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inner circle of the freemasons

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posted on Jun, 29 2005 @ 06:27 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
It does look to me like its saying that there are subordinate and superior 'grades' or degrees or whatever. But is this saying that a person of a subordinate level has to listen to that 'higher' grade? Or rather that they merely should give them certain honours when they show up, such as a ceremony and the like?


Nygdan,

That's exactly what it's saying. The explanation of why is too long and complicated to get into here (unless you're *really* interested) but the long and short of the matter is...Necros seems to think that someone said there was no hierarchy in Masonry. Obviously there IS...we have officers. What we don't have is any "secret high degree" But I'm beyond believing that he can comprehend that.

He still thinks he found a secret book and made it public....when it's been available to anyone who happened to want it for over 100 years. In fact he doesn't even have the decency to acknowledge the fact that I've PUBLICLY (via this forum) thanked him on several occasions for taking the time to scan this wonderful old book and making it available. I have 3 copies of it, but they're very old and fragile. It's nice to have a digital "reading" copy.




posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 07:39 AM
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Originally posted by Trinityman
Perhaps you could expand on this, and what you understand by the term 'Universalism'


Universalism is based on the idea that “every knee shall bend and every tongue confess”. That basically everyone receives salvation regardless of where their faith lies. So basically you can call whoever you want God, and believe things with no scriptural fact, or alter what is in the word and it will not effect your salvation since every gets in anyway.

Its similar to the philosophy that if a man is good, no matter what he believes, God will take that into account. Again while this is terribly politically correct, it does not match up with my read on scripture.


Originally posted by Trinityman

As far as Hiram Abiff is concerned... it's a myth. Those events as described in the third degree never happened. The bare bones of the story of the building of King Solmons Temple was expanded to become the 'traditional' history of freemasonry. …….

I think you're reading too much into it.


Not the person I was eluding to. I am not sure though I think you might use the two fellows interchangeably. I am referring to the first Artificer mentioned in the book of Genesis.



Originally posted by Trinityman

I have found nothing in freemasory that conflicts with my relationship with The Father or the Son. And yes, I have looked. But perhaps I recognise allegory in the Bible where others see only literal text, and maybe that is a difference between us.


Yes much of the word I read pretty black and white, so that may be the difference between me and others that have less issue with all this.



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 09:55 AM
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Hi defcon5

Nice to hear from you again.


Originally posted by defcon5
Universalism is based on the idea that “every knee shall bend and every tongue confess”. That basically everyone receives salvation regardless of where their faith lies. So basically you can call whoever you want God, and believe things with no scriptural fact, or alter what is in the word and it will not effect your salvation since every gets in anyway.

Thanks, that clears up my lack of knowledge nicely. My perspective is that only Christian freemasons are going to heaven, but there will be a huge range of opinion on this from different freemasons because of the huge range of beliefs that the fraternity encompases.


Its similar to the philosophy that if a man is good, no matter what he believes, God will take that into account. Again while this is terribly politically correct, it does not match up with my read on scripture.

Although this is an extreme example, I have more sympathy with this position than you do, clearly.


Not the person I was eluding to. I am not sure though I think you might use the two fellows interchangeably. I am referring to the first Artificer mentioned in the book of Genesis.

Heh - sorry about that... you shouldn't be so cryptic


I'm afraid that the character that you refer to plays only a very minor part in the 3rd degree that I took. Are you sure you're not getting mixed up with HA? There are certainly differences between English and US rituals and maybe that is one of them.

It is my personal belief that the three great tenets of freemasonry - Brotherly Love (Mark 12:31, Luke 10:30-37); Relief (1 Corinthians 13:2) and Truth (John 8:31-32) are perfectly in alignment with the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ. The reason I know this is because I am an experienced freemason and a humble Christian.

I hope you won't take this the wrong way, but I believe many people who object to freemasonry on religious grounds are having their eyes covered by Satan, who is deliberately deceiving them into believing they are doing the work of the Lord, when that is so patently not the case.

Freemasonry is such an incredibly powerful force for good that I can see no other reason why such people would object to it?



posted on Jul, 3 2005 @ 06:44 AM
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Nygdan:
A Star is a "light" normally a candle or a torch.
A Sword is ...ummmm well a sword.
"The Arch of Steel" is an arch formed by all the receiving members raising their swords to form an arch that the dignitary will enter the Lodge under.
The lowest ranking dignitary in Freemasonry is a Prince of Jerusalem, although they cannot Inaugurate a Lodge of Perfection on their own they may open and administer one.
www.freemasonry101.org.uk...

When the presiding Knight or a visiting dignitary attends then he is greeted in the previously described manor.

There are further guides to personal behavior and expected plenishments further described in the section relating to the various ranks starting here with the Princes of Jerusalem Series:

Note the disclaimer stating that if you read this section or higher without attaining the pre-existing grades you will be automatically expelled from the Scottish Rite:

www.freemasonry101.org.uk...


Anyone, however can open a Blue Lodge (even Me) because they are not officially recognized by the Grand Lodges, however their officers will be as they *should* belong to a Lodge of Perfection at least in order not to provoke any Lodges in nearby areas.


[edit on 3-7-2005 by MrNECROS]



posted on Jul, 3 2005 @ 06:54 AM
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Oh yes and Senrak has 3 copies of this book, apparently it's written by an Englishman and is about the Cearnue Rite or some other such non-sense (well it was when he posted 12 months back...)

Glad to see he's at least admitting it's "The Scottish Rite" at last, now if he can just prise open those pages and actually READ them he'll see a lot more than he's bargained for....


[edit on 3-7-2005 by MrNECROS]



posted on Jul, 3 2005 @ 09:24 AM
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Originally posted by MrNECROS
Oh yes and Senrak has 3 copies of this book,


Yep. Sure do. Thank you for remembering. They're beautiful, deep purple books, with gilt edging on the pages and gilt embossing.



apparently it's written by an Englishman and is about the Cearnue Rite or some other such non-sense (well it was when he posted 12 months back...)


No. You're making that up. It was written for the Northern Masonic Jurisdiction. It was NEVER "secret" like you claim and ANYONE could and still can purchase it.



Glad to see he's at least admitting it's "The Scottish Rite" at last,


I always have, Necros. Why would imply otherwise...to make yourself look more foolish than you already do?



now if he can just prise open those pages and actually READ


Been there. Done that. Interesting reading, but not THAT interesting...since it's only a "Monitor" (i.e. EXOTERIC work and NOT a full-blown Ritual) I have the real rituals to read. They're MUCH more interesting.



them he'll see a lot more than he's bargained for....


You're right. Since I've been a Mason for 16+ years and a Scottish Rite Mason for 15 years and VERY active (including doing some writing for some Scottish Rite publications) Yep. It's obvious that I know nothing about Scottish Rite or Masonry in general, but YOU bought an old book and you're a freakin' expert.

You crack me up! (in a pathetic sort of way)

By the way, regarding a previous post by you, where in that silly book did you read that if a member read beyond where he was supposed to he was automatically expelled? I looked and looked....perhaps I missed it. (Or perhaps someone missed his medications today)






[edit on 3-7-2005 by senrak]



posted on Jul, 3 2005 @ 12:22 PM
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Here are some of your contributions to the original posting of the rituals...
Ring any bells?
There was plenty more cods-whallop coming from your team effort with Masonic Lite, Leveller and co..

What is your issue here - by now you must realise you are only painting yourself into a corner?
These are the "Real MaCoy" - and you know it.

Question is why do you do this; I can understand poor deluded sods like Sabatwerk yammering away and wailing like banshees but really, YOU should know better.



Originally posted by senrak


I remember speaking with you, but I'm not sure what you a mean about a cheat card. Nor do the UK Lodges work in the Scottish Rite; there are three or four clandestine Lodges in the UK that work in Cerneau, but to my knowledge, they are all French-speaking.
Fiat Lvx.

MasonicLight,

Cerneauism also exists today in the form of the irregular "Supreme Council of Louisiana" which confers the 1st-33rd Degrees. It's a small group but very active. I have a full set of their rituals and they're pretty impressive. They're quite different in places from Jonathan Blanchard's "Scotch-Rite Masonry, Illustrated." BTW, since this thread had changed to "Cerneauism"
If you're interested in such things I'm currently working on a book that is supposed to be printed by Lost Word Books/Anchor Communications (i.e. Mike Poll) that deals with the Cerneau group that sprang up in New York in the 1880's under the direction of William H. Peckham. It's commonly called the Cerneau-Peckham Supreme Council. I'm writing a brief history of the organization (because it was short-lived) and reprinting it's 4th - 32nd Degree Rituals (which contain some "Pike" influence.)

-Senrak


Originally posted by senrak

Originally posted by MrNECROS
And again you fail to answer a question that should be obvious even to a child.
You HAVE NOT posted a reply to this very straightforward question but to call you a liar is unnecessary.

Let me get this right, you are now claiming that Charles T McClenechan's �Book of the Ancient Accepted Scottish Rite (1884)� is a fake?

Which still does not explain (sigh...again...), if the ritual as I have posted it is not the REAL thing, then why is its regalia and tracing board ("The Camp") EXACTLY the same as the one on a REAL apron?


I don't know if it's been pointed out (because I can't follow EVERY post...) but Charles T. McClenechan's "Book of the Anc. & Accepted Scottish Rite" isn't a "RITUAL" at all...and anything posted from it isn't a "Ritual" That's a Monitor...a book of the "exoteric" (non-secret) portions of a ritual. This "Monitor" was for the rituals of the A&ASR of the Northern Masonic Jurisdiction as they existed at that time. The rituals of that jurisdiction have been altered so must that CTM's book is not even accurate anymore (even though it's an interesting reference...and a beautifully bound and printed book....I have two of them).

Just thought I'd point that out...if it's helpful then so be it...if not....well, it didn't cost you anything.





posted on Jul, 3 2005 @ 02:38 PM
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Originally posted by MrNECROS
Note the disclaimer stating that if you read this section or higher without attaining the pre-existing grades you will be automatically expelled from the Scottish Rite:

www.freemasonry101.org.uk...


Uuuuuuuuuhh, I don't see ANY such disclaimer. What the hell are you talking about? NOBODY in Freemasonry would ever make such a disclaimer, and this is obvious because there is no such disclaimer in the link you posted.

Maybe you are seeing things again, like people you know are Freemasons, even though they all deny it. Hmmmm, imagine that...


Maybe you should start taking your medicine again...?



posted on Jul, 3 2005 @ 07:31 PM
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Originally posted by MrNECROS
Here are some of your contributions to the original posting of the rituals...
Ring any bells?


Like the ones in your head?


Originally posted by senrak

MasonicLight,

Cerneauism also exists today in the form of the irregular "Supreme Council of Louisiana" which confers the 1st-33rd Degrees. It's a small group but very active. I have a full set of their rituals and they're pretty impressive. They're quite different in places from Jonathan Blanchard's "Scotch-Rite Masonry, Illustrated." BTW, since this thread had changed to "Cerneauism"
If you're interested in such things I'm currently working on a book that is supposed to be printed by Lost Word Books/Anchor Communications (i.e. Mike Poll) that deals with the Cerneau group that sprang up in New York in the 1880's under the direction of William H. Peckham. It's commonly called the Cerneau-Peckham Supreme Council. I'm writing a brief history of the organization (because it was short-lived) and reprinting it's 4th - 32nd Degree Rituals (which contain some "Pike" influence.)

-Senrak


Yep. I said that, when ML mentioned the Cerneau Rite.

What in the hell does that have to do with anything?

A version of the irregular Cerneau Scottish Rite still exists in New Orleans.

If you will read this (and the original post) in it's context...that is if you CAN read. This is NOT calling your precious CTM's Book of the A&A Rite "Cerneau" It's Not. It's a 19th Century Northern Masonic Jurisidiction Scottish Rite Monitor. How many times should I say this?

I've said REPEATEDLY REPEATEDLY REPEATEDLY that the book you posted was used by the NMJ. It was NEVER secret. It was NEVER hidden from the general public. ANYONE could purchase it. It's STILL available in re-print (but I've said that over and over as well)

It IS (IS IS IS IS IS IS) out of date. Even the NAMES of many of the degrees aren't the same any more in the Northern Masonic Jurisdiction....and the rituals are VERY different than they used to be.

Don't believe it? Check out the titles of the Degrees of the Northern Jurisdiction NOW vs. the ones in your book.

www.philascottishrite.org...


YOUR book calls the 4th Degree "Secret Master"

What is it now?

Was there a "Brother of the Forest" (24th Degree) in YOURS? Nope.

YOURS was a different title wasn't it?

How 'bout the 30th Degree? Isn't YOURS called "Knight Kadosh"

Hmmmm NOW it's called "Knight Aspirant"

WOW! Things SURE have changed since the 1800's when your book was published, haven't they?

25th Degree...Master of Achievement? THAT'S not what your old book says...

BUT it IS an excellent historical book. Active NMJ Scottish Rite Masons and other Masonic students would be proud to own it.

Too bad it's in the hands of someone who has no freakin' idea what it is.

...or what ANYTHING is for that matter.

Go away Necros.

You're old news.


[edit on 3-7-2005 by senrak]



posted on Jul, 5 2005 @ 01:28 AM
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Originally posted by umwolves123
why is it that Non-masons believe in this so called "inner circle" of freemasoner unknown to most freemasons. doesnt the thought ever occer to them, if most freemasons dont know about it then how could WE possibly know about it?



It's fairly irrelevant how many Masons don't believe it exists because the whole point is that they are supposed to not believe it exists. They would even in all likelihood be conditioned through the initiations to be especially blind toward it. It is also to be expected that a Mason,by virtue of being a Mason themselves,would reflexively reject this belief out of defense for their own. The same way that if a child is told of wrongdoings by his or her parents they would reject the charges and refuse to believe their parents capable of such a thing. Even if they are. So that's one major reason why non-Masons believe in the inner circle despite Masons claiming otherwise.




this is not the only sight i have found on this subject either.

www.cuttingedge.org...

am i the only one who is upset by this? what does everyone else think?


I think I don't understand why there are so many posts on this because by design it can't go anywhere. If the inner circle exists,most if not all of the Masons here would be too low to be aware of it. And if there are any high enough to know it's true,they obviously aren't going to admit it. And if the circle doesn't exist,denials from Masons aren't going to do anything to shake opinions because the believer in the circle will naturally just assume the Masons are either duped or trying to keep up the lie out of fellowship.

It's an automatic impasse.

[edit on 5-7-2005 by Loungerist]



posted on Jul, 5 2005 @ 01:48 AM
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Originally posted by Loungerist
It's fairly irrelevant how many Masons don't believe it exists because the whole point is that they are supposed to not believe it exists. They would even in all likelihood be conditioned through the initiations to be especially blind toward it.


You think that 3 1-hour initiations are enough to condition someone towards something like that? Our rituals are available on the internet. You tell me if you can find ANYTHING there that would be used to condition us in any way. Well...?



It is also to be expected that a Mason,by virtue of being a Mason themselves,would reflexively reject this belief out of defense for their own.


Or maybe it's because we know how the fraternity works and we know that there is complete transparency in the workings of the Grand Lodges. Also, we know that there is NO SUCH THING as an "elite inner-circle" of Freemasons because there has never been ANY evidence to demonstrate such a thing. We've all known PLENTY of high-degree masons, and still there's no evidence of an elite upper-echelon. We know that Freemasonry is run by a Grand Lodge in each jurisdiction, and we know that the Grand Lodges must answer to all Master Masons.



The same way that if a child is told of wrongdoings by his or her parents they would reject the charges and refuse to believe their parents capable of such a thing.


This is not applicable because we do not rely on Freemasonry to live or be well, and ALL Freemasons would want to know of ANY wrongdoing in the fraternity so that we could correct it and maintain honor in our fraternity. Nobody wants to be in an organization in which any kind of wrongdoing could be occurring.



So that's one major reason why non-Masons believe in the inner circle despite Masons claiming otherwise.


Wrong. Conspiracy theorists believe in this for the same reasons they believe in the Illuminati and gov't cover-ups: it makes a good story! The truth, fortunately, is very boring. Freemasonry is just a private organizations where members learn to be charitable and honorable, and more faithful towards their religion. Theorists ALWAYS look for things where there is nothing, and theorize about anything that their imagination will allow them to. But there is a reason why they have never supported their claims with solid evidence.



If the inner circle exists,most if not all of the Masons here would be too low to be aware of it.


Again, this claim is completely absurd. All masons are completely equal. We are all members of a lodge with one vote. We all know what goes on in our Grand Lodges. There is no such thing as a "high-ranking" or "low-ranking" mason. But if you are referring to masons with high honors, we have several of those here on this site as well. They will also tell you there is nothing of the sort going on.



And if the circle doesn't exist,denials from Masons aren't going to do anything to shake opinions because the believer in the circle will naturally just assume the Masons are either duped or trying to keep up the lie out of fellowship.


The problem is that people don't want to listen to reason and logic.

[edit on 5-7-2005 by sebatwerk]



posted on Jul, 5 2005 @ 02:50 AM
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Originally posted by sebatwerk

You think that 3 1-hour initiations are enough to condition someone towards something like that? Our rituals are available on the internet. You tell me if you can find ANYTHING there that would be used to condition us in any way. Well...?


Are you suggesting that if an inner circle existed,they would put that in what's made available online? Or make the conditioning overt enough that those being conditioned could plainly see it and point it out?





Or maybe it's because we know how the fraternity works and we know that there is complete transparency in the workings of the Grand Lodges. Also, we know that there is NO SUCH THING as an "elite inner-circle" of Freemasons because there has never been ANY evidence to demonstrate such a thing. We've all known PLENTY of high-degree masons, and still there's no evidence of an elite upper-echelon.


No,there is lots of evidence of an inner circle. There is a difference between evidence and absolute proof. And you believe they would simply provide this evidence freely to you if there was an elite upper echelon?




We know that Freemasonry is run by a Grand Lodge in each jurisdiction, and we know that the Grand Lodges must answer to all Master Masons.


And you believing you know all that goes on does not mean that you actually do. Many have thought they knew all about an organization only to find out they were wrong. There's a reason these things are called secrets. You're not supposed to know them.








This is not applicable because we do not rely on Freemasonry to live or be well, and ALL Freemasons would want to know of ANY wrongdoing in the fraternity so that we could correct it and maintain honor in our fraternity. Nobody wants to be in an organization in which any kind of wrongdoing could be occurring.


Reliance isn't necessary. All that's necessary is personal endearment toward the organization. That's why friends and family of the accused are not allowed on juries. And while it sounds good to say all Masons may want to know of wrongdoings,it does not mean that they would believe it if they were told.








Wrong. Conspiracy theorists believe in this for the same reasons they believe in the Illuminati and gov't cover-ups: it makes a good story!



Well if you don't even believe government cover-ups exist then it's easy to see why you might miss a Freemason cover-up if one existed. Because government cover-ups have been documented to exist and are often rather blatant. The very fact that some people can actually be fooled into believing only what they see or don't see on the news is a blaring example of how easy it is to keep a secret hidden.




Again, this claim is completely absurd. All masons are completely equal. We are all members of a lodge with one vote. We all know what goes on in our Grand Lodges. There is no such thing as a "high-ranking" or "low-ranking" mason. But if you are referring to masons with high honors, we have several of those here on this site as well. They will also tell you there is nothing of the sort going on.


Naturally. One would expect nothing else.







The problem is that people don't want to listen to reason and logic.


The problem is that the the subject has a built in impasse. Obviously if an inner circle exists it's members aren't going to admit it and will try to cover it up. And if the circle doesn't exist,the accused tossing out denials in their own self-interest isn't going to change anyone's mind.



posted on Jul, 5 2005 @ 11:35 AM
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This entire thread reminds me of the situation back in the '50's when the Dulles brothers were running the State Department. If you didn't agree with them, then you had a "blind spot" [or you were an evil co-conspirator]. You could never be right.

Masons will never agree there's an "inner circle" nefariously running things to bring about the collapse of civilization as we know it and the rise of the Antichrist [or whatever they're supposed to be doing. This week.] And the anti-Mason faction will never be convinced this is not the case. "Oh, you CAN'T know because you're not 'in on it' " and your blind spot and all. Doo dah doo dah.

Leave the nice Masons alone. There's real evil out there to combat. Don't play into the misdirection, intentional or otherwise.



posted on Jul, 5 2005 @ 12:47 PM
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Are you suggesting that if an inner circle existed,they would put that in what's made available online? Or make the conditioning overt enough that those being conditioned could plainly see it and point it out?

Having gone throug the Craft Lodge degrees as well as performed them, I can assure you that no such thing exists. There is no brainwashing, no conditioning, no subliminal messages and no hidden agendas. I personally know a few Grand Lodge officers and can attest that they are not involved in any funny business of any sort.



And you believing you know all that goes on does not mean that you actually do. Many have thought they knew all about an organization only to find out they were wrong. There's a reason these things are called secrets. You're not supposed to know them.

Reliance isn't necessary. All that's necessary is personal endearment toward the organization. That's why friends and family of the accused are not allowed on juries. And while it sounds good to say all Masons may want to know of wrongdoings,it does not mean that they would believe it if they were told.

These a VERY general statement and could be true of ANY organization, the difference is that Masonry is founded on morality and friendship, and has a structure in place to prevent such misdeeds.



No,there is lots of evidence of an inner circle. There is a difference between evidence and absolute proof. And you believe they would simply provide this evidence freely to you if there was an elite upper echelon?

And yet you say that there is lots of evidence freely available to everyone except Masons?



posted on Jul, 5 2005 @ 12:59 PM
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Originally posted by umwolves123
why is it that Non-masons believe in this so called "inner circle" of freemasoner unknown to most freemasons. doesnt the thought ever occer to them, if most freemasons dont know about it then how could WE possibly know about it? or possibly that they just cant find anything "evil" about freemasonery so they must creat it so as people will be drivin off and into THEIR arms.

this is not the only sight i have found on this subject either.

www.cuttingedge.org...

am i the only one who is upset by this? what does everyone else think?



Is it true that the freemasons claimed to be responsible for building solomons temple even though they didn't ? If so, I'd say most of the unwanted attention stems from the association with the knights templar via the solomons temple connection

.02



posted on Jul, 5 2005 @ 01:09 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5
You are never going to get a Christian organization to agree that Cabala, Hermeticism, or Gnosticism are acceptable to the path a Christian should be walking down.


let's clear up the meaning of occult. it simply means hidden. it is not evil, unless what's hidden is evil. it is possible to hide good things, too. and sometimes necessary, to avoid persecution by the forces of evil.

i totally disagree with yer statement there. especially regarding gnosticism, as gnosticism is a christian path.
maybe, you're thinking a catholic, which is certainly not the definitive christian.
like creation and evolution, not all things that are painted as polar opposites by popular myth, are actually mutually exclusive.

[edit on 5-7-2005 by billybob]



posted on Jul, 5 2005 @ 01:52 PM
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Originally posted by syrinx high priest
Is it true that the freemasons claimed to be responsible for building solomons temple even though they didn't ? If so, I'd say most of the unwanted attention stems from the association with the knights templar via the solomons temple connection

.02


No. Our traditions and teachings are BASED UPON the building of the (alleged) Temple of Solomon. We do NOT claim to have actually done it.

Freemasonry wasn't organized as such until 1717 (certainly a few Lodges existed before then, otherwise there'd have been no one to "organize" but it didn't exist LONG before 1717)



posted on Jul, 5 2005 @ 02:56 PM
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Today almost no freemason will actually think that Solomon was a master of a lodge or that Hiram Abif was a 'master of work' and that King Hiram was also a master, or that an actual lodge was operating in the temple, etc etc, however, in the past, apparently, the more 'credulous brothers' used to accept this as fact. Of course, this is from a time when the bible itself was credulously accepted as a factual historical book too.



posted on Jul, 5 2005 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
Today almost no freemason will actually think that Solomon was a master of a lodge or that Hiram Abif was a 'master of work' and that King Hiram was also a master, or that an actual lodge was operating in the temple, etc etc, however, in the past, apparently, the more 'credulous brothers' used to accept this as fact. Of course, this is from a time when the bible itself was credulously accepted as a factual historical book too.


That's a good point Nygdan! In fact some of the older members of my Mother-Lodge seemed to truly BELIEVE that King Solomon ran around with a Square & Compasses around his neck and a Lambskin apron around his waist and that Hiram the Builder was murdered by three ruffians with silly names.


I actually heard one of these brothers (upon whom be peace) tell a new member that the allegory of the ritual (the Hiram Abif story) was found IN IT'S ENTIRETY in the Bible. I nearly passed out...and needless to say, took the new brother aside and cleared that up.



posted on Jul, 5 2005 @ 11:32 PM
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Originally posted by Loungerist
Are you suggesting that if an inner circle existed,they would put that in what's made available online? Or make the conditioning overt enough that those being conditioned could plainly see it and point it out?


Surely if there was something in the ritual that could be used to condition us in some way, you should be able to find it, no?



No,there is lots of evidence of an inner circle. There is a difference between evidence and absolute proof. And you believe they would simply provide this evidence freely to you if there was an elite upper echelon?


So what is it? What is this EVIDENCE that at least demonstrates that this theory may be correct?!? In all my time as a mason, I have never heard ANYTHING credible to support the existence of an elite "upper echelon".

One of the biggest reasons why there can be no single "upper echelon" is because all of the masonic jurisdiction operate independently of each other. There is no single Grand Lodge controlling all other Grand Lodges. Here in the US, we have 51 different jurisdictions which are all in recognition with each other. Throughout the world, there are over 1000 masonic jurisdictions which control everything masonic in their area. There is no "inner-circle" because all of these jurisdictions operate independently.



And you believing you know all that goes on does not mean that you actually do. Many have thought they knew all about an organization only to find out they were wrong. There's a reason these things are called secrets. You're not supposed to know them.


Looks, this rumor has been around for a long time, and I have never been given A SINGLE decent reason to believe this might be true. The only argument I've ever heard against this is:

"How do you know it's NOT true?"

Sorry, but that is NOT enough to demonstrate that an "elite inner circle" of freemasons exists. It's silly and NOBODY in Freemasonry believes in this.



All that's necessary is personal endearment toward the organization. That's why friends and family of the accused are not allowed on juries. And while it sounds good to say all Masons may want to know of wrongdoings,it does not mean that they would believe it if they were told.


Uuuuuh, that's not true. There have been many scandals and wrongdoings in Freemasonry in the past. Everytime something like this has been discovered, the perpetrators were promptly bhanned from the fraternity. Masons hold their fraternity in VERY high esteem. They don't stand for ANYTHING that might otherwise give the fraternity a bad name.



Well if you don't even believe government cover-ups exist then it's easy to see why you might miss a Freemason cover-up if one existed. Because government cover-ups have been documented to exist and are often rather blatant. The very fact that some people can actually be fooled into believing only what they see or don't see on the news is a blaring example of how easy it is to keep a secret hidden.


Oh Good God, you completely misunderstood what I just said. I don't mean obvious cover-ups like Watergate and Lewinskigate, I'm talking about all the bogus theories such as cover-ups of UFO crashes and aliens being held in facilities and that the 9/11 attacks were actually perpetrated by our gov't, etc etc. THAT'S what I mean by government cover-ups, the ridiculous ones. Jeez...



The problem is that the the subject has a built in impasse. Obviously if an inner circle exists it's members aren't going to admit it and will try to cover it up. And if the circle doesn't exist,the accused tossing out denials in their own self-interest isn't going to change anyone's mind.


Whatever you say dude. The simple fact of the matter is that neither you nor anyone else has evidence of such a thing going on. The very structure of Freemasonry does not allow for the existence of such an "elite inner-circle", but if you want to believe in the tooth-fairy, be my guest. :shk:



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