Frosty

What does this mean you say? Gird is AN ARABIC WORD. It was used long before the English. In fact, when used as a suffix it is used to describe a place name: Hamishgird, Sasanjird, Farkhadhjird, etc. These names are all villages.



Gird or Jird , or Jurd as pronounced by the peoples who live in almost desert places . It means in Arabic a land that is empty from life or not habited .



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 12:45 PM
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XLEGIONS,

You should be a politician. Your positions are so logical and reasonable.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 01:48 PM
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XLEGIONS, I don't see why you commented on me as it seems to me you did not make any distinct difference. You are right, the Muslims fought of the infidels with the same logic Hitler used to annihilate the Jews: because they were there. I have read the surrounding text and cannot come to any conclusion that the Muslims were being provoked in any manner.



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 03:52 PM
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Have you REALLY, Frosty? That seems very odd, because the entire Surah is mostly about what muslims should do in case of war. It certainly doesn't say (as you put it) that muslims should kill all unbelievers who live around them. It says that in times of war, muslims should pay more attention closer to home, to the threat at hand, then distant troubles.

About gird...whew...this could go on forever. Let me see if I can explain it:

O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

It doesn't make the slightest difference whether gird was originally an arabic word, because in THIS particular scenario, it was used in ENGLISH. If you read the ARABIC (original) version of the Quran written in the 6TH CENTURY (long before THE MIDDLE AGES, and certainly long before Persian had any effect on Arabic language), you will see that the word "gird" is NOT USED, either in Arabic OR (snort) in ENGLISH.

Orangetom, I would appreciate a Quranic (or Hadith) reference to the "Sword of Islam" quote. Something tangible, so I can understand where you are coming from.



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 08:41 PM
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May the Sword of Islam rest upon the neck of the Infidel.

Islam was and is today to be spread by the sword.

Many non muslims in ignorance do not know much history. From the begining Islam was on the move being spread by the Sword. Across to Iberia...and into France in the late 600s AD. It was finally stopped in Tours, France by Charles Martel about 732 AD. This is some 300 years before the first of the Crusades on which history tends to gloat and blame the Christians.
While I do not agree with the standard versions given for having the various Crusades...I am also not ignorant as to the events leading up to the battle of Tours in 732 AD in the spreading of Islam by the Sword.
This is a view of history totally ignored by most historians the media and politicians today in favor of the guilt trip attempted to be put on Westerners/Christians by someone out there counting on the ignorance of the public. And they are quite correct..most fo the public is very ignorant. Especially Westerners.

Islams objective is World conquest for Islam. Nothing less. Islam is faithful to no man made government or country. This is obvious by the various events that have happened recently in Europe..particulary in France and recently in the Netherlands. England too. Amercans are dumber than dirt about what is coming ..even after 9/11 most of them are asleep at the wheel and our politicians and media are working night and day to keep us that way until events occur as needed. Much of this news and view is suppressed deliberately.

No matter what is quoted in this room as this verse or that verse...in the end it will not matter. The history will bear this out ...Islam's objective is world conquest for Islam. Nothing less.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 11:05 PM
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Thank you orangetom1999. Am I incorrect in knowing that the Spanish and Portugese were not 'jeering' the Muslims? IF it were not for Charles Martel of Austrasia, many of us would be sleeping in mud houses, with camels instead of cars, and not debating the word 'gird'. By the way, is Allah English or Arabic?


Has anyone here seen El Cid starring Charleton Heston? And I don't think the Quran was written in 6th century.



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 06:14 AM
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No, Frosty...if the Muslims had defeated Charles Martel, the world would be in a much more advanced state in terms of knowledge and learning today. But I am sure you'd take a 60s movie over historical fact any day. When do you think the Quran was written, then?

Allah is now both in Arabic AND English. What of it?



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 07:57 AM
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5) Muslims are violent, terrorist extremists

Terrorism cannot be justified under any valid interpretation of the Islamic faith. The entire Qur'an, taken as a complete text, gives a message of hope, faith, and peace to a faith community of one billion people.


I've started to notice that these fluffy statements always tend to have some such qualifier. I'm quite prepared to believe that Islam preaches peace among Moslems. But the question is how they treat non-Moslems.

The statement leaves some 5 billion other people. What does the Koran say about them, if they resist Moslem demands?



7) Islam promotes "jihad" to spread Islam by the sword and kill all unbelievers

The word Jihad stems from an Arabic word which means "to strive." Other related words include "effort," "labor," and "fatigue." Essentially Jihad is an effort to practice religion in the face of oppression and persecution.


It is troubling that this does not mention that Islam was spread from Arabia by the sword in the 7th century. How else did the Moslem countries get that way?

All the best,

Roger Pearse



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by babloyi
No, Frosty...if the Muslims had defeated Charles Martel, the world would be in a much more advanced state in terms of knowledge and learning today. But I am sure you'd take a 60s movie over historical fact any day. When do you think the Quran was written, then?


Much more advanced? Stop drinking the water, there is something in it. Name one prominent school in an Islamic country off the top of your head. Any research groups from Islamic countries that help improve our daily lives? No, there are no non-religous schools of known prominence in that part of the world. No one in their right mind is flocking to Saudi arabia, Egypt, or Iran to study the way others do Oxford, Princeton, and UC Berkly.

Which historical fact are you talking about?




Allah is now both in Arabic AND English. What of it?

It is originally an Arabic word like gird. I have dictionary in which I looked and said 12thC Arabic. Sure it is used by people who speak English. My point is not everything was given a new name or new deinition once the Quran was translated, such as the word gird.

[edit on 21-7-2005 by Frosty]



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by Frosty
Which historical fact are you talking about?


I believe he is refering to the fact that for hundreds of years the Catholic Church suppressed any ideas with a vengance. People were tortured and killed for saying the earth is round. Many ideas took so much longer to become mainstream because of this.



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 05:44 PM
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Originally posted by hatchedcross

Originally posted by Frosty
Which historical fact are you talking about?


I believe he is refering to the fact that for hundreds of years the Catholic Church suppressed any ideas with a vengance. People were tortured and killed for saying the earth is round. Many ideas took so much longer to become mainstream because of this.


If this is true bablyoi, stop changing the subject. we talking about muslims and why their religion is violent. Nice try though.



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 06:01 PM
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Stop changing the subject? That's a quirky comeback. I didn't bring it up. YOU did, with your "Oh, Charles Martel, Thank you!".

I'm sorry to say, Frosty, you are not very well versed in Islamic history. You're still digesting the same **** that the Middle age Christian propagandist priest spewed out.

I am still awed that you don't get it about "gird". You say yourself that it is from 12th Century Arabic. You think the Quran was written in the 12th century, Frosty? Here, let me spell it out for you. "GIRD" (even the arabic word) IS NOT USED ANYWHERE IN THE QURAN. So it couldn't have been translated "using the same word".



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 06:04 PM
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Some of you guy are a real work of art in your debating technique.

I dont claim to be a work of art but I know some things about history which are very plain but not taught to day for some strange reasons.

What one posters claims about the Catholic church and its burnings and killings is quite true. What disturbs me is that this technique is also used by the Muslims in thier conquerings until they ran across a more radical killer than they in Midevil Europe. His name was Count Dracul. Sometimes known as Vlad the Impailer.

What I know about Roman Catholicism is that it is exactly the same system as Islam ..but with psuedo Christian appearences. Roman Catholicism is like Islam entirely supportive of the Feudal Monarchys to maintain its power base and keep the people in line. Roman Catholicism like Islam is Nicolaitianism ..which the Lord says he Hates. A Clergy seperate from the Laity. This is its feudal nature.

Once you understand this ..you can clearly see why through out most of the world...Roman Catholicism never had much of a middle class in the social structures it controlled..it was mostly poor and upper crust peoples. You see this today. The only places you see any difference is where these cultures come into heavy contact with Western cultures and technologys.

What most peoples miss about the greatness of Islam...and all the hoopla often pandered to others in ignorance..is that Islamic nations often go outside their borders for any progress and the technology to maintain it. They are not self sustaining. Shipping. Oil production , computer technology, construction of all kinds. And you people want to give Islam a free pass based on this psuedo greatness. You have to be kidding ?. They dont even produce thier own weapons. What on earth are you people thinking.??
What they can produce..is dischord among a very ignorant and brainwashed bunch of westerners.

Sit in this room and let these people bog you down in rhetoric about what verse is this and that ..but never look at the real history. Stay in the classrooms where this kind of ignorance is given a free pass for political reasons.
What Islam will do if allowed is return the world to the middle ages..and religious feudalism..just as was done in the so called great days of Islam and the Catholic church. They were both feudal religious systems with the same poor baggage.

One thing is clear to those who know the history. Europe held to much of this baggage of feudal connections to religion. And Europe was kept downtrodeen for thousands of years.
Only with the breakaway from Roman Catholicism did progress happen in Europe and mostly in North Germany, The lowland nations, and England. These are the areas where within two hundred years of this breakway ...technology and social progress began to take place. No where else...Russia is a textbook historical example of no where else. Religion is the sole determiner of a nations economic prosperity. Not politicians and education. The right religion ..obviously.

What the Founders of American wanted to do is break away from this system which was and still is so prevalent in the world. They managed to lay the ground work for just such a break away but our politicians are financing a educational system ..which if we as people are not made awares...will return us to this type of whoredom.
Islam is not seperation of church and state...it is the merger of church and state..the very system that kept people downtrodden for milleniums.
Dont ever be ignorant enough to give this one a free pass...no matter how holy they try to make it .
Islamic nations and beliefs will not make the world a better place or promote progress..one look at any Islamic nation today will make this clear. All their progress came from Western nations. Even their very arms and weapons.

Post script..I am not necessarily picking on Islamic beliefs..you can extend this to any religion or region ...look at the economic status of the nation and then look at the religions back through history. Asia ...Central and South America, Africa et all. It is the same fingerprint. It is just that so few teach this view in favor of the standard default settings that allow some to play through on the ignorance of others.
Do not be ignorant of history..real history.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 06:06 PM
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I am Muslim and I am glad that someone took the time to post an article such as this.. One of the reasons why Islam has gotten the reputation that it has is not due to propaganda or the media, but due to lack of understanding.. If more people knew that terrorism was totally condemned in the Qu'ran then they would understand that not all Muslims promote terrorist groups..



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 06:58 PM
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Originally posted by babloyi
Stop changing the subject? That's a quirky comeback. I didn't bring it up. YOU did, with your "Oh, Charles Martel, Thank you!".

I'm sorry to say, Frosty, you are not very well versed in Islamic history. You're still digesting the same **** that the Middle age Christian propagandist priest spewed out.

I am still awed that you don't get it about "gird". You say yourself that it is from 12th Century Arabic. You think the Quran was written in the 12th century, Frosty? Here, let me spell it out for you. "GIRD" (even the arabic word) IS NOT USED ANYWHERE IN THE QURAN. So it couldn't have been translated "using the same word".


So now the Moorish invasions are propoganda?:bash: I should be thanking Charles Martel.

Gird does not mean to jeer for the fiftieth time. What do you not understand?



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 07:43 PM
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Jago,

Thank you for your post. I am well aware that the majority of Muslims do not approve of this terrorist tendency of the more Radical elements within the religion.
The majority of Muslims are just trying to make a living for themselves and their familys. I have no problems with this from any peoples.
About ten percent of Muslims or less are of the radical type. The problems occur when this ten percent or less cause problems in the world they also cause problems for the other 90 per cent of Muslims and the rest of the world. How many is ten percent of a billion people???


I do not wish Ill will upon Muslims. I am just more aware of the history and what it means than are many out here.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 04:56 AM
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Sorry...I clicked QUOTE instead of POST

[edit on 22-7-2005 by babloyi]



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 05:09 AM
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Hey Orangetom...good to hear that you give this topic much thought. But that is what I was referring to as propaganda. The early Muslim method was NOT one of burning and killing. The early Muslims were INCREDIBLEY tolerant.

Take Syria for example. Before muslim rule, the Zoroastans(sp) used to greatly persecute the Syrian Christians. When the Muslims came into control, the Christians were given much more freedom. In fact, it was IN Syria, UNDER Muslim rule, that the first anti-islamic propagandist, a Christian called Peter the Syrian (I think) came about. He wrote a great number of books against Islam, which he considered a Christian Heresy. The very fact that the Muslims allowed such a person to so openly denigrate Islam shows how tolerant they were. Compare this with a man being hanged because he said that he thought the Moorish people were OK.

You seem to misunderstand the role of Islam in everyday life. There is no "Separation of Church and State". There doesn't even have to be a "Church" for Islam (In fact, there IS no central Muslim Authority). Islam is solely meant to survive in the hearts and minds of it's people. There is no "The Church/Islamic leader MUST be the State leader as well". Islam is a way of life. It finds it's way into EVERYTHING, even to some extent politics. But only as a means to set down certain rules and customs.

The early conquests weren't a method of "Spreading Islam". They were in response to atrocities committed by the countries. For example, when the Muslims sent a (completely peaceful) ambassador to the Romans to give them the message of Islam, he was murdered by some lowly general after his audience with the king. When the Muslims asked for the murderer to be brought to justice, instead of doing so (or even offering a compromise), they made it a matter of of the whole country, and attacked the muslims.

The reason for the current lack of "Academic Mindset" in many Muslim countries is not because of Islamic ideology. It is just a twist of fate. The later muslim rulers became more corrupt, intent of solidifying their harems, and palaces instead of focusing on learning, thus becoming weaker. This resulted in their loss of victories and their immense knowledge base from such events as the burning of the library in Al-Andalus (Spain), the attack of the Turks, and later the Mongols, etc.

BTW, orangetom, the purpose of Islam is not world domination. I'd post you verses explaining, but you don't seem to want that
. The Quran is very clear that God put the diversity of people, culture and method of God-worship there for a reason.

Frosty, look over my previous posts. Where did I say that gird (used in that translation) means jeer? What I don't understand is when you think the Quran was written. You say it was not written in the 6th-7th centuries?

[edit on 22-7-2005 by babloyi]

[edit on 22-7-2005 by babloyi]



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 11:46 AM
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Thanks for your post. I appreciate the history of early Islam and its tolerance.
I am not focused so much on yesteryear as I am today and events surrounding Islam today. We often have this problem here in America where the Intellectuals try to use some example from the past to explain what is happening to day but hey remain in the past and conduct themselves as if it is the same today ..it is not.

I agree with you ..that there is no seperation of church and state. In this you are correct. No problems here with your position.

As to world conquest for Islam. This is definitely the goal as defined by modern Islamic leaders. Not the leaders of the past history of tolerance.Mawlana Abul Ala Mawdudi. " Islam is not a normal religion like the other religions of the world. Muslim nations are not normal nations. Muslim nations are very special because they have a command from Allah to rule the entire world and to be over every nation in the world."
This is a quote among many in a book by Mark Gabriel his western name..who is a graduate of Al Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt where many of the more radical leaders and Imams were trained or taught Islamic studies. Mark Gabriel holds the muslim equivalent of a PHD in Islamic studies. Furthermore he quotes that "Islams goal is to destroy any government made by man." " A way of life that must replace all other ways of life."
Do not concern yourself...most Americans are asleep at the wheel on this both because of our media, politicians and also our phoney educational systems.

The problem which will soon be encountered is that this cannot be hidden much longer. Not because of any western influences but because the face of radical Islam will not permit it. Radical Islam is about 10 percent of Islam but it is the most vocal and influential of the Islamic groups. It is the group which is getting the most headlines.
However dont worry .even with events in England today..most are asleep. The events in the Netherlands with the killing of the decendent of Van Gogh should have awakened many but it did not.
Events are going to be a huge problem for muslims in the future..westerners also. Not because the bulk of Muslims want it ..but because the 10 percent of radical Muslims will not permit anything else.
Westerners are just dumber than dirt about this. We are way to stupid to see what is coming

I agree with you about the "lack of academic mindset " and the reasons for it. This is very similar to what happened in the Roman Catholic areas of the world. The initial doctrine was hijacked, if it ever was, by those looking for power , control, and wealth. This left those not on the inside poor and downtrodden. You can tell this in Roman Catholic areas today. The fingerprint of the wealthy and well off and then the poor. Very little in between. This is the same in many Islamic nations with the exception of those who have come into contact with western nations. In this fingerprint Islam and Roman Catholicism today are very similar.

I must get about some labors which must be done here. Thanks ,Babyloi , for your post. I will continue later.

Orangetom







 
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