Originally posted by Realist05
Hi all, thought I'd drag my Neanderthal knuckles back to the keyboard to spout some more cold-war nonsense.
Glad to took my comments as I'd ment them to be taken, cheeky but non-insulting nonetheless
First of all, do not discount the close relationship that India has with Russia; there still seems to be a great deal of animosity in that country
toward the west and at America in particular. Cooperation with India will continue as India fields Migs and Sukhoi products throughout it's
airfields. There is a natural carryover from this to diplomacy.
Well, I agree with you. If anything India-Russian cooperation will increase with joint projects. First the MKI, then Brahmos, then PAK-FA, GLONASS,
etc., with each project, more and more Indian cooperation and expertise goes into it then just simple funding, and more and more the relationship
grows to weapons of more strategic importance.
Russia realizes it can't keep arming CHina forever. Like India, China will eventualyl become self-sufficiant in arms, and unlike India, which Russia
enjoys probably the closest non-CIS relationship, China is at best muted hostile. China will eventually exert more and more economic and strategic
clout -- and demographic, with a huge population compared to Russia.
Russia can either go economically subserviant to China, and the more they sell them brings them that much closer, or they can throw in with the
hyperpower, basically finally surrendering after 60 years of rivalry, and again, be economically subserviant, and then economically impotent as
Western jobs and economies strips Russia of her true economic asset -- her scientists.
Then the third optino is throwing in with India, the only rival to China in Asia, and really the only other country with the capability to match
China's potential man for man, dollar for dollar, culture for culture, PhD for PhD in the future. I mean, really, the economic difference between
Indai and China is a mere 15 years. 15 years! That's diddly squat when you are talking about civlizations millenia old!
India and Russia have no stratetgic or tactical cross swords, and both like and respect each other. It is in Russia's interest to wean India away
from American friendship, and build her up against China. Unlike with CHina, Russia has no qualm about getting involved with/cooperating on things of
the utmost strategic importance to India. The whole world aside, Russia will always make sure to complement Indian weaknesses with her own strengths
to see that India maintains that technical edge over Chinese numerical superiority that stalemates the two countries, and prevents CHina from exerting
influence over SE, Central, South Asia/IOR and Middle East.
Russia also knows that India's going to cozy up to someone, and it would rather have that with her, rather htan the USA. This would mean, for every
ideological/politica/cultural plus point America has with India, Russia will counter with an economic/strategic.
Interesting times ahead... Great Game pt. 2
Second, as I believe someone like Seeker has pointed out, nations do not have perminant friends, just perminant interests. Although both countries
have a shared British inheretence of democratic institutions and burgeoning trade ties, I don't think the US is ready to cede even parity with India
over control of the sea, even if it is called the Indian ocean.
In the predictable future, barring act of God, US will never cede that power. The US is called a hyperpower for a reason. A single USN carrier battle
group can take out the rest of the world's navies combined.
However, with a rise of China, threatening, like Japand did in the 30s, 'America's ocean', the Pacific, and the US herself, USN will be very busy
bottling up China. I honestly think this 'war on terror' will keep going until non-petroleum energy resoruces are developed, and the Mid East gets
no funding, until that time America will be scattered around the world, putting out little fires, here and there, while keeping that pistol pointed at
America knows it cannot project power everywhere at once. It must have allies it can depend on. Hence we do not see them ceding any ocean to anyone,
especialyl one as important as the IO, but they will need to accomodate the growing power of nations. This is done by makign sure that their
interests, and the othercountries interests, match up and are in harmony.
There is a reason US and India are exercising and developing inter-operability like there's no friggin tomorrow. Because both see the writing on the
wall wrt CHina, and India knows that it must rely on US to bottle up China so they don't operate in the IOR, and US knows that it must rely on India
to protect American shipping and the shipping lanes in general in the IOR, and act as a strategic reserve to any Chinese breakout of hte S China sea.
Hence, there is a harmony of interests. Sure, there are no such things as perminant freinds, but dude! There is nothing but pure, sweet convergance of
interests between India and America in the IOR ... and what a convergance that is!
We see it today, as I said before, when India escorted all US/Allied non-combat warships, and merchies while all USN war assets in the ME/IOR made a
beeline to bomb the hell out of Afghanistan post 9/11
Imagine that, but on a much bigger scale in 20 years, when America must pull ships from other places to a flare up in the wildfire (China) while also
containing brushfires (WOT)
As to my Bhramin remark, I apologise if that causes you offence. I come from a background of listening to Indian diplomats in New York (UN) in the
80's along with staff, who made careers out of criticising my country with almost every breath, while holding out the great virtues of the Congress
Party and their magnificent achievements on the sub-continent while all sorts of bad stuff was going down there. Back in my dinosaur days.
Well, the cold war was a wierd time for everyone (is that an understatement or what!) America wasn't exactly a saint wrt India either. Arming the
hell out of Pakistan and turning a blind eye while Pakistan unleashed 4 wars and unholy hell on India with terrorism that killed over 80,000 Indian
civilians in the last decade... until those same groups started targetting America...
But the point is not to dwell on the past. There is incredible bitterness on both sides on things happened. But there is incredible potential in the
years hence, and the biggest thing that happened in the last 10 years in India-US relations, by FAR, is that both sides are willing to let sleeping
dogs lie, repress those bitter memories, and start afresh in a new world.
That is what is happening.
But regarding your statement about hostility, there is way too much of that in this forum. I find there are a whole grip of cold warriors on
bothsides, from the hyperactively anti-American Indian Russopihle, to the condiscendingly, arrogantly ignorant American Indophobe.
That is why I get so irritated at thsi forum sometmes. It's like a perverse farce, because these strereotypes simply are insignifiacnt in real
Here is the reality:
Still not loved. Now not envied
Jun 23rd 2005 | WASHINGTON, DC
From The Economist print edition
Anti-Americanism is becoming entrenched, and getting more personal
Positive impressions of America have risen a few points in France, Germany and Russia since 2004, and have surged in India (since 2002) and
Against that, opinions of America are still well below their levels in 2000—and in most places they are still basically
negative (see chart).
Pew asked its respondents to give favourability ratings to five nations: America, France, Germany, Japan and China. America came bottom of
everyone's list everywhere except in India, where it was top, Poland, where it was in the middle and China, where it came above Japan.
view France and Germany more favourably than they do America. China is more popular than the United States throughout Europe. (Germany won this
particular beauty contest, by the way, scoring highly almost everywhere except Germany itself.)
The Pew poll even raises questions about how far others still see America as the land of opportunity, as Americans do. One question asked: “Suppose
a young person who wanted to leave asked you to recommend where to go to lead a good life—what country would you recommend?” Nobody except the
Indians picked the United States first (see table).
[edit on 14-7-2005 by rajkhalsa2004]