inner circle of the freemasons

Originally posted by senrak
That's a good point Nygdan! In fact some of the older members of my Mother-Lodge seemed to truly BELIEVE that King Solomon ran around with a Square & Compasses around his neck and a Lambskin apron around his waist and that Hiram the Builder was murdered by three ruffians with silly names.

HAHAHA! Right before I received my third degree, one older brother came up to me and told me that in the second part of the ritual, we would be recreating a murder which actually took place thousands of years ago. Thankfully I knew enough about Freemasonry at that time to know that it didn't really happen (well, better said, we dont know if it happened) but I thought it was interesting that he actually believed it.

Originally posted by billybob
let's clear up the meaning of occult. it simply means hidden. it is not evil, unless what's hidden is evil. it is possible to hide good things, too. and sometimes necessary, to avoid persecution by the forces of evil.

I realize that the word occult means secret or hidden, I never said evil in anyway shape or form did I? Nope, I simply stated they are not compatible with Christianity.

Here is the definition from wikipedia:

Occult
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
For other uses of this term, see occult (disambiguation).
The word occult comes from Latin occultus (hidden), referring to the 'knowledge of the secret' or 'knowledge of the hidden' and often meaning 'knowledge of the supernatural', as opposed to 'knowledge of the visible' or 'knowledge of the measurable', usually referred to as science. The modern term's meaning is often imprecisely translated and used as a term for 'secret knowledge' or 'hidden knowledge', in the sense of meaning 'knowledge meant only for certain people' or 'knowledge that must be kept hidden'. For most practicing occultists, however, it is simply the study of a deeper spiritual reality that cannot be understood using pure reason or material science. In general though, the term is used in reference to "evil" spiritual practices, such as devil worship, child sacrifice, or the casting of curses, or at best it is defined by things considered to be superstitious, such as seances, Ouija boards, or astrology.
The ancient Greek term for occult is esoteric.

Originally posted by billybob
i totally disagree with yer statement there. especially regarding gnosticism, as gnosticism is a christian path.

You are way off base here however, in referring to Gnosticism as being a Christian religion. There have been Gnostic Christian Sects over the years, but they focused on the teachings that Christ worked through some magical means other then the Power of God. There are other Gnostic Sects that never once mention Christ as a figure, hence how can they be “Christ”ian? Gnostic beliefs center on salvation through learning of ancient, arcane, hidden (therefore Occult), knowledge…

Gnosticism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Gnosticism is a blanket term for various mostly mystical religions and sects most prominent in the first few centuries A.D.
The word gnosticism comes from the Greek word for knowledge, gnosis (γνῶσις), referring to the idea that there is special esoteric knowledge, a key to transcendent understanding, that only a few may possess. The occult nature of Gnostic teaching and the fact that much of the evidence for that teaching has traditionally come from attacks by orthodox Christians made it difficult to be precise about early Christian Gnostic systems. Irenaeus (Adversus Haereses) in particular described several different schools of 2nd century gnosticism in disparaging and often sarcastic detail while contrasting them with Christianity, to their detriment. Then, a chance discovery of a cache of 4th-century Gnostic texts was made at Nag Hammadi, Egypt, in 1945, and Gnosticism could be studied at first hand.
The word "Gnosticism" is also applied to many modern sects where only initiates have access to arcana. However, there has always been a great deal of diversity within gnosticism and modern gnostic doctrines sometimes have little to do with ancient Gnosticism.

Does this fit with masonry? Yes, they fit quite well. Masons do believe that they are to attain the Secret Knowledge of the Eastern Light, the Builder of the Universe. This would be by definition,” Arcane knowledge” and fits with both words occult and Gnosticism. As far as the reason for seeking that light, whether it’s for salvation or some other reason, I’ll let you guys argue over that one, but my definitions still fit.

Originally posted by defcon5
Masons do believe that they are to attain the Secret Knowledge of the Eastern Light, the Builder of the Universe. This would be by definition,” Arcane knowledge” and fits with both words occult and Gnosticism. As far as the reason for seeking that light, whether it’s for salvation or some other reason, I’ll let you guys argue over that one, but my definitions still fit.

Actually, Freemasons believe MANY things. There is no central line of thinking among masons. The teachings are provided to all masons, and each one is asked to come up with his own interpretations of them. Each mason is free to entirely reject all, or accept it all into his own personal beliefs or faith. The light is given to us by Freemasonry, what we do with it is our business.

Originally posted by defcon5
here have been Gnostic Christian Sects over the years, but they focused on the teachings that Christ worked through some magical means other then the Power of God.

They seem to allways assert that its ultimately from god. Heck, one could argue that interposing jesus between man and god isn't very godly, yet christians reconcile that by stating that the Godhead is Triune. So obviously having these other sorts of things figures in nicely and fully with christianity. Also, the gnostics, they were around when christianity was extremely young, they can't have been completely out of the mainstream. Sure, they weren't Orthodoxic, but they still beleived in Jesus as Saviour and Son of god, so what else is there to beign a christian?

There are other Gnostic Sects that never once mention Christ as a figure, hence how can they be “Christ”ian?

There are christians who are gnostics and non-christians who are gnostics, just like there are christians who are mechanics and non-christians who are also mechanics. Gnosis or whatever simply means knowledge. Gnostics were people who thought about what it all meant and waxed philosophical about it. Hardly unchristian, even if the terminology and jargon was simply that of the already established (tho non-christian) system.

I’ll let you guys argue over that one, but my definitions still fit.[/'quote]
I’ll let you guys argue over that one, but my definitions still fit.

Sure, freemasonry seems to be a quasi-esoteric/mystico-philosophical group of antiquarians. None of that exlcudes one from being a christian. Thinking hardly excludes one from being a christian. If a man is a pious christian and they go thru masonry, allways attentive to jesus and god, then who is anyone to judge them and call them a fool? They're a christian, they only beleive in god. Whats it matter if they use the jargon of some group to think about their theology?

Most

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Just because Freemasonry has occult ORIGINS does not mean it is itself occult NOW. Christiantiy has occult and pagan origins, but is it now? There is NOTHING pagan that is presented to a candidate or to any other mason... nothing of the sort. Don't twist the explanations that I and other masons have given you.

Now I don’t claim to know what goes on in the lodges now in more modern times (besides a lot of social activities), but in the past starting right out with initiation, the initiate is hit with a bunch of Pagan Occult ritual and symbols that most would never understand to begin with. Is there not a symbolic “Death and Rebirth” into masonry, are you not at some point told to rush upon a sword that is held to your chest, by way of two examples. Now this might be downplayed now and done just as what seems like a harmless ritual, but don’t even these two things have deeper darker meanings that go back to the earlier days and other occult traditions of other pagan religions?

Originally posted by sebatwerk
So you're saying that morality is religious in every aspect? That we have no sense of right and wrong outside of a religious context? That is absolutely absurd, and you know this. By your logic, what authority does the government have to tell us what is right and wrong in the eyes of the law?

We are told in the bible to “give unto Caesar what is Caesars”, unless it conflicts with the law of God. At that point like Shadrach, Mesach, and Abendigo we are supposed to refuse those commands, even unto death.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Or what authority does a parent have to punish his child for doing something wrong?

The authority to punish a child in a Christian manor and to raise one in a Christian environment are God given commands (I can post them all here, but do I need to, stuff like “spare the rod”, and “obey your parents that it may be well with thee” are well know quotes anyway). It is also a God given command that the child is to accept such authority as long as it does not contravene with Gods law, same as above.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
EVERY person, religious or not, has a sense of right and wrong. It is not completely up to religion to define this. We as humans are born with a sense of moderation and morality, it is not instilled in us by religion alone. Freemasonry does not supercede in Christianity's instruction of religion, but to say that religion is the ONLY institution that can teach morals is absurd.

To say that an organization that professes to not be a Religion is acceptable for the instruction in what is “Right and Wrong”, or that this extra training is required beyond the instruction of a Religion, seems more absurd to me. As a matter of fact, I consider it somewhat insulting to insinuate that moral teaching of a religion are somehow inferior and therefore require the supplement of a secrete organization to add to them.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Secret knowledge??? What are you talking about?!? Freemasonry teaches THE OBVIOUS, just like parents teach their kids obvious morals that we have all been instilled with. You don't need to have some secret knowledge to teach honor, truth, justice, charity, faith and love.

Then what is the point of the secrets of masonry to begin with. If they are simply a charitable fraternity then just cut out all the ritual, symbolism and so on, and be like the boy scouts or something. Do the good stuff, and drop the questionable stuff, and you all would get a lot less flack from ALL religious organizations that question you now. You bring this stuff on yourselves by continuing with that unneeded, unnecessary, nonsense.

Heck if it were not for that stuff, I might even join…

Originally posted by defcon5
but in the past starting right out with initiation, the initiate is hit with a bunch of Pagan Occult ritual and symbols that most would never understand to begin with. Is there not a symbolic “Death and Rebirth” into masonry, are you not at some point told to rush upon a sword that is held to your chest, by way of two examples. Now this might be downplayed now and done just as what seems like a harmless ritual, but don’t even these two things have deeper darker meanings that go back to the earlier days and other occult traditions of other pagan religions?

No, I can't say whether or not there is a pagan origin to the rituals because I don't know. What I DO know is that EACH action a candidate takes within a ritual has a lesson or morality behind it. I cannot discuss them because I took an obligation to that extent, but I can tell you that each action taken in lodge has an explanation to go with it, and they are all perfectly understandable when explained to the candidate.

We are told in the bible to “give unto Caesar what is Caesars”, unless it conflicts with the law of God. At that point like Shadrach, Mesach, and Abendigo we are supposed to refuse those commands, even unto death.

But does our country's law conflict with religious law? Freemasonry certainly doesn't, and our nation's laws don't either. They coincide perfectly. So where's the problem?

To say that an organization that professes to not be a Religion is acceptable for the instruction in what is “Right and Wrong”, or that this extra training is required beyond the instruction of a Religion, seems more absurd to me. As a matter of fact, I consider it somewhat insulting to insinuate that moral teaching of a religion are somehow inferior and therefore require the supplement of a secrete organization to add to them.

Freemasonry's teachings to NO SUCH THING!!! Freemasonry teaches the EXACT same lessons that are taught in the bible!!! HOW can you have a problem with this!?!? I don't understand!

Freemasonry does not teach anything beyond what is taught in the bible. And if it did, so what? Is there something wrong with supplementing what is taught in the bible, with similar knowledge taught in another manner? The difference is that it teaches the morals in a non-denominational manner, for ALL men to learn. If a mason doesnt agree, he's more than welcome to forget what was taught. But he should still give it fair concideration.

Then what is the point of the secrets of masonry to begin with. If they are simply a charitable fraternity then just cut out all the ritual, symbolism and so on, and be like the boy scouts or something. Do the good stuff, and drop the questionable stuff, and you all would get a lot less flack from ALL religious organizations that question you now. You bring this stuff on yourselves by continuing with that unneeded, unnecessary, nonsense.

WHAT questionable stuff?!? There is NO questionable stuff in Freemasonry. We've told you MANY times that the only masonic secrets are our modes of recognition (handshakes, passwords, etc). Freemasonry is a GREAT organization that helps men come together under the spirit of fatherhood and brotherhood to learn to be better men through charity, faith, honor and love. What's so questionable about that?

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by Loungerist
Are you suggesting that if an inner circle existed,they would put that in what's made available online? Or make the conditioning overt enough that those being conditioned could plainly see it and point it out?

Surely if there was something in the ritual that could be used to condition us in some way, you should be able to find it, no?

No. That's why it's called a hidden agenda. Because it's hidden. As in you're not supposed to be able to find it. It rather defeats the purpose of a hidden agenda to make it so it could be seen by everyone.

So what is it? What is this EVIDENCE that at least demonstrates that this theory may be correct?!?

Having read through many of the posts on this,this thread included,I'm sure you've already seen alot of it. I'm not going to repost it when it's already there and I think it's a safe assumption that you will say it's not evidence anyway.

In all my time as a mason, I have never heard ANYTHING credible to support the existence of an elite "upper echelon".

Credible is subjective. I think it's a safe bet that you'd take something denying the inner circle at much more face value than you'd grant something claiming it exists.

Looks, this rumor has been around for a long time, and I have never been given A SINGLE decent reason to believe this might be true. The only argument I've ever heard against this is:

"How do you know it's NOT true?"


Sorry, but that is NOT enough to demonstrate that an "elite inner circle" of freemasons exists. It's silly and NOBODY in Freemasonry believes in this.

You're not supposed to. That's the whole point. But I'm not trying to convince you one way or the other. I have no intent of trying to prove it does or doesn't exist either way.

Oh Good God, you completely misunderstood what I just said. I don't mean obvious cover-ups like Watergate and Lewinskigate, I'm talking about all the bogus theories such as cover-ups of UFO crashes and aliens being held in facilities and that the 9/11 attacks were actually perpetrated by our gov't, etc etc. THAT'S what I mean by government cover-ups, the ridiculous ones. Jeez...

Well judging from these examples you chose I stick by my original statement. It's quite easy to condition people to think things are "rediculous" or "bogus" when by many accounts they are well within the realm of possibility.

Whatever you say dude. The simple fact of the matter is that neither you nor anyone else has evidence of such a thing going on. The very structure of Freemasonry does not allow for the existence of such an "elite inner-circle", but if you want to believe in the tooth-fairy, be my guest. :shk:

Well that part I'll let you argue with someone else. It's an automatic circle and I don't see much point in running around in it.

[edit on 6-7-2005 by Loungerist]

[edit on 6-7-2005 by Loungerist]

Originally posted by sebatwerk
WHAT questionable stuff?!? There is NO questionable stuff in Freemasonry. We've told you MANY times that the only masonic secrets are our modes of recognition (handshakes, passwords, etc).

This questionable stuff is what I am referring too, and it’s the brux of the entire issue:

Originally posted by sebatwerk
No, I can't say whether or not there is a pagan origin to the rituals because I don't know. What I DO know is that EACH action a candidate takes within a ritual has a lesson or morality behind it. I cannot discuss them because I took an obligation to that extent, but I can tell you that each action taken in lodge has an explanation to go with it, and they are all perfectly understandable when explained to the candidate.

You accept the original Masonic explanation of these rituals, symbols and morality lessons. Who is it that made these things originally, and since many (which can be found online) CAN be proven for a fact to come from the things stated above, and have an Occult Pagan origin, why should I believe the mainline Masonic explanations of them? Since you guys cannot discuss them even though you admit they are common knowledge, how can a Christian that has questions about them even ask them without being attacked? How do I, as a Christian, know for a FACT that I would not be pressed to do something that was against my faith, simply because someone somewhere put a smiley face on it and said it meant something other then what it originally meant? Ok we all accept there is no “secret central group” to the masons, but who wrote the rituals, came up with the symbols, and the explanations. It had to come from somewhere, and someone, and what were that persons original intentions.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Freemasonry's teachings to NO SUCH THING!!! Freemasonry teaches the EXACT same lessons that are taught in the bible!!! HOW can you have a problem with this!?!? I don't understand!

Does it teach these to someone that is a Muslim, a Buddhist, or a Hindu as well? Since all other religions are accepted by masonry, it must then, right? Or does it interject their teachings into the mix as well?

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Is there something wrong with supplementing what is taught in the bible, with similar knowledge taught in another manner?

So its ok then to add or take things away from what is supposed to be the inspired word of God?

You know I see you guys in this thread and others bashing Fundamentalist Christians (which I am not BTW, I am a Lutheran), yet many of you claim to be Christians yourselves. So it’s Ok and honorable to pick on those who speak up for God, when they question Freemasonry. Is there not a quote from Christ himself, something about “You cannot have to masters”, something like “because you’ll love one and hate the other”? So what master is it you follow when you can pick apart Christians, and accept excuses as to the meanings behind the rituals and such of this organization even when Christians point out they may be wrong, plus many churches will excommunicate you for joining the group to begin with. Sounds like there is a god to masonry and if it’s nothing else its Freemasonry itself…

“you shall have no other gods before me”, that is why masonry is not compatible with Christianity in a nutshell, no matter how many good works you do to try and prove otherwise....

Originally posted by defcon5
This questionable stuff is what I am referring too, and it’s the brux of the entire issue:

You question having hand-shakes, passwords, etc? You must REALLY hate college fraternities.

You accept the original Masonic explanation of these rituals, symbols and morality lessons. Who is it that made these things originally, and since many (which can be found online) CAN be proven for a fact to come from the things stated above, and have an Occult Pagan origin,

Do you celebrate Easter? Christmas? THEY have Pagan origin as well...does that make them Pagan worship?

why should I believe the mainline Masonic explanations of them?

If you aren't a Mason, why should you even care?

Since you guys cannot discuss them even though you admit they are common knowledge, how can a Christian that has questions about them even ask them without being attacked? How do I, as a Christian, know for a FACT that I would not be pressed to do something that was against my faith, simply because someone somewhere put a smiley face on it and said it meant something other then what it originally meant?

For one, if you were to join a Lodge, presumably you'd KNOW someone who's already a member. We seldom join ANY organization unless we are acquainted with someone in it. (Note I said "seldom") You could discuss it with them. If you don't know someone, you can STILL discuss it with the investigating committee. They'll answer ANY question. There are TONS of educational materials out there for those who are interested in Freemasonry (pamphlets, videos, books, etc) From legitimate sources (Grand Lodges, etc) Also, there comes a point in the initiation where you are told that you are about to do nothing "which could conflict with any duties you owe to God, your country, your neighbor or yourself" You're then asked "with this assurance...are you willing to proceed?" If you are not, you're free to go your way. We don't FORCE anything upon ANYONE.

Ok we all accept there is no “secret central group” to the masons,

Well, Necros and his ilk doesn't accept that, but thinking people do.

but who wrote the rituals, came up with the symbols, and the explanations. It had to come from somewhere, and someone, and what were that persons original intentions.

Certainly it came from somewhere, but specifically "who" wrote them...well, that's lost in antiquity. As for interpreting the symbols, a basic explanation is given, but the TRUE interpretation is left to the individual member who is taught thereby to "think"

Does it teach these to someone that is a Muslim, a Buddhist, or a Hindu as well? Since all other religions are accepted by masonry, it must then, right? Or does it interject their teachings into the mix as well?

Buddhism shouldn't be in that mix. I don't KNOW of any Buddhist Masons. We require that a man believe in ONE God, who is the Creator and Sustainer of all. Buddhism doesn't deny the existence of "supernatural beings" but it also does NOT ascribe to them the power for creation, salvation or judgement.

Freemasonry is the "brotherhood of mankind in the family who's father is God" (Remember that "Love one another" thing that Christ said?) Morality isn't exclusive to Christianity, so yes, many moral teachings of other faiths is available for study. But the basic degrees (1-3) are focused on the teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures (called by some "The Old Testament")

So its ok then to add or take things away from what is supposed to be the inspired word of God?

I wouldn't think so. Did someone do this? Masonry doesn't.

You know I see you guys in this thread and others bashing Fundamentalist Christians

Fundamentalists tend to believe that THEY are adamantly RIGHT and everyone else is UNDENYABLY WRONG. I resent that and stand up against that sort of closed-minded thinking.

(which I am not BTW, I am a Lutheran),

A denomination which strictly forbids it's members to be Masons. I have many friends who are Lutherans (this is a highly German community) I belong to a denomination that is liturgically similar (Episcopalian) but it does allow it's members to decide things for themselves. That's NOT a Lutheran bash. Just an observation regarding "reason"

yet many of you claim to be Christians yourselves. So it’s Ok and honorable to pick on those who speak up for God, when they question Freemasonry.

defcon, the problem isn't that they're "speaking UP for God" the problem is that they seem to think that they are "SPEAKING FOR God" ...and God NEVER said "Thou canst not becomest Masons!"

Is there not a quote from Christ himself, something about “You cannot have to masters”, something like “because you’ll love one and hate the other”?

I assume you meant "two" masters, and yes, He said something like that. Masonry is not a "Master" (unless you let it be) Based on what you're saying a Christian shouldn't join the P.T.A. or a Bowling League or ANY organization. I suppose a Christian shouldn't have any hobbies either, huh?

So what master is it you follow when you can pick apart Christians, and accept excuses as to the meanings behind the rituals and such of this organization even when Christians point out they may be wrong,

"when Christians point out they MAY be wrong" You see, that's where Masons have the edge on you. We have personally EXPERIENCED Masonry. We KNOW whether or not it's wrong for us. I've known a few Masons who have found that Masonry isn't for them. They left the Lodge and are no longer Masons. That's their choice. I go to Lodge on Tuesday night and Mass on Sunday morning and have NO problem with doing both.

plus many churches will excommunicate you for joining the group to begin with. Sounds like there is a god to masonry and if it’s nothing else its Freemasonry itself…

No, it sounds like "many churches" want to do the thinking for it's members. Cattle are easily led....fundamentalists are a good example of this. I'm not "bashing" them...I just choose to think for myself. God, did afterall, give me a brain with which to reason.

“you shall have no other gods before me”, that is why masonry is not compatible with Christianity in a nutshell,

No. Again, you're calling Masonry a "god" or a "religion" and it's not. If someone chooses to MAKE it their "religion" they've lost sight of what Masonry is about. Too bad for them.

no matter how many good works you do to try and prove otherwise....

We don't do good works to "prove" anything. We do good works because we're supposed to help our fellow human being, who is made in the image of God.

Sorry you feel the way you do about Freemasonry defcon, but my advice to you is the same as it has been for many others here.

Don't join the Lodge. If you feel that way about it, we don't want you. That's not an insult...just a fact.

Originally posted by senrak
You question having hand-shakes, passwords, etc? You must REALLY hate college fraternities.

I don’t hate them per say, but there are many I would not join. There are several Christian Fraternities out there that I would have no issue with as long as they do not violate what is in the Bible.

Originally posted by senrak
Do you celebrate Easter? Christmas? THEY have Pagan origin as well...does that make them Pagan worship?

I think I have already expressed my opinion on this, but to re-chew my food here goes. My religion does not have any issue with these holidays, but that does not mean that I do not. No religion out there that I have found believes EXACTLY what I believe. I was raised a Lutheran and in Lutheran Church and School for almost all my life, except a stint in Catholic High School. I feel that Luther was on the right track breaking from the RCC, and that these holidays should not be part of his religion based on the fact that the RCC brought them in from pagan religions. Also my being a student of Historicism says that these holidays go along the line of “changing the times and the seasons”.

Originally posted by senrak
If you aren't a Mason, why should you even care?

Because as I have already stated. I have been repeatedly pressured to join them by friends and in-laws.

Originally posted by senrak
They'll answer ANY question. There are TONS of educational materials out there for those who are interested in Freemasonry (pamphlets, videos, books, etc) From legitimate sources (Grand Lodges, etc) Also, there comes a point in the initiation where you are told that you are about to do nothing "which could conflict with any duties you owe to God, your country, your neighbor or yourself" You're then asked "with this assurance...are you willing to proceed?"

Considering that you almost immediately came up with the questions about the origins of Christmas and other holidays, I suspect that you are used to 90% of the religious people to talk to not knowing that. That being said how many of the common every day religious folk out there know things like what cabalist entities alter is supposed to be trimmed in white and silver on blue, or what a “goat of mendes” is, or for that matter who’s realm is the east or the eastern star. Most will not and will have no issue with such symbols out of ignorance. They will accept whatever someone tells them they mean, and worry about the fun social stuff. Most will never read dig or research since its too much work and to them its not that important.

Originally posted by senrak
Certainly it came from somewhere, but specifically "who" wrote them...well, that's lost in antiquity. As for interpreting the symbols, a basic explanation is given, but the TRUE interpretation is left to the individual member who is taught thereby to "think"

But according to your members it was only founded in 1717, that is a far cry from antiquity.

So as a member is there anything Pagan/Cabalist/Gnostic/Hermetic about any of the symbols in honesty?

Originally posted by senrak
Buddhism shouldn't be in that mix. I don't KNOW of any Buddhist Masons. We require that a man believe in ONE God, who is the Creator and Sustainer of all. Buddhism doesn't deny the existence of "supernatural beings" but it also does NOT ascribe to them the power for creation, salvation or judgement.

Well what about Hindu’s since they believe in multiple gods like Shiva and Kali?

By the way don’t pick on my typo of to/two, Judgment has no e in after the g…

Originally posted by senrak
I wouldn't think so. Did someone do this? Masonry doesn't.

Go back and re-read this part, it was about a conversation concerning what right the masons felt they have to add to the moral lessons of the bible, or change/alter/abridge them, since they are not a religion.

Originally posted by senrak
Fundamentalists tend to believe that THEY are adamantly RIGHT and everyone else is UNDENYABLY WRONG. I resent that and stand up against that sort of closed-minded thinking.

So do masons, so much so they feel that they are more qualified to teach morals then an organized religion is. Plus there is absolutely NO WAY that anything they do could be consider or construed to be unchristian or wrong, after all they are the enlightened ones.

Originally posted by senrak
A denomination which strictly forbids it's members to be Masons.

Granted and my initial attention of something not being right about masonry came from there, when I was young and asked to go to De-Molay. The rest I found out on my own over the years as I was repeatedly asked to join and had to study more and more as they would come to me with the same answers, yet secrecy, which even the masons here use.

I am the type of guy that HAS gone to my pastor and argued over the holiday issue, so what in the world made them think I was going to join this without a confirmation of facts and willingness to talk about the subject matter openly, just blows my mind. In other words you state that you are asked if these things will violate your religious beliefs prior to entering fully in, yet at that point there are still things that are unknown to the initiate, so how can he truly make an informed decision at that point?

Its like buying a car sight-unseen, or only knowing what the bumper looked like.

Originally posted by senrak

defcon, the problem isn't that they're "speaking UP for God" the problem is that they seem to think that they are "SPEAKING FOR God" ...and God NEVER said "Thou canst not becomest Masons!"

Perhaps he did not, but he did say you should not love anything more then you love him, which means anything, another person, a pet, a material object, or an organization. When I hear guys in other threads go so far as to say that they switched religions or quit them to stay a mason, this tells me that their god is their fraternity.

Originally posted by senrak
I assume you meant "two" masters, and yes, He said something like that. Masonry is not a "Master" (unless you let it be) Based on what you're saying a Christian shouldn't join the P.T.A. or a Bowling League or ANY organization. I suppose a Christian shouldn't have any hobbies either, huh?

Sure you can, but none of those things involve rituals, symbols, arcane knowledge, etc. Also if a hobby should start to mean more to you then God, then you are in danger of the first commandment again. Once again I say take out the occultish stuff, the rituals, and so on, and I would have no issue with masonry.

Originally posted by senrak
I've known a few Masons who have found that Masonry isn't for them.

So what was their beef with masonry?

Originally posted by senrak
No, it sounds like "many churches" want to do the thinking for it's members. Cattle are easily led....

I can say that I have seen some churches over the years that are somewhat reluctant to go into too much depth on certain topics for fear of hurting the faith of someone that may not understand things as well as someone that has a deeper faith. I have not felt led since childhood, and have gone and spoken with my pastors on a great deal of deeper subjects. Stuff I would have thought they would have had a fit about, then come to find out that they have had to study the same things at some point. People on the whole are not the sheep that they once were; with the internet any information is to readily at everyone’s figure tips, the led sheep thing is dissipating rapidly. I used to have to go spend a fortune in books to read on some of the things I have, now I can access almost anything I want online.

As far as the rest I really don’t have any comment on it other then I have made my choice, and I did that a long time ago. The topic of this thread was to explain why a Christian website is saying these things and that is what I am trying to explain. If you want me to go into the meanings of symbols and such, it is a pointless venture since you guys will refuse to discuss any of it anyway.

Originally posted by defcon5
I don’t hate them per say, but there are many I would not join. There are several Christian Fraternities out there that I would have no issue with as long as they do not violate what is in the Bible.

Agreed. Wholeheartedly. I personally do not find that Masonry violates anything that is in the Bible. Some people seem to. I have no beef with them if it's their personal belief. It's when they start screaming that I'm hell-bound for being a Mason that I stand up. (I'm not, by the way, accusing you of doing this defcon. We're simply discussing)

I think I have already expressed my opinion on this, but to re-chew my food here goes. My religion does not have any issue with these holidays, but that does not mean that I do not. No religion out there that I have found believes EXACTLY what I believe.

Same here. I have some personal issues with recent decisions of the Episcopalian Church, USA. (which I have voiced to my Parish Priest and to our Bishop)

Because as I have already stated. I have been repeatedly pressured to join them by friends and in-laws.

That's too bad. No one should be pressured to do something he or she doesn't want to do. I have a very good friend who'd be (in my opinion) an excellent Mason. He's made it clear to me that he's not interested, so we never discuss it.

Considering that you almost immediately came up with the questions about the origins of Christmas and other holidays, I suspect that you are used to 90% of the religious people to talk to not knowing that. That being said how many of the common every day religious folk out there know things like what cabalist entities alter is supposed to be trimmed in white and silver on blue, or what a “goat of mendes” is, or for that matter who’s realm is the east or the eastern star. Most will not and will have no issue with such symbols out of ignorance. They will accept whatever someone tells them they mean, and worry about the fun social stuff. Most will never read dig or research since its too much work and to them its not that important.

You're exactly right. Many Masons have no idea what some of the basic degree teachings are, and sadly, many of them couldn't grasp them if someone told them. That's human nature, I suppose.

But according to your members it was only founded in 1717, that is a far cry from antiquity.

The Grand Lodge of England was the premier Grand Lodge. It was organized when four Lodges came together and FORMED it in 1717. Masonic Lodges existed many years before that. A few sketchy manuscripts say at LEAST as far back as the 1400's some say even earlier.

So as a member is there anything Pagan/Cabalist/Gnostic/Hermetic about any of the symbols in honesty?

In some of the degrees, yes. But they're utilized to teach morality, not to teach the worship of Pagan gods, etc. A study of comparative religions helps the Christian understand where many basic teachings originated. Studying Buddhism certainly doesn't make one a Buddhist, but it can help him understand the belief system of Buddhists and appreciate how similar (and in some cases dissimilar) it is to Christianity.

Well what about Hindu’s since they believe in multiple gods like Shiva and Kali?

Freemasonry requires that a man believe in ONE God..the Creator and Sustainer of all. If he doesn't believe that way, he should not be initiated into Freemasonry.

Go back and re-read this part, it was about a conversation concerning what right the masons felt they have to add to the moral lessons of the bible, or change/alter/abridge them, since they are not a religion.

But that's the point. Masonry doesn't "add to" or "alter" the moral lessons of the Bible. It draws from them....reinforces them. It does not mock them nor try to replace them.

So do masons, so much so they feel that they are more qualified to teach morals then an organized religion is.

Certainly not. And we do not presume to. Morals are also instilled in the Boy Scouts, but the Boy Scouts are not a religion either. Masonry teaches that a good Mason will support the Church of his choice, though and most active Masons I know are also active in their individual churches...myself included.

Plus there is absolutely NO WAY that anything they do could be consider or construed to be unchristian or wrong, after all they are the enlightened ones.

Now you're being condescending. There's no need for that.

Granted and my initial attention of something not being right about masonry came from there, when I was young and asked to go to De-Molay. The rest I found out on my own over the years as I was repeatedly asked to join and had to study more and more as they would come to me with the same answers, yet secrecy, which even the masons here use.

Sorry you don't understand the "secrecy" part of it. If it will help, I'll add this quote from the Entered Apprentice (First) Degree from The Kentucky Monitor:
--------------------------------------
Secrecy is the first great lesson of the Entered Apprentice degree. This great virtue is necessary in our order so that Masons will appreciate the lessons taught. As a secret shared between two people binds them together, so the secrets of our fraternity bind the brethren together. If our teachings of beautiful truth were scattered broad?cast throughout the world, they would become commonplace; so they are taught under secrecy, only to those deemed worthy to receive and practice them. Taken with the salt of curiosity and expectation, they are the more readily perceived.
Nothing can more torture a man than the pangs of remorse which a guilty conscience can force upon him. Sharp instruments may torture the flesh, but unless the torture be unto death a few short days suffice to heal the wounds and only the scars remain to remind of the agony endured. But the torture of a guilty conscience is not so. Memory of pledges violated, evil deeds done, kind actions left undone, comes to us after years have passed; comes to us as we lie upon our beds and chases "sleep, tired Nature's sweet restorer, " from our eyes, and makes our bed a hell; comes amid our innocent social pleasures and turns our joy to pain; a face, a word or an odor may bring back the hateful incidents of a scene that no subsequent life of purity and holiness and rectitude of conduct can banish from the memory. Brother, guard well your actions, that henceforth no memory of evil deeds disturb your peace or rack your mind and conscience.
-----------------------------

...doesn't sound so evil or anti-Christian now, does it?

I am the type of guy that HAS gone to my pastor and argued over the holiday issue, so what in the world made them think I was going to join this without a confirmation of facts and willingness to talk about the subject matter openly, just blows my mind. In other words you state that you are asked if these things will violate your religious beliefs prior to entering fully in, yet at that point there are still things that are unknown to the initiate, so how can he truly make an informed decision at that point?

Apparently Lodge Education isn't a high priority on the part of that particular Mason's Lodge. It should be. Prospective members should fully understand what they're about to embark upon. Sadly, many Lodges don't educate their own members...let alone prospective ones.

Its like buying a car sight-unseen, or only knowing what the bumper looked like.

Agreed.

Perhaps he did not, but he did say you should not love anything more then you love him, which means anything, another person, a pet, a material object, or an organization. When I hear guys in other threads go so far as to say that they switched religions or quit them to stay a mason, this tells me that their god is their fraternity.

Again, agreed. Masonry should NEVER conflict with one's personal religion. When it DOES, it's because the member CAUSED it to...not because Freemasonry wanted it to. It's simply not that kind of organization.

Sure you can, but none of those things involve rituals, symbols, arcane knowledge, etc. Also if a hobby should start to mean more to you then God, then you are in danger of the first commandment again. Once again I say take out the occultish stuff, the rituals, and so on, and I would have no issue with masonry.

I fail to understand why "arcane knowledge" would be a bad thing. Education and understanding to me is important. As far as ritual...it's tradition...without it Masonry would be the Rotary Club, the Lions Club, etc. It's that common shared experience that binds the Brotherhood together. When I received the degrees, I went through the same (basic) ceremony that George Washington went through...and Beethoven and John Wayne and Dr. Norman Vincent Peale...and numerous other famous (and some infamous) Masons. But, again, they're just ceremonies...no different than the Inauguration of the President of the U.S. is a "ritual ceremony"

So what was their beef with masonry?

One in particular thought that the 33rd Degree taught Masons that Satan is God...why? because his (fundamentalist) preacher (who'd NEVER EVEN BEEN A MASON) told him so. "like a lamb to the slaughter..."

I can say that I have seen some churches over the years that are somewhat reluctant to go into too much depth on certain topics for fear of hurting the faith of someone that may not understand things as well as someone that has a deeper faith. I have not felt led since childhood, and have gone and spoken with my pastors on a great deal of deeper subjects. Stuff I would have thought they would have had a fit about, then come to find out that they have had to study the same things at some point. People on the whole are not the sheep that they once were; with the internet any information is to readily at everyone’s figure tips, the led sheep thing is dissipating rapidly. I used to have to go spend a fortune in books to read on some of the things I have, now I can access almost anything I want online.

Yes, you're right. The information is out there for those who are interested enough to go to the trouble to look for it.

As far as the rest I really don’t have any comment on it other then I have made my choice, and I did that a long time ago. The topic of this thread was to explain why a Christian website is saying these things and that is what I am trying to explain.

Again, understood. I respect the choice you've made, but disagree with the reason why you've made that choice.

If you want me to go into the meanings of symbols and such, it is a pointless venture since you guys will refuse to discuss any of it anyway.

I'm happy to discuss meanings of symbols and such. Always have been. As a primer, though...I suggest reading the following:

www.srmason-sj.org...

Regards,

Heh, Senerak's desperate obsession with the superficial is amazing - So there's no such thing as a Knight Kadosh nowadays etc...
For pity's sake man, just look on the "official" Masonic websites to debunk that one.

The rituals as described in the book match verbatim the philosophical explainations by Pike in "Morals and Dogma" (he is actually thanked by McClenechan in the Proem for bringing the 2 Jurisdictions closer togther on page 8 www.freemasonry101.org.uk... ) and ALL of the stated ranks, regalia and described furnishings even match current items on sale at FreeMasonStore.com and the like.

Hey, now it's clear to me...it must be all those evil "Anti-Masons" creating false websites pretending to be Freemasons, yeah, that's gotta be it...NOT.

This book really hurts you doesn't it - what it proves clearly to me is THAT YOU HAVE NEVER READ IT.

Why not - because you'd get thrown out of your Lodge!

32nd Degree Freemason...my @rse.


[edit on 6-7-2005 by MrNECROS]

First I apologize for the condescending remark, I am getting tired and work nights so it’s getting to be time for me to hit the sack. However a few things that strike me right off the bat I will put here quickly:

You bring up clubs like the lions club, yet those are the same types of organizations that you use to say that masonry is A-Ok, and this goes to reinforce that the secrecy and ritual are the issue most Christians have.

Your quote from the Kentucky Monitor does strike a chord with me in many areas, but most good philosophies do, that is what makes them good. There are holes in it and I will have to discuss that later on tonight.

How can you say that the morality lessons are not altered from the bible, when two paragraphs above you say that pagan stuff is used to teach morality?

I will read your site linked, but that might take me a bit of time, so I will get back to you in depth after doing the reading…

Regards.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Heh, Senerak's desperate obsession with the superficial is amazing - So there's no such thing as a Knight Kadosh nowadays etc...
For pity's sake man, just look on the "official" Masonic websites to debunk that one.

For pity's sake you fool...read what was posted. There is NO SUCH THING as a Knight Kadosh in the Northern Jurisdiction these days.

www.supremecouncil.org...

Read the titles of the degrees and see if you can find a Kadosh lurking around these days...

www.philascottishrite.org...

In the Southern Jurisdiction, however...there still is. It's still the 30th Degree like it has been for years.

www.srmason-sj.org...

For degree titles of the Southern Jurisdiction see:

www.nevadamasons.org...

Oh, and here's your RARE book...

www.buy.com...

The rituals as described in the book match verbatim the philosophical explainations by Pike in "Morals and Dogma" (he is actually thanked by McClenechan in the Proem for bringing the 2 Jurisdictions closer togther on page 8 www.freemasonry101.org.uk... ) and ALL of the stated ranks, regalia and described furnishings even match current items on sale at FreeMasonStore.com and the like.

Yep. They do. Those were the rituals in use by the Northern Masonic Jurisdiction in the 1800's...they've been greatly revised since then, but the basic teachings remain the same (why do I have to keep saying that?)

Hey, now it's clear to me...

I sincerely doubt that ANYTHING is clear to you.

This book really hurts you doesn't it - what it proves clearly to me is THAT YOU HAVE NEVER READ IT.

I've said REPEATEDLY what a good book it is. I LOVE that book. (You obviously CAN'T read)

Why not - because you'd get thrown out of your Lodge!

BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ...thrown out for reading a Masonic book?

BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA You're a trip Necros. A trip!

32nd Degree Freemason...my @rse.

You're right. I'm not. I'm an imposter...never read...never wrote...

www.srmason-sj.org...

www.srmason-sj.org...

www.srmason-sj.org...

Oh well.....




[edit on 6-7-2005 by senrak]

Originally posted by defcon5
First I apologize for the condescending remark, I am getting tired and work nights so it’s getting to be time for me to hit the sack.

No problem. I understand that.

However a few things that strike me right off the bat I will put here quickly:
You bring up clubs like the lions club, yet those are the same types of organizations that you use to say that masonry is A-Ok, and this goes to reinforce that the secrecy and ritual are the issue most Christians have.

I don't think I follow. I have nothing against those clubs (I am in fact a Lion) but they're "clubs" Masonry is much more than that. And I do agree...many Christians are against secrecy and ritual because they don't understand it.

Your quote from the Kentucky Monitor does strike a chord with me in many areas, but most good philosophies do, that is what makes them good.

Exactly.

How can you say that the morality lessons are not altered from the bible, when two paragraphs above you say that pagan stuff is used to teach morality?

Is the Bible the ONLY source of morality? Can not other sources teach morality? If not, why not? Other sources say that people shouldn't kill (murder) ..and I know..the Bible says it too, but it's just as valid from other sources as long as it's right...right? Why not study and be aware of these sources and their teachings?

I will read your site linked, but that might take me a bit of time, so I will get back to you in depth after doing the reading…

I look forward to it. It's nice to have some real "discussion" here for a change...although Necros did manage to stop by and drop his usual load of garbage on us. He's such a hoot!

Originally posted by senrak

You're right. I'm not. I'm an imposter...never read...never wrote...

www.srmason-sj.org...

www.srmason-sj.org...

www.srmason-sj.org...

I'd say MrNecros just got pwned by Senrak.

Originally posted by JustMe74
I'd say MrNecros just got pwned by Senrak.

Oh, he'll never believe that JustMe74! He's adamantly convinced that he's discovered a rare, secret book printed BY Masons, FOR Masons that Masons are (if you can believe this) FORBIDDEN to read. Could anything be more ridiculous?

Oh wait...it could. He's proven that too by being even more ridiculous on several occasions.

Originally posted by senrak

Oh wait...it could. He's proven that too by being even more ridiculous on several occasions.

Is he the one that claimed that Masons made his toilet explode or something of that nature? I seem to remember reading that (maybe in this thread?)

Originally posted by JustMe74
Is he the one that claimed that Masons made his toilet explode or something of that nature? I seem to remember reading that (maybe in this thread?)

Absolutely. And we drugged him, fed his dog laxatives, went through his mail, stole his girl-friend....

In retrospect, I guess I shouldn't make fun of the poor guy. He obviously has some "issues" . . . but none that Freemasons have caused, nor could they assist him with them.

The funniest part of his recent rantings is that a while back he came across a copy of the 1800's era "Book of the Ancient & Accepted Scottish Rite" An old "Monitor" (non-secret portions) of the rituals of the Northern Masonic Jurisdiction and he thinks he's found some rare Masonic book that Masons aren't supposed to have or read, etc. etc.

Several of us pointed out what it is and I've said repeatedly what a great HISTORICAL book it is, but it's NOT a reflection of all of the current rituals (the NMJ is CONSTANTLY revising their rituals for some reason unbeknownst to me) and it's NOT a "Monitor" of ANY other Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite at all. Never has been.

He can't seem to accept the fact that the book he has isn't secret (never was) isn't forbidden (never was) and as far as the text itself, isn't rare (never was) A actual copy of the book in good shape is getting rather pricey, but the text is available in reprint form for $30 or so.

Oh well...I've always contended that if nothing else...Necros is terribly entertaining.

The problem with Mr Necross is that he has written that Freemasons gave him drugs, destroyed his toilet and tried to use mind control over him.He has never been able to prove these claims.I think that he never will be able to show beyond reasonable doubt that Freemasons are out to get him.In many ways he is a man who needs help.I hope that he gets that help.
Gerard