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Indian Navy want F-35, not the Super Hornets that were offered

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posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 11:03 PM
I guess an addendum to my last post...

The reason India went with Russia to do the PAK-FA is because Russia offered a helluva lot more with it than the F-35 program, which has best friend Britian crying foul with the American tech license /codes restriction.

PAK-FA isn't just a chip in to the big pot, or a development of some specialized aspect of the overall product, but the utilization of the entire of the two countries combined vast economic, technical and industrial resources.

The LCA built the Indian areospace industry from the ground up. The PAK-FA will make it the cutting edge.

And why are the Russians doing this? As I said before, 3 reasons:

1. Lack of resources to do themselves
2. Weaning India away from America/China
3. Doing their best to keep India one technological step ahead of China.

I should probably add another example of Russian game, actually, perhaps the first baby of this gameplan: the Brahmos supersonic cruise missile project. Developed with India, making it a sweet bang for the buck. Giving India considerable missile development experience for their own strategic program. And then it will be exported to every SE Asian country with the cash for it; Vietnam, Thailand, Singapore, etc. Effectively sinking the Chinese navy before they would even plot a course to the Spratleys

Game... Set...

[edit on 13-7-2005 by rajkhalsa2004]

posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 11:10 PM
Originally posted by Seekerof
The way India has been overhyping those beautiful Su-30MKI's and their other varients, I am somewhat surprised and question why the Indians would want to buy the JSF for their carriers myself, Dallas.

Indians overhyping?

You mean Indians, here, overhyping.

As to why F-35, they are a different class and generation. I'd explained force level procurement break downs and timeframes in my previous post.

The 5th gen aircraft enter service when the 3rd gen are phased out, keeping that 2-generation span of airframes in service. MKI is 4th+ generation, and LCA 4th+ with considerable open-architecture design. Concurrently, with each passing generation of aircraft, the number of aircraft types will be reduced, until only the indigenous aircraft are left.

posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 11:11 PM

Game... Set...

And definately no match.

If the Indians were offered so much by the Russians to join the PAK-FA program, then why is India wanting the F-35 JSF?

Not making much sense here.


posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 11:34 PM
Exactly, no one one the match yet

The first set goes to Russia, who siezed the post 9/11 Indian economic explosion to capitalize on everything from ships to tanks to aircraft, while not demanding cecession of, but making room for the growth of the indigenous Indian defense industry... something America was then completely not at all ready to do when they also offered arms.

The second set is determined by who will win the 126-number Multi-Role Combat Aircraft tender + additional deep liscense manufacture. This is by far the biggest single aircraft tender of 4th generation aircraft ever, the last major 4th gen aircraft sale before the 5th gen aircraft start coming off the lines, and, more significantly, the last major outright by of foreign aircraft by India, ever.

Whoever wins this has considerable head start on engaging India. If Russia gets it over others, it will be even more so, because their aircraft (MiG-29M2) has commonality with their upgrade of current IAF MiG-29, plus IN MiG-29K on INS Vikramaditya.

And mind you, its not a zero sum game between America and Russia. A lot of European countries are falling overthemslves to win this, and other such sales, for a purely economic (as opposed to strategic) reason, like France, Germany, Sweden, and Israel and South Africa.

And India is no dummy neither. They're very heistant to be completely reliant on the Russians again, which they will be with Russian MRCA, Russian naval aircraft, co-Russian 5th gen, plus a lot of other capital assets.

The third set (how many sets are there in a match, anyway?) will be the most significant. Who will win the strategic friendship of India. Will it be economically/cultural (US), or technological/military (Rus). This will be win by factors like good old geopolitics, and economic. I strongly suspect US will win this one. All factors point to it. The F-35 is just icing on the cake.

India will continue to play America v. Russia v. other mil suppliers on everything and everything. That is why even the most 'Russian' equipment in the Indian armed forces, currently the MiG-27, has avionics and weapons from France, Italy, Israel, UK and indigenous as well. Every other Indian platform is a hodgepodge mix of equipment +systems in crazy international contriviations never before seen.

India will continue to milk this competition while at the same time economically engaging china, and building up her own economy in a win-win-win situation until it all comes to pass and either # hits the fan in a potential WW3, or India's forced into a fullscale war (I don't consider war with Pakistan, Bangladesh full scale), or God forbid, a nuclear war (I don't think that will ever happen, but that's a whole other subject)

In that time, I strongly suspect that all sides on the equation, India, Russia, America, and EU, will all be on the same side. But who can predict the world in 50 years...

[edit on 13-7-2005 by rajkhalsa2004]

posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 11:42 PM
Alright, raj2004.
I can see where this is going.
I appreciate the Indian perspective given,


posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 11:50 PM
No probs

Though I didn't really answer your question. I'll do it briefly, cause my fingers now hrut from typign so much.

Why F-35?

1. Who knows if navailzed PAK-FA will be developed/developed by then?
2. India is still a developing country and can't throw in with 2 5th gen projects at the same time
3. IN has little commonality in aircraft type except -29Ks, so they are used to/structured for operating a completely different aircraft.
4. Maybe F-35 with PAK-FA experience can bring greater technical expertise for Indian defense industry.
5. India doesn't want to be Russia's bitch.
6. India wants to increase friendship with America.
7. Its all about the bling bling. If America can offer it with reasonable cost, from the above, India will go for it

[edit on 13-7-2005 by rajkhalsa2004]

posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 11:55 PM
Overhypeing the MKI ...i dont know about that;

IMO the Su-30MKI has a 5th gen radar compareable to the F-22's radar; and it was the first production fighter to have thrust vectoring and its TVC is a gear ahead of the F-22's TVC. And it combines a mix of the latest and best technology from Russia, France, Israel & India !!

Here's a good read on the Su-30MKI >> Su-30 MKI info

It may not be stealthy but who cares about stealth nowadays after all these stealth detection systems that have come out !! stealth detection

And Raj, great to have you back; maybe you want to do some ignorance busting on these threads too : link (lca related)

and here's another threads that you may want to take a look : (India-US defecne pact) (Abhay IFV) (tibet, 1962 etc) (ind-france garuda 2) (j-10 & lca,etc) (india's defence shield)

[edit on 14-7-2005 by Stealth Spy]

posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 11:58 PM
See what I mean, raj2004?
Over-hyping at its best, courtesy of Stealth Spy.


posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 12:05 AM

Originally posted by Seekerof
Over-hyping at its best, courtesy of Stealth Spy.

why dont you read this : Su-30 MKI info and then get back ....

posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 12:23 AM
I have read that and others like it, Stealth Spy.
News Flash, Stealth Spy, you are still over-hyping the Su-30 MKI.
The Su-30MKI and its varients will never match up to the F-35 or F-22, period, no matter the upgrades.

You simply are not getting that message....


posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 12:45 AM
I'm sorry to say it, and I wish it weren't, but he's right Stealth Spy

The Su-30MKI is probably the most potent 4th generation aircraft ever developed. Not only is it incredibly advanced for all the reasons you mentioned, but it's cost is like $24 million.

...$24 million! And it could basically match its own with every 4th generation a/c out there. Even coming close to the Eurofighter, at like a 1/3 of the cost!

This aircraft will serve well into the next 30 years in the IAF.

But at the same time, it still is a 4th+-generation aircraft. Though formidable now, it will become like India's baseline MiG-29 Sovietskis are today.

A 5th generation aircraft is comprised of 5th generation systems in a whole that is by far greater than its parts. You mention stealth-busting radar, well, there's also active radar cancellation technologies. Technology works both ways.

The F-22 is so friggin far ahead of other aircraft, its like a UFO. The PAK-FA is basically the equivilant of the F-35. There is a reason for it, because India can't fly MKIs forever. They want that cost-affordable MKI-like lead to be maintained against their rivals.

The F-22 really will be the magnum opus of manned flight, imho. Anything 6th generation will be UAVs.

By that time, who can tell what the world will be.

posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 12:49 AM

I'll take a gander, later, as for those threads, but Im not going to even bother arguing with people with their heads fo far up their arse that they only see sh erm.. crap and not the truth. People who come to a discussion with their minds made up are fundamentally ignorant. I say let them live in their delusions, cause when the truth eventually yanks them out of their colon, its gonna hurt bad.

[edit on 14-7-2005 by rajkhalsa2004]

posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 12:56 AM

I'm sorry to say it, and I wish it weren't, but he's right Stealth Spy

alright if you say so

people with their heads fo far up their arse that they only see sh erm.. crap and not the truth. People who come to a discussion with their minds made up are fundamentally ignorant. I say let them live in their delusions, cause when the truth eventually yanks them out of their colon, its gonna hurt bad.

and i hope chinawhite will read this

posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 01:09 AM

Originally posted by teh_sithlord
Its well known that the F 18 has almost become "outdated" with the arrival of the F 22, Hence the Usa offered the F18 to India as a last ditch effort to milk as much money from the F 18 "cash cow".

This not the baseline F-18 but the F/A-18 E/F AESA Super hornet that India was offered. It will be the mainstay of the USNavy for a long time

Read a little :

The Super Hornet is about 25% larger than its predecessor, the F/A-18C/D, but contains 42% fewer structural parts. The single-seat F/A-18/E and the two-seat F/A-18/F fly greater ranges with heavier payloads, have more powerful engines and provide greater survivability. June 2000 the USN ordered 222 fighters to be produced over the next five years. The first full-rate production aircraft was delivered in September 2001. Over 200 aircraft have been delivered. A second multi-year contract was signed in January 2004 for 42 aircraft to be purchased between 2005 and 2009. Total requirement is for at least 545 aircraft.

and imo in most probability, if the F-35 deal works out the P-8MMA too may work out.

Check out thread : P-8A MMA to become a multinational program, India too may be included

posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 01:12 AM

Originally posted by rajkhalsa2004

The Su-30MKI is probably the most potent 4th generation aircraft ever developed. Not only is it incredibly advanced for all the reasons you mentioned, but it's cost is like $24 million.

WTF. 24million. buy these instead of LCAs. i think the 24million was to upgrade indias su-30mk to the mki standard

posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 01:21 AM
Chinawhite, forgive me in advance if I ignore you hereafter in this thread, but you have a very bad reputation for derailing discussion. I'll be brief in my response for that purpose. So take it or leave it.

As for cost of MKI

Yes. $20-26 mil for HAL built variants, with cost/capabilities of block going up with each version.

The overall cost of refurb an Su-30K would be upwards of $30 mil, due to necessary redesign of airframe. Current Su-30Ks will be sent back to Russia, with contractual credit costs to India for new HAL MKIs in their stead.

As for why MKI,

1. Completely different class, capability, role
2. LCA is "4.5" generation airframe with a 'plug and play'-like capability to adapt to new advances in techologies and weapons, which the MKI does not.
3. See aircraft induction timeframe. Will serve lot longer than MKI.

If you do not understand, then start googling.


[edit on 14-7-2005 by rajkhalsa2004]

posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 01:32 AM
the indian versions are $22.5 million and $37.5 million for imported. can you tell me why theres a huge price difference. i have no clue why. is it cheaper labour or scaled-down version?

posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 01:43 AM
Well, the major portion is, because its imported, and the Russians have to mark up the aircraft to make a profit.

When HAL makes it, there is considerably less additional, after-production profit. The HAL factories are also Indian, so there is overall much lower production costs because the overall cost index of India is much, much lower (a dollar goes a long way.) Then you have engineers, and what not who work for much less, because of the lower price index.

Its the same reason why India is an outsourcing hub of high-end technical and research industry.

Then there's the thing about more and more indigenous components and subsystems being developed by HAL, which go into each successive block (I think they called them "version") of aircraft. Version 1.0 was all-Russian made, with limited A2G capability, etc. And each time the aircraft was produced, more and more technologies were made that were then fitted onto and replaced expensive imported Russian, French or Israeli technology.

So you have all these factors working together + greater industiral technological development in India that makes the actual production costs cheaper.

So while the Russian-built baseline Su-30K cost about $20 million, as each new version was inducted, more and more technologies and capabilities were attached, while the overall production cost got lower and lower, resulting in the roughly the same price for each subsequent much more powerful aircraft.

India has already stated that her goal for the MKI would be to incorporate as many technologies and systems developed from PAK-FA, LCA programs into newer and newer versions of the MKI, while keeping the same basic cost of $20-25 mil

So as long as they keep innovating, this is more than possible.

posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 03:42 AM
Yeah from what i have been reading in the papers some foreign components are gradually being replaced by indegenous ones, like the MFD's from france on the MKI have alredy been replaced by claimed to be "better" indegenous ones; the same goes for the HUD, etc with the indegeonous one developed for the Mig-27M upgrade.

and yes a dollar goes a long way here in India. 1 US $ = 43~50 Indian Rupees(varies daily between this range)

and here is another source :

. HAL chairman Nalini Ranjan Mohanty has said that the Indian-built Su-30 MKI's will cost only about $22.5 million a unit against the current import price of about $37.5 million


and India now have the licence to build the Su-30MKI's and their engines indegenously

IAF will eventually acquire a total of 190 Su-30MKI. Out of these 50 will be made in Russia by Irkutsk Aircraft Production Association (IAPO) while the rest will be produced in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). Production might be increased if necessary. (from the same source)

and getting back to the topic, here is a VSTOL-PAK-FA impression from Yakolev (spelling ?) aircraft design house.

external image

View the larger picture of this

and There were reports a few months back that the Indians had inquired about getting the HMS Invincible aircraft carrier from the British and this was also stated on the floor of the house of the British Parliment.
Anyone have anymore on this. How likely is it? When is the Invincible going to be retired by the RN?

[edit on 14-7-2005 by Stealth Spy]

posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 06:22 AM
Great post, rajkhalsa; I concur on your analysis.

From where I sit instability of Pakistan is obviously the greatest threat to the region, If Musharrif gets himself killed and the Jihadis take over, forget the balance of forces and the relative merits of F-35 vs. F-18's; India's security problems with small groups of murderous Islamists gets bigger.
They may even come over the border into Kashmir or try to blow up parliament!

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