Indian Navy want F-35, not the Super Hornets that were offered

Originally posted by Stealth Spy

Originally posted by Blackout
Earth to Stealth Spy. Do you copy?

Stealth Spy (in the upper atmosphere) to distant star : I always thought India was different from Iraq

You totally missed the point didn't you?

Maybe I cant match my posts to your's with MS paint images , but i suggest you take a look at raj's posts

chit-chat apart, check out this great article

(sorry for posting the entire thing, because the link is inconsistant sometimes)

Indian Navy Sea Harrier (the White tiger)vs. Rafale, Sea Harrier vs. MiG-29

Since induction, the Indian Navy had flown the Sea Harrier against all of the IAF's aircraft and achieved good results, especially against the Mirage-2000. INAS 300 had two opportunities to test their capabilities against the French Flotille 12F operating the vaunted Rafale-M during the "Varuna" exercises in 2002 and 2004. Most of the missions would involve the Sea Harrier playing as the attacker against a fleet of ships defended by Rafales operating from the Charles-de-gaulle. The initial outcome of these missions was somewhat predictable - the Rafales would easily pick up the Sea Harriers almost as soon as they took off from the Viraat, and call for a BVR-kill, ending the mission ! When these BVR calls became rather frustrating, missions were switched to WVR-combat which surprisingly proved to be the Rafale's undoing! Close-in, the Harriers were mostly not even visually picked up by the French pilots who hadn't noticed them until it was too late, also being unable to outturn their opponents for the most part. However, it was concluded that this was due to the precedence assigned to BVR by the French and their comparative lack of training for WVR engagements and not much due to the Sea Harrier itself. Pilots of INAS-300 concluded that had they piloted Rafales instead, they would be easily able to make mincemeat out of the Harrier under any condition. One would have noticed that the events and outcome of these exercises were almost similar to the performance of IAF Mirage-2000s against French Mirage-2000s of 1/12 ‘Cambresis’ during the joint exercise 'Garuda' in February 2003.

In 2005, the White Tigers flew to the IAF's AFB in Jamnagar, in order to take on the MiG-29s of No.28 'The First Supersonics' and No.47 'Black Archers' squadrons. Some firing practice against targets towed by the MiG-23MFs of the No.224 'Warlords' squadron, was also carried out. Comparison of turn performance is also a regular feature of DACT, where the ground controller assigns a specific speed for both aircraft and tells them to start turning. At lower speeds, the Sea Harrier was only marginally lower in sustained turn rate but beyond Mach 0.7, became quite hopeless against the MiG-29. What ensued during actual DACT was set to be a massacre - the MiG-29's superb N019 BVR radar in addition to their outstanding maneuverability besides the HMS, proved more than a handful. In BVR, the Fulcrums could easily lock-on to the Harriers and end the engagement within seconds. Unlike the Harrier, the MiG-29 was capable of sustained +9G performance and was easily able to outturn the former in most regimes. The only chance that a Harrier had against the MiG-29 was to lure the latter into a dive and use thrust-vectored control to break out of the path. However, since each aircraft and squadrons do have their own set of unique advantages and disadvantages catering to specific types of engagements, things did not always go in the MiG-29's favor. The MiG-29 for instance, has a relatively large planform and smoky RD-33s which allowed the Harrier pilots to visually acquire them out to nearly 27 km. In turn, the Sea harrier is itself, extremely difficult to notice and visually acquire, and was often able to get the jump on the Fulcrum. In spite of the MiG-29 technically outclassing the Sea Harrier, a series of successes lead INAS-300 to conclude that the MiG-29 pilots were 'Blind as bats', much to the frustration of the latter ! This was somewhat reminiscent of the first kill by Flt. Lt. Paul Barton over Falklands where the bogey never even noticed the Harrier until it was too late. Despite the superiority of the MiG-29, the White Tigers were very happy with their performance and it was ironic that the aptly titled 'First Supersonics', the very first IAF squadron to operate a supersonic aircraft (the MiG-21F-13), couldn't always get the edge on their subsonic counterparts. Coincidentally, the next fighter type to be operated by the Navy will be the MiG-29K. The exercise also served as an opportunity to test and prove the effectiveness of the new 'Ghost Gray' Sea Harrier camouflage scheme.

The Viraat's and INAS-300's biggest success was against the IAF during a recent full-scale exercise code-named 'TROPEX', where the latter was severely mauled. In one incident, a highly efficient intercept led to the stealthy Sea Harriers catching nothing less than three Mirage-2000s hosed up to an Il-78MKI in an in-flight refueling formation ! What must have been a highly embarrassing situation for the IAF could potentially represent an unimaginable loss of an entire IFR formation due to the opponent's superior tactics and smarter procedures. Ironically, the IAF's own evaluation of the Sea Harrier in the 70s, was that the thrust-vectored aircraft had no chance against a supersonic counterpart. TROPEX also included interception and engagements against low-flying UAVs.

link

Hmmmm..the old war horse still has life left

but India are terminating their relationship with the Sea Harrier in 2009...retirement


and check out this GREAT photo essay on the 2nd Indian aircraft carrier, INS Viraat (superb hi-res pics; harriers look awesome )

Part -1
Part -2
Part-3
Part-4
Part-5

Please take time to see them; REAL EYE CANDY PICS(esp. towards the end)


[edit on 14-7-2005 by Stealth Spy]

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Maybe I cant match my posts to your's with MS paint images

, but i suggest you take a look at raj's posts

The comparison to Iraq was only to show you how ridiculous your dreaming was. You posted many requirements India would need to meet (some of which are HIGHLY UNLIKELY to be happening) before it can get the F35, so I posted some crap about Iraq to wake you up.

And I have read raj's posts. I actually have the patience to listen from his perspective because he isn't ignorant and delusional that spams me with 10 sources to try and convince me of how great India is. Perhaps you can learn from this?

Anyway, I've had it with these extremists. There's a fine line between patriotism and extremism.

OK guys let's chill before it gets out of hand.

Originally posted by intrepid
OK guys let's chill before it gets out of hand.

Yes, sir!

and which side of that line are you on??

he's not even in the frame

ALRIGHT chit-chat-siniping over (atleast from my side)

here's a GREAT analysis of the topic at hand; this link too is inconsistant and the site stops working on several ocassions, so here's are some portions of the article :

In a significant move the Indian Navy categorically stated its preference for Lockheed Martin’s F-35 JSF (Joint Strike Fighter) over Boeing’s F/A-18E/F ‘Super Hornet’ offered by the United States. Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Arun Prakash, himself a distinguished naval fighter pilot, expressed as much while speaking to reporters after commissioning INS Beas, a Brahmaputra Class Guided Missile armed Helicopter carrying Frigate (FFGH) at the Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers Ltd, Kolkata on July 11, 2005.

The CNS cited the inherent incompatibility of the Super Hornet with the aircraft carriers of the Indian Navy, which incorporate the concept of Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery (STOBAR), in absence of the steam catapults necessary for the Super Hornets for take-off. On the other hand, the Indian aircraft carriers utilise the “ski-jump” that forms an integral part of the STOBAR operations. The Short Take-Off and Vertical Landing (STOVL) version of the F-35B being developed for United States Marine Corps (USMC) can utilise the ski-jump for take-off and would be more suitable for the Indian Navy.

If the F-35 enters service with Indian Navy the CNS is perhaps well aware of the “technological leap” that the IN and Indian aerospace industry would obtain, along with transfer of technology for license manufacture. Incidentally, the top brass of the US Aerospace Giant Lockheed Martin had expressed a wish to see the F-35 flying in Indian Air Force (IAF) colours –– indeed during Aero India 2005 the Company had depicted F-35 models in IAF colours as a promotional measure. Alongside other variants, the F-35B STOVL variant is projected to be developed into an advanced attack aircraft with outstanding Suppression of Enemy Air Defence (SEAD) capability, to be operated from multiple types of naval platforms ranging from medium attack carriers, British Invincible Class STOVL carriers, Helicopter carrying Landing Platforms (LPH) and even from forward battlefield areas or further interior of beachheads.

Prominent weapons to be carried internally include Global Positioning System (GPS)-guided Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM), Joint Stand-Off Weapon (JSOW), Paveway II Laser Guided Bombs (LBG) and AIM-120C AMRAAM Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile (BVRAAM). Internal JDAM carrying capability of F-35B STOVL is limited two 450-kg loads. However the point of concern is the possible restriction of weapon loads in internal bays to US made weapons only. The Indian Navy will do well to clarify this particular aspect.

For IN the “prize catch” will be the F-35’s sensors and the heart of it is the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-81 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, based on the AN/APG-77 AESA set developed for the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor.

Since US media reports indicate Bush administration’s clearance for possible transfer of sensitive radar technology like Raytheon AN/APG-79 AESA radar of the Super Hornet to India, diplomatic bargaining to secure the AN/APG-81 AESA radar may well bear fruit. Higher echelons of present US administration have repeatedly expressed their desire to witness the emergence of India into a robust continental military power.

Indo–US cooperation is at an all time high after “9/11” with all branches of the Armed Forces of both the nations striving hard to attain inter-operability and joint-cooperation on a grand scale. The Indian Navy was perhaps the first to adapt radically to the changed circumstances, as it was the only service that has long maintained “active foreign military links” by conducting extensive maritime exercises with foreign navies. It was also becoming apparent that it is in the naval sphere where active Indo-US military cooperation robustly lies in keeping Sea Lines Of Communication (SLOC) open in vast stretches of the Indian Ocean. Already the United States plans to have an Indian Navy official on the staff of the United States Pacific Command acting as liaison officer, to bring in more cooperation and understanding between the two armed forces in fighting global terror, as disclosed a few months ago by Admiral William Fallon, Commander of the United States Pacific Command. In this respect Admiral Fallon stated that he had held discussions on this issue with Indian Navy’s Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Arun Prakash during his visit to Washington.

Under such a backdrop the Indian Navy may gradually induct a considerable number of United States origin military equipment and systems as a common inventory will be highly desirable for both the nations in terms of joint-exercises and inter-operability. Certain critical naval systems are already on offer that range from P-3C Orion Long Range Maritime Patrol (LRMP) platforms, ship-borne SH-60 Sea Hawk Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) helicopters to second-hand yet capable Spruance Class Guided missile armed Destroyers (DDG) and Oliver Hazard Perry Class Guided missile armed Frigates (FFG).

Yet how United States reacts to the bold assertion of Admiral Arun Prakash in “selecting” the fifth-generation F-35 JSF needs to be seen. Certainly the US is well aware of the fact that in terms of possession of certain military hardware and operating philosophy and practice India has touched the developed world and is no longer regarded as a third-world military power

full article/analysis ....

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
he's not even in the frame

ALRIGHT chit-chat-siniping over (atleast from my side)

That's right, leave in one last remark before declaring that you're ending the argument .

I'm not even going to flame you or try to get the last word. I'm done with this; I'm not trying to bring myself down to your level.

That MCA looks lacking in all the aspects India wishes to achieve. And I think the U.S. has the right to deny them access to a brand new, technologically advanced weapons system like the F-35. I wouldn't trust them with it either. A few years later North Korea would suddenly have something remarkably similar.

Originally posted by CyberianHusky
That MCA looks lacking in all the aspects India wishes to achieve.

I dont know what you are trying to say..

And I think the U.S. has the right to deny them access to a brand new, technologically advanced weapons system like the F-35.

Sure they do;

A few years later North Korea would suddenly have something remarkably similar.

dont be riddiculous...India has no contact with North Korea whatsoever.

Perhaps you mistook India for Pakistan...it is Pakistan who have sold their nuke info (which they themselves got from China) to NK in exchange for NK's ballistic missile tech.
www.globalsecurity.org...
www.globalsecurity.org...
www.missilethreat.com...
www.missilethreat.com...


And for the record, just a few hours back, India and the US issued a joint statement from the whitehouse about the US giving India the know how of hi-technology & the latest nuclear tech for civilian use..how do you like that..and check out the contents of my first post as well

Originally posted by CyberianHusky
That MCA looks lacking in all the aspects India wishes to achieve.
Pardon? And by looking at outdated artwork created from a verbal design concept, you can make this judgement... how?

And I think the U.S. has the right to deny them access to a brand new, technologically advanced weapons system like the F-35.
They certainly have the right to.

However, you're missing they already voluntarily decided to forgo it by offering design participation in the F-35 program. Please, actually read the thread before posting!

I wouldn't trust them with it either. A few years later North Korea would suddenly have something remarkably similar.
Sorry, but that statement is so brazenly beyond ludicrous, its patently stupid.

I don't know whether to be offended by such an ignorant statement, or should merely feel sorry for you for being so ignorant.

-Raj

It's obvious to anyone who has any knowledge of modern combat aircraft that the artist's presentation of their concept lacks some of the most basic elements needed to accomplish successful stealth characteristics. The fuselage, for starters, resembles something from second generation fighters. And quite honestly I don't think they would be able pull off a tail-less design in the suggested development timeline since they have no access to the only operational example of such a concept, that of course being the B-2. Frankly, they are aiming way too high for a self-developed jet.

And don't even get me started on India's trustworthiness. Do you honestly believe they aren't peddling weapons system technology on the black market? Please tell me you aren't that naive. If superpowers are doing it then I think it's a safe bet that lesser powers are as well.

By the way, talking down to people isn't a good look on you.

Wow. I wish I can do a x 10 here.

Originally posted by CyberianHusky
It's obvious to anyone who has any knowledge of modern combat aircraft that the artist's presentation of their concept lacks some of the most basic elements needed to accomplish successful stealth characteristics.

And who said anything about the accuracy of the artist's impression? The only things confirmed for the MCA are as follows: it will use a modified compound-delta configuration found on the LCA, which by its intrinsic design, does not require a tail. Secondly, it will have two modified Kaveri, virtual 3-D thrust-vectoring engines. Thirdly, it will have internal weapons bays. Forthly, it will have over 90% composites in structure, which is well achievable, considering that the LCA, when it enters production in 2010, will have the largest %age composite composition of any weaponized aircraft.

That is all confirmed about the aircraft. This particular artist's impression is over 15 years old, when the MCA was in the very begining of its conceptual stage, and it was penned by a reporter who knew someone who knew someone in DRDO.

And quite honestly I don't think they would be able pull off a tail-less design in the suggested development timeline since they have no access to the only operational example of such a concept, that of course being the B-2.

And its obvious by such a statement that you, yourself, have no knowlage of modern aircraft design.

Frankly, they are aiming way too high for a self-developed jet.

There is no doubts it will be an ambitious project. However, by the time this gets into the design stage, India will have collaborated with Russia on the PAK-FA fighter. This, plus the experience from the LCA program (which, really, this is an extention of), plus the progress in scientific and advanced production capability of India in the next 10-15 years (this sector had a sustained rate of growth over the last 3 years of some 80%), then I do believe that for all its ambitiousness, it is well achiveable


And don't even get me started on India's trustworthiness.

Oh no, please, do start up. You've been a veritable fountain of factual accuracy and reasoned analysis fo far. Why stop?


By the way, talking down to people isn't a good look on you.

I do not entertain knee-jerk arrogance and baseless bluster.

- Raj

Originally posted by CyberianHusky

And don't even get me started on India's trustworthiness. Do you honestly believe they aren't peddling weapons system technology on the black market? Please tell me you aren't that naive. If superpowers are doing it then I think it's a safe bet that lesser powers are as well.

By the way, talking down to people isn't a good look on you.

You're american I gather.. You're doubtful about India's proliferation activities..

I'll have you know that India is tha most non-proliferative state
(maybe along with France and the UK) on the planet..
Every other nuclear power has transferred nukes/nuke tech to someone else on this planet..
There's a difference between naivity and pure ignorance of current affairs...
Get up to speed with the REAL scenario out there today.. And then make claims backed with some evidence..

And also while you're at it.. I suggest you watch a recording of Mr Manmohan Singh's (India PM) address to a joint session of congress..This happened yesterday(19th July)..
And then make your judgement on India as a responsible or irresponsible nuclear state.. I think your country (the US) has already more or less made that judgement..

Oh hell, I admit I went somewhat blindly into this one without reading all the way through. It was my mistake. I still contend that the U.S. should be careful about sharing certain technology. Look how long it took for us to license out the F-16. And even then it was essentially a different aircraft with the same basic airframe. The current world climate makes it difficult to know who you can trust with your brand new hardware, know what I mean?

understandable... Many in India are also wary abt this new NSSP intiative..

(next steps in strategic partnership)

india is a third world country they shouldnt be buying JSF they should buy Russian until they are rich enough.

I woudn't like it if we offered India the F-35...but I also wouldn't be suprised.

What arn't we offering them?

The current government thought is simple.....The US is not growing any longer (land not people), and the European Union keeps on adding other countries, China's military keeps on getting beefed up, So whats the US's answer: INDIA, They have a booming economy, not our enemy, not communist, would give the US a strong foothold in in the east, and at there current pace are looking to become a future power...hence why they want to make good buddies with them now.

Originally posted by drfunk
india is a third world country they shouldnt be buying JSF they should buy Russian until they are rich enough.

Third world....care to tell me what the other two world's are ??

Not rich enough to buy stuff ....look at the 2005 purchasing power charts.
and defence budget = 19.5 billion $ ....and still only 3.5% of the GDP

Rank | Country| Purchasing power (in millions of International dollars)

1 United States 12,332,296 (12.3 trillion)
2 People's Republic of China 8,091,851 (8 trillion)
3 Japan 4,009,327 (4 trillion)
4 India 3,602,894 (3.6 trillion)
5 Germany 2,498,471
6 United Kingdom 1,825,837
7 France 1,811,561
8 Italy 1,694,706
9 Russia 1,585,478

link

Ahead of the UK that plans to buy hundreds of F-35's ....

And why do you suppose that countries that are'nt well off should'nt buy American weaponry and stick to Russian weaponry ??

sure 19% of India lives inpoverty, but look on the bright side, 81%(~900 million people) dont and poverty is falling faster than ever before.

[edit on 22-7-2005 by Stealth Spy]