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posted on Jun, 28 2005 @ 06:16 PM
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In many ways Mr Necross has been the a very good thing in Freemasonry attracting new members because he makes accusations that are crazy and beyond belief. He has serious problems with Freemasonry in that he genuinely believes that Freemasons have given him drugs and abused his toilet. Why did he not report this to the police so that his claims could be investigated?.

As a Freemason I can talk about my fraternity with one exception. I will not tell non Freemasons the means by which a Freemason is known. The penalty would be for me to become a man with no honour. Freemasons do not murder people who break their word of honour we see them as being men who have no honour.

Freemasonry is not out to run the World as some people believe. If you look at the history of the 20th Cen Freemasons were murdered in Nazi Germany and Russia. As a young Freemason of only 16 years I see the benefit of Freemasonry in my life. Freemasons are men who have a very strong belief in morality and helping other people. In Scotland all the orders gave £250,000 to a children's charity to set up a hospice. You will find that Freemasons are a part of the community and do things that often never get a mention in the press.

I am not saying that all Freemasons are perfect but I will say this that in Scotland I have a Masonic obligation to report any Freemason who breaks the law. When a Freemason breaks the law he will be punished and often this means being expelled from Freemasonry.








posted on Jun, 28 2005 @ 06:35 PM
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Gerard is right. We have all taken obligations to protect our brethren, but we have also taken an obligation to uphold the laws of our country, as well as the laws of Freemasonry. If a brother breaks either of those laws, it is our duty to report him or remedy the situation in some way because that brethren could damage the reputation and honor of our fraternity. To a Freemason, that is ALWAYS more important than protecting another mason.



posted on Jun, 28 2005 @ 11:25 PM
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Originally posted by umwolves123

for the most part i beleive i agree with you. the only question i have is that i'm not sure what futurism is. i've never heard of this before, can you explain it alittle?


Futurism is a style of prophetic interpretation There are three main ones Futurism, Historicism, and Preterism.

Futurism is the type of interpretation that says there will be a 7 year end time’s tribulation, a New World Order, a single all powerful Antichrist, etc. The 7 year part is come up with by taking the last week of Daniels prophecy of 70 weeks and moving that week to a future point in time, so the entire end times occur in that period. It was an interpretation that came from the Jesuit order, under the RCC. It is pretty much what movies and books such as: “Left Behind”, “End of Days”, “The Seventh Sign”, and others are about. It is the most popular today and is accepted by many protestant churches now, though it should not be.

Historicism is a belief that all the major protestant reformers originally held. Guys like Luther, Calvin, and Wesley all believed this. It leaves the last week of Daniel where it was and states that this verse related to Christ fulfilling the covenant and ending the need for any sacrifice in the future. All the rest of the prophecies unfold from three years after Christ’s death until his second coming. To me this is the most accurate, but it has lost much of its popularity since it teaches that Rome is the Forth Beast of Daniel and hence the First Beast in Revelations. It is not considered politically correct enough anymore, and since being true now a days runs a close second to be politically correct, a lot of people don’t like it nor want to hear it.

Preterism was similarly brought to us through the Jesuit order and is what you should believe if you are a Catholic today. Its main teaching is that the prophecies of Daniel related to the persecution of the Jews under Antiochus Epiphanies and that Revelations, though written in the same symbolism, is about the persecution of the Christian Church in Rome during the days of Emperor Nero.




[edit on 6/28/2005 by defcon5]



posted on Jun, 28 2005 @ 11:26 PM
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Originally posted by mrfixit
Oh my Lord here we go again. Another "your all a bunch of devil worshiping fools" with the standard "go do your homework and return" responses.

I don't know that anyone has admitted anything of the sort defcon5.


I don’t believe that I specifically said devil worshiping anywhere, I simply stated that there are symbols and rituals contained in masonry that have roots in Cabala (Jewish White Magic), Hermeticism (Pagan with a Pantheon of gods) And Gnosticism (Salvation through Arcane Knowledge). This has pretty much been explained to me here on other threads by masons, such as Masonic Light, which obviously have a deeper understanding of what your rituals are based on then you do.


Originally posted by mrfixit
Symbols can have several different meanings. YOU are the one that chooses what that particular symbol means to you or what you choose to think about when you see that particular symbol.


I think that if you ask any person here that has had any dealing with the Occult, Wicca, etc. You will find that there are symbols that have occult power to them, like it or not. Though it is not a big issue to my particular church, I personally do not believe in the use of any graven images for this reason.


Originally posted by mrfixit
As far as Paganism, modern day Christianity and Catholicism have embedded many Pagan rituals and symbols themselves. The modern day Church is a loooooong way from where Christ envisioned it to be or in other words, many of the modern day Christians aren't Christians but merely Pharisaical morons claiming to be something they aren't.


You are partly correct here. Yes the RCC did in fact embrace many Pagan rituals and such, and at the time it might have seemed the best way to win people over from Pagan religions and to protect the Christians that lived among Pagans, but that does not make it right. Nor does it mean that ALL Christian religions similarly follow those practices, if you recall a bit of history there was a small incident known as the Protestant Reformation which purged much of the Paganism from the mainstream Protestant Churches. These Pagan non-biblical practices were one of the major issues that Martin Luther had against the RCC to begin with.


Originally posted by mrfixit
Do you allow your children to dress up and go "trick or treating" on Halloween? Do you realize that Halloween is perhaps one of the most obvious of the Satanic holidays? Think about that as you cut out the evil face in the pumpkin and dress your children up as goblins.


This is why many Churches now shy away from the calibration of Halloween, and many have NEVER endorsed it to begin with.


Originally posted by mrfixit
What about Christmas? Have you researched Christmas? You claim to be celebrating the birth of the Christ child but most scholars agree he wasn't actually born until sometime in the spring. So why are we celebrating his birth in December you might ask. Well it just so happens there is a Pagan holiday around that time and the Christians of old needed an excuse to celebrate with the Pagans so now you have Christmas. Think about that as you decorate your tree and spend thousands on gifts.


Well the tree and the presents tradition is not from the church to begin with, that is a man made thing that does date back to Pagan origins according to some to the days of Nimrod (the Tower of Babel). The rest you can thank the RCC for, they chose to make it a Christian holiday. Again not all Christians celebrate this either.


Originally posted by mrfixit
I suggest before you all start pointing fingers and condemning everyone to hell you take a look at your own lifestyles and rituals that you celebrate.


Actually I do not personally believe in graven images, nor do I believe in celebrating holidays that are not specifically mentioned in the bible. Similarly I also hold that the TRUE Sabbath day is Saturday not Sunday since this is also a RCC/Pagan influx into the Christian faith.

So if your idea here is to use things that are wrong with the Church to say it’s ok to have things that are wrong in another organization, sorry will not work on me. In my opinion things are either of God and are right, or they are of something else and they are wrong in any organization…


[edit on 6/28/2005 by defcon5]



posted on Jun, 28 2005 @ 11:27 PM
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Originally posted by sebatwerk
And if you're hypocritical enough to chastise Freemasons for their rituals, then you better fess up about celebrating Halloween.


I think I have fessed up my beliefs on Halloween above and do not need to go further into that.


Originally posted by sebatwerk
Freemasons and their rituals are equivalent to Halloween. It doesn't matter what the rituals meant back then, only what they are and what they mean NOW to the persons performing them. Like mrfixit said: if you believe you are praying to a Christian God, you are. If you believe you are praying to satan, you are.


The problem I have with Masonry is that it is diametrically opposed to Christianity though it masks itself as being compatible. Anyone that is a Christian should be aware of the quote, “Saved by Grace”, yet your morality plays teach you what? Something more along the line of Gnosticism, am I right? That to be and upright Masonic man you must seek the light, and knowledge. Salvation through Knowledge! If you recall correctly what was the whole main message of the story of The Fall of Man in Genesis? Was it not that man chose to be as God by choosing the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil(Law), over the Tree of Life (Grace).

Personally it makes little difference to me what you guys believe, I believe that each of us has to face God and make an accounting some day, and at least I have tried to explain this from as non-inflammatory, and logical position as I can. If you want to still believe that this is compatible with Christianity, then fine, you’re fooling yourself, but fine; I just wish you all would be more up front with other Christians that are considering this path.



[edit on 6/28/2005 by defcon5]



posted on Jun, 28 2005 @ 11:43 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5
Anyone that is a Christian should be aware of the quote, “saved by grace”, yet your morality plays teach you what? Something more along the line of Gnosticism, am I right? That to be and upright Masonic man you must seek the light, and knowledge. Salvation through Knowledge!


That is absolutely INCORRECT! Freemasonry makes no promise or mention of salvation through anything! Freemasonry is not a religion and does not concern itself with religious issues. Freemasonry teaches that knowledge is the way to understanding, and the way to a good life. Salvation is for your religion to worry about.



If you want to still believe that this is compatible with Christianity, then fine, you’re fooling yourself, but fine; I just wish you all would be more up front with other Christians that are considering this path.


Fooling myself... according to who? You? Come on buddy, don't be so damn arrogant. You're the one fooling yourself, because you're doing a terrible job fooling us. Freemasonry has nothing to do with Christianity nor any other religion. It does not offer salvation, it does not provide answers about our origins, it does not hold any theological beliefs nor teach any such lessons.

Freemasonry is concerned with helping men attain a better life, and be better prepared for death, through knowledge, understanding, charity, honor, love, friendship, faith, truth and justice. It encourages us to follow our own religions to the best of our ability, and to be upstanding, law-abiding, GIVING men. How that can be incompatible with ANY religion, I don't know. You must have a very warped sense of what Freemasonry is in order to believe that. But I'll tell you one thing: if what Freemasonry teaches is wrong, I don't wanna be right.



posted on Jun, 29 2005 @ 12:17 AM
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Originally posted by sebatwerk
Freemasonry is concerned with helping men attain a better life, and be better prepared for death, through knowledge, understanding, charity, honor, love, friendship, faith, truth and justice.


Masonry showing you how to live/die better through works and knowledge, in a non-religious sort of way of course, then acceptance of Grace…



Originally posted by sebatwerk
Freemasonry is not a religion and does not concern itself with religious issues


Originally posted by sebatwerk
helping men attain a better life, and be better prepared for death


Am I the only one here that sees the direct conflict in these remarks? Is it not the job of a Religion to show you how to lead a better life and to prepare you for death. What is there to prepare for in death anyway but salvation, yet you claim they don’t teach that? So what is the magical thing that masonry can show me that is going to make my life or death better then my religion can, considering that they will not show me how to lead a Christian life, nor ensure my salvation?


Originally posted by sebatwerk
How that can be incompatible with ANY religion, I don't know




Tit 3:5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

2Ti 1:9 who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,

Eph 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;


Now I am not saying that we should as Christians not want to do good works, but you are not supposed to count on them to make you a Christian man, and you are not supposed to do them in the open like the masons are quite fond of doing…



Mat 6:2 When therefore thou doest alms, sound not a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have received their reward.
Mat 6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
Mat 6:4 that thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret shall recompense thee.



You have now completely confused me. So basically, Masonry does nothing to add to the quality of my life as a Christian since they don’t teach salvation and the bible should be all I need to teach me how to lead a Godly life. Though they are not a religion they feel they are qualified to instruct me on my morality. They are going to add a whole bunch of pagan stuff to my life that was not there before. All this just so I can do works that I can do though a church or another organization in secret, which is more in line with what the scriptures teach. So at what point should Christian say yes this sounds like a great deal?


[edit on 6/29/2005 by defcon5]



posted on Jun, 29 2005 @ 12:37 AM
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Originally posted by defcon5
Am I the only one here that sees the direct conflict in these remarks? Is it not the job of a Religion to show you how to lead a better life and to prepare you for death. What is there to prepare for in death anyway but salvation, yet you claim they don’t teach that? So what is the magical thing that masonry can show me that is going to make my life or death better then my religion can, considering that they will not show me how to lead a Christian life, nor ensure my salvation?


Did I ever say anything about Freemasonry teaching a man how to live a CHRISTIAN life? Or just a GOOD, UPSTANDING life? Don't twist my words, I was very specific in what I said. Charity, love, friendship, honor, truth, justice are ALL ways to live a good life. Religion has NOTHING to do with this.

As for death, again I made no mention of life after death, salvation, the soul, spirit, etc. etc. I simply stated that through knowledge, Freemasonry can help us better understand our mortality and become better prepared for whatever death may bring. Whatever happens AFTER death is for your own religion to teach you, but Freemasonry's teachings opf mortality also have NOTHING to do with religion or theology.



Now I am not saying that we should as Christians not want to do good works, but you are not supposed to count on them to make you a Christian man, and you are not supposed to do them in the open like the masons are quite fond of doing…


I never said good works make you a better Christian. I said they make you a better man.

And most masons that I know, including myself, donate money ANONYMOUSLY. Shriners don't ask for individual recognition for their charity, neither do masonic lodges. The only time in which our charity is made public by us is when we are being attacked, such as me being attacked now by you, and forced to PROVE to people that we are an incredibly charitable group.



You have now completely confused me. So basically, Masonry does nothing to add to the quality of my life as a Christian since they don’t teach salvation and the bible should be all I need to teach me how to lead a Godly life. Though they are not a religion they feel they are qualified to instruct me on my morality. They are going to add a whole bunch of pagan stuff to my life that was not there before. All this just so I can do works that I can do though a church or another organization in secret, which is more in line with what the scriptures teach. So at what point should Christian say yes this sounds like a great deal?


Like I said before, you have an incredibly twisted view of what Freemasonry is and does. And when did I ever say that Freemasonry adds anything "pagan" to your life? What the hell are you talking about?!?



posted on Jun, 29 2005 @ 01:43 AM
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so I am showing you a Christian’s perspective on this topic.

Secondly I am not attacking masonry; I am simply stating that it is not compatible with Christianity. I am not the one with the twisted view of masonry or anything, but I think either your not a Christian, not very well trained as one, or have a twisted view of what it teaches to even sit and deny what I am nicely trying to explain. As far as the pagan stuff goes, you know very good and well to what I am referring. This is not the only thread you and I have discussed things in, and there was another one recently were the topic was similar and the relation to Pagan religions came up. Then there was a thread on this forum, once upon a time, where a mason was going to divulge the secrets of Masonry and it was straight out admitted by one mason that masonry was based in the things I mentioned above.



Originally posted by sebatwerk
Did I ever say anything about Freemasonry teaching a man how to live a CHRISTIAN life? Or just a GOOD, UPSTANDING life? Don't twist my words, I was very specific in what I said. Charity, love, friendship, honor, truth, justice are ALL ways to live a good life. Religion has NOTHING to do with this.


If you are a Christian then Religion has to do with everything that you let into your life, which would include this organization if a Christian were to be a member. The fact that you make this hair splitting distinction in the verbiage above tells me that if you were a Christian you are one that starts the second you hit the church door and stops once you hit the exit. That you containerize your life so from Sunday morning until 1200 I am a Christian, but the rest of the weekend I am an Upstanding Masonic Man. For real Christians that is not the way it works and of course they are going to throw down the alarm to keep others from going to do this sort of thing, and they have that right same as you do to defend it.

But riddle me this: as a Christian under what authority does this organization feel that it has the ability to instruct a Christian in morality beyond what he is instructed in the bible?

And as a Christian why should I feel that they have the Authority to supersede the instruction that the bible gives, or to even add to or expound upon it?



morality
Definition:
1) concern with the distinction between good and evil or right and wrong; right or good conduct
2) motivation based on ideas of right and wrong


So again considering that morality is dealing with the distinction between good and evil, and that they feel qualified to teach morality from some secret knowledge that masonry holds, how is this anything less then “Knowledge of Good and Evil” by definition?

Is this why so much of masonry goes back into the Psudopigraphal Enochian books used by Cabalists and Gnostics, such as Enoch, the Secrets of Enoch and so on that expound upon Genesis?


[edit on 6/29/2005 by defcon5]



posted on Jun, 29 2005 @ 02:32 AM
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Hi defcon5

Having read your postings over the last few months, and particularly on this thread, you should know that I respect your position on the incompatibility between freemasonry and Christianity. It's nice to see someone with a consistent opinion on things. You certainly won't find me trying to convince you about freemasonry being either one thing or another.

However there are one or two innacuracies/misunderstandings in your posts that I just wanted to clear up.

1. Freemasonry offers no salvation, and does not teach salvation through works. This is a hypothesis developed by a number of specific christian anti-masons on the premise that (a) masons pray to a masonic god and (b) the Hiramic legend within freemasonry is quasi-resurrection symbolism demonstating that masons can achieve everlasting life through Hiram Abiff. Both of these assertions are based on misreading or misunderstanding ritual, combined with a complete dismissal of evidence to the contrary.

I can categorically assure you that neither of these are true, the evidence is there for those who wish to pursue it.

2. Freemasonry is not a religion. I've gone over this countless times before in detail and I hope you'll forgive me for not repeating it all here. Try

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...


Is it not the job of a Religion to show you how to lead a better life and to prepare you for death.

Agreed.


What is there to prepare for in death anyway but salvation, yet you claim they don’t teach that?
That is correct, but that is not the same as saying freemasons are not in expectation of, or working towards salvation. All Christian freemasons are perfectly aware that salvation is only available through the Lord Jesus Christ. Freemasony says something like... "if your religion teaches salvation, you'd better pay attention to it's requirements".


So what is the magical thing that masonry can show me that is going to make my life or death better then my religion can, considering that they will not show me how to lead a Christian life, nor ensure my salvation?

Many people have way too high expectation of what freemasonry can do from a religious angle. All it does is back up religion and many christians with deeply held religious beliefs who are completely fulfilled through their relationship with God and their local church see no benefit in joining. And they are right. If all you are concerned about is salvation there is nothing freemasonry can add to your current relationship with the Lord.

But freemasonry is a fraternity, not a religion. It encourages spiritual development through an insistence that its members study their own religion. It enable a wide variety of people, who would never normally have met, to get to know each other and understand their differences. And perhaps most importantly, it allows us to focus on the changes we need to make within ourselves in order to become better people. And 'becoming better people' can most certainly be interpreted as 'better able to focus on the message of the Lord'.



Tit 3:5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

2Ti 1:9 who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,

Eph 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Just because good works is not necessarily a criteria for salvation is not a reason not to practice them, I hope you'll agree. Freemasonry is a fine embodiment of 'love one another, as I have loved you' and 'love thy neighbour as thyself'. Jesus wasn't averse to a bit of veiled allegory himself, and the parable of the Good Samaritan finds many parallels in modern-day freemasonry.


Now I am not saying that we should as Christians not want to do good works, but you are not supposed to count on them to make you a Christian man, and you are not supposed to do them in the open like the masons are quite fond of doing…

You do agree. Good. Many Christian freemasons would agree with your statement above completely. But this business of charitable giving leaves freemasonry damned if we do and damned if we don't. Even you earlier asked me whay is the point of joining freemasonry? Part of the reason is learning the lesson of Giving. Freemasons have always historically worked behind the scenes in this respect, and you would be amazed at the work freemasonry and freemasons do in this area. But if I tell you what any of it is I'll be accused of blowing my own trumpet.



Mat 6:2 When therefore thou doest alms, sound not a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have received their reward.
Mat 6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
Mat 6:4 that thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret shall recompense thee.

Uh-oh. Do you think this passage is telling us that giving in secret will help us get into heaven?


You have now completely confused me.

Let me relieve your burden, brother


So basically, Masonry does nothing to add to the quality of my life as a Christian since they don’t teach salvation and the bible should be all I need to teach me how to lead a Godly life.

Correct in part. The first is certainly true, as for the second please be aware that different Christians have different ideas of what is required to get into heaven. From your apparent perspective I would say the whole statement is true.


Though they are not a religion they feel they are qualified to instruct me on my morality.

No. You are constantly told that the Bible (in your case) is the place where all the answers are, and that is the place to go to get them. The 'morality plays' are all based on stories from the Old Testament. Freemasonry is a framework -of itself it tells you nothing.


All this just so I can do works that I can do though a church or another organization in secret...

There is nothing secret about freemasonry. Please tell me where you got this idea from.


So at what point should Christian say yes this sounds like a great deal?

Or, at what point would a Christian say this is a terrible thing to do?

Like I said at the beginning, I respect your opinion about freemasonry and your right to hold it. I just don't agree with it.



posted on Jun, 29 2005 @ 02:44 AM
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Just a follow up, if I may.


Originally posted by defcon5
But riddle me this: as a Christian under what authority does this organization feel that it has the ability to instruct a Christian in morality beyond what he is instructed in the bible?

And as a Christian why should I feel that they have the Authority to supersede the instruction that the bible gives, or to even add to or expound upon it?


I hope I have addressed this in my previous post, but just to clarify...

1. Freemasonry does not instuct anyone 'beyond' what is in the Bible. On the contrary, it tells freemasons who are Christian to turn to the Bible to get instruction. The morality of freemasonry is taken directly from the Bible.

2. Nothing is added or taken away from the Bible. It is the 'rule and guide of our faith'.

Freemasonry instructs Christians to read the Bible
Reading the Bible will help make people better Christians
Ipso Facto membership of freemasonry will help Christians become better Christians.

That's as complex as it gets.



posted on Jun, 29 2005 @ 04:31 AM
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Hello Trinityman

Thank you for that post, it was nicely put, informative, and the first time I have not been attacked for my opinions and questions on the subject of masonry. Most of the things that I have ever questioned have been from the religious perspective. I cannot say that my opinions have not changed somewhat over the last year in talking with masons on this forum, but the fact that I still find it to be in conflict with my Christian perspective have not. I have been repeatedly accused of being a denizen of the anti-mason websites out there, but the truth is that I have never actually read one beyond a mere browsing. Everything I say comes from my own knowledge and religious readings, and you might see me say something that you have seen on one of those sites, but it is not because I have read them, but simply that I have come to the same conclusion from a similar perspective.

To be honest as I have said before in other threads I have friends that are masons and that have tried for years to talk me into joining, I have one guy trying to get me to join with another of our friends just recently. So this is not a mason bashing fest from my perspective, simply me trying to explain what I believe and see if anyone out there can show me any different. The problem is that the depth of questions that I can go into on things is going to cross into the areas where all masons refuse to go on the grounds of their oaths, and thus I can never truly get those questions answered. Their usual joke to me is that I should join and find out for myself, but many of the questions I have are about the initiation to begin with.

I do understand without a doubt that the organization is set up as a fraternity, and that 99% of the members view it simply that way, that they are good guys and to them it’s just a charitable guys club. What worries me is that there are religious undertones, even if not overtly noticeable to the members that may be more sinister then most ever realize. I don’t believe there is an uber group within the organization that runs the world or crazy things like that, but I do believe that there are a few that know a bit more about the meanings and such then others do. Not that these guys are at some super secret higher level or anything, but more like some guys just enjoy watching a football game, while others memorize every statistic of every player of every game. Some are just not Christian to begin with and have no problem with accepting the other aspects of masonry.



Originally posted by Trinityman
All Christian freemasons are perfectly aware that salvation is only available through the Lord Jesus Christ. Freemasony says something like... "if your religion teaches salvation, you'd better pay attention to it's requirements".


If this is true and I were to wish to join would they wave my having to take an oath since I can only do so if commanded by the government such as being sworn into court?



Mat 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
Mat 5:34 but I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by the heaven, for it is the throne of God;
Mat 5:35 nor by the earth, for it is the footstool of his feet; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, for thou canst not make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 But let your speech be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: and whatsoever is more than these is of the evil one.


For a bunch of men that downplay what the oath is you all seem to stand by them pretty strictly. This is the Number one reason that most Churches give for excommunicating masons.


Originally posted by Trinityman
If all you are concerned about is salvation there is nothing freemasonry can add to your current relationship with the Lord.


I never said that all I am concerned with is salvation, but it is important. Salvation is assured by the Grace of God through Faith, it is not based on works which would even include joining the masons. That does not mean that if I suspect something is wrong I should go ahead and do it anyway.


Originally posted by Trinityman
But freemasonry is a fraternity, not a religion. It encourages spiritual development through an insistence that its members study their own religion. It enable a wide variety of people, who would never normally have met, to get to know each other and understand their differences. And perhaps most importantly, it allows us to focus on the changes we need to make within ourselves in order to become better people. And 'becoming better people' can most certainly be interpreted as 'better able to focus on the message of the Lord'.


That smells of Universalism, which while it may seem like a good thing from mans perspective is not something that comes from God. Again as I said above, something being true in this world now runs a close second to it being politically correct. Universalism is about as politically correct as it gets, but show me where it says that as a Christian you’re supposed to be learning to adapt the Christian religion so that it conforms better with any other religions out there. This is the second main reason most Churches give for the excommunication of Masons.


Originally posted by Trinityman
But this business of charitable giving leaves freemasonry damned if we do and damned if we don't. Even you earlier asked me what is the point of joining freemasonry? Part of the reason is learning the lesson of Giving. Freemasons have always historically worked behind the scenes in this respect, and you would be amazed at the work freemasonry and freemasons do in this area. But if I tell you what any of it is I'll be accused of blowing my own trumpet.

Oh come on, every time the masons do charitable stuff we get to see a picture of 10 guys in fez’s standing in a line in front of some building/statue/whatever they just donated. Every reader out there will not have to even give it a second thought we have all seen these pictures all over the place. Funny part now I think about it is how much most of those pictures look alike….



Originally posted by Trinityman


Mat 6:2 When therefore thou doest alms, sound not a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have received their reward.
Mat 6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
Mat 6:4 that thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret shall recompense thee.

Uh-oh. Do you think this passage is telling us that giving in secret will help us get into heaven?


Nope you are saved through grace, works count once you are in heaven.


Rev 14:13 And I heard the voice from heaven saying, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth: yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them.



Originally posted by Trinityman
No. You are constantly told that the Bible (in your case) is the place where all the answers are, and that is the place to go to get them. The 'morality plays' are all based on stories from the Old Testament. Freemasonry is a framework -of itself it tells you nothing.


Yes this is a serious question I have on the subject. You can say this is not a religion, but why is so much if it pulling from religion? Also why have they chosen the people to glorify that they have from the bible?

Let me give you a good example, hopefully without ticking you off so I won’t name names, but you should know who I am talking about. The person that your third degree is named after is a very obscure biblical character, he only ranks a one or two liner in the whole of the book. Yet he was chosen to be the 3rd degree mason representation of what a master mason is supposed to represent. Now if you read any of the Psudopigraphal texts that mention him, not a single one gives a very flattering description from a Christian or even Jewish perspective. Now I can see where someone of an occult background might revere him, but not the other two. So why choose someone from the cursed line of Cain, rather then someone from the Godly line of Seth?


Originally posted by Trinityman

All this just so I can do works that I can do though a church or another organization in secret...

There is nothing secret about freemasonry. Please tell me where you got this idea from.


You cut off my quote, and I think misunderstood it, I meant I can “do works in secret though the church” so as not to come off as “blowing my own trumpet”. However, are you saying there is nothing secret in masonry? I think that we have all seen that you guys are reluctant to discuss things on this site since it is breaking your oaths. Or are you saying that there are secrets, if that is the case then yes I agree, but not when it comes to what you guys do charity wise.


Originally posted by Trinityman

So at what point should Christian say yes this sounds like a great deal?

Or, at what point would a Christian say this is a terrible thing to do?


I would hope at the first instance of it conflicting with something that is in the written word of God.


Originally posted by Trinityman
Like I said at the beginning, I respect your opinion about freemasonry and your right to hold it. I just don't agree with it.


Yes we may never agree 100%, but you have a God given right to your beliefs as do I and I am not really trying to push my opinions on anyone, I am just trying to figure some of this stuff out myself.



posted on Jun, 29 2005 @ 06:13 AM
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While reading posts about compatibility between Christianity and Freemasonry I assumed that Christian learnings are like colledge degree and Freemasonry is practical application of Christian knowledge.

Am I mistaken in this assumption?

Any thoughts?

Thanx in advance.



posted on Jun, 29 2005 @ 09:16 AM
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Sorry I don't have any Rohipnol to offer you guys before your education like you're used to, but here comes a bit showing there IS a hierarchy in Freemasonry.
Don't let me from stopping you from reading the whole thing (That's your Worshipful Master's Job.)

www.freemasonry101.org.uk...

Fancy a bit more...try this:
www.freemasonry101.org.uk...

Actually you can read the whole lot starting from the beginning really, and it has a full index and is structured in such a way to clearly demonstrate the hierarchy of Freemasonry.

After you have read anything you find interesting fell free to contribute back to the forum.


[edit on 29-6-2005 by MrNECROS]



posted on Jun, 29 2005 @ 10:23 AM
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I applaud you, and thank you, for raising the level of discourse on this thread. I used one of my "Way Above" votes for you. You're obviously a person of intelligence, integrity, and conviction. I do have a serious question for you. When someone accepts an office in a post of the American Legion or its Auxiliary, you take an oath that you are not a member of any organization opposed to our form of government. Would that be something you'd be unwilling to do in principle? I'm not trying to trap you or bait you, I'm just trying to understand.



posted on Jun, 29 2005 @ 12:14 PM
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Hi defcon5

Thanks for the well written reply, and your explanation of how you got to where you are.


Originally posted by defcon5
The problem is that the depth of questions that I can go into on things is going to cross into the areas where all masons refuse to go on the grounds of their oaths, and thus I can never truly get those questions answered.

I'll do my level best to answer any question you have.



Originally posted by Trinityman
All Christian freemasons are perfectly aware that salvation is only available through the Lord Jesus Christ. Freemasony says something like... "if your religion teaches salvation, you'd better pay attention to it's requirements".


If this is true and I were to wish to join would they wave my having to take an oath since I can only do so if commanded by the government such as being sworn into court?


I understand your reluctance to take an oath. Some people believe this is contrary to the laws of God but I am not one of them. My interpretation of that passage is different from yours.

But it is perhaps interesting to look at why an oath/vow/promise is undertaken in the first place? It must seem strange to the outside eye that freemasons will not disclose certain aspects of freemasonry when it is known to all and sundry that those very 'secrets' are on open display at one website or other.

The 'vows of fidelity' are a test of merit - a man's word is his bond. I will not disclose what I have promised not to, that applies equally to the masonic promise as to any other promise I make throughout life. There are terrible symbolic penalties outlined to a freemason, should they disclose the secret entrusted to them, the worst of which is to be branded a 'wilfully perjured individual, void of all moral worth' - this is far worse to an honorable man that any physical penalty.


For a bunch of men that downplay what the oath is you all seem to stand by them pretty strictly. This is the Number one reason that most Churches give for excommunicating masons.

I have promised what I have promised. If a man's word is of no value then of what value is he?

The misunderstanding of the oath, what it entails and exactly what freemasons are promising to do is possibly one of the number one frustrations for freemasons.


I never said that all I am concerned with is salvation, but it is important. Salvation is assured by the Grace of God through Faith, it is not based on works which would even include joining the masons. That does not mean that if I suspect something is wrong I should go ahead and do it anyway.

Sorry - I should have said 'one' not 'you'. I didn't mean you personally. No freemason, not a single solitary one, would believe that freemasonry gets you into heaven based on what they have learned in the lodge.



Originally posted by Trinityman
But freemasonry is a fraternity, not a religion...

That smells of Universalism, which while it may seem like a good thing from mans perspective is not something that comes from God. Again as I said above, something being true in this world now runs a close second to it being politically correct.

Perhaps you could expand on this, and what you understand by the term 'Universalism'


Universalism is about as politically correct as it gets, but show me where it says that as a Christian you’re supposed to be learning to adapt the Christian religion so that it conforms better with any other religions out there. This is the second main reason most Churches give for the excommunication of Masons.

There is no adaptation of the christian religion going on. Freemasonry is not a religion - it encourages its members to follow their own faith. In the case of Christians that would be Christianity.


Oh come on, every time the masons do charitable stuff we get to see a picture of 10 guys in fez’s standing in a line in front of some building/statue/whatever they just donated.

Well, I guess you yanks go in for that kind of stuff more than we do over here in the UK
. Trust me , theres a lot of quiet giving going on.



Originally posted by Trinityman
No. You are constantly told that the Bible (in your case) is the place where all the answers are, and that is the place to go to get them. The 'morality plays' are all based on stories from the Old Testament. Freemasonry is a framework -of itself it tells you nothing.

Yes this is a serious question I have on the subject. You can say this is not a religion, but why is so much if it pulling from religion? Also why have they chosen the people to glorify that they have from the bible?

Telling bible stories does not make something a religion itself, but it does rather lend credence to the argument that freemasonry is a supporter of religion.

As far as Hiram Abiff is concerned... it's a myth. Those events as described in the third degree never happened. The bare bones of the story of the building of King Solmons Temple was expanded to become the 'traditional' history of freemasonry.

The story is an allegorical tale of the fidelity of one man who refused to compromise his integrity, endured trials and tribulations and was eventually killed. Freemasonry teaches that these qualities are worthy in a man and are to be emulated. Personally I relate this story to the importance of maintaining one's faith and belief in Jesus, despite temptations to the contrary, and indeed there are some parallels between the mythical story of Hiram Abiff and the reality of the Christchild.

But each freemason is free to determine his own interpretion of the Hiramic legend


So why choose someone from the cursed line of Cain, rather then someone from the Godly line of Seth?

I think you're reading too much into it.


However, are you saying there is nothing secret in masonry? I think that we have all seen that you guys are reluctant to discuss things on this site since it is breaking your oaths. Or are you saying that there are secrets, if that is the case then yes I agree, but not when it comes to what you guys do charity wise.

Yes, there is a very small part of freemasonry that is secret; and a larger part that is private. But I sincerely hope that I am not coming across in any way elusive. I have answered all question put to me on this board about freemasonry to the best of my ability



Originally posted by Trinityman

So at what point should Christian say yes this sounds like a great deal?

Or, at what point would a Christian say this is a terrible thing to do?


I would hope at the first instance of it conflicting with something that is in the written word of God.

I have found nothing in freemasory that conflicts with my relationship with The Father or the Son. And yes, I have looked. But perhaps I recognise allegory in the Bible where others see only literal text, and maybe that is a difference between us.


I am just trying to figure some of this stuff out myself.

If I can help in any small way to develop your understanding of freemasonry to your own personal satisfaction then I will have not been wasting my time, and maybe we will both learn something.



posted on Jun, 29 2005 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by MrNECROS
Fancy a bit more...try this:


Oh... come look everybody. MrNecros is posting links to Freemasonry101.com. I've never seen him do that before.

No no ne no no. That's a first. Yes indeedie.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmm.




posted on Jun, 29 2005 @ 12:23 PM
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Ta briefly read your posts, I’m think’n that ya might be able ta help me. Your posts are good ta read, ‘n I find your passion doesn’t interfere with your message.

I have a place at the Grand Lodge of Colorado A.F. & A.M., ‘n can see myself as Grand Master of Colorado in about 10years. So, in some-peoples eyes, I’m guess’n, that I’m could be one of these “High’r-Ups”. (Show’n good faith towards acknowledg’n the topic)

For the longest time I, ‘n obviously others, have had a hard time understand’n the Christian vs. Mason views.
I have never understood what anyone is say’n when they say that “… Masons are anti-Christian…”, or that “…it (Freemasonry) is not compatible with Christianity…”. It probably sounds like I’m try’n ta bait you, but I assure you, I am in no way try’n ta trifle with your feel’ns. I’m sure that just as we can’t understand why others think that we are religious, it is equally as try’n for others ta understand why we say that we can’t be.

I try ta be a man of few words, ‘n when it comes ta posts that are triple quoted inside of quotes, ‘n run several pages long, I get… ah… distract’d. Hope’n ya can help me at least see your point of view (not that I would have ta agree with it, I just want ta see this point that so many have yell’d about).

Hopen ya could reply ta this (the shorter, the better) either here, or via U2U:


Am I the only one here that sees the direct conflict in these remarks? Is it not the job of a Religion to show you how to lead a better life and to prepare you for death. What is there to prepare for in death anyway but salvation, yet you claim they don’t teach that? So what is the magical thing that masonry can show me that is going to make my life or death better then my religion can, considering that they will not show me how to lead a Christian life, nor ensure my salvation?”
If ya see a child stand’n in a street, ya tell them that a car is coming, ‘n that if they move their life will be better for it. I don’t think that that could be construed into “religious Salvation”. Yet it is a valuable lessons that we teach kids. When a teenager takes a job, that teenager learns valuable lessons that teach them safety, ‘n help ta better themselves in life as well. I don’t think this is a form of religion either. OK, so they are not “Seek’n the light”… but in lodge is the same basic principle. “Joe’s sister just died, Maybe if we sent flowers, It might make him feel better.”; ”Somehow, Paul’s pigs got locked into the School Principles Office. If we all minded ta our possessions ‘n keep them locked up, it might help from others stuff gett’n damaged” This is indeed enlighten stuff, but not religions salvation?

So what is it I’m missing? Why do I just not get it?



posted on Jun, 29 2005 @ 02:49 PM
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Originally posted by Trinityman
No no ne no no. That's a first. Yes indeedie.

Please address the contents of the page, not the presenter.


mrnecros
www.freemasonry101.org.uk...

I don't understand, the page says stuff like 'a knight of the rose-croix shall be received into a body of the ancient and accepted rite, subordinate to his grade, with two stars and swords"

The stars and swords and such are what? Its in the context of a registry book, but that doesn't make sense.

It does look to me like its saying that there are subordinate and superior 'grades' or degrees or whatever. But is this saying that a person of a subordinate level has to listen to that 'higher' grade? Or rather that they merely should give them certain honours when they show up, such as a ceremony and the like?



posted on Jun, 29 2005 @ 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5
I am not the one with the twisted view of masonry or anything, but I think either your not a Christian, not very well trained as one, or have a twisted view...


Oh that's lovely, attack my faith. How small of you.



As far as the pagan stuff goes, you know very good and well to what I am referring. This is not the only thread you and I have discussed things in, and there was another one recently were the topic was similar and the relation to Pagan religions came up.


Just because Freemasonry has occult ORIGINS does not mean it is itself occult NOW. Christiantiy has occult and pagan origins, but is it now? There is NOTHING pagan that is presented to a candidate or to any other mason... nothing of the sort. Don't twist the explanations that I and other masons have given you.



The fact that you make this hair splitting distinction in the verbiage above tells me that if you were a Christian you are one that starts the second you hit the church door and stops once you hit the exit. That you containerize your life so from Sunday morning until 1200 I am a Christian, but the rest of the weekend I am an Upstanding Masonic Man. For real Christians that is not the way it works...


This conversation is NOT about me, my faith, my life or my beliefs!!! It is about Freemasonry and its compatibility with Christianity. DO NOT turn this into a conversation about me, I will not allow you to put me on the defensive! That is a troll tactic, and I hope you have more sense than that.



But riddle me this: as a Christian under what authority does this organization feel that it has the ability to instruct a Christian in morality beyond what he is instructed in the bible?


So you're saying that morality is religious in every aspect? That we have no sense of right and wrong outside of a religious context? That is absolutely absurd, and you know this. By your logic, what authority does the government have to tell us what is right and wrong in the eyes of the law?

Or what authority does a parent have to punish his child for doing something wrong?

EVERY person, religious or not, has a sense of right and wrong. It is not completely up to religion to define this. We as humans are born with a sense of moderation and morality, it is not instilled in us by religion alone. Freemasonry does not supercede in Christianity's instruction of religion, but to say that religion is the ONLY institution that can teach morals is absurd.



And as a Christian why should I feel that they have the Authority to supersede the instruction that the bible gives, or to even add to or expound upon it?


So your saying that you, as a person cannot teach your kids morality? They can only learn that within church? Don't be so naive. Freemasonry's moral lessons don't contradict Christianity's in ANY way. Freemasonry teaches the same moral lessons ANY institution teaches, whether it be religion, school, or parents. As Christians we are NOT restricted to where we can derive our morals from. As long as they coincide with what the Bible teaches, there is no problem whatsoever.



So again considering that morality is dealing with the distinction between good and evil, and that they feel qualified to teach morality from some secret knowledge that masonry holds, how is this anything less then “Knowledge of Good and Evil” by definition?


Secret knowledge??? What are you talking about?!? Freemasonry teaches THE OBVIOUS, just like parents teach their kids obvious morals that we have all been instilled with. You don't need to have some secret knowledge to teach honor, truth, justice, charity, faith and love.


[edit on 29-6-2005 by sebatwerk]





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