Can Evolution be proven? or is it just a theory/religion?

Personally I don’t take the Bible literally all the way through, specially the Old Testament. I am a Christian that follows the teachings of Christ found in the New Testament. It’s funny that when someone wants to discredit Christianity they always attack the Old Testament and ignore the words and life of Jesus.

At any rate…

I have a modern scientific view of the universe but I believe God was the creator and set everything in motion.

Originally posted by expert999
thanks kill lizard, I agree.

people often take the bible out of context. and then come to the wrong conclusion. and thats why they think that the bible is wrong.

you know if you read the first couple of chapters of the bible really well, and read it a few times. you would understand why the earth is the was it is now. and you would also understand how the universe was made. and you would also understand how the flood occured, and you would understand how there was a canopy of water above that atmosphere, probably suspended by the magnetic field by what is called the meisner effect. supercold water is magnetic.

this would block all the radiation except for visible light. and it would also compress the air to a higher density and the oxygen level would be higher. basically, you would have hyperbaric conditions.

if you had hyperbaric conditions, you would get dinosaurs.

im telling you, if you read the first few chapters of Genesis, you would understand a lot of things. be sure that you understand it though...

Expert, I was at one time a practicing Christian, and I am exceedingly familiar with the Bible, and furthermore, I understand the Bible. I am an able individual, quite capable of deciphering obscure teachings of old.

This thread isn't the place for it, but if you make the thread, I will engage you in a conversation about Biblical contradiction and errancy.

Zip



[edit on 6/29/2005 by Zipdot]

Originally posted by kinglizard
It’s funny that when someone wants to discredit Christianity they always attack the Old Testament and ignore the words and life of Jesus.

Maybe because Jesus was a jew and the OT is an integral part of the bible, plus Jesus himself had said literally he had come not to abolish the laws and the prophets but to fulfill them.

Originally posted by expert999
I did click on it, and I looked at some, but are these ones that you are concerned about? probably not... unless you now every single one on that site. now how about you give me these so called contradictions and I will help you to understand.

Help me understand how this is somehow not a contradiction:


Gen.1:25-27 (Humans were created after the other animals.) And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.

VERSUS

Gen.2:18-19 (Humans were created before the other animals.) And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

And that is just ONE.

Why would you want to believe you came from nasty old apes or some stupid thing like that?
Even if I didnt believe in God the whole ape to man thing is so stupid it just makes me mad.
Coming from a great powerful being sounds so much better so just use your imagination unless you boring and brainwashed...Then that sucks for you.
Think what God must feel when his children say they came from apes LOL!!!! God isnt too nice either so you go tell him we came from apes and see what happens.

Originally posted by Wisdumb
Why would you want to believe you came from nasty old apes or some stupid thing like that?

"Thats stupid' is your entire argument? :shk:
'Want' has nothing to do with fact.. and no-one has said we come from apes. We share a common ancestary with apes along with other primates [as proven with dna].

the only proof of DNA is that they are close to being the same. doesnt mean we came from a common ancestar. its probably because we have a common designer.
the same person decided that he was going to use a pretty complex process for cell growth and reproduction.

if apes and humans and primates have a common ancestar, then information would be gained through the gene code, and today we should be able to mate with them and produce offspring. sounds sick, but who is to say its wrong. I mean if we all came from a big bang. you dont know what is right and wrong. you have to decide how you decide. but if the bible is right, then we have a standard. and we know where we came from. and we know why we are here.

evolution cant really answer those questions

who am I and what am I worth?
where did I come from?
whats the purpose of life?
where am I going when I die?

ill bet that all the answers from an evolutionists view will be negative.

Originally posted by expert999
the only proof of DNA is that they are close to being the same. doesnt mean we came from a common ancestar. its probably because we have a common designer.

Thats like saying that a kid who has the same eyes as his mother got them from 'god' and not her genes.. could you give me something actually credible other than a 'Godunnit'?

if apes and humans and primates have a common ancestor, then information would be gained through the gene code, and today we should be able to mate with them and produce offspring. sounds sick, but who is to say its wrong.

They share genetic similarities but are not the same species.. no we could not naturally reproduce with other primates and I see no scientific reason for cross breeding with them artificially either. As we are trying to ensure our own genetic survival, breeding with other less evolved primates would detract from ourselves which is probably why humans developed the innate repulsion to copulating with apes etc the further apart we evolved.

I mean if we all came from a big bang. you dont know what is right and wrong. you have to decide how you decide. but if the bible is right, then we have a standard. and we know where we came from. and we know why we are here.

I've read the bible.. I found it extreamily immoral, violent and distructive.. but morality isn't exactly relevent to human evolution.

evolution cant really answer those questions

Actually [well science] can. We are a social species and therefore co-dependent. If we murdered eachother just because we 'could'.. without regard for whether we needed those people.. we woudn't exist. Religion does not provide morals.. they a neccesary to ensure productive and peaceful communities.

who am I and what am I worth?
where did I come from?
whats the purpose of life?
where am I going when I die?

ill bet that all the answers from an evolutionists view will be negative.

Yet you draw a negative conclusion about how evolutionists percieve life? Sounds like you have a pretty negative view of everyone who isn't you. I am not so insecure about my own existence that I need to even ask those questions.. my self worth is not dependent on being 'special' to something that is completely dependent on human imagination [faith] to exist.

[edit on 30-6-2005 by riley]

Originally posted by expert999
evolution cant really answer those questions

who am I and what am I worth?
where did I come from?
whats the purpose of life?
where am I going when I die?

ill bet that all the answers from an evolutionists view will be negative.

Science can give you a better explanation that religion on the question where you came from. It also tells you after you die, you decay with a speed depending on temperature, moisture and other variables. On the question who you are and what you're worth, or what the purpose of life is, religion also has no conclusive answer for you.

And you also might want to drop your very bad habit of never ever addressing a good counterargument. How about the contradiction I gave you from Genesis for starters?

[edit on 30-6-2005 by Simon666]

evolution cant really answer those questions

who am I and what am I worth?
where did I come from?
whats the purpose of life?
where am I going when I die?

ill bet that all the answers from an evolutionists view will be negative.

No that would require philosophy, not science. Science does not attempt to understand those things. You clearly have little grasp on what science is, despite people posting definitions for you.

Your entire reply to my two posts were, "explain it to me more"? Where do I start?

For a start what is tought in school is that evolution is fact because it is, that is not to say Darwins theory of evolution is 100% correct. I think it is flawed in many ways but it was the best theory we had at the time. You ask fro proof and evidence and despite ALL empirical evidence to support evolution you prefer to believe a fairy tale with zero evidence. And I am amazed that there are fools that call a theory backed up by empirical evidence a "fairy tale" but believe a deity created everything for some unknown untold "divine plan". Star Trek had better stories.

As for an alternative view of evolution, the version I believe... I honestly don't think you will be able to grasp it. You have a closed mind, one that does not question the unknown. you do not say to yourself "I can not possible know this for a fact but I can investigate it and decide what is most likely". because if you could you would not need us to point out how ridiculous the bible is in many places. I am also anoyed at the defense of the bible based on our critique of ther old testament. Is that not the exact word of god to you people? Isn't the new testament the recollection of man and not god? I thought only the old was the perfect word of god handed down? Isn't it made clear that the New testament is the worlds of man?

Do you not have problem with the fact that what is in the New Testament was decided by a roman emperor that by all acounts was a pagan? And that after he made the final edite and decided what made the cut he had all other godpels destroyed, and killed anyone who disagreed with his choices as a heretic? Is that a realible way to start a religion? Was your god working through him to kill al those Christians because they believed in different gospels? Are you even aware who wrote those gospels?

And most importantly we are talking about CREATIONISM Vs EVOLUTION! Creationism comes from the OT!!! That's why we are attacking it's flaws.

As for explaining an alternative view of evolution, I will do that but as you can't read long posts I will post it in my next posts. I have to go out shortly so I will do it later in detail. I will have to get into a mixture of science and philosophy in that post in order to show you that the questions you posed do not have negative answers just because they don't relate to the christian god.

BUT be warned it is a complex and it will be a long post! But to prep you for it, please consider this -

Imagine for a moment that your god does not exist (for the sake of discussion).

Let's presume the universe IS infinite. Now if there are an infinite amount of possibilities then how likely is something that has a 1 in a million billion chance of happening in an infinite amount of time and space?

I'm sure you are smart enough to know that a 1 in a 100 chance will pretty much always happens when given a billion chances to happen. So no matter how small a possability is, given an infinite amount of chances the possibility of NOT happening drops to zero.

Now consider the version of evolution you were tought. You doubt it because you find it very unlikely? But to say it definatly did not happen is to say the universe is not infinite.

But if something is infinite then all things are, so if nothing is infinite, then neither is god.

Unless of course you believe that god holds magical powers that do not have to apply to the laws of logic. If that is the case then any arguement no matter how solid of fact is never going to convinve your belief in something that defies logic. The death of logic is the death of sanity.

i will explain my belief in detail when I get a chance, even though I fear you will skip most of it just like it appears you skipped most of my last two posts (all the first one as far as I can tell).

Let me finish this post with a quote of myself (is that egotistical)


"The question should never have been "is there a god?", the question should have been "what is god"? The first question has no meaning before the second is answered."

EDIT - Damn spelling mistakes

[edit on 30-6-2005 by parabolee]

How can people even believe in creationism? It defies and breaks the laws of nature and the laws that we are used to. There is more proof for evolution then there will ever be for creationism.
If you believe that we were created from a man and his rib and that the earth was created in 7 days then you have got some learning to do.




West Point

How can people even believe in creationism? It defies and breaks the laws of nature and the laws that we are used to. There is more proof for evolution then there will ever be for creationism.

what laws does it break?
if creation is true, then God can make the universe in six days not 7, he rested on the 7th day. 7 seventh day is for rest, thats why God mentions that he rests on the 7th day.
there is no proof for evolution. if you think there is, let me see it. if you can show me that there is proof, and the proof be real. I will believe in your theory.
how bout that?

but there is a lot of evidence today that can prove that there was a great flood in the days of noah that covered the entire earth, if you want that ill give it to you. but first let me here your proof.

if you want. ill even discuss this with you in a U2U. to get away from everyone else who may try to twist things around.

i believe in the bible, and its never been proven wrong. until you can prove it wrong, I will believe in it. and I will do what it says and try to get other to believe in it.

and, those questions I posted earlier are not for evolutionists only. they are for creationists as well and for other religions. but they answers come out to be very different between evolution and creation.

like i said before there is no proof for evoution.
if you think you have some, go ahead and show me.
im willing to look at it.
but its probably altered to look like its evidence for evolution. like most things are.
the bible has not changed one bit. the evolution theory has changed quite a bit. I mean the age of the earth, according to the evolution theory, has changed a lot over the past 150 years. it went from like 70,000 to like what is it now? 5 billion years old.

you cant prove evolution, ill bet my life on it

What is the point of a debate if you ignore all the arguements that you don't like. I have now made three posts that you have bareky even acknowledged. I am not going to spend 20 minutes typing out an explanation that you won't even read.


as for your other comments- what is "proof"? There is a huge amount of empirical evidence that in science is considered proof. There is virtually no empirical evidence in the words of the bible other than some of the people in it probably existed. There is no empirical evidence that supports creationism at all. But like I said, your entire responce to my points has been "tell me more" or "show me proof".

I say to you what proof do you have of creationism? you have faith but not proof.

Read and respond to my earlier posts first I took a decent amount of time to make some very important points that you have refused to address at all.


[edit on 30-6-2005 by parabolee]

Expert, you asked for a Biblical contradiction and were given one. If you merely missed seeing it inadvertantly, well, it's up a couple posts - go check it out. Otherwise, rather than ignoring it, would you please either refute it or tell us why you don't want to discuss it?

Thanks,
Zip

Originally posted by expert999
like i said before there is no proof for evoution.
if you think you have some, go ahead and show me.
im willing to look at it.
but its probably altered to look like its evidence for evolution.

See.. you've already discredited all evidence before you've supposedly even been given in by saying it's probably been altered.. so NO.. you are not willing to look at it and take it seriously.. by your own admission you already intend to dismiss it.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
How can people even believe in creationism? It defies and breaks the laws of nature and the laws that we are used to. There is more proof for evolution then there will ever be for creationism.
If you believe that we were created from a man and his rib and that the earth was created in 7 days then you have got some learning to do.




West Point

Creationism is not the same as christianity.
A lot of people believe in Creationism, and for a good reason.
Believing in Creationism makes more sense than belieiving in the big bang theory.

It all started somewhere, something "started" our universe, life etc.
If you deny that something (an entity, an event) started our universe you believe that the primal parts of our universe have always existed.


[edit on 30-6-2005 by Jakko]

It all started somewhere, something "started" our universe, life etc.
If you denie that something (an entity, an event) started our universe you believe that the primal parts of our universe have always existed.

Incorrect, another person projecting onto others. That is not something that is required to believe to disagree with creationism at all.

Again let me quote Albert Einstein who did not believe in creationism -

"People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."

Note how that does not require a belief that "It all started somewhere, something "started" our universe, life etc."

Serious philosophers and scientists agree (believe) that there is no such thing as "the beginning of time". Go see my long post on this on page 10. There is no need for me to repeat it all.

[edit on 30-6-2005 by parabolee]

Originally posted by expert999
but dont make it too long because if you havent noticed, IU dont really like reading. so if you give me a long post. im not going to read it in detail I will simply skim through it and pick at it.

This is exactly why you are not 'getting it.' And if you don't like reading, then why do you bother to post on this site other than to argue your religious beliefs?

You're wasting people's time because you need a soap-box to spout your anti-evolution religious agenda. Get off of your soap box and study your 'enemy' evolution before attacking it blindly and without merit simply because it does not match your beliefs.

There. Is that short enough for you?

Originally posted by parabolee

Again let me quote Albert Einstein who did not believe in creationism -

"People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."

Note how that does not require a belief that "It all started somewhere, something "started" our universe, life etc."

Oh and Mr Einstein knows it all now?
That Mr Einstein thinks that relativity regarding time is a good reason to call the distinction between past present and future a stubbornly persistent illusion is good for him, but why should I agree with that?
We live and die inside time, making any statements about a beginning or end of time are a waste of time.

Serious philosophers and scientists agree (believe) that there is no such thing as "the beginning of time". Go see my long post on this on page 10. There is no need for me to repeat it all.

[edit on 30-6-2005 by parabolee]

I am not talking about a beginning of time, I am talking about a begin period.

The assumption that time as we know it, or matter as we know it, have always existed, makes just as much sense as the assumption that there was "something" that set it all in motion, that "triggered" the creation of time, matter and eventually life.

Oh and Mr Einstein knows it all now?
That Mr Einstein thinks that relativity regarding time is a good reason to call the distinction between past present and future a stubbornly persistent illusion is good for him, but why should I agree with that?
We live and die inside time, making any statements about a beginning or end of time are a waste of time.

Why should you agree? I didn't say you should. I said that someone who does not believe in creationism does not have to believe in a beginning of something.

We don't "die inside time" at all. That presumes there is an outside of time. Time is not what you think it is. Time and space are the same thing. I know it's complex and that is why people prefer to not think about it or believe "fairy tales'" about a man in the sky.

I am not talking about a beginning of time, I am talking about a begin period.

The assumption that time as we know it, or matter as we know it, have always existed, makes just as much sense as the assumption that there was "something" that set it all in motion, that "triggered" the creation of time, matter and eventually life.

If there was a beginning as you put how do you explain the beginning of god? Did god always exist? How is that less stupid than the universe always existing? unless agin god does not adhere to logic because he has special magic powers. Agian that makes any logical arguement made to you pointless because your beleif does not require logic, so you can never be wrong because anything you can't explain is explained by magic.


I'm sorry but you are wrong on this one, I ask that you take some time (no pun) to sit down and realy think this through. I ask that you go back to my post on page 10 and read it and think about what I am saying. In all honesty having thought about it in depth for years I see no possible explanation other than existence is perminent. There was no time before time, there can never be an end of time.

How long was it before time untill time came about? How can there be ANY amount of time before time?

If time ended would there be an amount of time after. For example once time as ended will god be able to think "it's been X amount of time since the end of time".

To put it another way -

Where does the past go?
Where does the future come from?
How long does the present last?

These are the type of questions philosophers have contemplated since we were evolved enough to grasp the concepts.


[edit on 30-6-2005 by parabolee]