Well flying something different to the Stonage Tornado will make the RAF boys get exited , but its not going to make Britain any better

Oh dear god......

The Tornado is the fastest low-level attack jet going and one of the best. Old it might be, but more than capable. For christs sake, 80% of the USAF uses planes designed in the 60-70's...

Plus, we're building the JSF with the Yanks, so that should keep you happy.

Heard of HALO?...thought not.

Other Countries have developed better aircraft that are more modern and can easily defeat the EEC fighter

Don't know what this "EEC" fighter is, but I assume you mean the Typhoon. What other countries are these? The US? Only people I can think of that have any planes that could touch the Typhoon.

still not in service.

LOL.... It's in service. December 2003 is when we took the first deliveries.

How many countries have the Eurofighter in active service?

How many countries have the Eurofighter in active service?

4

Germany in August 2003, Spanish in Sept 2003, UK in Dec 2003 and the Italians in Feb 2004.

Originally posted by Bulldog 52
How many countries have the Eurofighter in active service?

These are the production scales...
232 for the UK 37%
180 for Germany 30%
121 for Italy 19%
87 for Spain 14%

Ok, An Australian reviewer is LESS biased as they don't have their own 3rd generation fighter to 'big up' and no real reason to favour American or European systems for anything other than the qualities of the aforementioned system. Certainly this reviewer covers all the available technical data with an even eye.

Fair 'dinkum, as they might say....

I think we wasted our billions of Euoros developing this lame duck , better if we bought the latest American aircraft if they let us have it.

Originally posted by Catechista
Ok, An Australian reviewer is LESS biased as they don't have their own 3rd generation fighter to 'big up' and no real reason to favour American or European systems for anything other than the qualities of the aforementioned system. Certainly this reviewer covers all the available technical data with an even eye.

Fair 'dinkum, as they might say....

The austriallians mainly use US tech, as far as I have seen.

Originally posted by Bulldog 52
I think we wasted our billions of Euoros developing this lame duck , better if we bought the latest American aircraft if they let us have it.

What latest aircraft?
The JSF?
We are already buying that..
The F-18?
What use would they be?
The F-22?
Not allowed the US wont part with it...


[edit on 26/02/2005 by devilwasp]

What, the F-22?

It has it's fair share of problems too. Many software bugs are causing issues now, plus it costs a #e load.

Originally posted by Bulldog 52
I think we wasted our billions of Euoros developing this lame duck , better if we bought the latest American aircraft if they let us have it.

Yes. that way we can pay the Americans to do ALL our fighting and ALL our thinking too! What would Europe's collective defence agencies have left of any value if they became subsiduaries of America Inc.? Certainly not the skills, facilities or personnel to develop any warplanes ever again. even lame duck ones.

Yes. that way we can pay the Americans to do ALL our fighting and ALL our thinking too! What would Europe's collective defence agencies have left of any value if they became subsiduaries of America Inc.? Certainly not the skills, facilities or personnel to develop any warplanes ever again. even lame duck ones.

Yup. No matter what some may think of the Typhoon, at least we have our own Aviation industry and don't have to ask the Yanks for their hand me downs (no offense to the Aussies meant)

Honestly the UK should be proud of the military it has....

The eurofighter is nothing to sneeze at
Your army just plain rocks!!

Overall even though your forces are tiny compared to the american juggernaut overall your level of professionalism and equipment is quite good. and hey at least your typhoons don't have in flight computer crashes.

Originally posted by stumason
Yup. No matter what some may think of the Typhoon, at least we have our own Aviation industry and don't have to ask the Yanks for their hand me downs (no offense to the Aussies meant)

Yay! Lets hear it for the 2nd best Airplane makers in the world. Honestly, the ability to produce a plane as good as the Eurofighter is a massive asset to Europe. It's easy to forget that when faced with the shiny new tech America have. The UK are lucky to have access to both (going back to topic).

And there's always the next generation of weapons to build......

Originally posted by Bulldog 52
Well flying something different to the Stonage Tornado will make the RAF boys get exited , but its not going to make Britain any better. Other Countries have developed better aircraft that are more modern and can easily defeat the EEC fighter that was planned how many years ago and still not in service.If i was in charge id scrap it as being to old.

The be fair, I REALLY have to murder that statement, the Tornado F3 ADV very long range BVR fighter designed to kill bomber yes it is no dog fighter but still very good at it's role.

The Tornado GR4 maybe to best low level strike plane in the world, with the Storm Shadow it has a strike range of about 300km ish, thats right we only got like 500 / 1000 missiles but loads on order.

The typhoon has a gun and even has rounds its the same gun as the tornado so yes have some rounds floating around.

We now have the ASTOR radar system, trident, tomahawks, etc etc.

So we are getting rid of 3ships (replacements on order), 80 or so jags (if you think that the Tornado is (STONAGE) check this out. The current force of shine new GR4's is around 100 plane and that could increase very quickly if needed.

The Navy and Army are pushed but again, we are more than able to sort things out when push come to shove!

O and tonys MAD if we are losing we will just light you UP! TRIDENT

RAB

The F/A-22 glitches are not anything new, every new platform has glitches before it goes into service. The USAF and Lockheed martin will have them worked out and probably already do before the Raptor enters service later this year.

Bulldog also have to say this too:

Typhoon buying 232 active force 137, rest spares
Tornado GR4 active force 90 and 70 to 80 spare new GR1's (Spare)
The F35 buying 150 active force 100 (50 spare) Same level as the Harrier

that's active force of 327 without going it to the full production levels and the other stuff that could be used.

Not counting the Nimrods, the Hawks and one or two other little things :-)

RAB

Well, minbe was the first reply in this thread and it was quite heated too but I have to say Bulldog 52 (?) has the worst grip on the state of play with the UK military since Duncan Sandys in 1957!

The Tornado, Typhoon, Nimrod, F-35 et al are just fine at what they do, the Typhoon is bested in A2A combat only by the Raptor, the Tornado, as far as low level high speed bomb trucks go, is bested by nothing as it is faster and far more comfortable (ie less tiring for its crews) than any other aircraft operating in that role. Criticism of an aircraft operating outside its design role (ie Tornado GR.4 at high altitude or Tornado F.3 in a dogfight maybe) is ridiculous anyway.

My mega-whinge at the beginning of this thread relates more to how our air defence squadrons (only four of them but with more than 20 planes at least) are overstretched, especially when you consider how part of even this meagre strength is postedf overseas on a regular basis, there should be no less than 7 or 8 dedicated A2A squadrons in the RAF at any one time, the acceptance of the truth of this was why 74 squadron was reformed on 2nd hand ex-USN F-4J Phantoms in the mid 80's (after the original plan to use Lighnings was shelved). Yet now we have only half the number of dedicated fighters that effective UK coverage demands.

My rant about the Sea Harrier was directed solely at the fact that we have repeated the same mistake for what is now the third time, the removal of indegenous fleet air defence capability. We did it in 1918 but WW2 taught us the error of that, we did it again in 1978 when the RN had to then wait for its Sea Harriers and now we are making the navy go without ANY air defenbe capability AT ALL for maybe the next nine years. The RAF Harrier GR.9 force will be deployed at sea during this time but it has no BVR capability, indeed no A2A radar of any kind! Neither can it fire the AIM 120 missile and if any Falklandesque situation arose today we would be well and truly shagged. It is this 'short term financial gain' mentality that winds me up.

Sadly Bulldog 52's attitude is not unique.

Plenty of uninformed people in the UK (fed mainly by our 'newspapers' like the Telegraph and Mail) would simply destroy the technological base of the UK & Europe and frankly traitor this country to the USA.
(which is how come Americans in the industry just love winding these people up to go bashing their own.)

The criticism of the UK's kit (just because it doesn't quite match - in some respects - the very latest US stuff) is highly selective, very simplistic and to be honest quite absurd.
The only country we are 2nd best to in equipment is the USA (and even then it is only when comparing certain aspects of that kit. ie a Tornado GR4 can do things an F15e can only dream about.....and it costs a damned sight less).

Pretending that on an overall basis our own kit is expensive is just untrue.
Compare the cost of a Typhoon with an F22.
Then factor in the other costs of a destroyed aero industry.
There is no comparison; which is why govs of all colours in the UK (even anti-EU tory ones) have all kept in with the various projects we have been involved in.
So no thanks, been there almost let the Americans pull that one off before not going to have it repeated thank you very much.

It always amazes me that our 'armchair' experts are so quick to knock the defence review people (ie the best and most knowledgable international experts money can buy) just cos for some weird reason they imagine we 'need' to spend fortunes buying 2 or 3 times the current numbers and American.

Thankfully saner and more sober assessments are made.

The whole point about collaborative projects is that we get to afford something we could not afford alone.

We get to maintain a cutting edge technological base (in engine tech, flight computers, construction techniques, construction materials etc etc) we would lose were we to simply buy American (if we were lucky we might keep our 'fitting skills'; screwing together US product).

No thanks.

Can any European tell me the future of the European Union.

Will they try to elect a new constitution?
Will the EU make a one military (simliar to the EuroCorps but larger)
and do they plan to become a future superpower (if they can relieve themselves of debt) Thankyou in advance

Originally posted by Bulldog 52
It is out of date and I'm embarrassed by the fact that this is seen as cutting edge tech, Ive not seen one flying over Britain yet. This is Europe at its best , make something among ourselves that costs a fortune that doesn't work.

Try looking out of my study window any day of the week.........we've had two OpEval squadrons based at BAe Warton for quite a while, although one has now move to its operational base and the other will follow shortly. When 'planes cost that much, you tend to want to iron out the bugs first and train the instructors who will in turn train the operational jocks. What better way to do that than to have the 'planes supported by the people who built them. That's Case White....

Originally posted by evanfitz
Can any European tell me the future of the European Union.

- Wow, yeah let's hear it.....anyone?
....and if any future-readers could also let me have this weeks lottery numbers too I'd be grateful!

Will they try to elect a new constitution?

- Er, no.
I can't see a 'constitution' ever being 'elected' in the EU; but, we might vote to accept a revised treaty.

Will the EU make a one military (simliar to the EuroCorps but larger)

- I doubt it, why would we?

and do they plan to become a future superpower

- We already are a 'super-power'.
An economic super-power.

we're quite happy to let the US carry on in it's pointless competing with itself as the world's only military 'super-power'.

(if they can relieve themselves of debt)

- If you are American I'd suggest you attend to you own record personal debt problems before pointing fingers at Europe.

......and attend to your governments record debt and deficit spending.

......and attend to your own trade gap whilst you're at it.

Thankyou in advance

- Naaaaa what's to thank for?
Another tedious pissing/wang contest?



[edit on 18-6-2005 by sminkeypinkey]